Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

fezo · July 2003

In the CR reliabilty Honda came out #2 to Toyota and that didn't bother me.

Like what you like - doen't bother me.

On te European cars note - you don't buy them for reliability - at least I hope you wouldn't. Loads of folks liek how the drive and the ones I've driven have indeed been nice but the price added to the cost of maintenence and repair has kept me away.

uga91 · July 2003

Did you Honda folks notice where the Accord ranked in long term reliability? It was not in the top 3. What?? The 2000 Accord beaten by the Chevrolet Malibu, Plymouth Breeze and Chrysler Cirrus? Well, that proves that this whole report is wrong, huh? Even years after its death, Plymouth is kicking (rear end)!

tomtomtom · July 2003

a few years ago, you can find Mitsubishi engine in a Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth/Eagle product, ie. Laser, Talon, Stealth, Colt and now I think the engine used in the MB SLK is in the Crossfire.

Some people will only buy car has a Japanese brand badge on it. I believe the Eclipse outsold all the Laser and Talon combined even though they are exactly the same. The same case as the 3000GT outsold the Stealth. And now, some people would pay more to get a Toyota Matrix instead of a Pontiac Vibe.

dtownfb · July 2003

Accord competes is in Premium midsize category not the entry level mid size car.

fezo · July 2003

Some people will only buy car has a Japanese brand badge on it. I believe the Eclipse outsold all the Laser and Talon combined even though they are exactly the same. The same case as the 3000GT outsold the Stealth. And now, some people would pay more to get a Toyota Matrix instead of a Pontiac Vibe.

And those people are either nuts or not paying attention.

Lonng term reliability of Accord? Again, if you look at CR Accord is much better than average while your other three there are average. This is no big crime to be average.

In JD Powers - I played on their site to compare all 4 head to head and got a very odd result. It rated teh Breeze ahead of the Cirrus on feature and accessory quality even though a Breeze is a deconted Cirrus. They claim to have no data on mechanical reliability on anything but the Malibu. If there is any sample size at all, how can this be? These are high volume cars. There's all sorts of numbers that don't add up. They give the best in class to the Plymouth despite the Chrysler being the same car with more features.

Odd stuff. I did compare the vans yesterday on that and tehy gace the awards to Ody and Sienna despite what they said in that release. I'm confused.

As far as kicking butt, I really don't care. Not like most folks buy a minivan to kick butt. I'm very happy and comfortable with my choice.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Buying brand name--isn't that how most of us are if the price is right?
I remember the Corolla was the same as a Prism, except the Corolla was made in the Toyota plant and Prism was made in a Chevy plant. And I recall the Corolla had better reliability records, which was interesting. I guess Toyota has has better controls in the manufacturing process and Chevy doesn't.
The reason a lot of us buy "Japanese" is because they have a very long history of excellent reliability. You could buy the most reliable car the Lexus LS430 and if you are unlucky, it might break down before your Chrysler Town and Country.
However, chances are, the T&C will have problems first according to JD Powers and CR.
Which would I trust more? Hmmm. I would trust them both equally. None are perfect.

robr2 · July 2003

Actually Corolla's and Novas/Prisms were made side by side in a plant in in Fremont, CA starting in 1986. That same plant also makes Toyota trucks.

http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-nao- - - -mfg.htm

http://www.nummi.com

Today they still make the Corolla and Tacoma as well as the Pontiac Vibe. Further, they build the Toyota Voltz which is exported to Japan. And to top it off, they are a UAW plant.

I'm no chest beater for the UAW and the Big 3 at all, but if an American plant using American labor can build a competitive vehicle, so be it. Difference between Corolla and Prism reliability numbers should be perception only - I doubt the quality standards changed just because they affixed a different label to the car.

tomtomtom · July 2003

Andrew, it is like the third time you have posted incorrect information, I think TH only allows the max of 5 times :-) I hope you didn't buy and pay more for a Toyota Corolla instead of the Prism or a Honda Passport and found out it really was a Isuzu.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

If I post 100% correct infos, there would not be enough good heated debates and stuff :-)
I just realized myself that the Prism was a Geo Prism, not Chey :-) My bad.
Yeah, actually I did buy the Corolla over the Prism, but I did not buy any SUVs.
After the Corolla, I went with a Camry.
Then I went with the Avalon.
Then I gave that to my wife and bought a Lexus.
Then I bought the Odyssey.
But interesting info by robr2. If these cars only differ in the names, then it has to be pure perception in terms of reliability. Interesting.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

If D/C can gets good numbers on reliability as Toyota and Honda, I probably still wouldn't buy one just because I don't like they way they look outside and inside. One quick example, Honda and Toyota has a nice 7" NAV screen while D/C has a 4 inch NAV screen? Just doen't make any sense to me.

stever · July 2003

Same theory with the old Quest/Villager. Same components, same assembly line, same workers, etc. Only difference was in the trim and warranty.

JD Power gives the Villager a #1 ranking for reliability and the Quest isn't on the radar. Maybe the old saw that people who buy Japanese brands are pickier than buyers of domestic brands has some truth to it?

Steve, Host

andrewtran71 · July 2003

I agree. I think people who buy "Japanese" expect a lot more and so even the smaller problems bother the heck out of them and they sure as heck want everyone and their pets to know about it.
So then can we say a lot of people who buy "Japanese" are type A personality?
No. I only buy "Japanese" cars and I consider myself type B personality. However, even the smallest problems bother the heck out of me :-)

stever · July 2003

I'm type B, and my Quest is "Japanese." Actually only my drivetrain is - the sheetmetal was stamped in TN and the electrical stuff is mostly Ford. The folks in OH did a nice job of riveting it together it seems; no strandings in the first 83,000 miles.

Steve, Host

fezo · July 2003

I always liek that one - catches a lot of people, as I'm sure Vibe/Matrix will... It does show that American union labor can do every bit the good work of anywhere else and do it competitively.

THere may be something to that thing about what people expect going into their car purchase. Back when I had a Windstall I was ready at purchase time to concede it was probably not up to Japanese standards and when warranty work came up I didn't sweat it. But then it continued and once past 80,000 miles it was a piece of junk that I did not trust enough to put my family in it. Point is those first early repairs I probably still would have given Ford a pass. I would have found it something seriously wrong on a Japanese make. Those later repairs put Ford into the "fool me once" camp. So did the corporate Ford "customer service" people.

dustyk · July 2003

My boss and I rode over to another building for a meeting the other day in his aging Caravan. I was amazed to see the oddometer at 321,000 miles. It's the original engine and transmission,too.

Yes, he's done a number of repairs (including two headgasket replacements), but overall I though it was darn good for a vehicle with that kind of mileage. Still more amazing was the body. Chrysler vehicles sure don't rust as quickly as Ford and GM around here (Rochester, NY). This Caravan had a rusted out sliding door and there was rust on the rear hatch door. But that's it!

Dusty

tomtomtom · July 2003

I was watching this Pontiac commercial on TV the other day. There was a woman and a man both wearing sunglasses. The woman was driving the Pontiac Grand Prix doing high speed sharp turns on a wide open field. As usual, there is a warning in the bottom of the screen saying "the car is driven by a professional driver on a closed road." As the commercial ends, the women step out the car with a walking stick (Pontiac tries to tell us she is blind I think?) and the slogan "Fuel for the sole" appears on the screen.

So, I guess GM knew their Grand Prix is ugly and only a blind person would buy it. By the way, can a professional driver be blind?

Hey Steve, is there a topic in TH for stupid car commercials? I could think of quite a few of those.

stever · July 2003

Car Commercials: The good, the bad, and the annoying!

Posts like yours help validate my decision to kill my tv back in '99.

Steve, Host

nolid5 · July 2003

Would that be on a shoe or a type of fish? :P

tomtomtom · July 2003

I just realized that...it should be "fuel for the soul"

strokeoluck · July 2003

I was reading someone's idiotic post a few weeks ago about their friend's "foreign "cars that all have 100k miles while the "domestic" cars with 50k miles are puking out. I'm here to say I own a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager with 109k miles and a 2000 Taurus with 104k miles. Both are running great. In addition I owned a '97 Grand Prix three years ago and ran it up to 100k miles and it too ran wonderfully.

I for one am not so sure that the foreign guys have such a leg up on the domestic guys anymore. PARTICULARLY when you factor in the excessive price differences between apples-to-apples models (who in their right mind would pay >$5k more for a foreign car to avoid a $800 head gasket job five years in the future!?!?!?!?).

- Rob

rbell2 · July 2003

I also own a '96 DGC-LE with the 3.3L V-6. I have a 107,000 miles on it. It was the first non-Toyota product I had ever owned. Over this period I only had one really bad incident - a pulley just fell off the bottom of the undercarriage wiping two pumps - $900!! Everything else has been minor. I was looking to trade it for a new Sienna or Ody and I am appalled at the trade-in value - only $2,000 in real money. I originally paid $25,200 plus TTL for this van. Depreciation - that is my biggest complaint with American cars. I traded my '91 Toyota 4Runner with 113,000 miles towards a new '00 4Runner and got $7,000 for it (real money)!! I originally paid $20,700 for it!! I will probably not buy American again for a while - especially since most of the major foreign cars are made in the US by Americans anyway.

caviller · July 2003

Years ago, CR often showed large reliability variances among twin vehicles with USA/Japanese nameplates- Prizm/Corolla, Explorer/Navajo, Villager/Quest, etc. The Japanese branded one always had better reliability, often 2 categories or more. About 5 years ago or maybe earlier, they finally got wise to the criticism of a bias and combined all twins for sake of making their reliability record identical.

Perceptions can play a role in surveys, especially self selected ones like Consumer Reports...

hansienna · July 2003

My son's 2001 Ody EX does not have the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger nor the overhead console with many nice items nor the lighted controls on the doors nor the nice sound system of another son's 2002 Grand Caravan Sport.
The Grand Caravan is quieter and smoother riding than the Odyssey but the Odyssey does have twice the cargo volume behind the 3rd seat that folds into the floor. However, with 3 children, the fold into the floor 3rd seat has little value.
The 2004 Toyota Sienna has all the nice features of the Grand Caravan and the Odyssey + Toyota reliability and a 60/40 split 3rd row seat that also folds into the floor.

strokeoluck · July 2003

rbell2, glad to hear you've had such a reliable PGV!

The depreciation factor, in my opinion, is ALWAYS there with a new car - domestic or foreign. Unless I'm buying a company car I never buy new. I always buy a vehicle with 10-30k miles, as I did with my '96 PGV. So #1, let someone else pay for the depreciation.

#2, I would still argue that the foreign car buyer is paying wayyyyyyyy too much upfront for the "benefit" of having a great trade-in down the road. It's funny you mention the 4Runner (which in my opinion is a great vehicle but highly over-priced; and Joan Collins has had more facelifts in the last ten years than the 4Runner) because a relative of mine has a '91 Explorer with 95k miles. He just turned down an offer of $6k for the truck. Not sure what he paid for it new but I know it had to be less than the 4Runner. A new 4Runner today - well equipped - is $35-$40k+. A new Explorer is $20-$25k+. So in essence the foreign buyer is paying a 40-50% premium upfront (on a much larger amount of $$$) to receive a 15% premium on the backend (on a much smaller amount of $$$).

I'm not a mathmetician but that just doesn't make sense to me.

- Rob

rbell2 · July 2003

Your 4Runner vs. Explorer values are waaaay off. My nephew in B'ham, AL just bought a new '03 4Runner SR-5 with the V-8. Well equipped 2WD and Paid $25,750 (he got $5,000 off the MSRP).

By the way, when I bought my '91 model, a good friend also bought an Explorer (4WD, power everything, cloth seats - just like my 4Runner). He sold it 1 year before I traded mine and got $4,500 for it with about 90,000 miles.

pat84 · July 2003

Interesting.
I traded in my 96 Dodge Grand Caravan on a 99 ODY. I had transmission problems with both. I traded my 99 ODY on a 03 4 Runner V-8 Sport model. I paid invoice + $200 for the 4 Runner. Now my wife and I can drive out on the beach, surf fish, sit in lawn chairs and have cold ones out of a cooler. What minivan transmission problems ?

crkeehn · July 2003

Now let me see.....

You had a 1996 Dodge Caravan and replaced it with a 1999 Odyssey after you suffered transmission problems.

You had a 1999 Honda Odyssey and replaced it with a 2003 4 Runner after you suffered transmission problems on the Odyssey.

I hope you bought the extended warranty on the 4 Runner....

stever · July 2003

Get a manual tranny!

Steve, Host

pat84 · August 2003

I would get a manual transmission if they were offered in minivans. I have had 2 Jeeps, 3 Sports cars, 3 motor cycles, 3 sedans, and a full size van all with manual transmissions. The only clutches I had replaced was 1 on the full size van, but I had it for a little over 140 K miles.. I put 2 on my wife's 84 Monza. A clutch on the Monza lasted about 20K miles. The drive shaft exited the transmission at a sharp angle as a factory design. The 80's were not kind to GM.

stever · August 2003

I have high hopes for a manual on the new VW Microbus. At least a gated shifter or Tiptronic!

Last manual on a mainstream US minivan was the early Caravans -- I don't remember if they were column or floor shifters.

Steve, Host

fezo · August 2003

If anybody made a minivan with them they'd have had my business.

I really don't remember where the shifter was on those old Caravans. My brother's brother-in-law has one that I've never see - over 200,000 miles on the thing! 4 cylinders.

hansienna · August 2003

Very few Americans want a manual transmission.
    Most Americans prefer the Grand Caravan size which Honda adopted with the 1999 Odyssey and now Toyota has used for the 2004 Sienna.
    The shorter Mazda MPV is a nice minivan but apparently the size is not right for most minivan purchasers.
    Question: Will the new Quest start another trend of stretching the size of minivans?

stever · August 2003

The new Quest is huge. As big as, if not bigger, than the current Odyssey and new Sienna.

Steve, Host

user777 · August 2003

funny, because my wife and i thought if someone made a manual van, that's what we'd prefer driving since that's all that we've ever driven.

On an MPV, I could have imagined a manual transmission option helping out the engine / transmission combination (that's just my opinion).

as far as automation and a preference against automation creep, i prefer the additional control i have over a vehicle with a manual transmission. it keeps me actively engaged in the driving effort...

one annoyance: its taking some getting used to applying the brakes when comming up to a light and simultaneously feeling the transmission down-shifting without me doing any work. i find myself mentally making a note, and explaining that to myself when i experience it.

i am probably one of those americans in the minority: another thing i don't value is cuise control. i never use mine except once in a long while to verify that it still works.

i think i need to retrain my brain w.r.t. the ABS too. you know - we are supposed to forget what we learned about pumping the brakes, and in a panic stop, stand on the brakes with ABS...supposidly only a professional driver could do better in that situation.

i hear some of the new vans will assist the driver in parking and keeping following distance.

oh joy.

not only is there a reduction in driving pleasure and active engagement in the task, there's that increase in complexity, cost and the potential reliability impact because the cars are getting more feature rich.

and while i'm at it, all this automation makes it easier for the cell phone lovers (you know who you are) to keep talking... you know... instead of driving!!!

yikes.

pat84 · August 2003

Why don't you tell us what you really think ?
I am with you 100%
I'd even prefer a RWD stick shift minivan. That way you could down shift and use engine braking descending steep grades, and to slow down in bad weather and maintain stability. What a concept.

bdaddy · August 2003

I wish they made a minivan with an engine crank so you wouldn't need a battery that will eventually die, leaving you stranded. Sooner or later, you know it's going to happen.

I try not to think too much about the people who talk on cell phones while driving. For the most part, they are all self absorbed and thinking of themselves enough that they don't require my thoughts.

nolid5 · August 2003

Hey Mr. Flintstone, why don't you just cut out the floorboards and use your feet. Think of the gas you would save.:>

crkeehn · August 2003

The crank would have to extend through the side of the van since most (all?) minivans nowadays have transverse engines. I think nolid5 has the right idea.

user777 · August 2003

it's not necessary to have a crank sticking out of the front or the side.

someone could design an automatic transmission linkage with a dedicated shifter position (for those people who miss the pleasures of starting a stick with a dead battery): you have this spring which is tightened as you push your vehicle backwards. then you hop in, engage one of the forward gears and bam you're off...hopefully the engine turns over, otherwise you get to do it again and again!

works on my kids' cars just fine...they don't have a crank.

think of the enjoyment and satisfaction (and danger - yeah) trying this on a majorly congested metropolitan highway, or say in the city...you know, over resorting to using a <<cell phone>> to call for assistance.

argh argh argh

crkeehn · August 2003

I forgot about that mechanism, my son has a PT Cruiser that does that.

What happens when the spring breaks? Remember we're talking about the Odyssey and DC vans here.

and yes, I'm cranky quite often ;-D

pat84 · August 2003

You wouldn't need a starting crank. Just get another donut spare for your Honda. Put on the emergency brake, and then put both smaller diameter donut spares on the front.
Get in and let off the emergency brake. The Honda will start rolling down hill. When it gets fast enough, put it in gear and it'll start right up.

maltb · August 2003

my son has a PT Cruiser that does that.

So that means you have three wind up toys now?

biyonic2 · October 2003

Here is the 1 year update for our Silver 2003 T&C EX. We have over 16000 miles on the van - mostly city and a few medium road trips (less than 500 mi one way).

Reliability is perfect - read no problemos. We are very picky people and technically can pick out problems. There are none due to DCX engineering.

Maintenance:

I have personally changed the oil/filter myself (don't trust the quicky places) every 4000-5000 miles.

I have only had to fill up the tires once - for whatever that's worth.

Gas Mileage: per onboard computer - 19 MPG city 23.5 MPG HWY

Likes: Still glad we opted for the 3.8 L engine. The EX fits all of our needs although the LTD's look better. Favorite features are the sliding powered doors. And I actually like the split rear bench. I feel that the foot room and quality of the third row seating is more important than a disappearing seat. Torquey, nimble and solid around town and on the highway. Quiet engine and tranny with seemless shifting. Nice stereo sound and comfy seats and ergo. Excellent brakes. Kid's love this way more than our old SUV.

Dislikes: Time for a 5 speed tranny DCX. Highway high speed accelleration/gearing (above 60+ mph) not up to my standards. Power is there - just not getting to the wheels efficiently.

Notes: I take issue with the $$$ UAW worker(s) who can't seem to completly push in/seat the fake wood facia to the center console, can't fully snap in the black plastic cable gaurd in the sliding door, and can't seem to fully screw in almost all of the door latching/guides on passenger side doors of the van. Some day I want to get reimbursed for the Torx set I had to buy. I also want to gripe again that DCX downfeatured the defrost wiper blades and removed switch LEDs from the 2003 model which is cheesy lame.

Would we buy this again? Yes. My wife loves it and it is her van.

Other cars we have owned all driven from new to to 90K+ mi:

Honda Civic, Honda Prelude, Acura Legend, Jeep "heap" Grand Cherokee

outback589 · October 2003

I think the Odyssey is overrated. The Grand Caravan has just as much interior room and is thousands of dollars cheaper. Plus, the Odyssey is downright ugly and boxy. I like my minivan to have some curves. The Odyssey has some tough new competition from the Quest, Sienna, Sedona and Freestar. It about time the Odyssey got some plastic surgery and a lower price.

strokeoluck · November 2003

Hello all, our '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager was recently stolen so it put us in the market for another minivan. I hate buying new and taking the $ hit so we went shopping for a used van. Thank God we only shop for a used van every five years...the process SUCKS - even with the internet.

Anyway we found a 2003 Chrysler T&C with 1200 miles on it. They swapped out the middle bucket seat for two captain chairs (our kids are getting to the age where they are ahhhh...driving each other nuts) and installed a roof rack. All the rest is fairly basic: am/fm cassette, power windows, power locks, etc. That's all we had in our last van and it's all we needed in this one. Cost on this thing was $18,000. $18,000!?!?!?!? We paid $16,500 in 1999 for a '96 with 30,000 miles on it. And today we get a (virtually) new one with a 7/70 warranty for $18,000. Amazing. I'm very pleased. I briefly considered buying a Honda (our neighbors have one, their kids are constantly destroying something on it and it costs them an arm and a leg to have the mechanic fly to Japan to buy the new part and then fly back to install it) or a Sienna but even the two year old used ones were going for $20k+. New will run you $25k+. A whole lotta things can go wrong on ours for that $7,000 spread. Our Plymouth held up very well over 115,000 miles, and it was the "bad" year of 1996. Ironically my 2000 Ford Taurus has 107,000 and it too is performing wonderfully. Previous to that my Pontiac Grand Prix went to 100,000 before I traded it and it ran like a top. I think U.S. quality is vastly improved and the foreign makers are holding on for dear life to their high margins. It's more of a status issue than anything.

The company I work for is the largest buyer of vehicles from one of the country's largest fleet management firms. Their reps constantly tell me that they love selling Toyotas because there's more markup in them (thus more commission) but...every single one of the reps drives an American car. When I ask why they say "are you NUTS, I'd never pay a 20% premium to drive a foreign car!!!". I think that says it all folks.

- R

jackleg · November 2003

Have to post this given that my Town and Countries transmission died at 83,000 miles 2 weeks ago . AC compressor and driver side window motor at 77,000 miles . Paid 2500 bucks to have the trans and window motor repaced just so I could trade the thing in. A/C system would've been another $1200 . It's also nice to know that Chryslers hold very little of their value . Went with the Honda this time . I think they are ugly but at this point I'm just hoping the vehicle will at least last until it's paid for . Or at least no major failures like the Chrysler . I personally will NEVER buy another Chrysler product . It's a shame as they are by far the best looking mini van on the market but probably have the worst reliability . I hear I'm lucky I went 77,000 with no major problems . Pathetic . You know it's bad when the tow truck pulls into the mechanics shop and he's pricing transmissions before even putting on the rack . I told him he was crazy , that there is no way the trans could be shot at 80,000 . He asked me if I really wanted to know how many he's done on these vehicles . Turned out he was right . I hope I have more luck this time .

drwilsc · November 2003

Has anyone seen Comsumer Reports recent article on minivans. The Odyssey is simply the quickest/fastest minivan available. Its 0-60 time of 8.4 sec was easily the quickest. It was much faster than the Grand Caraven, with even the 3.8 liter engine (not the 3.3), which only managed a 9.7 sec 0-60 time. Other publcations, such as Motor Trend, have produced similar numbers (8.4 for the Ody, 9.4 for the 3.8 liter DC van). I have seen people in various boards imply that their 3.8 liter Chrysler vans are as quick or quicker than Odysseys, and they simply are not.

tomtomtom · December 2003

Are you looking for a sports car or a minivan? 1.3 sec is not much in the world of minivan. I bet you will have different 0-60 every time if you try to do the test on your own.

rickpct · December 2003

Hi,

Beginning to look at minivan as my lease on our wagon ends in March.

We're a family of 4 - wagon is just a tad too small, so I am looking at the smaller minivans - which offer more space - and extra people capacity. I prefer not to get the larger vans - $ is not issue - just don;t need the extra foot of room!

As I read the various boards - it seems that EVERY minivan - Mazda, DCX, Honda have transmission problems! I like the design considerations of the DCX vans (caravan and voyager)but have heard of transmission problems - but I also understand that a new 7-70 warranty is in effect. What does it really cover? I know its engine and transmission - but is it only certain parts? Parts that are least likely to cause problems?

Also, anyone do any occassional towing with the smaller DCX vans? I own a sailboat - weighs 3000 lbs - would tow 2x per year.
Thanks,

Rick in Connecticut.

pat84 · December 2003

I briefly considered buying a Honda (our neighbors have one, their kids are constantly destroying something on it and it costs them an arm and a leg to have the mechanic fly to Japan to buy the new part and then fly back to install it.
The Odyssey was first built in Canada. It's now built in the U.S. I owned a 99 Odyssey. All the parts were readily available in the U.S with no flights to Japan. If a part were required from Japan it could be overnight expressed. BTW how many U.S workers are fluent enough in Japanese
to order Odyssey parts ?
The 3 rebuilt transmissions it took before they had one they could install to replace my bad one were rebuilt in such far away lands as Virginia, Illinois and California. The CA transmission was the good one. Honda paid for it. This was before they extended the warranty. BTW I traded in a 96 Dodge Grand Caravan on the Odyssey. The DC tranny went out at 72 K miles. The ODY went out at 68K miles.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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