Honda Element

moonkat · December 2002

It takes high self-esteem to be driving a vehicle of your choice and indifferent to the opinions of others. That driver is confident of himself and does not require ornamentation to make up for a diminished ego (or other deficiencies). He is free to pursue goals which reinforce and enhance his life.

I have been ignoring the "Element is Ugly" rhetoric for awhile now, but I gotta say it is appalling. First for the intolerance displayed by these people, second by their ignorance. The Element is beautifully conceived on many levels - functional/ergonomic design, utility, technically, and yes even in shape it is visually appealing.

The true test, as always, is time. We'll have to revisit these attitudes in a few years and then a decade later. Fortunately, for most of us, I am preaching to the choir :-)

ateixeira · December 2002

That's OK if some never get it, it's OK if 90% of people don't get it. I bet Honda is hoping that CR-V intenders do NOT like it.

As long as the other 10% of shoppers in the segment get it.

-juice

sharpwmn · December 2002

I've been very excited about the E for months and have followed its development on the Honda website and the links you guys have given for reviews, etc. Thanks.
I'm a 40 something female academic type and yeah I'm excited by this vehicle. I do lots of activities with my 2 year old collie and I wonder if Honda knows this may be the perfect dogmobile for those of us who cart agility equipment to trials and our dogs with all their gear. Some of the events are day trips and some for weekends a few hours from home. The lease will be up soon on my Sebring convertible (Inferno Red) and although the dog looks really good riding politely in the back seat of the Chrysler with the top down, I know I have to get some thing practical. And yes, I want it to be distinctive,-- I care a lot about design. My previous car was a Miata, midnight blue with tan leather. The Sebring WAS my way of getting a bit more practical.
I live in Central Virginia and have been on the list (#2, they told me) since September to test drive an EX Auto 2WD as soon as the local dealer gets one in. To kill time and since I love researching cars, I've got a good deal perking along on an MPV LX that would be about $1,400 more than the E's MSR of 19,500. It's possible I won't like the Element once I drive it, or, those Honda salespeople could annoy me.
I'll have to make up my mind quick about the MPV since the dealer incentive will last until just after the first of 2003.
I am just the type of extravert you're talking about who won't mind at all if we are stared at in the sunset orange E. I only hope the cargo area is big enough for the dog, his crate, and a good amount of gear. I only need the 2 front seats so I guess I'd take the rear seats out if it helped with loading it up.
Bottom line is I am a person who needs a minivan or roomier SUV (priced around 20K) and I really don't like my boring choices. So Honda is offering something different and I'm thrilled about that. The only SUV that excited me design wise was the XTerra and frankly, the Element looks like more fun. Anybody else see this as a good dogmobile and wish Honda would cool it a bit on the "dorm room on wheels" schtick?

ateixeira · December 2002

Mazda will very likely have new incentives after the current ones expire. In fact they would tend to increase, not disappear.

I'd wait and try an Element.

Get a Miata used as a 2nd vehicle. That's what I did. It's the perfect complement to an AWD practical ride. :-)

-juice

daveghh · December 2002

I own a 02 CRV and if the Element came out at the same time the CRV did I would have seriously considered the E. I would have to see them and drive them in person but I like the styling and fuctionality of the Element.

Although, the mileage in the Element is a little disapointing.

varmint · December 2002

Along with Moonkat, I've avoided detailed discussion of the subject. But here goes...

The Element is actually very well designed from a styling point of view. The look is very cohesive from front to back, top to bottom. The use of similar shapes in the windows, headlights, and other places is a strong and very effective motif. None of the shapes clash with one another and the body lines are resolved with reasonable care. In this regard, the Element has better styling than the CR-V.

A truly ugly car (we cannot escape comparison with the Aztek on this) will have few themes in the shapes, confused lines, and awkward proportions. That is simply not true of the Element.

What we have with the Element is a styling motif that is non-traditional, not ugly. Automotively speaking, Americans have little appreciation for the box as far as shapes go. We've embraced angular wedges, aero-wedges, over-sized lights, giant fins, bell-bottoms, and plaid pants, but few appreciate a box or simple square. They just aren't used in our culture. It's not because boxes are inherently ugly.

varmint · December 2002

I think the function to price ratio for the Element is pretty good. It's a small minivan with a small price tag. Sure, you can get more space and more power from a larger minivan, but you also have to pay a larger price. This vehicle replaces cars like the old Civic Wagon, the Colt Vista, and the Eagle Summit. Frankly, it looks a lot better, too.

s852 · December 2002

The styling doesn't bother me in the least.
I probably won't buy one because of lack of engine power and because reviews have said the front seats are set very low, like sitting in a bathtub with your knees pointing up in the air and straining to see over the dash and hood. I hate that. I prefer chair-high seating.
I remember when the Nissan Xterra came out many, many years ago in the 1990's and I was excited to go test drive one until I sat in the very low drivers seat that had no height adjustment.
I will have to go sit in one and drive the Element to verify those things for myself, but if it turns out to be true, I won't ever get one.

anonymousposts · December 2002

My boyfriend is 6'6 (mostly legs) and his legs weren't up in the air. He had plenty of headroom and legroom. I was also looking at pictures of it today and saw that it does have a height adjuster on the driver's seat.

chris777 · December 2002

2003 Element 2WD DX
Manual - Retail $16,100 | Invoice $14,880.64
Automatic - Retail $16,900 | Invoice $15,618.56
2003 Element 2WD EX
Manual - Retail $18,650 | Invoice $17,232.76
Automatic - Retail $19,450 | Invoice $17,970.68
2003 Element 2WD EXS (Side Airbags)
Manual - June 2003
Automatic - June 2003
2003 Element 4WD DX
Manual - May 2003
Automatic - Retail $18,300 | Invoice $16,909.92
2003 Element 4WD EX
Manual - May 2003
Automatic - Retail $20,850 | Invoice $19,262.04
2003 Element 4WD EXS (Side Airbags)
Manual - June 2003
Automatic - June 2003

chris777 · December 2002

i got to drive an element along with a crv (almost an accord too but the sales lady had to leave early plus i am getting a cold or a sinus infection so ill hold off a bit on a full review untill i feel better

likes
comfortable seats
better visibility than crv
utility
quieter than crv at 75-80 mph

dislikes
I BANGED MY KNEE ON THE SUBWOOFER

auto shifter too "loose" and awkward
i think the steering stalk like on pilot , oddesey and the 1st gen crv would be better
same to the crv's new shifter though it did seem to stick better than elements

I do not care for the lame stereo no matter who made it or how "loud" it is

my left foot became tired and sore I dont know if it was the dead pedal position or the low seating

low seating I felt like a kid (or one of those 90 lb women driving a suburban)

window too high or maby it was the low front seating plus the design angle in the corner kept me from propping my arm up with the window down

gauges the steering wheel blocked my view of them

cruse was awkward had to reach really far (and search) just to activate it

I roughly measured the length of the bed btw
65' with front seats back and 75' slid to the front
(no room to sit slid all lthe way up as well)

it was very very strange unlike any vehicle I've ever been in.
you just have to sit in it

I'll comment more later when I get rid of this cold

dindak · December 2002

Looks pushed way aside ... what is so special about what the Element does? Ya it has lots of space for stuff, big deal. The function factor just sounds like a gimmick to me as it doesn't do anything special. Lots of attractive vehicles out there that do the same thing Element does and you don't have to constantly defend your purchase.

moonkat · December 2002

Thanks for the preview Chris:
That makes two real world testers who perceive it is "quieter than CRV". You and Isellhondas'.

As for the 270 watt stereo - tell it like it is!
Honda needs to get on the ball and satisfy you (near) Gen-Y'ers.

How about performance & handling comparos as well?

civicw · December 2002

In a world of too many choices, the Element provides something "different", but the suicide doors are a hassle, IMO. I also think it misses its young demographic target with its relatively high cost. One can routinely get a Civic LX auto for about $14.5K before TTL. In contrast, the fully equipped 2wd Element will cost around $19.5K assuming no dealer markup.

Regardless, Honda will sell out its production to a mostly older crowd.

ateixeira · December 2002

Don't assume it lacks power until you try one.

dindak: space for stuff is a big deal to someone shopping in this segment. Isn't it? I mean, are you looking for lateral g's and steering feedback when you drive one? Or room to fit 2 (dirty) mountain bikes inside?

-juice

varmint · December 2002

"Lots of attractive vehicles out there that do the same thing Element does and you don't have to constantly defend your purchase."

...and cost as little as the Element?

The large door openings, AWD option, removeable seats, and big cargo area are huge pluses for a vehicle ranging upward from $17K. Sure, a minivan will offer the same utility, but few are priced that low.

I also think that you can't really push looks aside. The look of the vehicle is part of its function. The styling says something about the buyer and it's not remotely the same message broadcast by a wagon or van.

ateixeira · December 2002

Yeah, MPV and Sedona, that's about it for matching that kind of space at that price, and both have FWD disease. ;-)

I hear Honda is supposed to do a Crew Cab off the Pilot platform, so they sure are getting a little more courageous than usual.

-juice

diploid · December 2002

We looked at an MPV. I didn't think it was cheap at all. IMO, it was priced similarly to bigger minivans, which in turn, made it appear expensive for what it offered. The Sedona gives you a good van for a decent price, but I'd take the Odyssey for the additional features that it offers (and no, not because it wears an H emblem). Although I really wouldn't since I really don't like the Ody's styling at all, but given the choice between that and a Sedona ,I would.

jona57 · December 2002

Three cheers to Honda for daring to produce something different!!!! GM tried with the Aztek & has gotten nothing but undeserved grief for it. Say what you wish about either of these edgy vehicles, but they are certainly unique- which is reason enough to love them. I happen to like the styling of both the Element & the Aztek , although I find the Element's interior lacking a bit in comfort (e.g. front seat cushions too low). I like the extra interior touches in the Aztek (but to be fair it is more expensive- though not by much with the current rebates!). I hope Honda, GM and others produce more vehicles like these with controversial styling. The current plethora of near-identical sedans, minivans, and SUV's bores me to death!!!!!

Jon

dindak · December 2002

Ya.. it costs a bit less than a van but that's the more is better logic I don't follow. Price per square inch may be the lowest but I prefer a good meal to an all you can eat buffet.

Like I said, looks aside, the utility / function Honda is trying to sell this thing on just doesn't sound like much more than a gimmick to me. I'll take the CR-V anyday.

rsholland · December 2002

What a hoot! On my way back from teaching, I stopped by the Honda dealer to see if they had any Element brochures. Lo and behold, not only did they have brochures, but the car too!

It is nippy and fun to drive. I got it out on the interstate and it was comfortable and quiet. It has an auto up/down driver's window.

Negative: Temp spare and a 675 pound payload.

When I got back there were two other people there waiting for test drives. One (a 30-something) of which, who had a 2-day old silver WRX wagonand just put a deposit down on the Element! Honda will sell every one of these babies!

The one I drove was a green AWD EX automatic.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2002

A base model MPV starts at $20k street price around here, and that's an LX (they dropped the DX). And you get a 200hp V6 and a 5 speed Jatco automatic, 7 seats with a magic folding 3rd row, and the only minivan that lets you open the rear windows.

MSRP for the Ody may seem close, but actual prices will run about $4-6 grand higher.

Anyhow, lots of people like the "all you can eat" deals. Do you order crabs that way, or by the dozen? :-)

Cool, Bob, I thought they said the 19th was the first day? Oh well.

675 lbs, though? You sure? That's very low. No wonder they made it a 4 seater, you couldn't seat 5 adults without exceeding the payload.

The RAV4 has just 760 lbs payload and I thought that was too low. I'm surprised, too, because they added beefier 16" wheels, so if anything I expected extra payload.

Other impressions? Material and build quality? NVH control? Seats easy to fold? Rear seat comfort? Hose-out-ability?

-juice

varmint · December 2002

"I'll take the CR-V anyday."

Then you would be like most people. However, and I can't believe we have to hammer this so often, the Element is not for most people.

rsholland · December 2002

Payload was either 675 or 645. I don't remember for sure. It was marked on the door jam. In either case, it's very low, and very disappointing, considering its potential usage, and potential for abuse. The thing weighs almost 3600 pounds! Towing is 1500 pounds, 1000 pounds if there are no trailer brakes; the same as the CRV.

The quality seemed to be typical Honda; need I say more? I didn't have time to go over it with a fine tooth comb, as I handed over the keys to another "tester" as soon as I got back

Bob

diploid · December 2002

-a 200hp V6
-5 speed Jatco automatic,
-7 seats with a magic folding 3rd row,
-the only minivan that lets you open the rear windows

You also get a smaller minivan. That may float for some, but not for me. Kind of defeats the purpose of buying a minivan.

Actual prices for the Ody is not as high as it was before. You'll still pay MSRP or close to MSRP, but it's not in the neighborhood of 4-6K higher. Check out autosite.com for Nov's sales data...Odyssey is the #2 seller. Honda has increased production to try to meet demand. IMO, they're 80% there and there are quite a few dealers willing to negotiate now that they have the Pilot to gauge customers with.

moonkat · December 2002

Just noticed the topic is a year old today.

It's been fun while waiting for E to debut :-)

stever · December 2002

lol, see what you started? (We expect you to be here when the 5th Anniversary rolls around!).

(btw, first post was 01/26/2002, but I won't tell anyone if you don't).

Steve, Host

dindak · December 2002

All you can eat sounds good, but it usually makes a person feel ill after the meal is done.

;-)

Hey, if you can handle the glares of people all the power to you. The Aztek is also a great idea gone wrong. I think both vehicles would do better if they didn't try so hard to different. What the heck do I know.. Aztek still sells so why not Element.

chris777 · December 2002

I've been trying to think of comparisons,
all I came up with was the old motor homes built on truck and van chassis where once you get done driving to your destination you climb up into the passenger living compartment

(I'll bet the E feels exactly like the nissan quest show car in the drivers seat)

just felt weird
I am still in shock especially since no one mentioned it in any of the reviews

s852 · December 2002

It was confirmed in the report above, so now I don't need to bother test driving it.
Maybe the seat is adjustable or maybe it will be changed for 2004.

a_l_hubcaps · December 2002

I've not actually seen an Element in person, but there is one specific thing that makes it "do something different," and that makes me like it: the fact that the interior is all heavy-duty and easy to clean. If you're going to use your SUV/wagon for dirty work of any kind, you don't want carpet, leather and cloth all over the place just waiting to get stained and damaged.

I love my Pontiac wagon, but that nice carpet on the load floor drives me nuts. I use it to haul around dirty hubcaps often, and I have to be careful to put down old bath towels before loading them in there, or I'll get permanent black brake dust rings in the carpet. With all the plastic and rubber in the Element, I could just chuck hubcaps in there from all directions, and easily sponge off any residue afterwards. If I had $16,000 lying around, which I don't, I would definitely look at an Element.

-Andrew L

scname · December 2002

Saw one today. Chevy Astrovan came to mind immediatly. Doesn't look so odd like in pictures at all. Honda should replace those plastic with painted steel fenders.

If I havn't bot 02V already, I'd pick E just for the suicide doors and tailgate.

diploid · December 2002

I think the plastic gives the Element its unique touch. Not even the Avalanche gives you that much cladding.

diploid · December 2002

The Element is now on the Honda website. There are a lot of accessories to choose from, both for the interior and the exterior.

My favorite is the privacy shield:

http://www.hondacars.com/images/2003/element/customize/ELEME03242_large.jpg

Sometimes during finals week, I basically sleep in my car overnight at school since I commute.

rsholland · December 2002

Keep them! It's one of the items that make it unique. And they look great, IMO.

Bob

robertsmx · December 2002

Could be due to load rating of the tires, Honda, once again, trying to keep the numbers well within the threshold.

dindak · December 2002

Actually, I think the Aztek looked better before they axed all the plastic cladding. It looks more awkward now. Cladding seems to be getting popular as I noticed the new 4-Runner offers it also.

rsholland · December 2002

They're 215/70x16, which are certainly up to the task. That's larger than what the CRV uses.

The vehicle is heavy, just under 3500 pounds, for the EX AWD automatic. I suspect the suspension components were not upgraded from the lighter CRV.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2002

Bob: I think the trailer brake requirement for anything over 1000 lbs is almost universal, isn't it?

diploid: I like the Ody too, I just don't necessarily like the idea of paying that much for a vehicle you need, vs. want. Plus add a moonroof and an extended warranty and prices get steep.

Aztek sales are poor compared to the Rendezvous, which also costs more. It's a certified flop. Consider how many dealers Pontiac has, and the huge marketing push it got. I mean, c'mon, they were the primary sponsor for Survivor, the #1 show at the time, and still flopped!

Hey Andrew, long time no see. But you'd definitely get the DX with steelies, right? :-)

That shield is cool. A surfer really could change in there. The "bed" looks lumpy, though, take an air mattress to throw on top of them.

Another vote for cladding. The stuff is like teflon. Painting the bumpers means you should budget for maybe 2-3 repaints to cover up dings and scratches. That's about a grand of savings.

Bob: they did use stiffer springs rates, IIRC, and thicker no-sway bars. Factor the tires, and the low payload rating is puzzling.

-juice

rsholland · December 2002

<< Bob: I think the trailer brake requirement for anything over 1000 lbs is almost universal, isn't it? >>

Pretty much so, at least for small-mid size SUVs; even for some full-size SUVs/trucks, Toyota for example.

<< Bob: they did use stiffer springs rates, IIRC, and thicker no-sway bars. >>

I don't know.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2002

I'm sure about the sways, but not about the springs. I recall one review said it had less body roll than the CR-V because the anti-sway bars were a thicker.

But that alone would not increase payload.

-juice

varmint · December 2002

The suspension in the Element is a "squished" version of what is used in the CR-V. I would expect there is less ability to accept the compression of a heavy load. Some components were upgraded, but the overall design is the same.

I've with Dindak on the Aztek. I dunno if it was the cladding, but the concept version looked much more athletic than the production model.

ateixeira · December 2002

You mean the same springs, just compressed more because of the curb weight?

Aztec's problem is the sloping D-pillar. They probably did it so they could fit that camping package (some say camo package to hide the ugly rear). But you lose space and end up with a rear that looks squashed.

Then add the flared nostrils, eye lids, gills, etc. Check out the amateur photochop topic here, someone squared off the back and removed all the angry looking scoops on the front and it actually looked pretty good.

-juice

neon99 · December 2002

I had an hour to kill yesterday after work, so I stopped by Irvine Auto Center (Flabedoe?) Honda Dealer.

They had an Element in the showroom (MSRP $19K, 2WD). There was another gentleman there giving it the hard eye. He was mid-late 20's and he mentioned his wife an dog a few times. I was only there to take a look, as I just recently purchased the Saturn L-Series Wagon (0/0/0 baby).

First impression was that it was better looking in person than the internet. This was a Silver model. We went through the interior pretty well, put the seats in maybe 10 of the 64 (number repeated by salesman many times) of their possible positions. Including both up againt the side for maximum space.

It was a good amount of room, especially in the height dimension. Odd sized, or large square items will find a home in there fairly easily. My LW wagon technically has more space, but it is certainly not as accommodating in that respect. I briefly stood next to a CRV, which I could easily look over the roof, while the E was taller than I am.

Then, to our surprise, the "E Expert" came over and suggested we test drive it. They opened the double doors and drove it out of the showroom. An odd thing happened, it's dimensions appeared smaller once in motion. In other words, it seemed big parked, but less so on the road (visually).

There are a few considerations as four people stepped in. First, make sure you close the doors in the correct order. Second, the seatbelt is on the rear door, so yes, you do need to make sure it is off before people can get in the back. Neither were a big deal.

Now on the road, the guy I was with was the one to drive. I opted not to drive as I was not in the market, have driven plenty of 4 bangers, and got a real good idea of the ride from the front passenger seat.

It was not all that impressive from my perspective. They guy driving said it drove like his wife's Civic (not my favorite car). The engine was a little buzzy, the ride was bouncy, and for the brief high speed run, the wind noise got pretty loud. There was not any road noise that I noticed. I didn't lean greatly, but you could tell this is not a sedan.

Overall, I was impressed with the packaging. Very practical, and plenty of personality without hitting you over the head with LOOK AT ME. It did lose points on ride and drive. My wagon is faster and smoother. I'm just not a big fan of SUV roadfeel. I would give it a 8/10 for effort, and a 6/10 for personal desirability.

One small note, the driver mentioned that the A-pillar felt like it was in an odd position (too forward?), where he would be looking through his driver side window to be viewing the road in front of him. He felt it was an odd sensation, but something that could be gotten used to.

ateixeira · December 2002

64? Am I missing something? Both down, both up, one in each position. That's 3. It's symmetrical so the 4th is basically the same as #3.

It slides fore/aft, but so do the front seats and we don't consider each of those different configurations.

So it felt smaller from inside? You think it's the short overhangs? Better visibility?

-juice

Anakin · December 2002

The problem with the aztek design is GM's bean counters. I liked the concept. It had decent proportions and looked rugged.

The bean counters demanded the model be built on the Montana minivan platform, which affected the overall proportions of the vehicle. then they topped it off by putting tiny wheels on it, which made it look even more ungainly.

Since Bob Lutz has been around, the designers' work has been a little more likely to see production, which should help.

neon99 · December 2002

Seat positions? I don't know, just what the sales guy was saying.

I didn't say it felt smaller from the inside, but rather, it looked large sitting by itself in the showroom, but appeared smaller in dimension as it was driving out of the showroom into the parking lot. I was not in the vehicle while this was going on, so it was an outside perspective thing. Maybe it had to do with that in the showroom, you pretty much had to stand right next to it, while once it was outside, you could view it from several feet back.

robertsmx · December 2002

I meant "Load Rating" of the tires, not the size of the wheels. Tires can have different load ratings within the same size. Assuming use of tires with load rating of, say, 1150 lb. each, total weight they can safely take would be about 4600 lb.
Now, factor in the weight (payload plus tongue weight if a trailer is being pulled, full tank etc. etc.), a 3600 lb. vehicle is likely to get very close to the limit on the tires (also factor in weight distribution since tires will have different weight to carry).

In other words, if E were lighter by 200 lb., it could have used that towards additional payload. In fact, 2WD version may actually have a higher payload, if Honda chooses it to be.

rsholland · December 2002

is the number mentioned in the brochure, which is accompanied by 64 thumbnail size images of possible seating arrangements. I didn't really study them, as they were so small.

Bob

dindak · December 2002

No doubt the Aztek is a flop. That said, it should have never been anything more than a niche vehicle in the first place. Wonder if sales are up or down from the first year?

Concept of the Aztek looked pretty good, but it was still ugly IMO. Wonder if they will kill it or redesign for 04/05?

Element has 2 things going for it.. Honda's reputation and a realistic sales goal. Aztek sales were projected way high (75K+). Honda projects 40K for Element I believe.

Honda Element

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