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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
One thing caught my eye - something very minor but one of the annoyances that bothered me when I was shopping for MVs. There, at the back of the van, between the two rear tires, stood the famous one piece transaxel. Almost 20 years later, DC is still using that antiquated suspension component.
I too owned a 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan. The van was an exchange for a 1993 lemon Dodge Intrepid bought back under the Customer Arbitration Program. The van was almost as bad as the Intrepid. Two transmissions, a/c compressor replaced twice and numerous other electrical problems. On top of all that the paint peeled in strips. No help there from Chrysler. I too will not be back under the pentastar for a long time, if ever.
You brought up a good point that confuses me. I just saw the annual CR buying guide. They did indeed say that the quality of the Chrysler minivans is slipping. Yet, if you look at their repair records, the Chrysler minivans show almost all solid circles, indicating the highest reliablity.
Can anyone explain this?
Good point Hayneldan, but rather subjective I would argue. I've driven both vehicles - my opinion is that the Honda has the superior handeling.
My point with this comment was to 1) revive a dying thread and 2) demonstrate one facet that is contributing to the demise of US atuomakers.
2002 will see just 4% fewer vehicles sold than the all time record set two years ago, yet domestic auto makers like DC, will post a loss. UAW contacts are set to expire in 2003. Domestic automakers, like DC, who had planned on bringing innovations to the marketplace in 2004, will have a difficult time doing so with increasing downward price pressures brought about by these contract negotiations. Don't count on innovation from the likes of DC any time soon.
Sounds like innovation to me, from the company that pretty much invented the whole MV category.
Steve, Host
On the other hand, the new January Motor Trend gave the edge to the GC in their slalom run by 1.3mph. That review gave Odyssey a nice edge in acceleration, 1/4 mile and turning circle, though GC was better in braking.
Overall, I'd guess handling is pretty close, and opinions of it will vary a lot by personal preference unless you have professional drivers and a course like CR or MT...
Ed12-
"I just saw the annual CR buying guide. They did indeed say that the quality of the Chrysler minivans is slipping. Yet, if you look at their repair records, the Chrysler minivans show almost all solid circles, indicating the highest reliablity. "
The latest CR information online shows that the GC had below average reliability from 1995, 1996, 1997, 2000 and 2001. Grand Caravan was average reliability for 1998, 1999 and 2002. Odyssey had average reliability in 1999 and 2000, and above average reliability for 1995-1998 and 2001-2002. The overall ratings are the average of the circles you mention. No check mark at the bottom of the table indicates below average, a black check mark is average and a red check mark is above average. The online ratings are updated from the 2003 Buying Guide, and also include 2002 model year data. The problem may be that the Buying Guide is in black and white, unlike the April auto issue and online. So, a solid circle in the buying guide is actually the worst possible rating, while a circle full of horizontal stripes is the best (see page 181). The black and red circles in the magazine reports are much clearer.
Even so, keep in mind that CR states that new car problem rates are only 0.2 problems per vehicle over the first 12 months. Even with a rapidly increasing rate, it would take years for a below average vehicle to have even one more problem than one that is above average...
Have a safe new year, all.
Lofty goals I'd say, especially with the uncertainty in the market and unrest in the middle east and now N. Korea. Couple in some very tough negotiations with the UAW and it may mean lots of cars sitting on dealer lots. Good for consumers - maybe. Keep in mind that in the last contract with the UAW, automakers accepted a "no plant closing" clause that kept plants open and allowed laid off auto workers to receive 95% of their pay when laid off. Doubtful that kind of language will stay in the new contract. It could be a very long year for US automakers.
But your point is well taken - in fact, I don't know how the automakers are going to get all their current production absorbed in this "flat" economy (not to mention that Honda is eating away at DC in the vans category every quarter).
If the Kerkorian lawsuit succeeds, all bets are off (DaimlerChrysler could even be broken up).
Steve, Host
The GC and the Ody are BOTH very nice Minivans. It is very difficult to assess which is better (so to speak than the other) as they are not apples to apples comparison...more like a comparison of pizza...e.g. some will swear the Deep Dish is the best others like thin crust. Yes some pizza is better (e.g. fresh ingrediants, sauce, etc..)than others but mostly it comes down to personal taste.
I wouldn't trade a better sound system for better crash test ratings in a Mini as it is our primary kid transporter, however in my sedan I probably would because kids rarely ever ride in it.
As for sluggishness and other features I am sure you can argue both sides and find believers in both...
Really what I see when I read these boards are DC/T&C Owners trying prove their Mini is better because they are insecure that it isn't or insecure in their choice while the Ody owners tend to dismiss ANY other Mini as inferior to the heralded Ody because the Ody is BMW status symbol of Minivans when other Minis may be the better choice to those who purchased them whether it be features, price, size, etc...
VW begs to differ. I've heard rumors that they had minivans in the 50's. In fact, they also know something about the double sliding door thing since they were also doing that in the 1950's. After all, once you invent the sliding door, as VW did, it was easy to do it again on the other side. Too bad they cannot make a minivan capable of even competing these days.
I like the Axxess style too, at least from the windshield back (it is a bit wedgy up front).
Steve, Host
Chuckle, chuckle. Hard to think of any van as a status symbol. I always thought of the Odyssey as the....Honda Accord of minivans.
(Scene: Country Club)
Ohhh look, Lovie, a Honda Odyssey. He can park in the euro sports sedan section.... No wait. It's an early 4 cyl. Odyssey with cloth seats. He'll have to park with the Chevies and the Caravans. At least it's not a Kia. The service employee parking lot for Kias.
DC Van (NOT ODY) is what auto makers use as the benchmark in minivan
You gotta believe that Hyundai/Kia is giving everyone else heartburn. Nissan's new full size truck can't be helping "Detroit" either. I don't read much buzz about the new Quest but the new Sienna must be worrying Honda and DC. Good for us consumers!
Steve, Host
Nothing is truly domestic anymore. If the parts aren't sourced, then the labor is and vis versa. Lets not forget about ownership either. Last time I checked, the D in DC stood for Daimler. BTW - Honda and Toyota are the only Asian imports that are still going it alone (not that it matters).
Sorry Tomtomtom but the Chrysler Minis were the benchmark UNTIL the release of the Sienna in the late 90's. That was the benchmark until the Ody came out. Argue as you may (and I certain you will) but the ODY is THE benchmark today. Whether or not you agree every major publication and crash test survey agrees.
As for a Mini driving like a Bimmer..err, um,,, well that was not the intent of my post (to compare the Mini against the Bimmer) it was to extrapolate the Bimmer standard in Sport Sedans to the Mini field ;-)
http://www.crown-motors.com/toyota/previa/intro.htm
Do people who don't agree with you get labled as posting incorrect information? What have I posted that was incorrect?
"But if it's a smooth and quiet ride and a plethora of comfort options you desire, The DC topline is the way to go." - HD
You sir, are now lumped into the Adam (4adodge) category of adolescent posters who think a minivan has an "agressive stance." Give me a break. It's a van, and not even a very good one, not a living room sofa. I can't wait to see the redesigned DC offering with the magic seat and host of other innovative options. We all know what trouble free first year models DC is famous for producing. I can't wait for the problem thread to start ticking on that baby.
As for DC, I'll admit I'm no fan, although I have driven plenty of their MVs. Can you say the same about the Odyssey?? My dislike of them stems from the FACT that Chrysler made bad cars and bad decisions. They would have/should have gone out of business for it except the federal government decided to bail them out. Then Daimler Benz comes along and... well, you get the picture. I'm not fond of companies that receive a bail out from taxpayers (you and me) and then allow controlling interest to go to a foreign entity.
Absolutly - correct by 2 days! My point is that they should have been gone, burried in this capitalistic society. If you think they repaid their debt and they're "square" you're mistaken. Many states passed along subsidies and tax breaks for AMC and Chrysler. Lots of $$$ got flushed in the deal Dan.
I don't get it? You start the volley by saying I post inaccuracies and then you're quick to quote Edmunds when it suits (praises) your vehicle of choice. Do you chose not to believe sources like Edmunds, Car and Driver, etc. when they proclaim the Odyssey as the best in class? I've driven both vehicles in question (you didn't reply to my question on this I see). The DC vans were OK - just not for me. I've said this before. I didn't like the exit/entry because my head kept hitting the A-pillar. The rake of the roof positioned it right next to my left temple. I was uncomfortable with that aspect of the van. The Odyssey roofline isn't raked as much and provides me with more head room - that's one of the reasons I bought it. That and the fact I didn't want to be left with a residual value of less than one half after 4 years. I've driven every minivan out there except Kia. None were "bad" and I imagine I'd have been happy with just about any of them. There's different models to suit different needs. Where's all the innacurate information that I've posted on DC? Do you work for them or something?
Engines: Honda has a great 3.5L V6 engine. Easily better than the DC engines, both their 3.3 and 3.8. Honda engine has more power, equal or better mpg, lower emissions, all on regular gas. Until DC puts their newer 2.7L and 3.5L engines in the vans, Honda wins this battle hands down.
Transmission: tossup. Both shift smoothly. Honda has 5 ratios, DC has 4, but both now have reliability stains. I like the fact that you can change the filter on the DC transmission, but the Honda transmission has no serviceable filter.
Interior functionality: Honda has the advantage here. The fold-flat third row seat is a significant advantage by any standard. The deep well into which it stows also increases cargo room significantly when the seat is upright. Park both side by side, open the tailgates, then make note of which would swallow more stuff. DC offers split rear seat, making it possible to remove only half the rear bench, so if you need to haul 5 people and big cargo, you can, but that doesn't make up for the obvious advantage of stowing the seat in the floor. In the Ody you can fold it up, load it up all your vacation luggage, drive to your destination, unload, then flip the seat back up and taxi all your relatives around. It's such an obviously good idea DC should have copied it immediately. DC offers more features such as three-zone AC, outside temp readout and compass, adjustable pedals.
Safety features: advantage Honda. Better crash test results, and standard side-impact air bags. On the DC, crashworthiness is very good, just not as good as the Ody, and side impact airbags cost extra but are available.
Build quality: Honda, but not by much. Metal edges better finished in the Honda, and most interior materials, particularly the seats, look a bit more durable in the Ody. Plastic interior parts in the Ody have fewer rough edges. On DC, front door handles you pull on to open the doors have rough mold lines you must touch to pull on it. However, the paint quality on the DC is better. Paint appears thicker and deeper, and the metallic layers are more even, less mottling. Door jambs are finished in body color, whereas on Honda they only have an overspray of finished color on top of a base color, leaving an unfinished appearance. DC also has slightly better door panel gap evenness, especially around the sliding doors. DC body panel contours match up better between the front doors and the sliders. Sliding doors function better on the DC, both the manual and the electric units. Honda has had a great deal of trouble with their electric sliding doors, and their manual sliders have a reputation of getting stuck closed (although this latter issue can be addressed by keeping the gaskets lubricated).
Serviceability: Honda appears easier to work on. The engine is accessible from all sides. On the DC, the base of the windshield is too far forward, causing the engine to be tucked up under the leading edge of it. This makes it very difficult to get the the back side of the engine to change spark plugs. Best way on DC is to put it on a lift and get at the backside from underneath. Oil filter on both is very easy to reach. Oil drain plug on both is a bit difficult, but Ody has about an inch more ground clearance, making climbing underneath it slightly easier. Belts and accessories are easier to access on Ody because the engine bay is bigger and isn't packed as tightly.
Drive: Advantage DC. It's quieter. The Ody may handle a wee bit better in slalom and evasive maneuvers, maybe due to it's independent rear suspension (DC has solid rear axle on leaf springs), but it isn't by much. Honda has way too much torque steer for a modern FWD design (at least mine did), and is too prone to "bump steer," a characteristic where the steering is redirected by bumps in the road. Honda also suffers from high sensitivity to road crown and ruts in the road, making driving the van a chore. It could be argued that these are tradeoffs made to get better steering feel and road feedback, but Honda has done a much better job of retaining road feel without these unwanted traits in the Accord. They should be able to do it in the Ody as well. The DC van is just more pleasant to drive. It's steering is slightly on the numb side, but it does provide some feedback from the road without the excessive torque steer, bump steer, and wandering the Ody suffers from.
Cost of ownership: advantage Honda. Strong resale value makes cost of ownership lower. Even if you plan on keeping the van for a decade, it could still be an important consideration should the van get totalled or stolen. You never know! Or you may find yourself in the unfortunate circumstance of needing to sell it for financial reasons. It's always better if the assets you own depreciate as slowly as possible. The unknown in this is how the better supply of Odys will affect resale value of those already on the road. You can now reasonably expect to buy an Ody for less than MSRP, where that was not the case 18 months ago. Resale value will likely slip as a result, but it would have to slip quite a bit to be as poor as DC's. Justified or not, DC resale value is not one of it's strong points.
So, what's important to you?
Excellent, powerful and reasonably economical engine? very versatile and flexible interior with excellent cargo capacity? Very good engine bay layout? Lower cost of ownership? Worthwhile safety features? Honda has your van.
Quiet ride combined with good handling? More available creature comforts? Better paint finish? Fewer current ongoing, unresolved problems such as erratic power sliding doors? DaimlerChrysler has your ride.
Price may be the determining factor. The supply of Odysseys is not as tight as it once was, so in some areas of the country you can possibly get as much as $1000 or a bit more off MSRP, and not have to wait months to get it. DC vans are sticker priced higher, but have much more profit margin and frequently have rebates, allowing much more negotiating room. It's likely you can get a similarly equipped DC van for a bit less money than the Ody.
On another note, Volkswagen was the first car company to put a scaled down van into passenger vehicle service, which is essentially what a minivan is. They just didn't have the marketing intuition to sell it as a "minivan." They called it a "microbus" instead. Just because it was not FWD and the engine was in the back makes no difference as far as the intended service the vehicle was designed for. It was primarily a people-mover, second use was commercial, just like the Chrysler vans. It was derived from the Kubelwagen, same as the Type I (Beetle).
Happy car shopping!
My wife and I were quite impressed with the most recent iteration of DC minis. As you pointed out, the Ody does indeed excell in several areas (noteably handling, engine performance and interior ergonomics), but the DC surpasses the Ody in overall smoothness/ride and luxury features. I also found the front seats in the DC (at least in the T&C Limited) to be more comfortable than those in the Ody, by a small margin.
The clincher, however, was The Deal. The Chrysler dealership we visited had several new '02 T&C Limiteds for $8K off MSRP ($5.5K dealer discount + $2.5K customer cash). The final net deal worked out to almost $2K less than a comparably equipped Ody. The DC dealer also gave us 4.9% financing for 60 months. That was pretty much the icing on the cake for our deal. My wife also got to choose the exact color she wanted. The dealer's sales staff were also very pleasant and didn't pressure us to buy on-the-spot, but we did anyway. It just seemed like too good of a deal to pass up.
Nine months and 11K miles later, we are still very happy with the T&C - no problems yet (knock on wood). I am not trying to say, however, that the DC van is necessarilly better than the Ody. Having been on both sides of the fence now, I don't consider myself loyal to either one. They're both nice people/stuff movers, which is why people buy minivans - certainly not to impress the neighbors.
One thing I do miss about the Ody, however, is that absolutely dandy v-tech engine. It would wind right up to the redline and still sound as smooth as velvet. The DC 3.8 pushrod motor has a bit more bottom-end thrust, but it scolds you (loudly, I might add) if you go beyond 5,000 RPM.
But then, I guess only an idiot would try to redline a minivan, huh? (P.S., my wife usually drives the van. My own personal car is a Pontiac Vibe GT with a six-speed - and it gets redlined every time I drive it!).
Honda and DC both make a great van. Ford, Toyota, GM, not even close. We chose the Dodge on the basis of equipment levels, pricing, availability and driving feel. The 15 minutes spent in the Honda were not enough to convince me it was worth the 3k more and surly, arrogant dealer who had 1 in stock with $2800 in stupid add-on equipment.
So far, our 2001 GC ES has been very satisfying. Everytime I remove those 3rd row seats to carry something I wish I had the Honda, but never any other time. As far as comparing with BMW, it's apples to oranges. However I do own a '00 740iL so I feel qualified to make the comparison. Where it counts (on the road), the DCV vans are not disappointing. We regularly drive 600 mile days, all interstate, from Atlanta to S. Florida. 2 kids, 2 (heavy) adults and a full load. The Dodge maintains 80+ mph at 21 mpg with the (great) A/C going full blast. It has never felt unstable or less than confident on the road. I can honestly say every time I make that trip in it, I am impressed by it's capabilities. I'm sure the Honda is equally capable.
When the time comes to trade it in, I'm sure I'll longingly think of the Ody's resale. However knowing the Dodge cost me almost 3k less up front and nothing to own in 2 yes and 30k, I assume I'll get over the 2k or so difference.
Overall, both vans are head and shoulders above the competition. The new Toyota will be interesting, however this will be their 4th design of their people mover and they haven't come close yet. Ford may get it right as they seem to have a grasp of the US market now, we'll have to see about the quality. The GM vans are not scheduled for replacement anytime soon so we're stuck with the Euro-American compromise of the current Opel-based Venture/Montana platform.
My 2 cents...
BTW -- the few times it has snowed the T&C AWD performed fabulously. And she really appreciated the heat grid in the windshield below the wipers, wish I had that on my X5.
Maybe it rides better, if you prefer the ride of the DC. Is it antiquated - yes, therefore, statement true.
I'll leave the discussion on government bail-outs for another thread. I'm still waiting to hear about all of my inaccuracies. I expected a list of at least 10 or 12 considering I've been posting in this thread for over a year. What is my "inaccuracy percentage" in your book - like .005%?
I'll end this discussion by saying you're right - you're always right and I bow to your knowledge and expertise. I (we) are all lucky to have you here with us. DC is the best MV out there. If Edmunds says it, it must be so. (I don't remember where they said that but if you insist, it must be so.)
"So it is written, so it is done."
B-Daddy - Newly appointed, official Town Hall post accuracy checker.
We have managed to do well with the short wheel base Caravans for, believe it or not 18 years and counting, including being on our 6th straight year and counting of moving two college students in succession into and out of dorms and apartments. Our first was an '85. Our second is a '96 SE Sport and currently is at 64,000 miles, with only one repair, to the AC, last summer. Yes it was an expensive repair, but we have never had it back for anything else except two minor recalls, and the normal maintenance services. The brakes are even still original and are good for at least another year. Van is smooth and quiet as the day we drove it home and when freshly washed, looks nearly new as well. Hard to beat, and you could get a new replacement Caravan similar to ours for well under $20k.
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_045102
I read that DC has a "surfer" version that's at the car shows now.
Steve, Host
1. The government never loaned Chrysler anything. The banks loaned Chrysler the money with guarantees from the govenment
2. The loans were paid back two years early.
3. As part of the deal, the government required Chyrsler to throw in a large block of stock which at the time was almost worthless. Because of the success of the K car, the stock soared and the treasury department sold the stock for a gain of $275 million dollars. As a taxpayer, I wish we could have more bailouts like that.
4. As a previous poster said, let us not go down the tax incentive path. The state governments have now given Japanese car builders billions in tax credits.