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Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    To be on topic, another great day for phone yappers, and only saw a couple slowpokes.

    First the latter: came off an off-ramp behind a Fit that was moving OK, going the arbitrarily low yellow sign speed, but that's all I ask for here. But once we got onto the surface street (divided 40mph arterial with limited access), the slow set in. Suddenly there's a line of cars behind the Fit, and a taxi beside it, both going no faster than 5 under the limit, side by side. I thought a guy in a Civic was going to explode as he changed lanes back and forth before realizing we were stuck. I had to hit the horn as I got beside the Fit for my left turn lane and zoomed by at the limit.

    Phone yappers: small woman in a Lexus LX sitting at a green light and then turning without signal, a guy in a delivery fan, and 2x high maintenance types in late model Range Rovers who were too lazy or inept to use bluetooth. No enforcement in the galaxy, of course.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Anecdotes are short, interesting and or amusing stories. If they are first hand accounts they are not hearsay as hearsay is repeating what someone else said.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, so these were 25 Nobel laureates who saw aliens climb out of your spaceship. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I've noticed how some people get the selfish, clueless, combative egos, e.g. shaking their fists at every little act of inconsiderate driving, at a much younger age than 60. It seems unfair... but it happens. Rainy weather seems to bring on that unfortunate condition for some reason. Colder weather seems to hold it off. Needs more scientific study, to be sure.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited October 2013
    Dunno, I see that mostly with wise experienced drivers perpetually carrying on about the evils and dangers of speed. 1975 must have been a wonderful time of driving, slow and plodding everywhere.

    That's one fun thing about my area, ordinary weather doesn't change the overall driving experience. Cloud, sun, light rain, etc - it's always a crawl. A heavy rain can create issues, and snow is armageddon, but that's not uncommon in many places.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    Doesn't matter what 25 Nobel laureates saw. They are not necessarily trained observers, nor do they have any evidence. The human brain is easily fooled---VERY easily fooled. This is how magicians make money.

    "Anecdotal" in the scientific sense means "presented without evidence". Even the worst lawyer knows that eye witness testimony can easily be punched full of holes.

    So yeah, unless you have a tail fin from that spaceship, or really good video that can withstand rigorous examination, you got nothin', no matter how many saw it.

    When people say they witnessed a train wreck, they have to actually produce a train wreck.

    Why do you think all those stories people tell about "why my car crashed" sound so lame? Because they "think" one thing is going on when in fact it might have been something entirely different.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are being very extreme on this, and not even in line with the definition you linked to.

    If a scientist who is good enough to win a Nobel prize is not a trained observer, I don't know who is. If 25 of them say they saw exactly the same thing, I'd tend to think they saw what they saw.

    But if one driver, with unknown credentials as an observer, said he saw something or other... THAT'S anecdotal to be sure!
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    Mr. Shift, all I said was that there is anecdotal evidence. Are you saying there is no anecdotal evidence of people surviving these collisions? You don't have to accept it as fact. I didn't present it as fact either. I may not choose to accept the anecdotal evidence that you presented regarding aliens but I'm sure there is anecdotal evidence. I just lend more creedence to people surviving high speed collisions than people sighting aliens, although I do believe there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and in some cases, much more intelligent than some forum posters :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    I only meant that unless you can verify the anecdote, it is not evidence of anything. A Nobel laureate can hallucinate as well as anyone, and there are numerous instances of mass hallucinations or massive mis-interpretations.

    What happens is that people take an ACTUAL event, let's say "blue lights flashing in the sky, and an object making extreme maneuvers"

    OKAY, a bunch of people saw that, and probably there was something in the sky.

    The PROBLEM is that it isn't "aliens". You can't make that leap without evidence.

    So, one person reporting blue lights, or 1000 people reporting blue lights, does not prove "aliens" or anything remotely like them.

    For this reason, all these reports are "anecdotal".

    If a person says they saw someone hit a wall at 100 mph, and walk away unscathed, I would have to see police reports, photos of the car, and a follow up as to the person's condition. Otherwise, it's just a tale told on a bar stool. I don't have to believe that "anecdote", or even 50 more such anecdotes or claims.
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    edited October 2013
    Yes, I understand that. Where did I say that what I stated was an absolute? I used the term "anecdotal evidence". There's even a page dedicated to that term in wikapedia and of course, it says that the evidence can be unreliable. What did I do wrong? I never stated anything as fact, I used the appropriate term, which for some reason you have a problem with. I get it, I didn't provide verifiable facts, that's why I used the term "anecdotal evidence".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    Oh I'm not trying to pin anything on you at all--it was the term "anecdotal evidence" that bothered me. Anecdotes aren't evidence. It's just a strange use of words. It's like saying this is an "opinion fact" or a "gaseous solid".

    Aggregating the number of anecdotes doesn't give the event any more weight. If 20 people report runaway Toyotas but none of these events are reproducible, it proves nothing.

    You couldn't convict someone because "6 people say they saw gene at the scene".

    Now if a video camera saw you there, and you dropped your cell phone, well then....:)
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    Mr Shift, what is you problem? Why do you continue to tell me that anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything when I myself have already agreed with you and anyone familiar with the term should know that too. But the term "anecdotal evidence" was not made up by me, it is a widely used term. Google it. Just because you don't consider it evidence that proves anything doesn't mean that the term does not exist. You seem to be trying to prove something that anyone who uses the term already knows. Six people seeing Gene at the scene would be considered anecdotal evidence if it was not proven by the police but that is the term that would be used. There is such a thing called "anecdotal evidence".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    Okay, le'ts not beat the horse to death. I think your WIKI article spells out the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.

    This all came about when we were discussing the Prius UA cases, remember? And I was speculating that many drivers who make dumb mistakes try to blame the car e.g. "I didn't see you because of a blind spot!" or "the car just started to skid", etc.
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    I'm glad you now understand that anecdotal evidence is not a term I invented to imply something has been proven. I brought it up to dispute andres3 claims regarding not being able to survive a head on collision at 55. Wasn't aware of the Prius discussion. There are tons of anecdotal evidence that I think are hogwash such as the MMR vaccine causing autism and others that are probably true. Mythbusters is all about investigating anecdotal evidence.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I had the pleasure of finding myself behind an Acura on a rural 2-lane (1 each way) curving road. No other traffic on the road at all.

    The lady driving the Acura was doing fine and I was a good distance back, too.

    Until we hit a downhill portion of the road.

    The lady driving the Acura decided that, on an empty road, the proper course of action was to brake... killing off half of her speed (50 down to 25mph).

    I didn't feel like stopping for nothing, so I passed her via the other lane. To which, she gunned her car and got on my tail, cursing and making wild gestures in my rear-view mirror.

    ---

    Seriously, what is with people nowadays? Braking down to half speed on an empty road, for no reason at all. And then frothing at the mouth in rage because others didn't do the same?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    I've been re-training my GF who hasn't driven in 25 years, and was once (so I'm told) a pretty good driver.

    Her lack of confidence is what causes this irrational braking...not knowing what to do, the instinct is to "think about it" while pressing on the brake.

    She sees no harm in this (I'm just being SAFE) but I keep telling her that it drives all the cars behind her bananas...when SHE brakes, they ALL have to brake...this creates the dreaded "accordion" effect, with a conga line of cars slowing and speeding and slowing and speeding.

    I'm working on teaching her to just let off the gas, or to use the overdrive cut-out button to "downshift" a bit to go slower around curves.

    I'd prefer she NEVER brake in a turn, but that ain't going to happen.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I've always been of the opinion that a good driver doesn't brake unless needed, like when stopping or in sharp turns. I try to brake as little as possible - the 7 speed transmission in the new car handles small slowing well, and I downshift a lot in the fintail.

    I took about a 300 mile road trip yesterday - escaped the westside sprawl and am now in podunk eastern WA. Driving with less population density is so much nicer - really haven't seen anything bad since I've been here. People move along at the limit, phone service is spotty so no yappers.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    You couldn't convict someone because "6 people say they saw gene at the scene".

    That's enough to establish that Gene was at the scene even without any physical proof. 6 people saying it is better than 5 people which is better than 4 and so on. People have been convicted purely on eyewitness testimony.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    and often wrongly.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    The instances where it is wrong are a small minority.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't agree with that.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Well you have the right to be wrong, just don't abuse it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Are we still talking eye-witnesses or did the conversation just switch to speeding? :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the point was "don't believe everything you hear, even if other people believe it".

    My current pet peeve with drivers---the ones in parking lots who are driving jacked-up 4-wheel or AWD SUVs, with huge 19 inch knobby tires, menacing push bars and tail light cages..... and who....creep....ever....so....gingerly....over speed bumps at 2 mph while I'm waiting to leave with a bagful of melting ice cream.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, you CLAIM it's melting. We don't really know for sure, do we? Do you have any photos of the melted ice cream? No, of course not. There's never any physical evidence. :)
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    I'm sure Mr Shift would like to tell you that there is lots of anecdotal evidence that ice cream will melt , but we all know what he thinks of anecdotal evidence. But Mr Shift, I could help you out. I'm sure I must have some video of an ice cream cone melting in my kid's hand :)
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Still talking eye witnesses.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I guess we'll have to wait for Fintail to show up with the daily dose of Seattle-area nuttery to get us back on topic since the rest of the country appears to be driving okay. :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    A local Chic-Fil-A has the drive through line queing up so that they block in the 3 handicapped and 4 other parked cars. The people in line often won't let a car back out but instead pull forward to block a car with people in it and the reverse lights on.

    I motioned to a 20-something in his rental car silver toyota Scion C that I wanted to back out in front of him as the car ahead of him pulled forward. Instead, He pulls up to fill the spot. So I started my car, glanced in my mirrors and prepared to back up slowly to fill the 10-15 feet so the next car would have to wait since I had my rear already clearly there to back up. All the 20-something guy had to do was wait. He would not have lost any time or place in his line.

    I saw the 20-something grimace when he realized I was starting backward. He thought I had overlooked him when I glanced in my mirrors. Good, I thought. I could see him look to see if he could back up so I wouldn't hit him. I just kept on moving so it would appear I was going to back right on into his prize possession. Then I stopped.

    I could almost see him pushing on the floorboard as he stressed out while I was still moving. Priceless. Maybe the next time he won't be inconsiderate to people trapped in parking spaces by the drive-thru line.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Now THAT'S inconsiderate! :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    that is also why I always look at the parking set up, and never take a spot that is cut off by a drive-thru lane.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited October 2013
    >that is also why I always look at the parking set up, and never take a spot that is cut off by a drive-thru lane.

    Exactly what I'd like to do, but my wife has a bad back and has trouble walking, so parking closer and using the handicapped tag is helpful. We also time our lunch stops to avoid the heaviest drive thru traffic from the local businesses and office towers there along the freeway.

    One of the Chic-Fil-A's nearest Cincy rerouted their drivethru line and eliminated the blocking, but now the handicapped is on the far side of two drivethru lines. They had a larger lot so they could shuffle their arrangement.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >...inconsiderate

    I made eye contact with the "young" man and pointed to my car and pointed along a line backing out in front of him while holding my driver door open. I can only assume he was thinking off in space and didn't understand my hand signal and smile. He did not have a cell phone to his ear.

    We had an appointment to get to for my wife's second opinion on back surgery or not, so I didn't have time to sit and wait.

    And the next visit to the same ChickFA, as we got in the car a lady driving a large Ford pickup (250 or 350), stayed back and waved to me to back out. I hadn't even made a hand signal request. So there are people who think ahead.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    On the highway for a few hundred miles today. A lot more LLCs than usual, and a few phone yappers. Highlight was a dope with a phone to his ear, big late model Dodge 4x4, going ~50 in a 70.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Saw a guy stop for a green light and almost cause an incident today. Also lots of idiots motorhomes/5th wheels/pickup campers out there - another category that should require a special license endorsement with significant penalties for refusing.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited October 2013
    Back home in the land of dense traffic, phone holders, and timid slowness.

    Trip home wasn't bad, apart from LLCs, who were heavy on I5 from Olympia on, and many on 167 as well. The passenger of an Explorer I passed on the right gave me an "I'm sorry" look as I zoomed by at 4 over the limit, followed by several other cars. Fastest cars on the road tended to be SUVs and big trucks, the same people who will whine about gas prices at the first jump. But I did get passed by an old Lexus GS going maybe 90 on a state highway.

    On my city streets today - first winner was a distracted dope in a Crosstrek who made it a point to get around me, then went around a corner at a crawl. That earned a honk. Then got behind a headscarf in a Pilot timidly going 25 in a 35 with a line behind her - yay for multiculturalism. Finished it off in a parking lot by having a close call with an old woman in an Outback who just backed up - didn't look, then proceeded to go 6mph. I have brakes and a horn.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited October 2013
    Two knuckleheads with children in their cars were drag racing MERCURY GRAND MARQUISES on Red Lion Road in NE Philly with fatal results:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9296167

    One of the women was reportedly pregnant. What the (censored) is the matter with some people?!?!?!?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Yeah, that is no way to treat a Grand Marquis!

    In all seriousness, though, that's a sad, sad situation, and it sounds like there's a little boy out there now that will grow up not knowing his mother for no good reason at all.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Too many people are complete idiots who shouldn't be able to breed at all.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    A local annoyance in my neighborhood has popped up. A few blocks away there's a construction project with a lot of excavation, probably for a condo highrise that will mostly be sold to Chinese "investors" looking for an escape route when things get hot at home. Large (and often neglected looking) tractor trailer haulers line up at the bottom of the hill on one side, go about halfway up to pick up dirt, then continue on to the bottom at the other side, going to places unknown. I live just over the crest on their journey away. The driving style seems to be to move like a bat out of heck :) on the way out, then quickly engine/compression brake on the way down, then slam on the brakes at the bottom of the hill, as there is a light. So I hear roaring engine, then downshifting engine, then screeching brakes. Over and over. I am waiting for a rear end collision at the bottom of the hill, hopefully involving a rich local who will take the company and city both to task, as the latter is no doubt allowing a lot to be "business friendly". I guess in a devolved new economy that socializes losses and privatizes profits, many sacrificing for the good of a few makes sense.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I meant both cars going 55 MPH head-on for a 110 MPH impact. Highly unlikely to be survived, just like one with a 200 MPH impact (both cars going 100 MPH).

    The point is that we can't live our lives at the unreasonable expense of time, money, and resources just so you can eek out .0000001% more safety.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Why would a driver on a German autobahn be held responsible for some damages from an accident if not at fault???
    ___________

    For the same reasons a Judge Judy might assign partial blame to a drunken uninsured undocumented unlicensed driver involved in an accident that really wasn't there fault.

    I don't agree with this "judicial" procedure, but some seem to think it deserves consideration. I think it breeds the moral hazard of people deliberately causing accidents with cars they know to be "breaking the law in some way."
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Higher insurance if speed limits went to 100 MPH?
    ___________________________________________

    Actually, as is usually the case with your statements, the opposite is true.

    For multiple reasons:

    1) You are assuming accidents will go up; I know they will go down (look at the Autobahn).

    2) Higher speed limits mean less speeding tickets which means less rate surcharges.

    3) Less accidents means less injuries and less fatalities (along with less body shop and tow truck expenses).

    4) I don't buy your higher maintenance costs argument. Most cars today are designed to handle higher speeds just fine, and with higher speeds the car will be off more time than it spends being on going slow.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think that's pretty clear. The Germans have figured out there's a direct positive correlation between speed and risk of accidents. So if a driver decides to ignore the warning speed limits on the autobahn, they are viewed as having contributed to the accident even if not legally held at fault.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What is the risk of injury or fatality with an accident at 100+ mph vs same accident at, say, 55-65 mph? I'll bet the risk is higher at 100+ mph. Which is why insurance rates will go up. What's the higher cost claim: a collision that only damages a car, or a collision that also causes serious injury or death?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Actually, you are more likely to meet up with the deer going slower, as by going slower you could have the following potential scenarios:

    1) Avoid the deer by slamming the brakes hardest possible.
    2) Avoid the deer by hitting the brakes fairly hard.
    3) Avoid the deer by quickly applying the brakes with some force.
    4) Avoid the deer with average brake force.
    5) Slightly slow down with brakes to avoid getting too close to the deer.

    By going faster you can scoot by the deer before it ever crosses and avoid wasting gas hitting the brakes.

    Going faster is not less safe in any way shape or form. You can only make it seem less safe when you add other variables such as saying there is more road traffic for cars than air traffic for airplanes. When you say that I point out that speed limits are not designed for high traffic scenarios in mind.

    Just because the deer doesn't hit you doesn't mean it wouldn't alter your path and speed.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Of course the severity of an accident goes up with increased speeds. But insurance rates will not go up because accidents will go down.

    100x1 is still less than 20 x 10.

    However, you ignore the biggest insurance money maker of all, surcharges on speeding tickets. Trust me, insurance companies are only against higher speed limits because of this reason alone.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    But insurance rates will not go up because accidents will go down.

    Sorry, just as you don't believe anything I have to say, your just saying "because I said so" isn't quite good enough for me to buy that accident rates will magically decrease once speed limits on US highways go to 100+ mph. And as even you admit, severity of accidents, meaning greater property damage and human casualties, will increase with increased speed limits.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Speaking of eye witnesses I challenge any officer of the law to guesstimate my speeds accurately in a parking lot at distances of over 500 to 1,500 feet.

    The idea of officer's accurately estimating the moving speed of a car at over 1,000 feet is laughable to me.

    I'll pay $100 an hour for the officer's time to prove them wrong.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    You don't have to take my word for it, there's actual live evidence from the real world (see Autobahn).

    Want more? OK. When speed limits went from 55 to 65 accidents didn't go up. When speed limits went from 65 to 70 or 75 accidents didn't go up. In fact, as speed limits have increased at a snails pace (but in one direction, only up the past 30 years, accidents have gone nothing but down; except just this last year).

    I'm still waiting on data for Utah and Texas' 80 and 85 MPH zones. For what it's worth, I believe they are not in the top 5 for car insurance costs vs. the 50 states.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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