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1975-1985 Domestics---the Doomed Decade?
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in Chevrolet
My friend called me up yesterday to complain that he has been unable to junk a '79 Seville. He claimed the wrecking yards would not accept cars of that vintage.
I was a bit surprised so I called up three yards in my area, and sure enough, none of them were very anxious to go pick up the car for free. The word was that 1975-85 domestics are not worth the yard space for parting out, and that there is very little demand for parts for them. One guy told me he even refused an '82 kind of stripped (stolen) and rough Corvette C4.
If this is true, then these cars are quite doomed, since there will be no parts for those people who might want to save the one they have.
When I stopped to think about it, the junkyards' position makes perfect sense from a business point of view. Very few folks are saving and restoring these cars, so parts demand is very low. Since the wrecking yards are now falling under more regulations regarding disposal of fluids and size of yards and how they can be stored/stacked, it seems logical that you arent' going to keep just any old thing in your yard.
I feel this position by the wrecking yard also accurately reflects the low value of these years of domestics in the collector car market.
By the way, the yards also are not much interested in early Japanese cars or trucks. They still like pre 1975 domestics though.
I was a bit surprised so I called up three yards in my area, and sure enough, none of them were very anxious to go pick up the car for free. The word was that 1975-85 domestics are not worth the yard space for parting out, and that there is very little demand for parts for them. One guy told me he even refused an '82 kind of stripped (stolen) and rough Corvette C4.
If this is true, then these cars are quite doomed, since there will be no parts for those people who might want to save the one they have.
When I stopped to think about it, the junkyards' position makes perfect sense from a business point of view. Very few folks are saving and restoring these cars, so parts demand is very low. Since the wrecking yards are now falling under more regulations regarding disposal of fluids and size of yards and how they can be stored/stacked, it seems logical that you arent' going to keep just any old thing in your yard.
I feel this position by the wrecking yard also accurately reflects the low value of these years of domestics in the collector car market.
By the way, the yards also are not much interested in early Japanese cars or trucks. They still like pre 1975 domestics though.
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My godfather's cars during that time were a '78 Olds Cutlass, '84 Olds Omega, and '85 Buick Century. All junk. My best friend's parents had a '78 Chevy 4x4 pickup and an '82 Ford Club Wagon. They were junk, too, because they both rusted out and aged at a pretty fast rate. I remember these things because we all lived in the same neighborhood. But my former next-door neighbors had the ultimate in junk: they owned a '77 Vega hatchback and an early '80 Citation. As far back as I can remember, these cars were so crappy that it wasn't funny at all.
What kind of junkyards are you dealing with? They must be the more urban variety, that stock mainly late-model wrecks, rather than old cars that were just junked because of age. I have no trouble finding loads of '70s and '80s full-size GM cars in rural you-pull-it junkyards when I need parts for my 1986 Parisienne. I once found a Parisienne that was absolutely identical to mine except for the color. But you're probably right that the survival rate for 1975 and newer vehicles will be surprisingly low. I think the ones most likely to survive are those that were owned for their first 15 years by old people who rarely drove them. Both my Parisienne and my brother's 1977 Celica have that sort of history.
-Andrew L
As for Ford and GM cars, they still had a fair share of '70's and '80's cars. Mainly downsized ones. Not too many big '71-76 GMs or '73-78 generation Fords. They used to get a lot of these cars in, but I think it finally got to the point that most of these cars are past their peak, as far as the mass exodus to the junkyard is concerned. Most of the ones that were going to get wrecked or die from a mechanical failure probably did years ago, and the rest are either meticulously maintained, or nickeling and diming their owners to death as we speak.
We did have a situation back in '94 though, when some friends of mine wanted to get rid of a '76 Hornet wagon. It still ran fine and looked pretty good, although it leaked oil from a broken valve cover bolt. They just wanted to get rid of it...even if they didn't get anything for it. But when they called around, none of the junkyards would even take it for nothing! I think they even offered to pay, and one junkyard just said "we don't have a need for that type of car". Finally, we made a 90 mile trip down south of Culpeper VA, to a huge junkyard, in the hopes that he'd take it. He gave them $90.00 for it, mainly because it had new tires.
Modern wreckers aren't like the old mom and pop yards, they are often computerized, have hot-lines, and a good business sense. I certainly understand their reluctance to keep 75-85 domestics if there is no demand for parts.
Specializing helps, but if you do specialize you need to publicize a lot to gather business from a wide area.
Lance--It really wouldn't pay to ship a post 75 car to the midwest, and they aren't worth enough for anybody to come out and get one here, seems to me. If it was, it would be a booming business, but it ain't, so it' ain't.
But the Seville will go to the recycler, so that's something. More steel for new Mustangs or whatever.
The "real" wrecking yards are good for body shops and stuff, but they're so expensive! I would rather drive to Nowhere, Pennsylvania and get a fender for $15 than pay $60 at a local yard. The old-fashioned rural yards have been extremely helpful in restoring my brother's 1977 Celica. We were able to get a hood, a bumper, a headlight assembly and various trim parts for a grand total of $65 at one such yard. By the way, the Celica is coming along well...all its mechanical work is done, so it's fully roadworthy. We have cleaned out the interior and replaced the dash pad and floor mats, and the front-end body work is done. All that remains is to fix rust on the doors and rear quarters, and get it painted. If it weren't for cheap junkyards, this project would have cost big money. I think each variety of junkyard has its usefulness.
-Andrew L
Junkyards are dying out at a pretty fast clip. Only the smart ones are going to survive.
You know, business life is cruel. Maybe it sounds hard-assed to say "get rid of all our 1975s-85s, they aren't making money", but that's what it takes to do business apparently, these days. One yard I spoke to said he was in business since 1960. In his immediate area, he is the last of 25 yards. And he is in a very industrial area, Richmond, Calif. It's not a pretty landscape, so the issue isn't environmental. The issue is that he kept up with trends and changes.
He actually has a bunch of old cars, but they are 50s-60s cars he is selling complete, as "builders". I think they are piles of junk myself, but he seems to think someone is really going to come in and buy a bombed-out 68 Chevelle 4-door. Lotsa luck, pal.
I think if any yards continue to carry 75-85 cars it will be these "pick a part" type yards, which are generally utilized by less affluent folks who are just trying to keep old crates running. So maybe that type of operation can make such inventory work for them.
But, to get back to the topic at hand, the period of 1975-1985, was probably not the best period for American vehicle innovation or design.
The X bodied GM products with brakes that locked up too early, rusted out or with Cadillac selling a badge engineered Cavalier, certainly weren't great achievements by any measure. And, they weren't alone.
Chrysler finances were shaky and on the road to bankruptcy and they didn't help themselves by continuing to build the Valiant and Dart with worn out body dies. The result was water leaks everywhere, rust, and even worse quality control than earlier models. The replacement Volare and Aspen had transverse torsion bars in the frnt suspension with the frnt shocks placed at a 90 degree angle to the torsion bar and control arms, right next to the subframe! It was the only car I could ever remember driving that if you didn't have the frnt shocks installed, you wouldn't know it! (I know, I tried it///) It does not take an engineer to tell you that a shock should be placed where the suspension would have the most travel!
Ford and AMC didn't do any thing helpful either. The revised 1974 AMC Matador/Ambassador (sedans)looked nose heavy and ugly with the revised frnt end and really needed a new body shell, not a revision to the 1967 body. Ford
built the "all new" Granda on the Maverick platform and later added an ES "European Sport" sedan with blackout grill, but little else in the area of performance or comfort.
It would be fair to say, as our host as previous stated, that during this period of American automotive history, we did not create a legend in our own time (1975-1985)....And, beginning with the 1974 fuel crisis, the Japanese, began to gain a foothold in the American market. By the way, the Europeans, weren't much better, at least at first. Both VW and BMW built machines that certainly were not very good mechanically at least during the 70's. Remember the VW Rabbit with the complicated 2 bbl Solex; the BMW Bavaria with dual carbs, worthless ZF automatic and leaky power steering? So, you see that doubtful engineering and design wasn't just limited to American car makers...And, don't forget FIAT and the machines they built....
-Andrew L
I'm very familiar with Richmond and East Palo Alto..hardly the garden spots of the Bay Area....keep your head down...still they have to be very smart to stay in business.
In another thread I think I started here I mused about the old time junkyards and how they had changed.
Here in the Seattle area on the Eastside we have a chain of wrecking yards, owned by the same people. The place is almost sterile it's so clean and organized. The prices (I think) are NUTS!! They seem to know exactly how much they can charge before the customers just buy a new part instead.
But...they seem to be thriving!
The reason the Seville is so hard to unload is that it is a bit shabby. If it were really nice, near mint, , maybe you could still get $2,000 for it.
The Eldo has been priced at various levels, with no luck... I'd guess that someone will bite around $5,000, if the charity has to go that low, or lower. I think there is always SOME market for a nice, well-kept car, no matter what it is.
We were mostly talking about the stuff that ends up in junkyards, though.
Anyway, the point of this. She smashed the front turnsignal housing on her car on somebody's bumper and he was raring to go to the junkyard. This was the high point of his week - maybe month.
As it turned out, he bought a new one from the dealer because the "Modern Salvage Yards" all wanted $10 more for a used one than what the dealer charged for one in the box.
What's the world coming to?
John
P.S. - I got my driver's license in 1966 and I think we could extend the "decade" under discussion a few years or more on each end.
I think the Seville started off around $11,000 when it came out for '75, but had risen to around $14-15,000 by '79. In contrast, I think a DeVille started around $8-9K in '75, and was around $12K by '79, plus options. How much did a Benz usually cost back then? Maybe Cadillac priced the Seville higher because it had to, to be considered in the same price bracket as Mercedes. Lincoln charged similar prices for the Versailles, even though it probably cost them very little to create that car. Where the Seville shared almost no sheetmetal with the Nova, and had a longer wheelbase and a substantially different interior, the Versailles was just a Granada with 4 headlights, a more arrogant grille, and more fluff here and there. It sold poorly compared to the Seville, but I'm sure each one must've been pure profit!
Those first-gen Sevilles were heavy cars too...something like 4200-4300 lb, I believe. Still, I think the 180 hp 350 could get them from 0-60 in about 10-11 seconds, from what I've read. Interestingly, when the big Cadillacs were downsized for '77, depending on how they were optioned, some of them were actually a touch lighter than the Seville!
When those neoclassic "Bustleback" Sevilles came out for 1980, the price jumped to something like $21,000. I'm surprised more buyers didn't balk at that price increase, since that's about a 50% increase in just one year! Unless there was more standard equipment in 1980, which would soften the shock of the final, out-the-door prices?
It surprises me that the Seville was so heavy -- it weighed 900 pounds more than the Nova of the same year -- which indicates that a lot more structure and sound insulation was added to the car.
Consumer Guide's Encyclopedia of American Cars says that it was very well received and was actually a very competent car for the time, providing good acceleration and ride with far superior handling to any of the other American luxury cars of the time. I still think it is a nice looking car, although I wish they had styled a more graceful front end -- something to match the rear/ Cadillac insisted on the upright, "formal" look on the front of its cars, so as not to offend its traditional customer base.
That kind of ambivalence has been Cadillac's undoing for years. It appears that they are finally realizing that they have to make a complete break with the past in order to give themselves any credibility with the new customers they hope to bring into the fold.
Buick: Riviera and Grand National
Caddie: Eldorado and Seville
Chevy: Caprice, IROC-Z & '84 Corvette
Dodge: Omni GLH
Ford: Crown Victoria, Mustang, Thunderbird
Lincoln: MkVII LSC
Olds: Hurst/Olds W30 Cutlass, Toronado
Plymouth: Forget about it...
Pontiac: Trans Am
While all of these cars may not be the match of those preceding or following, some of them were groundbreaking cars: the Corvette, Caprice, Mustang 5.0, Thunderbird, Lincoln LSC and Grand National being a few. I find it hard to believe that scrap yards would not accept a TBird, for instance, since so many were sold and so many are still on the road. Ditto for the Camaros, Mustangs and Firebirds.
I owned an 84 LSC and an 85 Camaro and found both of them to be wonderful cars, although both of them started nickel and diming me at 120k.
What will doom them is that nobody will pay the price to restore them, which means no junkyard will pay the price to buy them or keep them. It is a very hard-assed economic reality of supply and demand.
Even though some of the cars you mention might have some points of merit, and even a couple of cars like the GN will survive, 99% of the doomed decade won't, I don't think. If there were not early 70s and early 90s cars to compare them to, maybe they would survive, but not in comparison to what else you could buy from earlier or later decades.
I myself don't see anything "groundbreaking" in these cars, unless you mean in the dinosaur sense. I think these cars went no where in terms of future design or styling cues. They were big, generally not all that attractive, fuel-hungy and not very well screwed together.
But there will be a few worthy survivors, so that's something.
For a GM example, I see more '78-83 Malibus still on the road than I do Celebrities, which ran from 1982 until around 1990. They were for the most part, simpler, sturdier, more reliable, cheaper to fix, etc, so I guess more of them survived. Also, for the most part, when it comes to old cars, 2-door coupes are much more popular than 4-door sedans. The last year the Malibu was offered as a 2-door coupe was 1981, when they sold about 30,000 or so. The year before that, they sold about 60,000 Malibu coupes. I don't know about '78-79, but the Malibu in general sold much better those two years, so I'm sure the coupe totals were much higher, as well. However, with the Celebrity, the vast, vast majority of them were sedans. I think the Celebrity's sales peaked in 1986, with about 400,000 sold, but when it comes to coupes, they never beat the '81 Malibu's 30,000 coupes.
Now I don't know if it'll ever get to the point that Malibu and Celebrity coupes become desireable collectors items. However, the Malibu can do something fairly easily that no Celebrity will ever do without some serious modification: accept a big-block in its engine bay. I think cars like the '78-81 Malibu coupe, and the '78-88 Monte, are starting to fill the same niche that cars like the Nova used to fill...a fairly small, fairly light car that's easy to hop up.
So, no one restoring them means no one buying parts except for the diehards, so wrecking yards will scrap them out rather than take up space. I mean, really, would you put a new motor in a Celebrity or Malibu with a couple dents and ripped seats? I doubt many people would do that.
The '84 Corvette was a quantum leap forward for the nameplate, and although the first year's model was unbelievably harsh, it handled as well as anything else at the time, and the styling was slean and tasteful. Pininfarina loved it, which is a pretty heady compliment from one of the world's premier designers.
The T-Bird was a very clean, beautifully proportioned car with subtle BMW influences (Dick Teague was a big BMW buff), and the early years are the best in terms of styling. It was trim, handled well and performed pretty well too -- unlike its immediate predecessor, which was the biggest pile of c*** you can ever imagine. Classic? No -- but we were talking about scrap yards, and scrap yards keep parts on any car that is still in common use. I still see a lot of these on the road, so I seriously coubt that any scrap yard would turn one away.
The Caprice was one of Bill Mitchell's last designs, and it still defines what an American-style sedan should look like. It was lithe, taut and beautifully detailed. It still looks good today. It, too, was an extemely popular car, and should still command some attention from recyclers.
The crisply designed Toronado and Eldo of the time were elegant, powerful and well finished. They had a pretty good production run too, as I recall.
The Grand National will certainly survive, as it is an icon amongst muscle car and racing enthusiasts. Buick has always managed to surprise everyone with its performance cars, whenever it decides to do one.
The IROC-Z and TransAm will also survive, because they still appeal to the buyers who originally bought them -- the 16-23 year olds, with an occasional 50 year old thrown in for good measure. Although their performance at the time was nothing to write home about, they can easily be upgraded to insane levels with cheap and readily available parts from the aftermarket. Styling-wise, they have it all over the current generation, which is why it's headed for the back forty.
The majority of these cars I think are, indeed, doomed.
Because of that, and also because of succeeding generations' affinity for foreign nameplates, be they German or Japanese, the Corvette has lost a lot of its magic. Darn shame, because in every review that's compared it to the Viper, the Vette is the one they'd take home.
My point was that there are two kinds of cars worth recycling: classics (as defined by the population at large), and family cars bought in huge numbers (like the Camry and Accord, for instance). In fact, the lowly Cutlass, out of production these many years, is still in the top ten stolen cars today! Based on these criteria, I think the Caprice, TBird, MkVII and a few others would likely bring in something at a scrap yard. How much it would be, I have no idea.
(Although I would like to have a super-clean MkVII-LSC and a Grand National GNX, just for variety's sake).
There may come a day when some of the loathsome vehicles produced during the late 1970s and early 1980s will completely disappear. For instance, I wonder if there are any first year Plymouth minivans still roaming the roadways.
Why someone would go to the effort of keeping that car running is beyond me. Its value triples with a full tank of gas!
-Jason
In my neighbors yard. He has not one, but two. Neither run and he's trying to make one runner out of the pair.
Why is he doing it? Not sure. The boy has issues is all I can figure.
http://www.clydenc.org/newwave/allison/
I think the chance is very remote that any car model will completely disappear, at least not for a very very long time. There are always a few loose nuts like that guy who will keep them running.
-Andrew L
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1807089789&tc=photo6471
Actually, if I had a place to park two more cars, I wouldn't mind owning a pair of Yugos. The incredulous comments they would generate ("You mean those run?") would make it worth the trouble :-)
-Andrew L
Two Yugos for the low low price of $1125. No, this isn't a fortune, but I can think of quite a few cars I'd rather have for that money (an old Civic, and old Saab 900 turbo, a mid-80s Volvo 240, hell, anything!!).
Interestingly, even if you found the "only one" of something, it might not really be worth very much. People have to care.
I own, among others, a LHD Vauxhall PA (Extremely rare) and a XKE 4.2 Series 1 Roadster, which is much more common.
Gee, which is worth more?
I think the engine on the E is worth more than the Vauxhall.
Bill
No offense meant, Bill. I just helped a friend buy a used E-Type bonnet, and I know the approximate value of an old Vauxhall, so it seemed a natural comparison. I'll try to be nicer to Vauxhalls in the future.
Hey, not as bad as one remark I heard "Pal, there are BASEBALL CARDS worth more than your car!"