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Honda Element

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Comments

  • 2004_element2004_element Member Posts: 13
    Contribute something newsworthy. Then be totally ignored.
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    Know how you feel, I got no response to my inquiry on another board about dealer pricing.

    Anyway, what is the advantage of buying a 2004 Element EX if 2003 Element EXs are still around and discounted below invoice? The information on the honda site is not clear.

    Thanks.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Jeffray - The advantage comes when it's time to sell. If you buy a 2003 in December and I buy a 2004 that same week, mine will have a higher resale value despite all else being even.
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    Of course. Let me see if I got the math right. It will cost a bit more today, say $500. If you sell the car in a couple of years, better to get a 2004. I kept our last car 10 years. That is why I am tempted to get a leftover.

    Jeff Ray
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    See discussion about AWD performance during last storm in earlier discussion, circa messages 2837 including picture. I was encouraged by the feedback to go for the 2003 EX AWD.
  • 2004_element2004_element Member Posts: 13
    I'm on a company car plan, 2004 will stay eligible for 5 years. 2003 will be elegible for only 4 years. My 1999 CRV is not eligible anymore.
  • wheelz4wheelz4 Member Posts: 569
    ....think I gotta side with Juice on this one, Varmint (re: Innovations) Most SUV (mini or otherwise) interiors are about as innovative as your basic decades-old station wagon design (with a couple of exceptions). Seats are more or less stationary (ok, a few slide back 'n forth a bit) and the seatbacks fold (or the whole seat folds and tumbles) to accomodate cargo, but that's about it. I think we will see interior innovations creeping into all segements...the big battle (as noted by some higher-ups at Magna and Johnson Controls, for example) will be in vehicle interior design. Honda put a flat floor into the rear of their Civic...hasn't been copied yet, but it does wonders for rear-seat accomodation. Due to intense competition, I don't think you'll see these type of innovations contributing to drastically higher prices...Chrysler has said their new vans will be 15% cheaper than Honda's & Toyota's. And Toyota's Sienna, despite trumping the Odyssey in interior features, for example, is about $2,200 cheaper for their respective base models. Competition and innovation are good things for all of us....hopefully what is happening in minivan's now will creep across the board.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you keep your vehicles for a long time, say, 7 years or more, don't be too concerned about whether it's a 2003 or 2004. 7 years from now the difference in resale will not add up to the difference in new car prices.

    In other words, if you can save a grand or more now, buy the left over 2003. There's also the opportunity cost (or interest) on that money, so you'll be better off taking the better deal now.

    SUV Innovations in the past 3 years:

    * 20" chrome rims
    * more bling-bling
    * huge gaping grilles
    * huge gaping logos
    * faux off roader styling
    * spreewheels, i.e. Spinner rims

    That's about it! :o)

    -juice
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I drive 'em forever too. The only problem I can see with getting an '03 at this point would be if you got into an accident in the first couple of years of ownership.

    I think there will be a gap in what the insurance company thinks your '03 car is worth vs. a wrecked '04, even if the mileage is the same. Any adjusters out there who could weigh in?

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think you can get GAP insurance, to pay for the price of a new replacement if something like that happens.

    -juice
  • crcoxecrcoxe Member Posts: 72
    I see where you're going here, juice, but so-called "gap" insurance only covers the difference if the amount you owe on the car exceeds the amount the car is worth (i.e. you are "upside-down"). It really has nothing to do with the value of the car itself and won't cover the difference in value between an '03 and an '04. While it won't pay for a replacement, it can get you out of the hole so you have an even playing field when you go back for a newer model.

    Unfortunately, in this day and age, so many people overspend on cars and end up way upside down, especially in the first couple year of payments. A car is such a poor "investment" to begin with, it's too bad that dealers will try to shoehorn people into cars they really can't afford. Oh well, another topic for another board.

    Since the MSRP of the '04 Elements is not going up that much, this may not be a real big deal. Steve raises a legitimate point though. I wonder what insurance estimates are based on? If it's a percentage of MSRP, purchasing an '03 now may actually be a benefit since the discounts are so deep. Pay $18,500 for an '03 that's listed over $20K and maybe you've covered the depreciation already.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Juice - Using the same logic, what has been innovated in mini-vans within the past 3 years?

    The "magic seat" was part of the package with the original Ody back before the 1999 redesign. That feature didn't make a big splash because the vehicle didn't gather much attention. Hey, some Ford SUVs have power folding seats.

    The folding second row is about it as far as unique features go. In my mind that pales in comparison with the plethora of new AWD systems, mid-gates, power-sliding roof panels, origami seating configurations, small truck beds, and other features that have been added to SUVs.

    Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled program.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I stand corrected. In that case forget gap insurance for a Honda, which depreciates slowly. Just avoid those zero down specials.

    The pre-99 Odyssey was not a true minivan. It was a great wagon lacking only a V6.

    The Ford SUV's power folding seats are slow and leave gaps for the cargo, plus lift over is way high.

    Mid-gates are on pickups, and actually I think that segment has progressed more than SUV have.

    The minivan segment was losing steam, but they've really picked up to bring back attention, and I'm guessing they'll succeed in at least maintaining segment share.

    Basically I think you'll find one or two innovations in any given SUV, but I can name about half a dozen on one of the better minivans.

    OK, I'll give the Element 3: suicide style doors, removeable seats (inconvenient, but still enough to mention), and water-resistant interior. Even then the latter two could be made even better.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2008 Honda Element will have fold away rear seats and a true hose-out interior.

    My fearless prediction.

    -juice
  • crcoxecrcoxe Member Posts: 72
    Right on, juice ... I'll add one more thing for the wish list: By '08, I would think more and more cars will be offered with a gas/electric hybrid option. Motor Trend surprised many (including myself) by naming the Prius as car of the year. If Honda can find a way to do it as a relatively inexpensive option on the Element, these things would sell like hotcakes.

    And yes, a "true" hose-out interior would be nice. My dealer specifically told me not to, not only because there's no drain, but also because the subwoofer is right on the floor and it's not exactly waterproof. All the electrical wires are apparently right under the floor also, so any small crack in the floor could be not so good.

    I'd also like to see one small modification to the clamshell tailgate: Do whatever the GM engineers did with the tailgate on the new Envoy. Now that's innovative. Love how it can fold down like a standard tailgate or swing open like a CR-V.

    Chris
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wagons did that decades ago, but yeah, it's versatile.

    Hybrid: how could I even forget that? I drove the Prius and it impressed the *heck* out of me. Not many cars do that.

    -juice
  • crcoxecrcoxe Member Posts: 72
    When you talk about "decades ago," all I can think about is 20+ years ago when my only mode of transportation at the time was my bike or my legs. The only innovations I cared about were which baseball cards lasted the longest in the spokes! Ah, the simple life ...
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "The pre-99 Odyssey was not a true minivan. It was a great wagon lacking only a V6."

    That's entirely your opinion. And it's not much different than all the people who consider the Forester a wagon rather than an SUV.

    "The Ford SUV's power folding seats are slow and leave gaps for the cargo, plus lift over is way high."

    By today's standards, the Ody's folding third row is a poor design. But it's still credited as an innovation. The quality of the design is not the issue.

    "Mid-gates are on pickups."

    Full-size Envoy. It's got a power midgate that seals off the back and a retracting roof over the cargo area. In fact, the Model X concept vehicle had similar roof design (without the midgate). The production model just got the rear sunroof. FWIW, most of those "pick-ups" are SUVs with a bed. Ford's Sport Track is a good example.

    The only new innovation unique to the current minivan crop is the fold flat second row. I can't think of anything else that is unique to vans. Even that is just a variation on the folding seats found in every SUV.

    Vans are getting better. No doubt about that. But not as a direct result of new features and innovations. AWD, big engines, luxury content, stability control, and DVD systems are neither new nor unique to vans. At most, they are just reapplying existing features from other vehicles. SUVs are doing the same, just as quickly.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Croxe - Growing up, my family had a wagon with a gate that slid down through the bumper and under the car. Pretty sure that was the Bel Aire.

    My wish list for the Element includes that removeable roof panel I mentioned above. This would require a glass panel that raises and lowers from the tailgate. Also the tailgate should fold down (as it does now), but then slide under the cargo floor like a drawer. Just to get it out of the way when loading/unloading cargo.
  • scottdudescottdude Member Posts: 177
    I was at a Toyota dealer and I told the sales guy that I was also looking at the Element. He said that since the majority of people do not find the E attractive, this will hurt the resale value.

    Think there could be any truth to that?
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    It is all conjecture at this point as it is with any first year model. Classic sales comment by the Toyota person about the competition but he may be right or wrong. Now, this can be mitigated if a) you like the styling and b) you intend to keep it for 5+ years. A Honda dealer in NY was willing to write a 3.9% loan with a balloon payment in 36 months where you turn the car in. I didn't ask him the resale assumption. You might investigate to see what a Honda dealer is conservatively thinking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You make some very good point, but you're going back 5-7 years to list innovations on SUVs. My dad's very old Land Cruiser had seats that folded up on the sides like Element has, more than decade ago. Studebaker had the power roof several decades ago.

    For mininvans, I'm talking about the last few months! The split-fold disappearing 3rd row, and the stow-no-go 2nd row are both very recent. Both are also unique to the minivan segment.

    Impressively, the rate of improvement has accelerated. I don't think that has happened to the SUV segment yet. Note how all competing minivans are rushing to catch up, and have changed significantly in the past year (Honda is about to also, their product cycle is a year away).

    Element is unique and impressive in its own way, but still, I see more room for improvement here than I do for, say, the Sienna and DCX vans. Honda could get it to seat 5, and maybe get the seats to disappear. Maybe even V6 power?

    Both segments are improving, sure, but the rate within the minivan segment is quicker, IMO.

    -juice
  • elementboyelementboy Member Posts: 11
    Hi all. I know there is a buying section, but it seems this area gets more traffic. I really need some advice. I'm buying an EX, AWD, Auto, w/ Side airbags for $18,750 + 45 doc fees, taxes, for $20,514 out the door. Is this a good deal? Color is shoreline mist. I live in the SF bay area. Thanks all in advance.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Elementboy - Is that for a 2003 or a 2004?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Is that over $1700 in taxes? Where do you live? That is more than 9%.

    Check for hidden charges and/or fees.

    -juice
  • crcoxecrcoxe Member Posts: 72
    ... Although at first, I thought it looked like a terrible deal. Then I realized your $20,514 figure included tax/fees. $18,750 is great for an '03 and is an absolute steal for an '04 (though something tells me it's an '03). You're under invoice - can't ask for much more than that!
  • elementboyelementboy Member Posts: 11
    I live in san mateo county, so tax is 8.25, plus dmv fees in CA of approx $130 plus reg and other fees, plus a 5 dollar tire tax ($1 per tire, I checked it out at a gov't website), so about $170 in gov't fees on top of tax of 1550.59. I didn't want to push them to remove the $45 "documentation" fee, but no dest. fee.

    I'm picking it up tonite!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wow, OK, MD tax is 5% and our fees run about $70. I guess I should be glad!

    You can't negotiate those, so go for it. What color? Trans? Options?

    -juice
  • elementboyelementboy Member Posts: 11
    I bought a 2003, AWD, EX with side air bags. I went in with a check from my credit union for the amount they quoted out the door: $20,514.56. The whole process took about 45 min. They handed me over to the finance guy; no real problems, but I did cause alittle touble b/c I wanted him to put zeros in the odometer readings, not leave them blank (when I went in a few days ago, I wouldn't sign the form to test drive the car, instead insisting that someone test drove with me; I also wouldn't put a deposit because the form they wanted me to sign was the DMV bill of sale form). He tried to sell me some extras, like lo jack or warranties, but I said no. I paid nothing higher, and my check was made out for that particular element's vin only.

    Anyhow, I'm planning on installing the keyless entry, approx $107 shipped and it takes only 5 mins. My salesman did pitch that acceessory again to me before I left, but I just smiled and said no ($300, no thank you, even if they would come to my house to install it). Other than that, it took 45 min b/c I and my brother and a friend read through everything before signing; I didn't want to inadvertenly sign something to waive my rights if anything went wrong. I also took the yellow copies off myself and put them in the folder I brought along.

    If I was a better negotiator, I could have probably had them toss in the keyless with the $18750 price, since it costs them less than $100 and other honda dealers will "beat any prie by $100". I could also have pressed the $45 documentation fee. I nenver did pay a destination fee of $460. Hope this helps everyone.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Congrats. What color?

    -juice
  • wzeiserwzeiser Member Posts: 35
    Is this the site where I go to find out whether people can give advice on making a decision between a Forester X (manual) and an Element AWD EX (manual). I'm interested in driving impressions, quality, and overall value, especially since the 2003 Elements seem to be about $3,000 cheaper. Is the 2004 Forester worth it?

    If this is not the right site, perhaps someone can re-direct me.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The actual cost differnce is smaller than that. Elementboy just paid $18,750 for his EX auto with side air bags.

    Fitzmall.com has a Forester X auto right now for $19,464, and that comes with side air bags standard, plus they offer head protection (check IIHS' site - best SUV ever tested). ABS, AWD, A/C, and a CD are standard. If safety matters, also consider it's an IIHS Best Pick in front offset tests, and NHTSA gave it quadruple 5 stars. No competitor matches that perfect record.

    Price is close, so you should buy the one you prefer.

    Element gives up the 5th seat, has a donut spare, and less payload and towing. Forester X gives up the alloy rims (still 16", plus a full size spare) and that rear roof opening.

    Both have cladding on the lower portions, the stuff on the Forester is like teflon - virtually bullet-proof. Some Element owners complain of easy scratching but I didn't notice that.

    Acceleration is similar, but Forester IMO handles better, it should since it's lower to the ground. Element offers a higher vantage point and far more adventurous styling.

    Forester's AWD is full-time, so both axles always get some power, while Honda's is on-demand and for slippery surfaces only. Honda's acts like FWD on dry surfaces.

    Forester will probably get slightly better gas mileage, but in the big picture both are efficient in this class.

    Quality on both is exemplary, near the top of CR reliability charts, too. Honda's warranty is 3/36, Subaru does better here stretching that to 5/60 for the powertrain and offering free roadside assistance for the first 3 years.

    If you're starting to feel that I like both, then you'd be right. Bottom line? See if the Element fits your needs first. The 4 seats and front seat belt anchored to the rear door sort of limit its usefulness as a family car (CR-V is better there), but its spunky and would be fun to own as long as it meets your needs.

    Good luck shopping.

    -juice
  • elementboyelementboy Member Posts: 11
    I got the shoreline mist....I prefer to call it "Titanium" =).
  • wzeiserwzeiser Member Posts: 35
    Wow! You responded on both my requests. Thanks. I've already reacted on the Subaru forum site, and it is clear that the Connecticut Subaru dealer is not cutting me a break, at least on the initial quotes (the Honda dealer went right to the bottom line), so I guess I'm in for some haggling.

    I do like the Subaru warranty, and I wonder if the resale will hold up more versus the "trendier" Element.

    One thing you might help me on: I can't seem to understand the benefit of the Forester XS AWD over the X AWD. The salesman explained it, but it didn't make much sense (he kept saying that the manual was different from the automatic, too, in both trims, at which point I got lost). I am only interested in a manual; is there a difference between X and XS? Is it worth 2 grand?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good low-maintenance color. Nice pick.

    Forester resale is good. My '98 is still worth about $8-10 grand, or about half of what I paid nearly 6 years ago. 50% resale after that much time is excellent, IMO, some domestics lose 50% of their value in 2 years!

    Element should also have good resale. CR-V does.

    Element is FWD, when the front axle slips the rears kick in, so think of it as part-time automatic 4WD. Both front and rear differential are open (unmanaged).

    Forester X auto has full-time AWD. Default power split is 80/20, so it too feels like FWD, but it's different in that it can be pro-active (i.e. send power to the rear when going up that muddy hill before you slip).

    The Forester XS adds a rear limited-slip differential. That allows it to shift power side-to-side on the rear axle. Element does not offer that even as an option.

    IMO both of these vehicles deserve a good traction control system, which effectively would manage both axles. Let me go a step further and ask for stability control.

    For now, either is adequate, with the slight edge going to the Forester for being proactive and for offering a rear LSD. Both will make it up your dirt road easily.

    5 speed Subies have a center viscous coupling and a default 50/50 torque split, but let's not get into that because that'll just overwhelm you at this point.

    -juice
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    Need help from the community. I would like to buy an Element for my disabled father because of the 55" wide passenger door. However, he cannot access the front seat unless we can move it back 10". The floor pan looks like it slopes from the back to the front and the seats looks installed on some sort of reinforceing lateral member. Does anyone know someone I can talk to about the way the front passenger seat is installed and can be moved safely.

    Thanks all.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt a dealership will help much, for liability reasons. Doesn't hurt to ask, though.

    Honda engineers the air bags and seat belts for a certain range of seat positions. 10 inches is enough that whatever safety features they built in will be compromised.

    I've seen lots of mini- and large vans equipped with ramps and stuff like that, but never an Element.

    Do you know of any organizations that help out in that regard? Here is a group that we donate to each year, they send us mailing labels and stuff like that:

    http://www.unitedspinal.org/

    Good luck.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    A little RT4WD reading... I finally got part 3 posted.

    varmint "Honda CR-V Owners: FAQ" Dec 3, 2003 1:17pm
  • jeffray46jeffray46 Member Posts: 13
    There are a number of disabled internet sites but most only address wheelchair cases. Some car modification sites talk about installing replacement chairs on existing bolt holes. Moving a seat is somewhat regulated in the U.S. because of safety rules. If anyone has insight into drilling new bolt holes in order to move a passenger seat, please post it. Thanks.
  • 2004_element2004_element Member Posts: 13
    Anybody know the 2004 Element dealer invoice amounts?
    I'm going into negotiation on a
    "2004 EX 4WD Manual with side air bags".

    Or what is the 2003 and likely price increase percent so we can make a really good guesstimate???
  • bigkahunaflbigkahunafl Member Posts: 128
    Anyone seen a 2004 yet?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not yet, but I haven't been to a dealer in a while.

    Is Honda gonna show any concept at Detroit? I'll be there on the 7th, so I'll check them out.

    Hey, where's Paul? Don't tell me he's gonna pop in to say he bought one then disappear for another 4 years like last time! :o)

    -juice
  • 2004_element2004_element Member Posts: 13
    Did you miss my post #2907?
    Pb
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Oh, sorry, forgot you had a new handle.

    So, anyone get gifts for their vehicle? I did.

    :o)

    -juice
  • 2004_element2004_element Member Posts: 13
    Yah,
    I treated mine CRV to a few drinks at the local Amoco station on the corner! Oy! Can she slam it down!!!
    Ah, well,... it's Xmas...

    (At least she doesn't have a drinking problem like the
    2004 Ford Excursion XLT 4WD 4dr SUV (6.8L 10cyl 4A) that was there...)

    Pb
  • bigkahunaflbigkahunafl Member Posts: 128
    Maybe you should have helped a brother out and taken the Excursion to an AA meeting (automobiles anonymous).
  • bigkahunaflbigkahunafl Member Posts: 128
    Ben Affleck goes to pick up his paycheck after a big job and arrives at the bank in a taxi that is an Element. However, they tricked out this Element - he was able to get out of the back opening the back door without the front door being open. The scene MIGHT last 10 seconds, so don't blink. It added no real value to the plot of the movie, so I'm sure Honda paid some bucks to put it in there.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    So he goes to the bank in a car that looks like the vault. =) If he'd taken it to a drive in theater... well... that might generate some sales!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How's the movie? Did he redeem himself after the Gigli debacle?

    I wonder if Honda did pay for that placement, given a taxi would probably be the least likely real-world application for a vehicle like that.

    -juice
  • aquaswimmeraquaswimmer Member Posts: 30
    Thanks Chris777, I checked out the civic colors at honda.com and they do have an example of shoreline mist.

    Looks like a tan/silver.

    I wonder what the situation is with the interior colors for the Element?

    Looks so far like there are pictures of the dark gray interior and a gray seats/green dashboard interior for the Galapagos green EX in Honda's press pictures.

    Maybe the Eternal Blue Pearl gets a corresponding blue/gray int?

    Looks like the interior colors will be pretty spartan in the production model. Quite a departure from the funky, colorful Model X and eary Element concepts.

    Ah well, I guess you won't even see the interior much with all the mud and sand and GOAT hair that will be tracked into those little boxy buggers. :)
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