Honda Element

ateixeira · December 2002

Not only that, they removed the 3rd row seat from the Montana, and didn't even offer AWD for the first several months. All that perceived ruggedness and no AWD?

Any how, back to Element, I guess they are counting the bed positions? I don't see how they can come up with 64, though.

It is versatile, sort of like the PT Cruiser interior, only bigger. Or a minivan, only smaller. Depends on your perspective.

-juice

vadp · December 2002

40K projected sales?

I wonder if Honda will be able to meet that goal.

gatorgreg · December 2002

With all the posts on payload, I thought I'd post this pic I took over the weekend of a 2WD EX Auto. Not sure what payload means exactly, but the pic shows the GVWR, FWIW

rerenov8r · December 2002

To determine payload subtract curb weight from GVWR.

rsholland · December 2002

is listed on the label that's on the door jam. It also has the tire pressure, etc. Actually, since there is no "B" pillar on the Element, it's on the side of the door (I think it was the front door?), where the two side doors meet.

Not sure where that label is from? Under the hood, perhaps?

Bob

hugenstein · December 2002

Driver Seat(2) - Upright and Flat
Passenger Seat(2) - Upright and Flat
Left Rear Seat(4) - Upright, Flat, Against Wall, Removed Completely
Right Rear Seat(4) - Upright, Flat, Against Wall, Removed Completely

2 x 2 x 4 x 4 = 64

That's how you come up with 64 seating configurations.

diploid · December 2002

But why multiply those numbers?

Shouldn't you add them?

tiredofmanual · December 2002

For each possible position of each individual seat, the other three seats can be in any of their possible positions. I'll show you the first few configurations. And I'm numbering the positions to make it easier on me(Upright = 1, Flat = 2, Against Wall = 3, Removed = 4).

Driver,Passenger,Left Rear, Right Rear
1,1,1,1
1,1,1,2
1,1,1,3
1,1,1,4
1,1,2,1
1,1,2,2
1,1,2,3
1,1,2,4
1,1,3,1
1,1,3,2
1,1,3,3
etc... It comes out to 64 possiblities, though it really isn't that big of a deal - if you look at the possible combinations in most cars and minivans, they all have lots of combinations.

aquaswimmer · December 2002

I am the first on the Honda dealer list with a deposit down on an Element here in Santa Monica in west Los Angeles.

The dealership just received a silver 5spd DX so I naturally took it for a test drive.

I'm impressed with the room. I'm 6'0 and my room mate is 6'5 and we both fit in the driver's seat.

Tons of rear seat room and heaps of headroom.

More surprising though...it's peppy!

With three people in the car the Element chirped the tires in second gear easily. Lots of low end torque.

Granted I was driving a 5spd DX, the lightest possible Element but my friend and I weigh 450lbs between us and the sales lady thrown in has to be almost 600lbs of payload and the E was pretty fast!

Since I did not take the Element on the freeway I am talking about low end power really....the first three gears. I am used to my 95 Infiniti Q45's 280 horses and I can tell you the Element is no slouch.

Handles well too, pretty neutral....even when I threw it into a few turns pretty aggressively it did not understeer and that's with the DX cheesy wheels and tires.

dindak · December 2002

"I'm impressed with the room"

If a box shaped vehicle doesn't have room, I don't know what would.

moonkat · December 2002

Actually, a sphere.

That's why bubbles are spherical...most volume contained within given surface area.

Buckminster Fuller promoted this and other innovations in his Geodesic Dome (hemi-sphere) design, and VW advances this in their Beatle.

Translating a sphere into a vehicle does have its challenges however.

(Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)

ateixeira · December 2002

First number on the VIN is 5, is that for UK? Japan is J.

hugenstein: thanks for the explanation.

I don't imagine half of those would ever be used, but whatever. It sounds versatile and if it helps sell, even better.

Aren't 16" wheels standard? So the DX prolly has the tires as the EX, just on steelies.

Challenges like having a head and sitting in the rear seat? Or cleaning the inside of the windshield!

-juice

Anakin · December 2002

Buckminster Fuller promoted this and other innovations in his Geodesic Dome (hemi-sphere) design, and VW advances this in their Beatle.

Which Beatle? John? Paul? George? Ringo?

;^)

tidester · December 2002

That's why bubbles are spherical...most volume contained within given surface area.

Not to put too fine a point on it but it's actually the other way around - least surface area for a given volume! It has to do with minimizing the energy associated with surface tension.

tidester, host

moonkat · December 2002

Is that you Steve?
The expressions are equivalent.

And Anakin:
I thought it was understood that it was John :-~

stever · December 2002

Not me; I'll expound on most anything but math.

Steve, Host

wannavee · December 2002

Howdy all!

I have been a follower of the CRV discussion for quite some time and thought that I had found the perfect vehicle for me and my family's needs. I am forty-two, married, and have 2 young children.

The lease on my Ford Windstar terminates in March of 2003 and I had made preparations for purchase of a white '03 EX by placing a deposit on a vehicle expected to be delivered in mid January.

The salesman called today and informed me that an Element was on the lot and available for inspection, since I had told him it looked interesting on paper.

To shorten a story that is getting long, I now have the deposit on a Shoreline mist AWD EX Element and can't wait the 6 weeks!

This vehicle has tons of passenger space! I'm 6'2" and am able to get comfortable in all seats, even in back with driver seat in rearmost position. This beats the CRV hands down, which in comparison has cramped leg room for front seating.

Ride quality seems better than CRV also, much quieter at highway speed for wind and road noise.

I still think the CRV is a great car and if not for the E would soon own one. I know I don't fit the demographics but too bad! This car is way cool!

I'll post more when the keys are in hand!

Stu

tidester · December 2002

Is that you Steve?

No, it's me, Tidester! :-)

The expressions are equivalent.

No they are not. Given surface area means the surface area is fixed and the volume can vary.

Given volume means the volume is fixed and the surface area can vary.

Only the latter can assure minimal potential energy with respect to surface tension. Bubbles aren't round because of math - they are round because of physics!

In the case of a water, oil or gasoline droplet it is the amount of the substance that is fixed and its shape can change - i.e. surface area.

As I said, I don't want to put too fine a point on the matter and I'm straying from the topic ...! :-)

tidester, host

stever · December 2002

So is the cat in the bubble alive or dead?

Steve, Host

tidester · December 2002

Very good! LoL!

So is the cat in the bubble alive or dead?

It is very much alive and it tunnels out at night to sleep on warm hoods!

tidester, host

stever · December 2002

I know where there's a fix for that:

CATS... any way to keep them off that warm hood?

Or would you prefer something on topic?

Young Man, Would You Like That in a Box? (NY Times review)

Steve, Host

aquaswimmer · December 2002

Hehe, ok Schrodinger....as much as I like quantum mechanics and thermodynamics I have a question for you all..

What is your opinion regarding the reliability of the late model Hondas that have been built in North America..

I have heard that Honda's vaunted build quality has slipped a bit of late and that the civic for example was given a merely average rating in consumer reports..

Is this true...is Honda slipping? If so I'm sure that even the worst built Honda is still better than most but if indeed American/Canadian built Honda's are a bit off I might consider other choices more readily...

For example I'm deciding between an EX Element and a 2001 Infiniti QX4. The Nissan is built in Japan and gets very good ratings but I think I would lean towards purchasing the Element if I knew that the E would live up to Honda's reputation.

Appreciate any thoughts regarding Honda's current reliability and build quality. Thanks

dindak · December 2002

Keep in mind the Civic/Accord and CR-V are all fairly new models and every new vehicle has it's issues, even Hondas. I'm not sure that Honda is slipping, but I know other manufacturers are getting better and catching up all the time so Honda's probably aren't as special in terms of quality and reliability as they used to be.

moonkat · December 2002

The expressions are equivalent, the perspectives are different - glass A is half full = glass A is half empty.

Once you establish either a volume, or a surface area the answers are the same. Your argument of "glass A is half full does not equall glass B is half empty" is irrelevant.

My original attempt at humor was reinforcement of "boxy shapes are volume efficient".

I regret to say the cat is dead.

The bubble burst and the cat was impaled on Tidester's "fine point".

varmint · December 2002

Aquaswimmer - Honda has established a solid reputation for reliability. Hence many people blow it out of proportion and assume that Honda's are perfect and never break. Naturally, when the first thing goes wrong, their illusions are shattered and they call "foul". They don't actually say, "foul". They usually say, "Honda's are no longer as good", but the effect is the same.

Diploid is also correct that other makers have been closing the gap on Honda (and other Japanese car makers). On average, Honda's reliability has continued to grow over the past two decades. It grows at maybe 1-3% fewer problems every year or two. Others have grown at 5-10% in their attempts to catch Honda. Many have done so by implementing the same manufacturing techniques invented by Honda.

anonymousposts · December 2002

I've owned several late model Hondas and several early-mid 90's Hondas and none have given me the least bit of worry (knock on wood). I would hit the road in a well-maintained 93 Civic long before a new Kia, Hyunda, Ford, or GM product.

aquaswimmer · December 2002

Ah, Dindak, Varmint and others...so you feel that Honda has not slipped so much as others have been catching up by, among other things, emulating Honda's practices.

This seems reasonable. In that case...I'll take an Element to go, hold the dealer mark up!

Has anyone in Southern California gotten a good deal on an Element? I have heard on other forums of some rather good deals but they seem to be concentrated on the Eastern seaboard. Rhode Island, Connecticut etc...

dindak · December 2002

I would wait it out if you want one. If they aren't selling well you can be sure the incentives will be piled on to move them. That's what happened to the Aztek.

ateixeira · December 2002

Stu: I also found the CR-V's front seats could use more rearward travel. So Element must've gotten that.

Civic crept back up to above average. The first year had I think 6 recalls, just as many as the Ford Focus.

But Honda does stand behind their products - they extended the warranty on those trannies that were failing. Many companies would deny it until their faces turned blue.

Element should be reliable. The previous CR-V was Honda's most reliable product.

-juice

robertsmx · December 2002

The early problems with Civic may have to do with the drastic changes in manufacturing technique that Honda adopted worldwide. 2001 Civic was the first vehicle to be affected by the flexible manufacturing process (whatever it is called). And part of the process is to have quality control gates at each level, instead of quality control after the car is fully assembled. This implementation of the new process may help in the future if not immediately.

Element would be one of the last vehicles to be affected by the process. BTW, Civic has already improved since the redesign year (above average now?).

vadp · December 2002

My understanding is that quality control at each level should help immediately.
The problem with the new Civic is that the model was launched simultaneously all around the world for the very first time in the model history.
Honda had no opportunity to fix the bugs in the home market before the US launch.
Times are changing. It was never a good idea to buy a freshly redesigned domestic vehicle. Now this rule can be applied to the Japanese makes as well.
Regarding the Element. Even though it's a new design, the Element shares a lot of components with the CR-V, which is pretty reliable.

orangelebaron · December 2002

There is one thing that Honda just does not get, however. It is that some people want their consoles that they can lean on while driving and put stuff in.
I'd rather have a console than a flip up table for eating.
The dinky arm rests that fold down from the sides of the bucket seats are useless since they are too close to my body to lean my arm on.
Center consoles are not even available as an aftermarket item.

whatever_7 · December 2002

LOL I just saw an Element commercial where a guy got his pants pulled down in front of the glz,

chris777 · December 2002

but honda is offerig an arm rest with storage as an option on the E

it looks wide

sharpwmn · December 2002

I have followed the development of this vehicle for months. I have to say that examining it and driving it absolutely exceeded my expectations. The dealer had just one E, the EX 4WD automatic in eternal blue pearl.

I did not find the engine buzzy, as another poster reported. The E has the same iVTEC as the Accord, not the same engine as the CIVIC. It was very quiet. Also, the driver & front passenger seats did not seem low to me; I did not get the bathtub effect that another person reported. Interior feels very roomy. Rear seats are elevated a bit, stadium style. Drive was great, like any other 4cyl Honda. Handling was also fine. Visibility was fine.

Ground clearance is nearly 7 inches. Not only do you feel up there when you drive it, you feel out there too because the vehicle is unbelievably cool, for a box.

Dealer had already installed some equipment (roof rack, mats, cargo mat, mud guards, and an armrest with a storage compartment). I did not want the cargo mat or the $400 armrest so I got them to take the mat out and cut the retail price on all that extra equipment by a few hundred. I also said I would not pay the $850 dealer markup over MSR, so that got dropped. The big incentive for me to buy yesterday was Honda offering 3.49% on the financing for 60 months. This just cropped up two days ago and is only good till the end of December. The general manager said that Honda is determined to beat Toyota for sales in December, hence the low rate. Plus, I do not have to wait a month or more to buy one. My lease on the Sebring is up in two months and I didn't want to be at the mercy of the dealer when demand for the Element escalates. And since I was unwilling to pay any dealer markup, I might have ended up with an MPV or the Jeep Liberty, the other two vehicles I was seriously shopping. Overall, I am happy with my deal.

So I pick up my blue EX E 4WD 4SPD tomorrow! I can't wait to get my dog in there with all his agility equipment and head for the park. This is going to be one great dogmobile. I may get remote keyless entry put in tomorrow morning, if the cost is reasonable. Honda should make that standard on the EX. It is not!!!

Naturally, everyone at the dealership came around to take a peek and check out the middle aged professor who was buying the first Element on their lot. They were so happy that someone bought it since they have had a steady stream of people "just looking" at the Element since it arrived there on Wednesday the 18th. And yes it is true that they had been schooled by Honda on how to treat their Element customers.

hugenstein · December 2002

These are the instructions for installing the keyless entry, should be no problem doing it yourself.

http://www.collegehillshonda.com/instructions/03element/keyless.pdf

Best price I have seen is here($106.80)

http://store.clubrsx.com/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=HAW&Category_Code=HE1

The build your Element tool on HondaCars.com estimates $28 labor if your dealership installs it. So even at a dealership it should be no more than $178.00

sharpwmn · December 2002

Thanks Mathew. If the cost of remote keyless exceeds $180 with labor, I'll just say no and do it on my own. I can't see the installation is a job that would take a Honda technician more than an hour to complete. Can you?

varmint · December 2002

I finally took the time to stop by a dealer and rummage through an E. It was a blue DX model with running boards added, but not much else. I didn't take it for a test drive (almost left in an S2000, instead). Here are my "parking" impressions...

Materials - I was expecting Honda to use fairly cheap materials to keep costs in line. While the interior will never be mistaken for a Lexus, I was surprised to find decent quality stuff everywhere. Fit and finish was more or less top notch. The resin flooring was loose in a few places, but nothing significant. All levers, switches, and dials were rock solid. The exterior plastic can (and will) get scratched, but no more so than the plastic used on other cars and trucks.

From the driver's seat - I was able to get comfortable in the driver and passenger seats. They were not especially low to the floor. The dash is rather large and solid looking. That fact may contribute to the "bath tub" feeling described earlier. Visibility out the back and sides is fine. The view directly out the back is better than the CR-V. The windshield is fairly short (top to bottom). It's like driving a chop-top car from the 50's. The dash is deep and this puts the A-pillar rather far forward in my sight line. It's not a big deal, but the A-pillar is thick and there' the possibility that it will get in the way when taking turns. There is gobs of open space around the front passengers, but my 6'1" frame required the seat to be pushed all the way back. Another inch of seat travel wouldn't offend me.

Getting into the back seat was easy. Step in, turn, and sit. Getting out was actually the part that required thought. You have to take a step or two stooped over in the car before you can extend a leg over the side. As expected, the rear seats have small flat cushions, but not unusually small for this class. The rake adjustment for the rear seats is enabled with a pull cord. Not a sexy or easy tool for making adjustments, but understandable given the way the halves of the bench fold forward, back, and upward. The word "legroom" doesn't cut it for this vehicle. "Leg palace" or "leg warehouse" would make a better description.

Design - As stated in previous post, the design of the vehicle is more sensible than people give credit. The "rectangle with a cut-off corner" theme appears most everywhere; from the windows, to the headlights, to the corner markers. To my eyes, it looked no different than in the pictures. The dash looks to be influenced by retro touches, but is not carbon-copy design. I almost hate to make this comparison, but it reminded me of the interior of the Audi TT (only without the rich materials).

Cargo - The space behind the rear bench is not small. It looked pretty much the same size as the current CR-V. With the rear seats folded against the walls, it was cavernous. The floor is perfectly flat and the wheel wells do not intrude as much as I'd feared. The legless picnic table is thinner (more flimsy) than the one used in the CR-V. I've never had concerns about how much weight the CR-V's table could hold (when used as the cargo floor). In this rig, I'd think twice. It held my 210 lbs standing in the middle of it, but there was a noticeable flex. It would probably just rest on the spare tire before breaking, but it made me go "hmmm".

If I could slide the rear seats about 6" forward and create more room in the very back, I would buy this rig to cart my two greyhounds.

diploid · December 2002

Another review:

http://autos.msn.com/vip/jedlicka.aspx?make=Honda&model=Element&src=Home&pos=Edit2

He felt the bathtub effect, too: "It's simple to slide in and out of the Element, and the interior roof is so high you could wear a top hat from a classic 1930s movie. The windshield is huge, but even a 6-footer can't see the front of the vehicle from the driver's seat."

vadp · December 2002

Honda can only hope it will strike a sweet spot with American Gen Yers because no automaker knows for sure what that age group really wants.

60,000 units sounds awfully high to me.

moonkat · December 2002

You da man!
Great "static" review...waiting for the dynamic one.
Tnx

coltey · December 2002

I'm a little confused. I test drove an Element DX over the weekend, and I'm considering putting a deposit on an orange EX that will arrive late January. In the Element pics on Honda's site, they show a stereo that takes up both slots in the dash, while on the acccessory sites (i.e Collegehillshonda), they show a stereo in the top slot w/an mp3 player in the slot below it. Is the latter config what you get with the EX, or is the actual mp3 player just an option? They mention an mp3/aux "jack", but not a player in the specs. I'm just wondering which I would be getting......

Anyone know for sure???

aquaswimmer · December 2002

Hmm. Looks like there is a no charge option for axle ratios.

I cut and posted the following from carsdirect.com.

According to this it looks like the standard gearing is 4.765 gears but it looks like you can select 4.438 gears if you wish.

I had not heard that before...hmm tough call.

Do I want the better fuel economy and lower revs on the freeway of the 4.44 gears? Or the low end power of the 4.77 gears...

Optional: Select options and colors for this vehicle.

Powertrain

    Engine: 2.4L I-4 DOHC

4-cylinder engine with 2.4-liter displacement, dual overhead cam valvetrain STD

    Transmission: 5-Speed Manual w/Overdrive STD

    Transmission: Electronic 4-Speed Automatic w/Overdrive $800

    4.765 Axle Ratio STD

    4.438 Axle Ratio N/C

Wheels & Tires

    Tires: P215/70R16 99S

Heavy Duty tires with 215mm width, 16.0" rim STD

    Wheels: 16 in. x 6.5 in. Alloy STD

Seats & Seat Trim

    Front Bucket Seats STD

    Cloth Seat Trim STD

Other Options

    Monotone Paint Application STD

    Radio: AM/FM Stereo w/In-Dash CD STD

Destination Charge

    Manufacturer's Destination Charge $460



Option prices are for manufacturer-installed options and may vary for dealer-installed options.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- - - - ----------

Legend

This option has been selected.

This option's price is included in the price of another selected option.

N/A Pricing for this option is currently not available.

N/C This option is available at no charge.

STD This option comes standard with the vehicle.

Variable This option's price will be determined after it has been selected.

varmint · December 2002

Aquaswimmer - The different axle ratios are linked to the type of transmission. The 5 speed has a 4.765 final ratio, while the automatic is the 4.438 ratio. It's listed as no charge (N/C) because they charge for the transmission, not the drive ratio.

doct · December 2002

my local dealer was relatively clueless about that side air bags will be available at some time (I had to point out the footnote in the glossy brochure... does anyone have any idea when if if this is really happening?

nccareer · December 2002

I think we all are excited about the arrival of the Element. But here is the question we all have to answer. Is it a Hit such that dealers will be charging sticker (with potential add ons) for years to come OR will the excitement soon wane and will we be able to buy much below sticker?

I have made up my mind to wait for at least 6 months before I jump. After all, I cannot stomach getting toasted on my trade-in and then having to pay sticker and then some for the Element.

I am curious as to what others think?

ropedart · December 2002

I never found the Element ugly. It takes a while to get used to the 2 tone look. I understood where the look is coming from. To be fair the cladding is not cladding but plastic quarter panels. The shape is boxy to increase volume. If you gave anyone photoshop and a tablet to come up with a SUV. It would end up a little lower and longer, tapering here, rounding here and what would you get..va la... Ford Explorer or Escape or Cherokee etc. What I am wondering if the same people who hate it also hate the Hummer H1,H2, Merc G500 wagon, Land Rovers, pickup trucks? But these vehicles benefit from having more rectangular forms which are more pleasant than squarer shapes.

Remember what happened when the Ford Taurus came on the market as the egg shaped car. How much hatred come out. The bean shape from those Europeans. I think round is dying out for now. I think the new Sienna and Quest vans are going in the wrong direction-even more aero shape. If the Nissan Quest van took styling cues from the Xterra it would be a hit. Witness the continuation of the GMC/Chevy Safari/Astro vans. Vans should return to macho square lines. Hockey Dad instead of Soccer mom.

robertsmx · December 2002

I'm not sure how Element will be received, but I can't think any vehicle that can command MSRP for years, may be months. Odyssey may be an exception for now (if it continues to go on MSRP today).

I saw one parked in front of a Honda dealership today, with a few people trying to take a look inside (couple of them were curious kids).

s852 · December 2002

But I doubt it will such a huge hit that they could charge full sticker for "years to come" unless there is not much markup between invoice and sticker.
I am sure some dealers will try to price gouge for as long as they can while it is the hottest, newest thing.
Even the ultra trendy Mini is not as hot today as it was a few months ago when you had to be on a waiting list for months to get one.

aquaswimmer · December 2002

Oops. Yes of course you are right about the axle ratios. It would be too much of a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] for Honda to hassle with 2 different rear end ratios.

By the way.Has everyone seen this review?

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2209.shtml

Motorweek clocks a 2WD EX 5spd at 8.1 seconds for 0-60! That would be a good run even for a CR-V..

Maybe it was a cold day on the track or maybe Honda sent a slightly tweaked Element with bumped up timing etc..but wow 8.1

The numbers are very inconsistent on this car. I have seen 0-60 ranging from 9.5 to this test at 8.1...both 5spd.

However the 5spd DX that I test drove certainly felt like it was under 9 seconds 0-60 wise..hmmm

I would like to see more tests from the rest of the major car magazines..

Honda Element

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