Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

saveri · July 2003

Cheap parts vs. cheap labor are 2 different things. How do you know the Chrysler parts are cheap? Warranty is not a guaranteed indicator of cheap parts, it is an indicator of poor/inadequate design. The people who designed the parts did not anticipate all the ways the part is stressed under daily use. You can have an poorly designed expensive part fail.

Just wanted to clarify the above issue. Not intending to make any statements of where labor should or should not be kept.

fezo · July 2003

but I I'll agree with crkeehn. The PT Cruisers have a good record. The Sebring covertibles that were built in that factory in Mexico (I think through 2000) were pretty typical of American car reliability - trouble in the first two years and then decent. I had a 98 Sebring and it never gave me a lick of trouble (sample size of one).

Sebrings are now built in Michigan.

I agree on the management vs labor issue and cheapness of parts. If you give American workers a good plant and the right parts they will build a quality vehicle every time. It is shameful that we need the Japanese to prove that to us.

crkeehn · July 2003

Repeat after me...

They're not all Windstars

They're not all Windstars

They're not all Windstars

(Just don't do it on the information desk or your branch manager will have to put you in a quiet room.)

hayneldan · July 2003

Is your mechanic a Toyota or a DC mechanic or independent? He must really know a lot about cars. What newspaper or car magazine does he write for? Which DC parts did he use on your Toyota?

fezo · July 2003

Hey! Ya know friends of ours bought one a while after we had the disaster. They've still got it but it's like an engine later and teh "check engine" light is on. I suppose this means they are supposed to look and see if it's still there.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

Yes. I am that pathetic.

I have three kids, so a minivan is a necessity. I bought the Voyager in late 1996, just after the 3rd was born. It immediately began letting me down with one failure after another. Even though the early ones were all covered by warranty, I still ended up having to rent cars whenever the van needed a head gasket, valve cover, new computer, etc.

When the opportunity came to buy a second car in 2001, I still needed a dependable minivan--and the Voyager was not it. So I bought a Sienna which has performed flawlessly so far.

Even though I only drive the Voyager some 4,000 to 5,000 miles per year, it still has managed to break down on me on a regular basis.

So what parts did various mechanics use in my Voyager? Just about every damn part you can think of!

The current mechanic is a transmission rebuilder. Although he says the DC van tranny's have improved, about 25-30% of his business is on DC vans. (He has never had to do a Seinna.)

I have been unfortunate to own crappy DC van and have come to know many others with similar misfortunes. I feel it is my duty to warn my fellow citizens of the difficult life that one may have if he or she falls prey to the siren song of a DC van!

I hope that answers your questions and thank you for your concern.

fezo · July 2003

That using car based transmissions on these beasts just doesn't work. Is there ANY van out there where people aren't just a little concerned about the tranny? Heck, you've got people reporting problems in 04 Siennas!

crkeehn · July 2003

It's like the first Volkswagen buyers. One was parked by the side of the road when a second pulled up to see if he could help. The first was staring blankly into the front of his car. He informed the second that his engine was missing, the second driver responded "That's Okay, I have a spare in the trunk."

lfike · July 2003

I'm really not here to pick on any one model...I used the PT cruiser as an example because I had 4 friends at work + myself that had all 2001 Cruisers.....3 of the 5 had tranny problems...one had no problems what so ever and the last one had tons of problems with everything but the tranny.
I stick by my guns with the comment about chrysler using cheap parts....I wish they made a car as dependable as Honda and Toyota....I'd be glad to spend my money for a "all" USA made vehicle....I'm talking one that has all USA parts and labor and owned by a USA company...but hey, those days are over.
By the way...I see this commercial on TV where the guy talks (bragging) about his old pick-up truck last 200,000 miles and 2 engines??? Only two engines! I've seen a 86 dx accord hatchback that had 615,000 miles...and a Acura Legend at the Pittsburgh auto show that had over a million miles a while back. My question is : if it's not the parts or the workers...what is it that causes all these breakdowns?
again, only my opinion here :>)

lfike · July 2003

you said:
Cheap parts vs. cheap labor are 2 different things. How do you know the Chrysler parts are cheap? Warranty is not a guaranteed indicator of cheap parts, it is an indicator of poor/inadequate design. The people who designed the parts did not anticipate all the ways the part is stressed under daily use. You can have an poorly designed expensive part fail.

I agree with your first comment....though I disagree with your second concerning the Warranty.
I also agree with the poorly design comment...hey two out of three ain't bad..;>)

lfike · July 2003

Glad to see this hub going again!

saveri · July 2003

I work in the auto industry and my dealings with field warranty failures have essentially shown me the following generic issue:

Warranty always indicates a lack of understanding of complete system function and interaction. No one design's a part to fail, it is a very expensive proposition to all parties involved. The part fails because the validation tests performed did not capture 1) customer usage 2) vehicle environment. Naturally no one wants to spend $10/part when $5 would suffice. The question with evaluating reducing costs is how well the engineering behind the change is done. More money does not mean better engineering.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

Actually, that is not true, or at least it has not been in the past. U.S. cars were, for years, built to fail at a certain point. U.S. carmakers had lots of brand loyalty and designed cars to last 60K-70k or so. That way, people would have to replace their cars on a regular basis (about every 5 years).

The Japanese cars in the 1970's changed that. They used modern design controls and failure analysis to ensure that their cars were meant to last. That is why you can expect a Japanese car to last between 120K (low end) and 250K (high end)if it.

U.S. industry changed, albeit slowly and in the 1990's started producing better and more reliable cars--but they still lag the Japanese. A big part of the problem has got to be the corporate culturewhich still does not emphasis product quality. The idea that parts may because the company did not foresee their use can only be justified when the use is unusual or extreme. It is the engineer's job and duty to design parts to tolerances required under reasonably foreseeable use.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

I've heard a lot of stories of Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus cars lasting "forever", like 500K to 1 Million miles.
I have not heard of any other cars lasting that long.
My uncle has a Nissan Maxima with 100K miles, and it's already dead. My LS400 has 124K miles and Avalon has 115K miles, and they are both going strong. My father-in-law has a 100K mile Caravan and it's in a coma. His other 50K mile Caravan is having congestive heart failure, renal failure, and liver failure. It has always been brain dead from the start, but now the rest of it's body is catching up.
****hee***hee***
I crack myself up.

fezo · July 2003

Look out, crkeehn! I think he's coming after you!

Maybe you own the 2 out of 5.....

lfike · July 2003

I wonder if they ever designed a vehicle to rust?

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Only "American" makes like Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler.

lfike · July 2003

you said:
Naturally no one wants to spend $10/part when $5 would suffice.

how long do automotive companies want their parts to last is the question.
yes I also believe they are designed to last for x amount of years.
On the other had...I think that Chrysler has done a very good job on designing their vehicles. Though keep in mind that looks are only skin deep..and you guys thought it only pertained to people eh?

lfike · July 2003

Oh boy I sure remember the rust bucket Japanese cars of the late 70's and mid 80s when they used that cheap steel of theirs. It sure cost a lot of jobs in this country when they started dumping it here...but that's another subject. Since that time they sure have made a turn-around in their steel process. I think Chrysler has better paint colors to choose from. There were a lot of complaints with the Chrysler paints chipping very easy (PT Cruiser for one). Wonder how those that said that checked the speed of the rock that hit their front end? Can you imagine the conversation of two guys or gals saying "wow, look at that chip in your paint! Bubba says (or bubette, whichever) "yea, had this rock hit my front end kinda easy and dang it...the paint just chipped right off!"
......I'm losing it ! later...Old Grandpa

tomtomtom · July 2003

why do we all expect our cars should last forever? I was replacing a water heater in my house the other day and the guy told me the heater will last around 10 to 12 years and it will need to be replaced after that. We can accept a item that have less than 20 parts and does nothing but to boil water to last only 10 to 12 years and we want our cars with million parts that took abuse from potholes and hard acceleration to last forever?

tomtomtom · July 2003

please don't say the boiler cost x amount and the car cost x amount. I am sure if the boiler have a cd player and four rims it would cost the same too.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Perhaps after paying about $30,000, we expect our cars to last longer than 100,000 miles or at least for 10 years.
We expect and demand the best from Toyota and Honda.
Perhaps if everyone demanded the same quality from Chrysler, Ford, and Chey, these vehicles would have higher reliability records.
Besides, these "American" makes are always slightly ugly because these companies are just too stupid to listen to the consumers. Instead, they just listen to their own dumb ideas. I mean a lot of these "Japanese" cars were designed by Americans. For example, the Lexus coupe SC400 was designed by an American from California. He took his design to some American companies and they all laughed at him. So he sold them to Toyota.
Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy are stupid companies.

crkeehn · July 2003

[quote]Look out, crkeehn! I think he's coming after you!

Maybe you own the 2 out of 5.....[/quote]

It's now 2 out of 6 for our church. Along with the two steel blue and two inferno red we have just added a stone white woodie and a silver.

saveri · July 2003

Failure within the scope of a customer's usage is any part/system not performing it's intended function during a pre-defined useful life period. If a part fails after meeting the pre-defined metric it has satisfied it's expected life. No engineer designs a part to fail within the expected life period.

The usual failures you see in the field are not extreme circumstances. Most field failures are due to not understanding the system environment completely i.e. customer usage, physical environment, etc. The tests that are performed do not always adequately reflect real world usage. It is not simply a "tolerance" issue. Engineering is not an exact science and to become a good engineer it take years of experience with a single system/commodity. The Big 3 keep shuffling/promoting people around and there are not a lot of system experts left. Everyone is a jack of all trades and a master of none.

The Japanese succeed where the Big 3 don't because they have a fundamentally different philosophy in what constitutes good engineering. Plus they believe in the value of developing engineers in a single commodity i.e. doors, seats, etc..

Anyway I digress, don't want to get into a long winded discussion.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

You are right. The main point is that the Japanese do a good job and the Big Three don't.

Toyotas and Hondas will last for 10-12 years or more. Ford, Chrysler and GMC cars won't.

I don't expect to every buy a Ford, Chrysler or GM car again,

fezo · July 2003

Carl, this is your fault!

Now not that your posts have all been in this topic, but.....

I bought an extended warranty on the Ody today.

If it's like the Windstall I'll consider it pre-payment on the transmission. If I never need it it's still worth not having the Mrs worrying...

lfike · July 2003

you said:
quote]Look out, crkeehn! I think he's coming after you!

Maybe you own the 2 out of 5.....[/quote]

It's now 2 out of 6 for our church. Along with the two steel blue and two inferno red we have just added a stone white woodie and a silver.

______________________________________________

Are you domestic guys cheating?....I mean I pray for alot of things...but I never prayed for my Cruiser!.....guess I should have.

I also think they should have called Chrysler
CrySir

andrew!!! help!!!!!!!!

andrewtran71 · July 2003

That sounds kind of funny---praying for your Cruisers to be absent of problems. The odds are against you if you own any Chrysler, Chevy, or Ford. I guess Buick and Cadillac too, but not as much problems as the big 3.
Yeah, I can see them praying now:

"Dear Lord, please keep our Chryslers safe from any kind of problems. Please give it long life--you know--maybe 100K miles and 10 years? Well, okay, maybe 10 years is asking you for too much, Lord. How about 5 years?"

Yeah, this is going way off topics, but I only pray God that I do good things and live a good and decent life, not for my Ody to last 10 years.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

But I guess if I had bought a Chrysler, I might change and start praying God for my T&C to last 5 years since longer than 5 years is kind of unreasonable to ask for :-)

I think the people who buys from the "big 3" include:

1) those who have never test driven the Ody or Sienna,
2) those who cannot afford or just think they cannot afford because they don't think they can get a discount like $2-3K off MSRP, and
3) those who just have to buy "American" makes to "support America". Where are the Ody and Sienna made, by whom, and with parts made from where?

Yes, I would pray---pray a lot if I bought a Chrysler, Chevy, or Ford.

tomtomtom · July 2003

I don't agree with your comment at all and I think you are kind of disrespected some of the people in here.

Looks
Since when "all" Japanese cars are better looking than "all" American cars? Every company has a car or two that is butt ugly or boring looking. IMO, I think Honda makes most boring looking cars in the marketing. But the most ugly car title belongs to Ferrari Enzo.

You comments on people who buys from the "big 3"
1. I couldn't test drive an Ody 2 1/2 years ago because the Honda dealers didn't have one for me to test drive and asked me for deposit if I want to test drive one. But I did drive one six months after I bought my T&C and I didn't regret my decision on the T&C but I could have bought the Ody if I got one to test drive. I haven't driven the new Sienna but did drive the '01 model and I didn't like the size and handling at all. Since I don't have any problems with my T&C so far I would say the reliability mean nothing at this point. If you want to talk about resale value you can do a calculation and you will find owning a T&C might be just a dollar or so more a day. That's nothing when you buy a $3 Starbucks coffee every day or pay for those cables channels that you never watch.

2. I (Many other people) could have bought a loaded MB G-Class if I (they) wanted to but that's not what I (we) need. My family has/had owned 5 MBs, 1 BMW, 3 Toyotas, 1 Lexus, 2 Chryslers, 1 Honda, 1 Ford, 1 Chevrolet. And guess which cars have the most problems? The 1 Toyota and the 3 MBs.

3. Sienna and Ody are built by Americans but who is the boss and who made all the big bucks? The Japanese owner in Japan or the American plant manager? Nike made their goods in China, do you think the workers over there are rich?

jlewelling1 · July 2003

Just because they cost alot doesn't mean they are well made. There are lots of expensive cars (Jaguars, MBs, BMWs, etc.) that have terrible reliabilty

What kind of Toyota was the one that had problems? What kind problems.

tomtomtom · July 2003

transmission problem with the 1996 Toyota Previa

crkeehn · July 2003

You can't blame me for the extended warranty. I have not badmouthed the Odyssey. In fact, my most recent comparison study revealed that Odysseys left outside in Maryland are wet right now. That is also true of DC vans, the Sienna, the Sedona and of course the PT Cruisers. I other words, the Odyssey is performing no better or no worse in that respect than the competitors.

Gee I hope my PT doesn't shrink, I wouldn't want it any smaller.

stever · July 2003

Japanese industry was supposedly revived post-war with the help of the Deming Management Philosophy (sometimes called Total Quality Management nowadays). Straight out of the USofA.

Some say the Japanese learned TQM better than the teachers. Doesn't explain the past 20 years of a less than stellar Japanese economy. Deflation, anyone?

Interesting stuff, but let's try to keep it related to the topic for the benefit of the comparison shoppers visiting here.

Steve, Host

stever · July 2003

But sometimes these "management" discussions turn into "foreign vs. domestic" flame wars. That was just my warning shot across the bow before someone decided to head down that street.

Carry on :-)

Steve, Host

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Most people with "enough" money will buy something other than from the "Big 3"--I mean if money is no object.
And as far as reliability goes, the records will speak for itself. Toyota and Honda consistantly make among the most reliable cars.
Yeah, Honor and Pride is a big thing to Japanese.
They do good for the honor and pride of their country and people, unlike most of us here who are lazy as heck and would rather just sit on our butts and collect money from the government.
If we had the Japanese philosophy here in this country, our Great country would be even greater.
Thank goodness to the good hard working people, like the ones on Edmunds:-) We keep this country great. We have honor and pride. But it's the rest of the lazy people that make the "Big 3" crapy.

lfike · July 2003

tomtomtom,
Our good buddy Andrewtran would never...I mean never show disrespect for another person here...he may not agree with you and your ideas, but, he would never show you as a person disrespect. I think Andrew just doesn't like Chrysler, Ford or Chevy. There's nothing wrong with disliking a car manufacturer. I don't care for Korean auto companies....I think they offer a great warranty....but I also think they make a cheap car (just my opinion here). That doesn't mean I disrespect a person that drives a Kia or whatever.
My mom always said that you should love everyone....if you want to hate anything...it's ok to hate their ways.
Townha11
I thought your post above was very good and gets more to the problem of certain car companies and their ideas.

uga91 · July 2003

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-06-30-minivans_x.htm

I can not believe no one has noticed this info from a couple of days ago. I for one do not like the fold flat seat. I would never use it. I have 3 kids so I use my rear bench each and every day. I love my split folding/removable bench as it increases stroage for trips while still providing enough seating for all 5 of us. A fold flat rear bench is a reason why I would not buy a van. I guess Honda has fooled enough people into thinking it is a good feature, though.

bdaddy · July 2003

Never say never.

DC is even looking at 2 rows of fold flat seats for its MVs in 2007. If you can wait that long, maybe you'll have 4 kids as a result!

robr2 · July 2003

I think nobody noticed the article because DC says it's a secret - SSSSHHHHHH!! LOL

The fold flat rear seat was one of the prime reasons why we chose the Ody. We don't have a garage and the seats in the other vans were all too heavy for my wife anyway. We have the seat up and down at least 2-3 times per week.

What I don't understand is that if you have a bench 3rd seat, why wouldn't the fold flat seat work for you? I know that you leave it in because of the 3 kids, but don't you have to remove it to haul something big? Wouldn't the convenience of folding it down be worthwhile?

I just hope that DC goes with a split design like the Sienna and what the next gen Odyssey will probably have.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Thank you, Lewis.
I will disagree with a lot of people, but never disrespect.

Yes, Tom, I would never disrespect anyone. Perhaps when I was younger and even more ignorant than now, I might never disrepected some people. But the older I get, the more I realize that I should never disrespect anyone.

I'll be completely honest. If Chrysler owned qualitly cars like Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura, I would prefer to buy Chrysler. I do. I would much rather buy an "American" name brand, and I think most of us would too.
But the truth hurts sometimes.
For some reasons, the "American" cars just don't stand up to the quality of Toyota or Honda.

If I'm paying $30K, I expect a reliable, high quality product, like the Odyssey.
The D/C products have had such bad reliable records that even the KIA SEDONA ranks higher in Consumer Reports in terms of reliability than D/C.

uga91 · July 2003

No more kids for us. Unless Divine Intervention steps in, of course!

As far as hauling something big--I just don't have the need. I have removed both rows one time (about 16 months ago) to haul a breakfast room table--that's it. I removed the rear bench one other time to haul a chair. Maybe I'm wierd, but I don't haul many things that require the removal of the bench. So, no, if the folding bench is a one piece bench, the convenience would not be worth it to me. A split folding bench? Sure. But, what are the chances that Chrysler will do that?

stever · July 2003

Pay attention, don't let Andrew get you side-tracked on NAV in here :-)

steve_ Jul 1, 2003 2:55am

I don't think fold flat seats have to be uncomfortable by definition, but I'm not going to have to be the one sitting back there either. Nissan is getting a fold flat second and third row, so it'll be interesting to see real world reactions to them. None will split, afaik.

Steve, Host

fezo · July 2003

You'd be amazed how often you'd find your self using that if you had it.

I've got 4 kids so if we're going somehere as a family the seats are up, but a big store trip, Homoe Depot, etc that flip seat is great.

Of course the other thing is when the seat is up it creates a nice deep well - lots of storage room withthe seat up!

larryintn · July 2003

The reason we did not want a fold flat seat was road noise. The well tends to increase road noise which made our 2002 GC one of the quietest in the group we considered.

Everyone has different priorities.

tomtomtom · July 2003

"Most people with "enough" money will buy something other than from the "Big 3"--I mean if money is no object. "

I don't know the meaning of "enough" money but according to Mr. Andrew, most people who bought a car from the "Big 3" must be poor...

uga91 · July 2003

If it is a solid seat, it is not something that appeals to me. I like my split folding/split removeable bench. If the fold flat seat is split folding, then I'd be in business.

tomtomtom · July 2003

I think some people do prefer the styling of the DC Van over the Ody. Or features that DC Vans have and the Ody don't.

robr2 · July 2003

Absolutely true. Personally I like the wedge shape of the Ody over the rounder style of the DC and Honda's Magic Seat. I did like the DC's more quiet interior and the tri zone HVAC as well as the DC red. I appreciated my Honda experiences and the greater exclusivity of the Ody at the time.

In the end - it's what appeals to you.

uga91 · July 2003

I like the way the Odyssey looks. My wife does not. We have a Chrysler. That's the way it goes around here, I guess.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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