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Ford Freestyle - Taurus X

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Comments

  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    that's indicative of the cost of the trans fluid, not the trans...
  • pnewbypnewby Member Posts: 277
    :confuse: so the trans fluid isn't part of the total cost?
  • yellowtigeryellowtiger Member Posts: 5
    Just couple of days ago I drove my Freestyle (07 SEL AWD)from BC interior to Vancouver. On the way I've to climb up and down 5000ft. and the car preforms well. Most of the time running between 70-80MPH and on long uphills can overtake alot of guys. I agreed that the Freestyle is a little bit lagging in starting but once rolling its a good preformer.
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    "I've read reviews saying the engine was underpowered, but I don't recall any negative reviews on the transmission."

    From the Detroit News. Ford's own hometown paper!

    "Ford's CVT, a gutless -- I mean, gearless -- transmission used belts and pulleys to improve fuel economy. But it also made the car sound like poorly played bagpipes by keeping the engine at higher-than-normal sound revs."

    Love your CVT all you want. But Ford would have been crazy to continue using it. Despite it's merits, it got lousy reviews, it was too expensive to build, and most Ford customers simply didn't want it.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    CVTs provides a smoother drive plus better fuel economy than a traditional automatic and stronger acceleration than a stick-shift. The CVT is the automatic transmission of the future, and I'm glad to see Ford embracing this technology. http://cars.about.com/od/2001/fr/05_FreestyleAWD.htm

    The CVT makes the best use of the engine's power, and keeps it wide open under acceleration as the transmission ratios change. Because of the stepless CVT, there are no discrete shifts, for very smooth operationhttp://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/02/22/000751.html

    Favorite Features
    We really like the combination of the engine and the CVT. Very smooth and just enough power and plenty when you need it for passing. Fuel mileage has been about 22 combined and 26+ on the one trip we took so far at highway speeds.
    http://www.edmunds.com/ford/freestyle/2007/consumerreview.html
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Ancient reviews from 2004 don't matter much now. The CVT is clearly anything but "the automatic transmission of the future,". The marketplace has spoken. Loud and clear.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The marketplace has spoken. Loud and clear. There is no evidence that you provided showing that the CVT had any negative impact on FS sales.

    The article that you posted, which was negative on the CVT simply states that one author's opinion. The other articles I pulled from a quick Google search were just to show how easy it is to find articles supporting whatever point of view you want.

    I would contend that the CVT or some type of continuous transmission will be the transmission of the future because of the points in the "ancient" 3 year old articles.
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    "There is no evidence that you provided showing that the CVT had any negative impact on FS sales."

    What better evidence do I need other than both are gone after only three years?
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    neither does a bad review from some desk writer in detroit. that review I'm sure is not a lot newer than the 3 positive ones found to support the cvt.

    as for the market.... baaaahhhhh... must have traditional automatic....cannot wrap brain around the idea that anything else might be better.... must be like everyone else.

    it's always safer to follow...the problem with that is that is exactly what has gotten ford into the mess it's in, following. they lead the market with the f150/variants, they have design talent hidden somewhere, they are just managed by idiots that see the safe route as the way out of this mess. the taurus lead the mid size sedan market when introduced originally, they need another one of those or there is no coming back. ford needs some singular vision at the helm not boardroom consensus for the route out.

    ford's seen as an idiot and oft criticized for adopting it in part of its line yet you hear no one complaining that it has been adopted by audi, dodge, nissan, subaru(abroad), gm & others. I guess the great idea of infinite gearing between high/low ratios escapes the market. a limited amount of gears with more moving parts must be a better solution to the technological question of how to get the power to the road in 80% of the driving americans do.

    the cvt failed for a big reasons the fs did, poorly marketed by dealers that didn't know what they were and took no time to educate themselves or the customers about the benefits. combine a dumb name(FS) with bs reviews about it being underpowered(inaccurrate as it was faster than its competition when introduced) and you have not helped a great product have even a good shot at success.

    the cvt is a bit soft off the line, that's the only downside to it and that's not even that big of a deal as its a CUV not a drag racer.

    the market is more of a you can lead a sheep to water but you can't make it drink kind of thing...to its detriment...
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    "that review I'm sure is not a lot newer than the 3 positive ones found to support the cvt."

    The Detroit News comment I quoted is from 8 days ago.

    Yes, the marketing of the Freestyle was very badly botched. We agree there. In fact, I feel that it was an absolute textbook case in how not to bring a new vehicle to market. Lets hope Billy-boy plays a awful lot of golf, and just lets Mr. Mullaly run things from here on.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    consider me corrected...

    that review is more than a little suprise then as what's the point of it with the fact teh FS is dead and the T-reX takes that corner of ford's cuv attack. sounds like someone at ford peed his wheaties as opposed to any real and impartial review of a cvt.
  • stmssstmss Member Posts: 206
    as for the market.... baaaahhhhh... must have traditional automatic....cannot wrap brain around the idea that anything else might be better.... must be like everyone else.

    Eaxctly - look how long it took to get rid of push rods. Nobody want to be a pioneer. There are only a few manufacturers (or maybe none now) left willing to try and pull the market.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Remember, the Highlander Hybrid is still CVT. Maybe hybrid buyers are less traditional in their tastes.
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Hybrid buyers have no choice. All hybrid vehicles have a CVT. The additional cost of a CVT is not a factor, because people are willing to spend thousands more than normal just to get a hybrid vehicle. Most of them have no idea what kind of transmission is in the darn thing.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    "What better evidence do I need other than both are gone after only three years? "

    Correlation does not imply causation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

    Read the paragraph on the link.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    i'd argue the b****fest about it being underpowered was what didn't help sales as I'm sure a lot of people believe a lot of what they read so they discounted it. The cvt, while no rocket off the line once you realize the foot has to go TO THE FLOOR to get all the ponies going it goes quite well... nobobdy talked about that little point.

    ford didn't educate it's dealers about how to sell this thing yet alone it customer's and its advantages. Any customer who found/bought one had to go find the info in print or web, read it, and then pursue the test drive. the other scenario I suspect was a salesman trying to save a sale. He's watching an explorer person who just realized they weren't what they wanted so on the way to the exit the saelsman says oh by the way I have this over here... that was the biggest cause of this debacle...

    the cvt is not causing nissan, dodge, gm, toyota, audi, or any other manufacturer who uses it from selling its cars. maybe if they embraced the difference from the start as opposed to keeping it the red headed stepchild of the transmission division.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    What better evidence do I need other than both are gone after only three years?

    You might try a course in logic. ;)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    The cvt, while no rocket off the line once you realize the foot has to go TO THE FLOOR to get all the ponies going it goes quite well... nobobdy talked about that little point.

    ford didn't educate it's dealers about how to sell this thing yet alone it customer's and its advantages


    Actually, my local dealer here DID encourage me to FLOOR the accelerator when I was driving it, to see what it could do.

    Reminder to self: don't buy any from there that have any miles on them. ;)

    I don't see how it's such a complicated subject: want to go faster? push on accelerator more. Pretty simple, really. :P
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Hybrid buyers have no choice. All hybrid vehicles have a CVT. "

    I believe you are correct at this time, but hybrids do not require CVT. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic hybrids were both available with stick shift as well as CVT. I don't think the MT is available any more on the Civic, however. The Insight is discontinued for 2008.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    This is off topic but i'll finish it with this.

    All "FULL HYBRIDS" on the market right now use a CVT. The same one actually from Aisen.

    Honda and GM make a "Mild Hybrid" and therefore can use a different trans.

    Full Hybrid = full electric motor only launch and full regenerative braking.

    Mild hybrid = electric ASSIST launch and mild regenerative braking.

    This is a basic design difference. The Civic Hybrid is a great little car that gets really great MPG. But you can buy a new Ford Focus for about $10,000 less. That buys a lot of gas.

    Mark.
  • prairiedogprairiedog Member Posts: 8
    Re: CVT. When I was making my decision of whether to wait for the 08 or purchase an 07 Freestyle, I asked two independent mechanics what they thought of the CVT. Both advised against it and said to 'wait' until all the 'bugs' get worked out of them. I did my own research and actually was compelled to buy the 07 because I wanted to get the CVT before it was dumped in the change over. I am sure I am not the only one who has been advised this way.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I asked two independent mechanics what they thought of the CVT. Both advised against it and said to 'wait' until all the 'bugs' get worked out of them

    Mechanics always spew stuff like this. :P
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Yes. They've only been around since the time of Michelangelo, who, by the way, designed the first one. Another couple of centuries, and they should have all those bugs worked out.

    "Mechanics" like these are another piece to the puzzle of why the American public don't seem to want a CVT in their car. Give Ford credit for trying it anyway.
  • northlakesnorthlakes Member Posts: 368
    My Freestyle and its "Collector's item CVT" is almost 3 years old. I expect when it reaches ten years, we will still be dialoging about "is the CVT reliable?" The CVT does not need to be perfect, it merely needs to be as reliable as the typical multi-speed automatic transmission (and some of those aren't so hot).

    No one is dialoging about how reliable the throttle-by-wire system is in the Freestyle / Taurus X. Isn't that also unproven? I think it is pretty good, personally. Many people didn't know they were driving without a mechanical throttle cable. In fact, many couldn't tell.

    Certain things become hot topics because people fear the unknown. If I didn't read in Automotive Week about the engineering that went into this CVT, and note that Ford has been using CVTs in Europe for years before the Freestyle was born, I might have been more concerned.

    Having driven a 6-speed Milan with 3.0 L V6, it is also soft off the line, and has similar gas mileage to the Freestyle. The Milan/Fusion is selling well. The number one comment I get on my Freestyle is not about the CVT, but, "What is it - I have never heard of it". :shades:
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I heard it was Nissan who was using all those unreliable CVT's. :P

    To me, the CVT seems far simpler than a traditional automatic transmission. So it would seem to me that it would proven even MORE reliable.
  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    Hey northlakes, good to see your still out there and staying above the fray of Freestyle bashing. I still love mine and everything about it, especially the CVT. I used my Yakima cross bars for the first time today to carry a new exterior door home. The clamps for the roof rails worked like a charm. The storm door fit inside the car with the seats down. This is such a great car!!
  • prairiedogprairiedog Member Posts: 8
    Yup, Michelangelo's time alright, 1490, but the artist/engineer/renaissance man was Leonardo da Vinci ;) Gotta keep these artists straight!
    I think the CVT was a BOLD MOVE! Too bad they bailed on it. I love it! I hope they bring it back.
  • prairiedogprairiedog Member Posts: 8
    ford didn't educate it's dealers about how to sell this thing yet alone it customer's and its advantages

    Actually, my local dealer here DID encourage me to FLOOR the accelerator when I was driving it, to see what it could do.

    Reminder to self: don't buy any from there that have any miles on them.

    My salesman actually demonstrated the unique quality of the CVT by throwing it into REVERSE at about 15 mph to show how it would just slow down all by itself, and then "change directions." Maybe so, but my brain couldn't handle it and I wouldn't buy anything off his lot! I wonder how many people he ran off with that demo?
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Yes, of course.. it was da Vinci. Thanks for catching that. Please excuse me now. I must go and re-boot my brain.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    The Floor It technique is actually documented by Ford.

    There is a detent button under the throttle that is only compressed when the pedal is floored.

    The purpose of the button is to tell the CVT to drop to the ratio that will give maximum power for acceleration.

    Remember there is no direct cable connection from the pedal to the throttle. Its all electronic.

    You need to think of the gas pedal as if it was a dimmer on an electric light. When you want full power you floor it. It is suppose to work that way.

    Welcome to the 21st century.

    Mark.
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    I have not driven one yet, but am considering one used. The description of the CVT reminds me of the Buick Dynaflow of the 50/s/60's - if you floored it it would drop into its low range and take your head off. Also the Ford Overdrives of the 50's and later - had a button under the gas pedal - full throttle would kick it out of OD and into third direct.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "All "FULL HYBRIDS" on the market right now use a CVT. The same one actually from Aisen."

    Well, I didn't realize that Ford also used that transmission...

    I would also like to point out that you could buy a Ford Focus for about the same (or larger) $10000 than a Prius. I'm not sure what you have been reading for prices, but the Civic Hybrid can be had for around 20K.

    When comparing the two types of hybrids, it is also good to note that the Civic Hybrid can operate without the electric drive; the HSD type systems cannot work without the electric components...
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    ford's freestyle cvt is not the aisin unit. it's a zf design out of germany that has parts imported to the batavia, ohio plant where it's built with both local and imported content. that is of course if they were still building it...

    the escape hybrid uses the aisin unit but the FS does not...
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    Hi folks, after thinking and comparing all crossovers on the market I was ready to buy Freestyle ( best fuel economy and I was not to concerned about engine power ). Hoped for the good deal for remaining 2007 models but the only available was dune pearl color with leather seating ( my wife hates it) plus price was more than new Taurus X with cloth seats. Test drove both vehicles and liked Taurus X more - nicer exterior,looked more quiet and of course more powerful. So baring in mind that money which I will most likely save on fuel I will most likely lose in resale value I opted for Taurus X. Of course possibility to chose color, DVD and all other options according to our family needs was pretty significant in our decision as well.
    Hope I made a right choice. Will post my impressions after first week of driving.
  • selooseloo Member Posts: 606
    What were the terms of your deal?
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    IT always amazes me when people will jump at a left over even if it isn't equipped the way they want, doesn't have the right color, and has been sitting on the lot for 8 months plus....

    The second most expensive item most people will buy and they get what they don't want because its a left over...and a few bucks less...

    Mark
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    you right, because saving thousands of dollars on a purchase that is otherwise going to do nothing but depreciate the instant you sign the papers and drive it off the lot isn't ever a good idea... everyone picks their battles...
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    I am in Canada, and Freestyle 2007 with leather seats and comfort package + DVD was for 36.000CAD. While for the same Taurus X but with cloth seats I paid 35.000. Financing for Taurus X is 5.9% comparing to 0.6% for Freestyle, but I hope to pay it of pretty fast. And as I said we got color we wanted:)
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    really suprised that they didn't do a better deal for you to get rid of the '07. We opted for the leather as the cloth has proven to be easy to stain so get some covers on there fast to keep them looking good. They might have changed it in the T-reX but you might want to check this out...

    I'm a little befuddled as to why you would not have opted for the '07 as the interest rate was hugely better and at .06% it wouldn't have mattered when you paid it off as you can't go get money out there much cheaper. Even with the $1k difference, the leather would have been worth it and the advantage of the rate is soooo much better. It would have been a wash at worst and the FS would have gotten you better mpg.

    regardless, glad to hear you are happy with your ride and color, but as stated I'm still a bit baffled... enjoy...
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    Well, as I said leather seats was the last thing my wife wanted to have in the car - you sweating sitting on them, slipping and plus they were ugly light tan color. No, we really do not like leather seats sorry...
    My calculations were that if I resale 2007 Freestyle in 5 years I will most likely get about 3.000-5.000 less than for 2008 Taurus X - which should make up for MGP difference.
    Maybe I am wrong but only time will tell...
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Your logic is sound, and you made a great choice. Besides.. a happy and contented wife is worth any price.
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    Of course happy wife part was most important ;)
  • otis12otis12 Member Posts: 171
    Ford has not screwed up in replacing the 500 with the Taurus, imo, based on two recent test drives. Drove an AWD 500 (2007 leftover) and a new AWD Taurus. My observations --Taurus obviously is faster off the line. Transmission (CVT vs. 6-speed) is a toss-up in terms of performance. Taurus is noticably quieter during acceleration and at highway speeds. There is a hefty discount on the 500 ($6K)but every review I've read has ripped the 500 for being underpowered and for the CVT tranny vs. comparisons with the Taurus. The widespread negative reviewer opinions about the 500 means plummeting resale value. I understand why many of you are defensive about the 500s you bought - guess I would be as well. Maybe the comparisons aren't fair. But I worry that the CVT is an orphan product at Ford now and harder to get services/repaired in coming years. I've decided to go with the AWD Taurus.
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    Well gosh golly-gee jeepers that's great otis12. But this is a Freestyle/Taurus X board. The 500 board is somewhere over there I think.
  • jrljrl Member Posts: 39
    Don't take it personal otis12, I think passat_2002 owns a freestyle ;)
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    Do not understand buzz about passat or other european cars. I lived in Europe for 33 years and was driving many euro and japanese cars ( Opel, WV, Mazda, Renault. Volvo for example ). Moved to Canada and see that majority is obsessed about euros or japanese, why? IMHO Freestyle is much better than Passat. Service and parts for domestic cars is always cheaper. Honestly I think euros and japanese are overrated. Not talking about Mercedes or Lexus, but Passat or Corollas? Nobody takes passat seriously in Europe. Boring, faceless car.
  • vicenacvicenac Member Posts: 229
    As I remember, Freestayle was designed for the 3.5 engine that was not ready soon enough. Taurus X is what the Freestyle should have been.
    I had the 2005 SEL and the CVT died twice and other issues. Ford took it back. I am thinking of Taurus X, because other cars I drove to test did not come close to the stability of FS, but I am afraid of quality and dealer proftioncy in fixing it.
    Any encouregment?
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    "I love my 07 limited Ford Freestlye. I never liked Fords until this car came out. The high safety rating combined with great fuel mpg from the CVT and a very effecient interior made for a great non minivan familar car. With the CVT I had seen up to 31.5 mpg average on 4-5 hour interstate trips. For Ford to drop back to 6 speed and give more power to the car was the worst thing to do."

    I just spent 5 days and 1,400 miles with a Taurus X with the new 3.5L and 6-speed automatic - cumulative mileage for freeway (85%) and city (15%) driving was 28.8MPG, not bad in my book. The 6-speed is excellent, and the torque and overall power and quietness of the new 3.5L is very impressive.
  • jwgasnerjwgasner Member Posts: 12
    Just saw a new '08 Taurus X at the dealership the same exterior/interior color as my '07 FS. Love what they've done to tone down the Tan dash in the windshield. The charcoal color makes a great accent to the Tan and I'm sure it cuts the glare that the tan has into the windshield. I very much enjoy my FS and although I don't understand Ford's renaming of it I'm glad the vehicle lives on. For those that are considering the FS I'd not hesitate to give a FS or a TX a spin. If the TX is as quiet over the road as the FS then Ford may at last be able to market a great car. Personally I still don't understand the non-visability of Ford on this great ride!
  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    I drove Freestyle only as a test drive but I have TX for a week now and I am so happy about quiet and comfy ride. Definitely the best car I have ever sat inside. Didn't have a chance to test on a longer ride yet, but so far so good;)
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