Volkswagen Phaeton

merc1 · July 2002

I would buy the Phaeton for the engine alone. If they price it right it'll make sense to more than a few E-Class/5-Series buyers.

M

610looper · July 2002

to the many choices. VW isn't demanding you buy their car. It's just another choice, and if you don't care for it, don't buy it, plain and simple.

Post 197: The Jetta is over-priced compared to what vehicle? Entry-level Germans? Nope Entry-level Japanese? Lex/Infiniti Nope. Unless, you really think your Sentra, Corolla, or Civic can compare in safety, quality, options, resale value, etc. The best Japan can do is reliability, it has that over every other car make.

I digress, this is about the Phaeton. My prediction is that it'll sell like hotcakes and resale value will be good, better than Q45, probably on par with the LS 430.

lenscap · July 2002

Lexus cars in Japan are NOT sold just as Toyotas. Yes, they have the Toyota name. But there is a status hierarchy to the different Toyota dealers. The Celsior (LS 430) is not sold in dealers that have Corollas, but rather in dealerships with cars like the Soarer (SC 430).

The only analogy would be if GM had no brand names but rather sold all cars as simply "GM." The GM STS would be sold in the same dealership as the GM CTS, but not alongside the GM Cavalier.

Hopefully this makes sense. But the Japanese do have the status in higher-line cars, just in a different form.

ljflx · July 2002

They are talking about changing those dealerships to the Lexus name as well in the near future. The Japanese like any other capital society are quite status conscious as well.

vwguild · July 2002

Production starts on July 29th for the Tip version
and Nov. 4th for the 6 Speed Manual...

I believe all Dealers will continue to get the existing W8 in numbers appropriate to their size.

But because of the unique characteristics of the
Sports Edition, particularly the 6 speed, these will probably only be found at MarketPlace stores.

I say this because compliance with the Brand Standards Program is expected by Q4 of this year...and if you are not a player; you become a spectator...;)

merc1 · July 2002

Ok thanks for the info.

M

regfootball · July 2002

the Kia Lazer......Kias attempt to build a rival to the Maybach but sell at less than 20 grand!

lol

Its amazing how before 98 VW was crap in the US and now less than 5 later they will be selling 60k cars.

Not 60 "K" cars....but cars that cost 60 grand.

merc1 · July 2002

Well their sales have increased big time since then too. VW and Audi are comeback kids.

M

nyccarguy · July 2002

This month's AUTOMOBILE has a great article written by Jamie Kitman about how products should drive the brand and not past perceptions. He talks about the Passat W8 mostly, but you'll get the jist of the article.

andys120 · July 2002

I agree with most of what he said but I wouldn't confuse what should be (badge shouldn't matter)
with what is (badge does matter to most).

Part of me would like to see the Phaeton succeed
because I like seeing the established order over- thrown but I am afraid the Phaeton and the Passat W8 will hurt my favorite brand, Audi.

Audi will be all right IF they follow thru on making them sportier. That means the standard trim for all models should be at least equivalent to today's sport packages. Standard motors and brakes will have to be upgraded as well.
To put it another way, Audi models should be directly competitive with equivalent models from BMW and S models should be a good as the Ms (a tall order).

regfootball · July 2002

I am concerned about VW moving too high up in the pecking order and their not being anything offordable in their lineup...its almost that way right now.

It would be sad if all the German marques were 'too expensive' for middle of road income folks.

vwguild · July 2002

Fear not...

The W8, Touareg, and the Phaeton are all being produced to enhance the product line; not shrink it...

For years, as VW Customers have matured financially & chronologically they have been forced to abandon the VW Brand if they wanted a
more powerful or luxurious sedan or an SUV.
These products will give them an alternative.

verozahl · July 2002

regfootball, look at the VW lineup. Golf is underpowered. Jetta is, too, at the base level. Only two VWs interest me: Jetta and Passat. I'm not getting married anytime soon, don't need midsize Passat. Therefore, I will skip the Jetta and save a little more money for a 3-Series or maybe an A4.

Oops. VW lost my business... but do enjoy your Phaeton games.

bscblue · July 2002

Verozahl, I don't think Volkswagen ever HAD your business. And I'm more than glad to hear that maybe you'll be moving to the 3-Series boards . . .

merc1 · July 2002

You guys should see the write about the factory the Phaeton is built in. It's unreal. It's in the August issue of CAR Magazine. VW better sell all of these cars because if they don't this will be one of the more expensive flops yet. The factory looks like a living room with hardwood floors!

M

vwguild · July 2002

www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/

This really needs a DSL or T1 connection to be truly appreciated,
but if you don't have that, you will still get the idea...

merc1 · July 2002

When does the W12 Phaeton get here?

M

vwguild · July 2002

Phaeton & Touareg launch in Detroit/Jan.2003 at the NAIAS...available at MarketPlace facilities around
late May/June 2003 as 2004 models...

New Beetle Cabrio will start to trickle in around
Christmas this year; with a formal debut at the
LA AutoShow in January 2003...

nedzel · July 2002

The problem that I have with the Phaeton is simply that I don't think the VW dealer network is up to supporting that sophisticated a car nor its demanding owners. It took 7 visits, calls to VWOA, plus a lemon-law notification to get the local VW dealer to figure out they need to replace the shock top-mounts on my 2000 GTI GLX. That p*ssed me off as the owner of a $23k car. But imagine the owner of a Phaeton, having to deal with that nonsense, having to wait to get picked up by the local rental car franchise, driven to their office, in order to get their "free" POS Ford Escort loaner car. You can't drop off earlier than 8 AM, because that's when the rental company opens up, so you won't be on your way before 9AM.

How many people would put up with that for $60k?

My experience at the VW dealer, both sales and service, were such that I never want to set my foot in that place again.

nyccarguy · July 2002

As big of a fan of the Phaeton as I am, I'm not so sure about VW service being able to support a $60,000+ automobile. My sister has a 2000 Jetta GLS VR6 that had the transmission replaced at the 500 mile mark (which admitedy is a freak thing). It took them a long while to get the transmission in. No problems until this past Monday when she had the infamous window clips break. The new clips are on a 4 month back order, but the dealer offered to put in new cheapo clips until the new clips come in. On her way to the dealer (45 days out of the crummy 2 year warranty), the temperature light goes on as it had before (dealer diagnosed it as an electrical glitch and just reset the light). Dealer says her water pump has to be replaced (at 31,000 miles)! Not only does it cost $450, but they don't have the part in stock (suprise, suprise) so MY SISTER has to pay them an additional $30 to get the water pump overnighted!

A co-worker of mine has a 2001.5 Passat. When she brought it in for an oil change, the dealer didn't bolt the oil pan under the car back on correctly and it came crashing down while she was on the highway. The dealer insists they did noticng wrong and that my co-worker is trying to get them to pay for her hitting a man hole cover or something!

vwguild · July 2002

*AUTOWEEK* July 22, 2002

nyccarguy · July 2002

Excellent Review!

I can't wait to start seeing them on the road!

carjunk · July 2002

The VW w-12 was selling for ~100 Euros in May, with all car magazines projecting cost 60-80k in the US, when the euro was 82c to a $. I wonder if the projections of "value" pricing will still hold for the VW now that the euro has gone the other way.

The Lexus LS 400 was 38 k, but when sales were good and the Yen became strong, the price went to the 50s, never to return.

merc1 · July 2002

Well even at 80K the Phaeton is a "value" when compared with other 12-cylinder cars, the 760Li and S600, both being over 100K. Now compared to lesser 7-Series, S-Classes and LS430s it's going to be a tough call.

That said I really like this car super VW. I really want it to make it here.

M

whotheman · July 2002

people buy $60k+ cars are to get vehicles with God-like abilities, and to be treated like Gods by the manufacturer.

How will VW service treat Pheaton owners, as opposed to Bettle owners? How will a VW dealership treat a new Pheaton buyer as he's getting delivered in his new car, as opposed to a Jetta buyer? Is there a program in place to make them feel like a luxury car owner in any aspect?

Is the Phaeton better than the new A8? Are they built off the same platform? If so, why dilute their strength in such a low-volume niche market? If not, then why waste money making two different platforms for cars that will only sell 15000 WORLDWIDE?

VW dealerships have to build an addition onto their dealerships, and have seperate salesman, and seperate offices, and upgraded facilities, for BOTH the Phaeton and Passat W8. End of story. Their current approach is either cheap, or short-sighted, or just ignorant. All of the above?

Unless they want a 18 year-old interrupting the sale of a $70k Phaeton to ask the salesman for directions to the parts department for his 94 Jetta!

vwguild · July 2002

We are doing just that...VW MarketPlace & Brand Standards Program...www.VWGuild.com

nedzel · July 2002

Yup, I had that problem too, on multiple occasions.

[rant]
The local dealer basically doesn't have any parts more esoteric than filters and wiper blades. They even had to order rear struts for me! We're talking about the #@$%#@! shock absorber and they don't keep it in stock. Floor mats? That's a special order.

Vwguild, you would do a great service to VWOA to bring this message to them, loud and clear: I understand that things on cars break. That's ok. BUT ALL I WANT IS FOR YOU TO FIX IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME! Why is that so bleeping hard????!!! I know, VWOA will say that's the dealer, not them. But here's the rub -- because of the incompetence of the dealer I went to, I am now very, very reluctant to buy another VW, even though I very much admire several of them. And given the reports on vwvortex, it appears that my experience is far from unusual.

Contrast this with the experience we had with my wife's car, a 2002 Mercedes C-240. On the way home one day, the check engine light came on. Early the next morning, she called the dealer and they told her to bring it in that morning, they'd squeeze her in. They diagnosed it as a failed engine computer, which they, of course, had in stock, and replaced it before the end of the day. No problems since.

At the VW dealer, it would have taken several visits where they "could not duplicate", then a couple more when they tried various things that didn't work, a few enraged calls to VWOA, an appointment with the VWOA regional rep to diagnose it and determine it needed a new computer, and then a wait of several days to get one ordered.

VWOA must ensure that dealers must 1) employ mechanics who you would actually trust with a sharp stick and 2) stock a reasonable supply of parts.
[/rant]

wishnhigh1 · August 2002

I found this in the edmunds letters to the editor. I found this letter to be right on the mark.

Subject: Excellent VW Phaeton review, except...
From: J. Pittman

John Booth's recent review of the 2004 VW Phaeton was a delight (as the car appears to be) until the last couple of paragraphs. He opened the review by reminding us how, back in the early 90s, all those silly pundits were wrong in their predictions that affluent US buyers wouldn't shell out the big bucks for high-end imports from Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus. A few paragraphs later, he closed the review by predicting that affluent US buyers won't buy a high-end import from Volkswagen.

Huh?

The reason wealthy Americans won't buy a luxury car from VW? According to Mr. Booth, Americans require more status than the VW nameplate offers, since "the main reason for buying a luxury car is to lord over the less monied, and therefore less deserving." Indeed? How sinister these rich folks are! Maybe soon we can be enlightened on the clandestine reasons successful people buy, say, auxiliary generator systems, or swimming pools, or Viking stoves. Simply because they'd like to have them and can afford them? No, that couldn't be. There must be at least a few dark, antisocial motives that Mr. Booth can divine and then share with us.

But he has proof: Americans buy "chrome wheels, gold chrome trim kits and fake V12 and M5 badges." Sorry people, but the folks buying those things are rarely affluent. They're making monthly payments on those gaudy trinkets in addition to the monthly payments they're making on their used cars. The idea that the cheap shiny bauble aftermarket is the same market VW seeks to penetrate with the Phaeton doesn't pass the giggle test. Where were your editors during this very strange detour from an otherwise excellent review?

We were fitting our new Mini Cooper long-term car with "Cooper S" emblems.  Ed.

whotheman · August 2002

I don't think the Pheaton will sell in noticeable volumes until they set up an upscale dealer network/experience.

People with $65k to throw down on a car are going to expect better treatment than they get for a Bettle purchase.

prattster · August 2002

This's my take. It's gonna be a sales dud. Look the the A8 how many of those does Audi sell? And this is a luxury division from VW. The LS 430, 7 series and S class all blow it away in sales. It definetly needs to seperated from the average VW dealer for sales sake.

Firstly, VW needs to improve it realiability and quality control on its bread and butter line before it steps up to a high-line model and really improve its customer and dealer service which stinks. Luxury car buyers have zero tolerance for nagging problems in this market segment and price range. This is how Lexus really shook the Germans and still does today.

Remember, Honda and Toyota spent many years refining their high volume mid-priced lines before going luxury with Acura and Lexus. Those were sucesses because of shrewd initial "teaser" pricing, past reputation, great timing, high quality and super realibility.

The V12 is nice for marketing and all but it's goona take more than that to make a dent in this lofty segment. The prestige and name isn't there and that takes time and product reputation to build.

balticjetta18t · August 2002

It really looks like a stretched Jetta on Steroids. That W12 motor is unbelievably compact. I would think that VW would get the car pumped up in the European market and Asia and then release the car for the US market in major cities. In addition VW should only allow deliveries to dealers that meet certain customer quality standards. How about an unconditional loaner car available for any Phaeton service visit in the lines of a W8 Passat at minimum. All maint. service done for free for full warranty period and make it 7yrs/80k miles B2B including roadside assistance with lodging and food included.

Anakin · August 2002

I would agree that it looks similar to the Passat, but the Jetta? Nah.

As far as I know, VW intends to provide a loaner Phaeton if yours needs service.

vwguild · August 2002

read...check back a week or two in *AUTOWEEK*!
Try www.autoweek.com

cirion · August 2002

is a Phaeton with a V10 TDI (aviable in Europe, torque like F1 racing car) and the Autobahn in Germany :-O

party_guy · September 2002

Every company has its upswings and downswings. VW has been doing very well lately and this car represents its slide. Only a lunatic would think this car is a good idea to market in the USA. They should have put all these resources into Audi and focused VW on its true niche. I wish VW well, but this car won't last for more than two years here.

vwguild · September 2002

I have mentioned this several times in the past, but just to bring you up to speed...

The Phaeton, as well as the Touareg, are being developed for existing VW Customers. The W8 is a
transition vehicle.

For thousands of multi-generational Volkswagen Customers that have matured both financially and
chronologically when the time comes to move up to a more luxurious, high performance car or to an SUV, they have had to leave the VW Brand for a BMW or an MBZ. The Phaeton and Touareg will provide these Customers with extremely viable alternatives. Both products will be available in a wide variety of configurations that will fill a host of Customer requirements.

As icing on the cake, they may also attract an entire array of new *Conquest Customers* that have never owned a Volkswagen.

You might want to go to www.VWVortex.com and in the *Forums* section
under *Volksawgen* and then *Passat(B5)* you will find a thread titled..."VWGuild info on Euro Delivery". Read through that and you will get an idea of our level of commitment to this goal.

nyccarguy · September 2002

It has also been mentioned here (and in a few publications) that many VW owners don't look toward Audi when the time comes to move upmarket even though VW owns Audi.

the_reel_deel · September 2002

I have heard that about VW buyers with respect to Audi. When then would VW not try to modify its marketing of Audi to bring those customers in? Who does buy Audi then if not VW buyers? Audi seems like a great choice for those living in areas notorious for brutal winters.

Personally, I don't think I would consider the Phaeton. Thats not to say its a bad car, but I think my dollars would be spent on a more established luxury brand such as BMW, MB, Audi, etc.

I also agree that this car probably will not be around in a few years. The American public is quite fickle and tends to float with the trends. VW as a mainstream brand may even fall off in popularity for the next "big thing". I believe that VW valuable resources should be spent on the bread and butter vehicles and as I said before, alter Audi marketing and style to hit that sweet spot so that VW buyers will opt for the Audi brand.

vwguild · September 2002

I have to assume that you did not read my previous post...For a Bentley owner to not realize the veracity of our committment with the
Phaeton comes to me as quite a surprise...for in reality, although you are driving a Bentley, it is a VWAG product...

the_reel_deel · September 2002

Chill man.

There is a big difference between a Bentley and a Phaeton. The Phaeton may be a nice vehicle, but to even come close to elevating it to the status of a Bentley is ridiculous. I wouldn't even put the Phaeton on Audi levels.

dudleyr · September 2002

There is a huge difference - in favor of the Phaeton in my mind. I would take a Phaeton over a Bently any day of the week. Bentleys are a nightmare to maintain, are not that reliable, and performance is in thier own words "adequate". Yes materials and workmanship are excellent - nice leather, and matching woodgrain etc. My father has a Rolls (similar to the Bentley) that just needed over $3,000 of brake work - and it wasn't that much work. And with a Bentley you don't even get the lovely lady on the hood.

I would even take a Cadillac over the Bentley, and I don't really care for Cadillacs.

pluckon · September 2002

I've looked at all the competitors. The BMW 700 series is ruined by the trunk and that stupid Microsoft computer. The Mercedes S-class looks like a Ford Taurus. The Lexus sedan is very nice but not very distinctive. The Jaguar XJ8 crams the driver's legs too close together, and I wasn't too impressed by the sound system.

Every VW sedan I've been in has struck me as a tight, well engineered German car with a lot of value for the price paid. The Phaeton seems as if it will be in that tradition. The V-12's specs are awesome. To read them is to drool.

The dealer experience? I don't have any experience with VW dealers. If they're as bad as everyone says, then I suppose it would be a problem, although I must say that I've never been too impressed with the Mercedes dealers I've dealt with.

What I'd really care about was the actual performance of the car, its realiability, its warranty and the real service offered by the dealer. Bow & scrape factor? Forget about it! I don't know about anyone else, but I'm an anti-snob in that sense. Give me a great car and a dealer who loves great cars and who treats customers with ethics and care.

Screw the "super-luxe" and put the dough into the V-12 instead. My 2 cents, anyway.

Anakin · September 2002

VW dealers are inconsistent at best. Some are excellent, and some are horrible.

VWOA will have to pay VERY close attention to how their dealers treat Phaeton customers.

alman08 · October 2002

I have owned a BMW 750iL and Mercedes E, and it's just nice to see VW is coming up with a luxury sedan that is conservatively styled. The new BMW 7 series looks too futuristic for me, and the new Mercedes S class looks a bit too round and flat (only in my opinion). And I'm sure they both are excellent cars and look great in many people's eyes. I like how bold the Phaeton looks in pictures. Can't wait until the car hits the road

I guess it's just nice to have something different.

merc1 · August 2003

Can we talk about this car? Does anyone know exactly when it will go on sale and for how much? What are you thoughts of the this uber-vw?

M

vwguild · August 2003

November...What would you like to know?

merc1 · August 2003

I guess mainly how much $$$ (about) and since you're in the know, which dealers in the Chicago area will sell the car?

M

vwmanjimb · August 2003

the word that we are getting from VW on release is probably 1st quarter of next year. will probably be released at the detroit auto show. as far as dealers are concerned, the 1st allocations to dealers are going to "market place dealers" and single point stores.

drivinisfun · September 2003

Peter deLorenzo from www.autoextremist.com has been a fiece critic of the VW Phaeton and VW's strategic market and product direction of recent years. I happen to agree 100% with him . DeLorenzo has more than 25 years experience under his belt in the autmotive industry and this guy really nows the industry inside and out. The Phaeton, according to him, is already dead in the water. The car will be flunk in the market. Dr. Piech (Late VW CEO) was a genious but also a mad man with no control or direction. The cars we are seeing today (Touareg, Cayenne, Phaeton) are the direct result of his madness and way of thinking in which "VW" has to become all things to all people.

The Phaeton will inevitably cannibalize on Audi's sales and little market share left over. Absurd strategy to say the least.

VW has been, is and will always be the "People's car" not a luxury brand. VW Group's luxury brand is AUDI and it is been neglected...poor resale value, questionnable quality, stale model lineup.

So there you have it. the Paheton will be the beginning of the end for VW. Thanks Dr. Piech!!!

merc1 · September 2003

While I personally don't see anything wrong with VW grabbing a share of the luxury SUV pie, I do question their notion of selling a version of every Audi platform. VW now wants to place another model in between the Passat W8 and the Phaeton, in other words they want to do a VW version of the next Audi A6. Makes no sense to me anymore.

The T-Reg however I have to say was a brilliant move. Whats the difference between paying 40K for a Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer and VW Toureg? Neither of them are "luxury" brands. VW would have been silly not to enter the SUV maket.

Something tells me that in a few weeks VW is either going to announce the Phaeton's non-arrival to the U.S. or the cars are just going to start showing up at the dealers with little or no fanfare.

VW needs to concentrate on a new Passat thats less expensive and more competitive with the Japanese sedans under the hood. Ditto for the next Jetta. The Golf while a brilliant little car isn't what the U.S. prefers. It has been said that VW doesn't know what to do with the U.S. market, that might be true. They also need to build that small mid-engine concept roadster they just debuted at Frankfurt. A high-end Passat with a V or W8 or turbo V6 is and should be the most expensive car they sell, at least in the U.S. Audi should get all the truly highend attention.

M

Volkswagen Phaeton

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