Volkswagen Phaeton

Jaynj1 · May 2004

Speaking of leasing, what are the current lease rates for phaeton? My colleague leased it for 700/month for 48 months. Could anyone confirm this. Because comparatively equipped BMW & S class lease for 1100?month.
Thanks

JK

vwguild2 · May 2004

Are very specific to the vehicle, the lessee(credit), & miles driven...No cookie cutter lease available...

dudleyr · May 2004

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- - e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01769880

Looks like a V-10 TDI Phaeton may be available after all. I should not have doubted.

This is an unbelievable engine. 310 hp 553 lb-ft of torque and the kicker is the Touareg with this engine gets 20 mpg city and 31 highway. That is nearly as good as a 4-cylinder Jetta.

The Phaeton should at least match these numbers being lighter (touareg is 5,800 lbs) and more aerodynamic.

dhander · May 2004

The mpg on the v10 TDI is 17/23

dudleyr · May 2004

17/23 is correct. I just looked it up on the EPA site. VW has a huge error on their web site in this case. Too bad - 20/31 would have been amazing.

carnet1 · May 2004

I am back with some serious updates as you can look back in jan and feb all my posts,,,ok!!!!!!!!!
The car is great and is a serious luxury car all the great things about it are all well documented here over the last year in all the posts but here i am mr. believer in the phaeton to fill you in on all the bad things as well 'cause after all i have to be fair and objective about it ..
Bad #1 as i always said and now more than ever after a few months the navigation system is a pure disgrace and an insult after spending 72,000 on a car i was looking for a restaurant in nyc it took me 20 min, to scroll down to the letter p and it is slow and has bad road guidance as well i mean my 99 s80 volvo had a better nav and that sucked i wiill continue tommorow morning i gotta skip my computer now please be patiant all....thanx

vwguild2 · May 2004

Harry, Harry, Harry...I have been driving for 37 years...I was born
and raised in Manhattan..."The Bronx is up and the Battery is down"...

Your PHAETON is equipped with "OnStar" and phone service is included...Press the "White Button", get the restaurant on the phone and get the address...

All of this NAV stuff is so much cotton candy...10 years ago it did not even exist...But!!! If this is your only complaint; I am delighted!!!

carnet1 · May 2004

well vw guild i did call onstar and they are telling me that "oh sir im sorry we cannot help you at this time cause you only have the safety package and not the concierge package" which by the way was completely embarasing in front of a friend that was with me in the car at the time he says to me wait a min. you spend 70 grand on a car and they cant even include this $200 dollars a year service but whatever back to the point of the nav system vw guild listen up ill tell you what one of my friends have told me "you did not buy this car for its nav " but in any case if VW wants to present itself as the premier luxury car how could you not at least put in a system that is at least as good as a honda accord nav that costs less than a third of this car ,,,,,
bad #2 in slow traffic the trans. sort of tries to grab its breath a lot in stop and go traffic this whole jumping gears between 1-6 in street traffic is a complete joke and useless in my opinion but it is great on highways though its like they tried to create too much of a blend of a sports car with a luxury car combined which one prevailed more ,,,,hhhmmmmm well i think the luxury without the technology part of it like most japanese cars and its own sister company Audi......
bad #3 the back head rests keep on going up if you have stuff on the back seat and that is clearly a driving hazard 'cause its impossible to look out the back window through the rear view mirror i was thinking of going into my dealer to disable this feature we'll see ,,,,,
bad #4 no satellite radio well in the upper posts here vw guild said yeh its do able antenna on top is fine ,,it turns out my dealer says and phaeton customer care says its a bunch of hog wash it is not do able and the audio system in the car is not compatible at all,, now you can go out and buy a xm radio and install the kit the same way you would on a 1995 chevy with the screen on the dash board clunking there in the nice phaeton interior but $33,000 g35 infiniti's have satellite for close to 2 years and little $18,000 vw bugs have xm as well but no not $75,000 phaetons,,,,,
bad # 5 why cant you stop and close the power trunk with the remote the same way you can open it with the remote so you dont have to wait there like a fool watching the trunk goooooo uuuuupppppp and then have to push it on the trunk to close it
vw guild Q? what are the small defog buttons on the 2 front doors next to the window?
bad #6 the tire pressure monitor system sucks it never tells you when you are low on air all it tells you is boom "flat tyre" when its too late and it has happened 3 times and speaking of tires my dealer wanted $695 for a tire and when i went to the local tire shop he says sure $290 so i call the dealer and says its on back order which i verified so i said to the dealer look i am not under any circumstances paying $700 a tire because VW produced a car without replacement tires for it , I will admit the dealer was 100% very nice they got me some spare from a stock car and waited for the delivery and gave it to me at the $290 price in general whenever i had the smallest of questions or issues they have been extremely nice and responsive no complaints in that aspect in matter of fact delighted.
after all my complaints here after all the car is awesome against all said there are hundreds of features that are perfect and great and as enjoyable a car i have ever driven and the looks and waives i get all over is to the level of being hounded by the masses,,,well well to wrap it up VW is almost almost there and at the next makeover if it is still around it will be a hit and i still feel it is a bit overpriced for what it is right now but dont stop yourself for going for it ,,its a great car ...thanx for reading.....

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .if anyone knows: is the Phaeton's Sat Nav based on the system used in the Audi (excluding the DVD A8L)?

I am on my fourth Audi with their CD based sat nav lite, which IS slow, initially, to activate. But other than being dead on accurate about 96% of the time and useless about 2% of the time and half and half about 2% of the time, I love the system.

Sure, I don't have a color moving map -- I have arrows and voice prompts and countdowns to "a left turn" and "get ready to turn left" and "follow the road for 7 miles" or "drive straight until further instructions" -- but my system, and I assume it is the one used by the CClass Mereceds (that is a CD based system -- even the nav lady's voice is the same between the Mercedes and Audi) works great.

It does, lack sizzle -- and yes it does lack the sizzle of the one in a Honda or Acura -- and yes that is disappointing for a car that costs (in my case) $50,000 (let alone $70,000). But the nav system does a great job -- it is way cool when there is a traffic jam also.

As to the issue of finding the "Seafood Place" or "Bob's Steakhouse" by name, this has not been an issue as long as I know that I want to start at the "S's" or the "B's" -- the VW system requires you to start at the beginning of the alphabet and scroll? Holy waste of time, Batman!

In any case, the German sat nav systems (from Mercedes, BMW and Audi -- and I presume VW) are, er, "more lame" than their Japanese and perhaps American counterparts.

In other words, I have empathy for your situation, but yours seems significantly less functional than mine, and mine is, literally bare bones -- but it works 96% of the time "flawlessly."

With respect to the transmission issues -- this "a hunting we will go, a hunting we will go" and "Tip lag" is documented all over the Internet forums such as this one. And, it is NOT confined to Audi or VW -- any German marquis that uses this "manumatic" seems to have the issues you describe.

That won't make you any happier, I'm certain -- but suffice it to say that these "thinking transmissions" are generally very smart, smooth and silky. They are not, however, flawless.

My 5spd automatic Audi A8 would run just fine in top gear on the Interstate at 75mph, then when I wanted to pass another car and "barely" depress the accelerator, the car would p-a-u-s-e for a nanosecond and then violently engage third gear causing a great commotion "as if I had floored the car and engaged kickdown."

Both of my 4.2 V8 equipped Audi A6's -- ditto. My Audi salesrep said to expect this behavior on an Audi S4 with the 6spd tip too.

The steptronic BMW and the C320AWD had similar transmissions and similar "lag and hunt" characteristics -- and I could "reveal" them in a test drive.

You'll really hate to hear this -- it goes with the territory.

Someone, somewhere is going to confront me and exclaim "it wouldn't dream of happening in a Lexus" (or fill in the blank).

Perhaps -- but my friend has the big bad Acura with an automatic and that transmission is so anti-smooth it reminds me of my first stint behind the wheel of my first stick shift. Do the herky jerky, indeed.

In sum -- hopefully the sat nav is at least as good as mine (in a 2003 lowly Audi allroad) and hopefully there is a "software fix" for the Tiptronic -- but nothing you have described seems outside the parameters of "normal" as has been documented right here on edmunds.com for multiple years. Just for the fun of it, I went over to the Touareg town-hall and lo and behold, check this quote:

"1851 of 1851 Surging, Lurching Transmission by tregv825 May 05, 2004 (1:24 pm)

Our V-8 transmission [6spd Tiptronic] still is not fixed and still surges ahead suddenly when you try to accelerate from either a stop or between 0-10 mph.

VWOA continues to say they are "researching" the problem but no solution yet despite repeated e-mail messages and phone calls. This is a problem and it must be a big one because no one seems to be able to fix it."

This is the same issue I had in my 1997 A8, 2000 A6 and 2001 A6. Been there, done that -- if it wasn't so annoying it would be funny, VW and Audi and Mercedes and BMW have been plagued with customer complaints about the manumatics for YEARS -- of course, I foiled them this last time by getting a 6spd stick. Unfortunately, this option will no longer be available as of October 29th 2004. What to do, what to do?

Eyes wide shut? Eyes wide open? Beats me -- I would not have high expectations for any of these transmissions as I understand them -- now the SMG from BMW and the DSG from VW/Audi (or perhaps the CVT) now that is another matter entirely.

Forewarned is forearmed -- maybe Audi will come out with an S8 with a proper stick shift, maybe there will be a Phaeton - S ditto.

Naaah!

edspider1 · May 2004

I'm hoping a future Phaeton will fix the "toy" problem. They need to put in a real touch screen NAV system like Lexus, Cadillac and Acura. The current NAV is almost worthless. And real men don't use OnStar. Other missing must have toys - Bluetooth phone integration, Satellite radio, and backup camera. Phaeton is a big car. When these options are available, I'll be the first to switch from my LS430. I have a tip 6 speed tranny on my 2004 and it is very smooth. I guess you were expecting to hear that.

ljflx · May 2004

Not me. This 2004 LS is phenomenal and a 400+HP hybrid that gets 40+ mpg in 2006 or 2007 at the latest is going to be very hard for anyone to compete with. By the time a Phaeton gets to the things you just posted Lexus will have taken the bar a lot higher. This is not an easy league to play in.

vwguild2 · May 2004

I never enjoyed reading ee cummings when it was required, but to relive it here, in length, is almost more than I can stand...

You do not need "Concierege" to call the restaurant and get the address...

Your hesitation woes are secondary to "Drive By Wire" technology..

XM is compatible thru the CD link...I would suggest another opinion...

Trunk closing with the button on the trunk is a safety issue, and it is not necessary to stand there and watch it close...

The "Defog" buttons are there to defrost the side windows...The ee cummings style takes on a bit more clarity here...

The "Tyre Monitor System" in my PHAETON has been flawless...And you are incorrect...If there is a problem with a tire, puncture...It will first say "defective wheel on board". You should then go to the "Vehicle" display, it will show pressures in all four tires, or a caution where the soft tire is...If "Flat Tyre" is displayed and all four look fine, then you need to put in new tire pressure specs. This should be done when the tires are cold.

If you have had three flats...you are in very close touch with a vandal.

edspider1 · May 2004

ljflx. I'm certain you're right, but this is the Phaeton board. Even if VW adds the missing toy features, by the time they do I would expect the LS to have some new toy features which I don't even know I need. Maybe lane change assistance, who knows. And if they offer a high MPG hybrid, I couldn't possibly look at the Phaeton. They are introducing a V10 diesel, but it's MPG is worse than the LS today.

The LS has had drive by wire for 4 years. It's smoother than any past car I've ever had. Everyone can have XM sound, but unless it is fully integrated with the steering wheel controls, nav screen, etc. I don't want it. Even the LS implementation is lacking. It has full integration, but an ugly antenna mounted on the hood.

ljflx · May 2004

If all things were equal and the Phaeton proves itself and has good reliability (not necessarily Lexus-like levels) it should be looked at. It's basically a softer A8 and probably rides a lot better than an A8 which is too harsh a ride for a lux car for me. But I love the A8 design and the Phaeton gives you that same style though I prefer the Audi grill (the current one - not that terrible looking new schnoz). So if this were 2001 and VW cuts it I'd have the Phaeton on my radar screen if it truly has Lexus and MB type of refinement. But its 2004, I have no interest in outdated turbo diesels that VW will bring here, and with all the noise Lexus is about to make with hybrids it's a far different lux auto market that is developing than that of 2001.

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .and I will not elaborate on my previous posts over several Edmunds forums, that there are folks who are Japaense and German biased. And, from time to time both crowds feel the need to defend their favorites -- and, btw, this, as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing.

To hear some tell it, it is almost impossible to imagine how the Phaeton (or the Audi A8) even manage to sell one car when the obviously superior Lexus (du jour) is out there.

On the other hand, there are people who wouldn't walk across the street for a Lexus (of any flavor).

I say "embrace the differences" -- sure it disappoints me that the VW/Audi seems to be lagging in some "gizmo" or content areas (and I am the king of loving gizmos -- I love them so much, it is a wonder I don't drive Japanese autos). But, I have test driven and rented Lexus and Infinity and Jaguar and other brands -- and often found them disappointing in another area: "how they feel from behind the wheel."

To each his own. One more gizmo in the Lexus -- all by itself -- will not convince those who feel as I do (so far, so far, I say) with respect to the driving experience. I wouldn't trade the driving experience of my German cars for all the power assisted, electro golly-gee-whiz stuff that can be imagined.

I am, however, planning on looking at the new Acura RL, FWIW.

fish8 · May 2004

Acura RL with 300 HP......all wheel drive.......sounds like a great ride to me...

docroger · May 2004

Well, I have to say that the Nav system has gotten me out of several jams so far. I really find it easy to use. It's my first vehicle with Nav, so I can't really compare it. However, I just bought my wife a 2004 Sienna with DVD TouchScreen Nav to replace her '03 Volvo XC90 (which is such a POS that I can't bear to look at it any more)! So, I'll weigh in on the Nav system comparo in a few weeks....

merc1 · May 2004

Please tell me how VW's V10 TDI engine is outdated? Statements like that come from sheer bias against diesels, not anything remotely factual.

If Lexus makes a 600hp sedan period, much less one that gets 60MPG like certain dreamers on other boards say, I'll eat the brochure that explains the car! I've never seen speculation run so rampant.

M

ljflx · May 2004

No one is making this up about Lexus or Toyota. It's being reported in the auto mags along with their hybrid rollout plans. It's also been said the MPG will be in the 50 range, not 60. But regardless of whether its 40mpg or 50mpg that is one hell of an efficient powerplant that's coming. Is it speculation? I guess until anything is etched in stone it's speculation. But the fact that its been reported in a number of places is proof enough for me that something that trumps the market is coming soon. Given that the brand is becoming worldwide, the company makes more profit than any other car maker allowing it to do virtually anything it wants and is intending to change its image at the same time lends a lot of credibility to the speculation. I'm also sure that Toyota would love its competitors to have the same doubts you have. But I don't think that's the case.

This is a Phaeton board so this conversation belongs elsewhere.

Sorry but I do have a bias against diesel because of its past heritage. It's not the VW engine that will be outdated but the fuel its based on. The US market is a gas engine market. The hybrids don't change that. There are far to many gas cars on the road for the US market to ever afford or desire to change which is what would be required if diesel was the future wave. The hybrids are the newer technology and will get people excited and they don't change the fundamentals of what people do. That's the way people like it. In my opinion they will result in diesel based cars going the way of the betamax.

dudleyr · May 2004

First - diesel need never be outdated as it is completly renewable. It can be produced from soybeans, and guess who grows more soybeans than anyone in the world by far - the U.S.A.

Given our dependance on foreign oil, the unstability of its producers, and the finite supply of that recource, I would think that if any fuel has its days numbered it is gasoline.

Second - diesels are very sophisticated. I know it is a step below the Phaeton in size, but the currently available e320CDI. Has 350 ft-lbs of torque (140 more than a 530i, and 30 more than a v-8 Phaeton - at about half of the rpm), and gets EPA 27/37. This is at dealers in the U.S. right now, not some future product. Also diesel epa numbers are far more realistic than hybrid epa numbers.

In Europe the vast majority of all luxury cars are diesels. People say this is because their gas is expensive. True, but their gas has been expensive for a long time. The diesel invasion is fairly new and inspired by the new generation of engines.

Anybody bought fuel lately?

Diesels are coming, and the same people who defy conventional luxury cars, may also be more accepting of unconventional engines. The TDI may be a nice fit in the Phaeton.

pat · May 2004

This is a Phaeton board so this conversation belongs elsewhere.

Yup.

Maybe the News & Views board has an appropriate discussion for this recent thread about diesels. If not, that would be the best place to start one.

Now, back to the Phaeton...

merc1 · May 2004

I understand your bias because it is based on something far more outdated...your perception of what diesels were back in the day. Yes they did stink and yes they were slooow, no argument here. Again, just because you don't understand the technology doesn't mean it is dated. The Phaeton/Touareg V10 outperforms the V8s in the same vehicles, with better gas mileage. That is a real tangible advantage. You say the fuel is dated??? Come on now that is a bit of reaching. Well then again low-sulfur diesel isn't here yet so I guess you could say that current diesel fuel is dated.

M

dieselbreath · May 2004

comparing with the MERCEDES CDI: Automobile Mag reported the gas E-class (V8) hit 60 MPH in 7.1 seconds, and the diesel in 7.2
But the diesel uses less fuel, and the fuel costs less per gallon. So its massively cheaper to operate, performance is the same, and diesels have higher resale values and last longer.

The same will apply to the Phaeton TDI.
My current VW Beetle TDI is my 3rd diesel, after a Toyota Land Cruiser and a CAT powered Chevy 5-ton truck.
I would find it very hard to go back to a gas-powered vehicle, especially when it comes to filling up. And you can always justify a more expensive diesel purchase based on your fuel savings!

In fact, the new Passat TDIs are "free" for taxi companies ... because their savings in operating costs will match their purchase costs.

Gas hit C$0.99 per liter in Vancouver this week.
That's roughly C$4- per gallon, or US$3- a gallon.
If gas hits $3- a gallon in the US, then the VW Phaeton TDI will be the ultimate luxury statement ... I wouldn't be surprised if the waiting list exceeds 2 years!

dieselbreath · May 2004

and that car has incredible presence. It looks manacing ... dangerous almost! Cadillac has never produced a car that looks that wide, low, heavy, and powerful.
And within a block of passing it I met a black A-8 (first generation) and was surprised that the VW actually looks BETTER than the Audi! (a new A8 vs. Phaeton would be an interesting comparison)

Logically, the Phaeton doesn't make sense ... I think I'd be much better spending 1/3 the money on a used E-class turbo-diesel. But a Benz blends into the crowd ... they're as popular as minivans in Vancouver & Richmond. But that Phaeton is something else ... there is nothing from Japan (IMHO) that has 1/2 the visual impact.

Does any one else have any comments on the looks?

dieselbreath · May 2004

If you own your own business (like I do) what I've done is lease the vehicle in the company name with a higher payment and lower buy-out.
After 2 years, the company "gives up" the car, which you purchase personally for the buy-out. If I sold my VW TDI when the lease was up I would have made about $5000.
Maybe I should do this with a Phaeton TDI. My daughter will be 16 in a few months and will inherit my current wheels....

BTW: After checking out the Audi RS6 a month back I asked about lease payments .... C$1900 a month with taxes! Its a nice car, but ... not THAT nice.

vwguild2 · May 2004

only because you are from Jersey...:) Let me direct your attention to the AUTOWEEK web site...
Do a simple search for DIESEL and you will find hours of reading enjoyment and enlightenment on the true fuel of the future...If you are interested in science then I believe you will find all of these pieces worthwhile...

Why in the world GWB has endorsed Hydrogen; I have no idea...same can be said for AAAArnold...
OH! maybe there is a connection there????

Seriously...Check out what we will have available when the SULPHER is removed in 2006, as in Europe...at least in Calif. & the Northeast...the rest of the US is benefitting today...

merc1 · May 2004

Your take on the styling is similar to mine. VW/Audi just knows how to do the conservative-yet-good-looking thing better than anyone else, imo. Only the other two German luxury brands even come close. Well make that MB because BMW is off on something else now. Its pretty hard to make such a longish car look so good yet VW manages it pretty easy and simply...make a giant Passat.

M

dudleyr · May 2004

I saw my first Phaeton in person last week, and I have to agree that it is very good looking. Not like anything else out there either.

scottphillip · May 2004

I stopped at my closest dealership. They had only one Phaeton-- an introductory W12 in "piano" black. I didn't drive it because it was on the showroom floor and it was getting late.

I took a brochure, and didn't see any mention of the W12 engine. Did I miss something, or is it discontinued?? I will have to call the salesman.

BTW, my favorite feature is the "indirect" ventilation system with A/C vents that can be hidden.

vwguild2 · May 2004

W12 is NOT discontinued...Custom built orders are only available...
$94,600.00 Base Price...

A few "Premier Edition"s available for $88,655.00

bricknord · May 2004

I have owned 15 VWs and 4 Audis thus far in life, with many more likely to follow. My 2c on the Phaeton is, FWIW, that although it is a very fine machine, it will be a horrific investment. Although all cars depreciate, I predict the value of a used Phaeton will be abysmal on the used market. I'd like to see trade-in value of a Phaeton after 3 years. Not that the A8 holds it's value as well as some, but I predict the A8 would be the far wiser buy from a financial point of view. To me, the points that the A8 has better driving dynamics and some semblance of resale value would make a P-A8 comparo a no-brainer. Just MHO. A lease on a Phaeton, now that may be another story--very possible a good deal could be had, and the rocket-sled-depreciation is VW's problem, not yours. But I have to chuckle when I think of someone OWNING a Phaeton, phew, must be money to burn there, and someone fine with burning it. I guess you only go 'round once. Oh, and I won't even get into the issue of Phaeton resale versus an LS 430 or Merc.

vwguild2 · May 2004

Just to follow up...Resale value is really only a concern for short time buyers who should be leasing anyway...Old school wisdom...Pay it off
in 36/48 Months and keep for 10 years and have no car payments for 6-7 years.

All of my customers have elected to lease...36/39 Months, and I did one yesterday for 24..Residual 67% for 12K miles.

Conventional wisdom on this new product certainly favors the lease, and I wholeheartedly agree...

fish8 · May 2004

How long do you feel VW will continue to throw money at Passat's? Do you think this is a pattern through the rest of the year?

scottphillip · May 2004

Is there a separate brochure for the W12? I cannot understand why the brochure doesn't mention the engine and list the differences in trim.

Thanks

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .all the write ups pertaining to the Pheaton indicate that VW plans to "subsidize" the Phaeton for at least 4 years. They made a commitment to the transparent factory, to VWoA and to their shareholders.

They set expectations: "we're moving on up, it won't happen overnight and we have to spend it to make it -- give us 7 years, we'll build a factory, design a 'super car' and evolve it over four model years -- then it will be profitable."

If you're in for a penny, you'd better be in for a pound. Dr. Piech is gone now -- but when he was the head cheese, he came up with the plan to move VW up, begin a deliberate differentiation of VW from Audi (and we aren't there yet, it is an evolutionary process) and improve quality.

I don't know how things are progressing frankly -- it would appear that ground is being covered in all of these areas. Len Hunt, now VWoA's head cheese (no pun intended) was recently moved from VP of AoA to VP of VWoA -- it seems he is tackling a quality issue head on (see yesterday's USA today Money Section, which I think is on line). VW in Germany is reviving and hopefully revitalizing the product line and moving it upscale.

Frankly, I don't know if they can "wait this long" but I think VW will be transformed by the time the 2007's are hitting the market. Transformed, but not finished (transforming). But finished if they don't transform -- if you get my drift (uh, I am speaking only of the US market).

I read, speaking of Audi, that LAST year, Audi sold 84,000 cars in the US and 60,000 in China. Moreover, the current run rate can lead you to conclude that China will soon be (if it is not already) as important as the US and if the China Revolution (economically speaking) continues, China may become Audi AG's biggest market outside of Germany.

I assume VW wants to sell Phaetons in China too.

The US may always be psychologically relevant, perhaps even a bellwether -- but it will soon be a minority player compared with Asia.

Considering the potential market, I would say the willingness to keep throwing money at the Phaeton has not even begun to cool.

P.S. there is only really one way to get one of these things -- lease it for a term of equal to or less than 39 months with as little out of pocket as possible.

I guess, if you could get zero or super low financing, well, possibly, but I always look at buying cars like investing in ice sculpture on the Fourth of July in Texas -- before you get it paid for, it's gone, worthless. The Phaeton is certainly a better "investment" than an ice sculpture sitting in the hot Texas sun, but not by much.

Why on earth would you want to consider taking the depreciation hit on one of these high-buck cars (Audi, BMW, VW, Mercedes)? All of them have proven to be only remotely sane "purchases" if they are low milage, previously owned and no more than 2 model years old.

Now, I agree, therefore, that a 2004 $70K Phaeton purchased in model year 2006 -- as a used car -- might be financially "more" sound -- but I think I would still, even then, consider a pre-owned lease deal for, hmmm, 24 months.

My Audi A8 sales guy can't remember EVER a customer buying one -- he does remember ONE RS 6 being sold -- CASH.

I wonder if the 2 Phaetons sitting at my local VW dealer for 7 months will have a huge cap cost reduction "incentive" in a couple or three months -- I'll bet the lease then would be quite interesting too.

scottphillip · May 2004

They need to have free sodas and cookies at the dealers to be competitive with Lexus and Mercedes-Benz. :-)

P.S. My salesperson didn't even call me after my visit. It's no wonder they don't sell.

vwguild2 · May 2004

It is my understanding that the new B6 Passat will not hit these shores for at least year or more; so incentives should continue for quite a while.

Regarding the W12 question...The new brochure's focus on the V8 is due to the fact that there has been very limited interest in the 6.0L engine, at least up to this point in time. Fact
of the matter though...this may change next year
if the 6 Speed Transmission becomes available.
For today, the W12 with the 5 Speed is basically
just an extraordinary long range cruiser...Think
chauffeur and 130 MPH Berlin to Frankfurt...

ljflx · May 2004

Not likely anytime soon particularly for high end. Toyota and Lexus probably in best position for China which will be a critical market. US and Europe are where the per capita money is though and will be the bellweathers. China is the growth segment.

Still waiting to see my first Phaeton on the road.

markcincinnati · May 2004

If my statistics are not accurate, I will go so far as to say that at least the spirit of them is.

The customer acceptance and purchases of Audis has grown to near partiy (and that is all I have stats for, more or less, in my head -- over time the market will, I presume, absorb the VW Phaeaton [class] too, in China). The run rate of sales in both China and the US for Audi products is ~ 7,000 units or less per month on average. The growth of sales by units in the US has been steady but not very steep. The similar growth in China has been steeper. The population in China and the population in the US while not yet relevant -- in total numbers -- is relevant as there appears to be a growing Chinese upper class and apparently the stirrings of a middle class. Even if the percentages in these classes of total population are much lower in China, well the sheer size of the Chinese market makes Audi (and VW, by extension) take notice.

Assume that Audi ultimately reaches [sales of] 90,000 units in the US over the next couple of years and, barring an economic overheating and total meltdown in China, grows to 100,000 units in China. Consider that it is possible that Chinese sales, in units, may continue to grow and outpace the sales in North America -- Audi will certainly "pay attention" to China as a major market for its products.

Perhaps minor market is too strong of a phrase -- but at least consider that Audi will want to make its Chinese customers happy.

To the extent that customers in China may want to emulate American (or Western, perhaps to be a bit broader-minded) tastes, America will still be very important to Audi (and VW and other Euro brands). I am reminded of the Frank Sinatra song New York New York, for I can assume that Audi and VW will say, about America, "if I can make it there, I can make it anywhere. . ."

China's potential to be Audis (and VWs) biggest customer is, I am certain, not lost on them.

Ultimately, in sheer numbers, the US/North America will be a smaller unit sales market, and in that fashion may be said to be a minority.

ljflx · May 2004

So you meant China from an Audi/VW point of view? I had read it as an overall automotive point of view and thus was not referring to Audi or VW in my post. The increasing tourist and trade boom between China and Japan and the proximity for factory building etc. just bodes very well for Toyota in the future. Right now though VW is the brand to beat over there. Audi's are just not big sellers here and I'd bet the concentration of their sales is high in the upper midwest and even more so in the Northeast most particularly the New England area. I'm amazed at the lethargic sales of the A8. One of the best looking cars on the road (probably the best of the large lux sedans) and not desired. I'm an LS or S buyer but if you hypothetically could eliminate those two - I'd run right to the A8 over the 7 series or Jag. And if the Phaeton rides smoother than the A8 and had a track record it would probably be at the head of the class for me.

ffb13 · May 2004

well ,if you go back 5 months when i first posted you will see that my comments are on the mark.
the recent press release and p.r. effort/news conference from vw h.q. indicates that the golf intro in europe is awful.
red ink at vw is flowing.
they took this lovely car two notches up market and they increased prices and boom the floor fell out from under them.

and,if you read the phaeton info. ,more of the same with words like --dissapointement---,etc....from vw executives.
not only in europe but also in the u.s.
reason given vary from poor overall reliability record for vw to brand image vis a vis vw-luxury cars.

i wanted to buy a phaeton,but common sense prevailed...and went with the lexus ls which my wife now drives....even the euro suspension is no fun.

i am still looking for the perfect car and the more i drive and test the worst it is.
waiting for the acura rl....who knows ?
the s 500---too many problem areas ,mostly small.
will try out the new maseratti quatroporte,but having owned italian cars and motorcycles before,i am skeptical.
you have not lived until you are doing triple digits at nite and .............phufffffff,the engine quits......

only to re-start 4 hours later at 4 a.m.

never knowing what happened.........

the phaeton is still a fantastic looker ,and that interior is incredible.
but everything else is just not there.

maybe if they drop the price or lease i may swing one just to own it for a year or two.and give it back.......get it out of my system.

but ,their big problem ,specially here in florida is the uneducated,obnoxious sales people.and the rip-off service dept...........
they just cannot match lexus or mb,or other high end cars.....except in service dept. rip offs.

markcincinnati · May 2004

There are two Phaetons at my local VW dealer -- and they have been there soooooooo long, I think the paint is starting to fade (just kidding).

I am not in the Phaeton market, even for $50K -- but, @ $50K, I might "pause a moment" to consider it -- I cannot imagine that these two cars can sit for months (of course the dealer does NOTHING except keep them completely out of sight hidden behind some Passats at the back of the lot. And this is another instance of more's the pity.)

Additionally, I haven't seen a Phaeton TV spot in months either -- just like they did with the W8 Passat.

Just like Audi does / did with the allroad. . .

TV spots for the BMW and Mercedes can still be found -- as can product placements in TV shows for these Germans. The last product placement of an Audi was the show Boston Public -- the lawyer turned teacher had an A6 4.2.

So, the slow sales of the Phaeton, I would say I agree with -- but when I look at the Cincinnati dealer support, it is no wonder. But then again, if that $66K MSRP Silver Phaeton is discounted heavily, I guess it may make someone (like me) at least consider it -- currently I am, without actually seeing product, "considering" the 2005 A6, Acura RL, Chrysler 300C AWD and the Cadillac STS-AWD. The Phaeton, due to its size seems out of my league (and since I am limiting my search to the $42 - $52K price range, that is a factor).

Anyway, I am just not certain that the current crop of VW dealers knows what to do to effectively market a Phaeton. I am not suggesting that the car is perfect -- I am saying that the Phaeton, compared with its intended rivals is a bargain -- and probably about to become even more of one.

vwguild2 · May 2004

Although there are currently no TV spots we can be found gracing the back cover of the current
"Vanity Fair" and in the May 17th issue of the "New Yorker" we get the inside cover and first page...

Advertsising and Marketing budgets are being directed at Passat, Jetta, and Touareg...Passat & Jetta are both getting complete redesigns for 2005...B6 Platform for Passat and A5 Platform for Jetta; so the current inventories must go!!!
Thus the emphasis. Look for another PHAETON TV campaign late 3rd quarter into Q4.

Numbers from the "other place" show PHAETON Sales
for the year as 152/Jan., 152/Feb., 149/Mar., and 173 in April. Not too bad for a rather subdued launch...And I would suspect that the custom ordered 4 Seaters and custom paint & leather orders in the pipeline will keep the numbers at the same level or a bit higher as this quarter progresses.

merc1 · May 2004

" The last product placement of an Audi was the show Boston Public -- the lawyer turned teacher had an A6 4.2."

Yep, Ronnie Cook aka our wannabe senator's (IL) ex-wife Jerri Ryan. Good call. Fox is no-class station, they yanked what was in my opinion one of the best TV shows in years, right off the air with no finale or anything. Uggg.

M

markcincinnati · May 2004

At the risk of wandering off topic as we all seem wont to do from time to time, I will agree completely. I knew the show {Boston Public} was dying when they moved it to Friday (of course they also killed Firefly and The Tick, go figure.)

And in terms of VW, I can think of no show that has had VW's placed in it, recently anyway -- the Phaeton begs to be put into some show, how about Las Vegas (I've only seen it once or twice so if the name is wrong I apologize) or Smallville -- you know, make it Lionel Luthor's Black Limo-like mobile? Pure evil? In a good way, of course.

I mean even the name is kinda sinister. . .

ffb13 · May 2004

well, they have been advertising the phaeton. mostly in print.
i have seen the ads in magazines such as forbes -special editions ,arch. digest and departures (amex)
and have seen it elsewhere.
their advertising is very targeted to specific socio-econnomic groups but,these are not buying.............

i still think that a re-badged phaeton with a more sports oriented suspension ,sold through a different type of dealership ,not vw dealers --would have a greater impact.

and to sell an average of 150 cars a month ,or 1800 a year,maybe,,,,,is not realistic unless you are ferrari.
and most of the so called sales are really subsidized leases..........

vw 9corp._does not have the managerial talent that bmw has.

markcincinnati · May 2004

I don't think VW WANTS to subsidize anything -- however, I think they "Dr Piech," perhaps set expectations that this may be a requirement.

Now, I can recall when Audi brought 800 S4's to the US not too long ago and sold them all -- and mostly preordered.

I think VW is "able and somewhat willing" to be in for a longer haul with the Phaeton.

I cannot enter into a discussion regarding VW AG copr management talent, I can only ask where or why or how you have developed that point of view?

If I were "king for a day" -- I would have put money into spiffing up the VW of America dealership body, based on the whipping they receive here on Edmunds (and other sites).

But, Piech in his ultimate "wisdom," went for product improvements over service improvements over the "dealer experience." For all I know, the crummy dealership experiences in the US are limited to the US -- somehow, I have my doubts, but no facts to support them.

The Phaeton, IMHO, is a high value car -- I remember a marketing class in grad school where the subject was Sony TV's -- Sony TV's it was said were able to be successfully sold at Wal-Mart or K-mart or other mass market discount stores and still maintain their top o' the market status/reputation.

Of course this is backwards based on VW's approach, they're trying to sell high zoot cars at low zoot places without the advantage of ever having been thought of popularly as high zoot. Sony was high zoot in the specialty stores and was able to "keep the aura" even though they started selling their products "down stream."

Perhaps, in my own way, I have talked myself into agreeing that VW ought to sell Phaetons at Phaeton dealerships -- since they don't have the rep that Mercedes had (our local Mecedes dealerships sell Maybach's and no one ever comments about this marriage the way that we seem to read here about the Phaeton's being sold through VW dealerships.)

The time may have passed to sell the Phaetons through dedicated dealerships, however. And, besides, by 2007, VW has stated that their push up market, more or less across the line, will be well under way.

If I had the bucks to buy a franchise, I can hardly imagine opening up a Phaeton dealership with only two models to sell. I can imagine telling even the most expensive watch/jewlery company that they could only sell Rolex's -- no Tags, no Gucci's, no Rado's, no Bulgari's and certainly no Tissot's or Hamilton's, not to mention no Seiko's -- they'd go nuts.

VW has set its course -- I didn't say dug their own grave, I'll leave that to others here -- one more time I am rooting for them. The Phaeton is a great first effort.

ffb13 · May 2004

i reference to your post i have to agree.

my comments on mgt. at vw goes back many years when they defaulted the usa market to japanese competition claiming that their product was superior and as such people would buy it over competition.

this mind set still applies to vw. thus my comment.

remember that they owned the usa import market .
and lost 90% of it to the japanese.

now with the phaeton they did everything backwards in lieu of strong competition at his price point .

further, they failed to see and attack head on the pricing strategy of lexus.

remember that lexus dealers load up their cars with thousand of dollars in extras that most would not buy or want but have no choice......this is called addl. dealer profit.
in the southeast ,j.moran is the sole importer and he carries this to extreme.
consequence is an average $ 9,500. dealer profit on an ls 430 if sold without discounts.

had i been vw i would have drafted my intro. differently and would have come in at a matching price point vis-a-vis lexus and after 4 years when the name /brand is established i would then do as lexus did and price up.

yes,it is expensive and they are in for a poor roi over 5 years or so.but eventually it would have worked.

as they introduced the phaeton they are in for major losses to move the product and get it out there,and all the while,losing prestige ,or should i say ,failing to establish a premiun brand.

the other approach would have given them a slow but calculated positioning in the marketplace.....a-la-lexus.

and this is where the mind set of vw has gotten them into hot water again.
look at thge reception of the golf in europe at a premiun level..............the opel astra is eating their lunch,
and the japanese are pushing them into a corner as they did in the late 60,s --70 's in the usa.

as a stand alone dealeship it will not work. they lack the image and charisma.
what i meant was to re-badge the phaeton as an audi,or a bentley,and sell it through them.

also, if you get a chance to see their marketing book aimed at the dealers/sales force where they break down the phaeton potential customer and their product/marketing strategy,vis-a-vis the buyer and his potential car choices that compete against the phaeton you will then understand how mixed up they are.
it is this approach /thinking that is getting them into hot water

the vw dealers i have come in contact with lately are a big zero.........except for one in conn.this is also a major drawback for vw.

i have one of their (vw )air cooled engines ,custom built for me in a 1200 lb. 550 spyder ,putting out 175 hp- ( out of a block designed for 40 to 60 hp ) --and let me tell you this is one great engine.tough and simple.

they are still making some nice cars in brazil.

mbukukanyau · May 2004

Saw my first Phaeton, with a rich dude driving it slowly. It looks like a Wanna be more than a true Marquee. Dont get me wrong, its a huge car, but that badging does it in.
It should have stayed Audi. I would not pay much for it. Its a VW. But then, I do not have that sort of money.

merc1 · May 2004

Wow you went way back to respond. Anyway...I like the way it looks. Very upscale looking. If you take away the badges it is a pure luxury car.

I've seen a few around here (Chicago area) and they're always Black or Silver, good colors for such a large, well balanced car imo.

M

Volkswagen Phaeton

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