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Other concerns: not so sure about the looks of this. I suppose it's in the interest of keeping it familiar, but IMHO it's a bit too close to a jetta/passat/phaeteon/a4/a6/a8. To me these all look nice (un-offensive?), but the look is over done and kinda mundane. Maybe it'll grow on me.
Not to reignite the discussion from the 4runner board, but this is the only thing I consider even a remote competitor for the Toyota. Yes each of these have different strengths, but they both seem to blend the best of on and offroad capabilities. They just accomplish it in different ways. I am a bit concerned about the reliabillity of all of the very complex systems on the VW. As for the Toy, well someone recently brought up the point (intmed99 I think) about the new torsen ceter diff on the 4runner being a bit of an unknown quantity. Is it gear based (more preferable), or some other less reliable system, like a wet clutch? I guess time will tell on both of these.
Foghorn48: of course looks are very subjective, but if the Touareg bears some resemblance to the A4/A6/Phaeteon, most would say that you're paying it a great compliment.
VW is very serious about the vehicle performing as a first class off roader, it has a low range and three locking differentials, the Phaeton is also a brand new design but with first class road manners.
To tell the truth the more I read about the Touareg the better it sounds, to the point that I will seriously consider the vehicle, and too bad the V10 is not going to be available rigth away if not I would be first in line.
In other words, "Uniframe" is more for advertisement to claim, "the best of both worlds." It is not. In off-roading, there is simply no substitute for body-on-frame when going over un-even terrain. A unibody will bend no matter what enhancements you have made to the structure.
On the other hand, take a look at Acura MDX which has clutch packs in the rear diff. You have to change the fluid every 7500 miles...and this is when owners don't off-road at all! Just imagine if someone actually off-roads with the MDX! Just look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee, which has clutch-packs for it's 3 differential (similar to Touareg)...it makes all sorts of noises and the earlier versions had MANY mechanical problems...many had to be replaced after a few off-roading trips!
Clutch-packs don't last long! Most off-roaders avoid clutch-pack limited-slip differential like the plaque! That is why they much prefer Torsen LSD or lockers.
For my money (at that price range), i would get an LX470 or G500. Maybe even the Range Rover (quality is still a question).
I have an ML Mercedes SUV and a Mercedes Unimog 406, talk about two extremes, the Unimog is so off road dedicated that for any distance I have to truck it, the transmission has so many gears that at hwy speeds (if you can call 50mph hwy speed) overheats, and is all mechanical, double clutch, 21speed forward and 8 reverse, in worm gear mode it has a 4000 to 1 reduction, will make a 1/4 mile in 5 hours at full throtle (2500rpms on the diesel engine) three locking differentials and four sets of reduction gears at each wheel (portal axels) is really a tractor dressed like a vehicle. Most Mogers are always trying to get more Hwy speed out of their vehicles, the saying goes one contacted one of the Mercedes engineers to find out how he could make his Mog go faster (gearing wise), the engineer replied, if you wanted to go fast why did you get a Unimog.
Talking about frames, I doubt you will find any vehicle in the world with a thicker frame for its size, over 1/2 inch for a vehicle that has a shorter wheel base than my Porsche and it will twist!! The truth is that a monocoque body is stiffer than a frame on body because the uper part of the body acts as a giant truss and is ligther, as long as the attachment points for the major mechanical components are of substance no problem there for that limited use. In fact Mercedes decided to eliminate the frame on the next generation of ML SUV's.
I agree with you 100% on consumers not off-roading with their expensive toys.
Well, unibody is not always stronger than frame. I am assuming the Touareg is quite strong. However, if you place one left front and one right rear wheel on a hill, can you open and close the doors on a unibody SUV?? Most unibodies cannot do this. Touareg may be different, but i am waiting to see this.
48, I am sure if we can think about it, the engineers at VW were burning brains over the structural integrity. Lets not forget that VW was one of the pioneers of frameless construction with the Bettle, they have over 60 years of experience and the rigidity of the VW Bettle is without question, the same car is still being built in Mexico and the design was so good that I know of no improvements needed ever since, ironically it was a Ferdinand Porsche design and 60 years later this vehicle has been designed in conjunction with Porsche, Porsche builds the 911 (frameless) and the same body has been in production for more than 37 years (nominated one of the best designs ever), testament to the design is the fact that the 911 has won more than 20,000 races and the same track car has won the Paris Dakar race (amazing that a race car dominated off road vehicles they arrived 1,2 and 6), the only modifications were taller tires and raised suspension. Something tells me is going to be a way better design than the Jeep Cherokee.
Intmed99 and I recently had a somewhat spirited debate over in the 4Runner forums regarding the Touareg's off road ability and its articulation, or lack there of, as he would point out. In the CAR road/off-road test, there are pictures that clearly point out this lack of articulation. Unlike intmed99, I'm willing to give these "clutch packs" some slack. If and when they prove faulty, as intmed99 predicts, I will hop on his bandwagon, but not before...
Of interest, however, in the CAR article, was mention of an optional off-road package which, besides having more ground clearance, selectively locking front and rear difs, a tire pressure adjustment device, more off-road oriented tires, and will also include "switchable* anti-roll bars" for much greater wheel articulation. It sounds like this will be available the following year, after it's debut.
And, yes, they (CAR) compare it's off-road capability very favorably against the new Range Rover. In fact, they predict it will put a scare in the established* (off-road) stars.
• = CAR's words, not mine.
Bob
Remember, with a unibody, if you bend/warp one section (off-roading, towing, etc.), you are screwed! Because to replace that defective section, you need to CUT the defective sheetmetal and then RE-weld the new sheetmetal...after which, i wonder how strong (integrity, stiffness, etc.) is the rest of the unibody??
For example, of all people, why did Ford design the Ford Explorer to have FRAME?? Why does the Excursion have FRAME?? Why did GMC Envoy have FRAME?? Please note that these vehicles do NOT tow more than the Range Rover or Touareg, but they have frame specifically for towing purposes. In general, unibody is CHEAPER to make than body-on-frame...thus the current trend among SUVs. In addition, unibody's tend to have better crash testing scores because it is easier to design a safety cage. Of course, there are exceptions to this. Why do you think the Toyota 4Runner (3rd gen) and Land Cruiser cost so much...i mean you don't get much relatively in terms of luxury, but they are the class leaders in cost. TLC has no wood and no standard side curtain airbags, yet costs over $50K...compare that to it's luxurious competition and you will see what i mean.
As to clutch packs, the jury's still out. The only way you can prove their success or failure is over a long period of time. Also, even if one or several brands may have had problems with them, does not mean the *concept* is faulty; just the execution. It's very possible (and probable) that another brand can and will correct those problems, and offer a durable product. It's happened may times in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.
Bob
Remember, Acura MDX rear differential (clutches) is made by Bord-Warner. They have a very good reputation. I think they also design the Mercedes ML's traction control system (not sure though). It maybe that they also design the Touareg's system.
Clutch packs are not bad. They are perfectly fine for 99.9% of Touareg drivers because none of them will off-road with any regularity, especially when their SUV costs $70K or something. If they are so bad, then no one would use them. They are fine for limited duty.
Clutch-packs run into a problem during heavy duty off-roading. It is NOT the quality that limits them, it is the DESIGN. Clutch packs simply don't last long if you abuse it.
What i am annoyed is how VW is annoucing that this Touareg will take the off-roading world by storm! Are they nuts? A unibody...that looks like a station wagon more than an SUV. All-independent suspension with TINY & SHORT control arms (no wheel travel). They claim this because they have "locking differentials x 3." I mean i can modify a Toyota Camry and put in lockers front, center, and rear, and be just as capable! Oh yeah, throw in a V10 diesel engine. VW is just trying to "distinguish" this SUV from the crowd (MDX, Highlander, Merc. ML, X5) by claiming this.
VW and Audi doesn't even have a history of making trucks or SUVs!
In any event, you will not be convinced one bit until a head-to-head showdown occurs here in the United States, so we might as well table the discussion, as that's probably a good 6-9 months off, at best. I don't think I could stand bashing our brains out over this until that occurs.
I take it you either haven't read, or choose to ignore, the European automotive press. They think pretty highly of it, as an off-roader. As to your comments:
<< What i am annoyed is how VW is annoucing that this Touareg will take the off-roading world by storm! >>
They're late to the game and they know it. So, whatever they offer better be impressive.
<< Are they nuts? A unibody...that looks like a station wagon more than an SUV. >>
So...?
<< All-independent suspension with TINY & SHORT control arms (no wheel travel). They claim this because they have "locking differentials x 3." I mean i can modify a Toyota Camry and put in lockers front, center, and rear, and be just as capable! Oh yeah, throw in a V10 diesel engine. >>
If it gets you from point A to point B, who cares how it's done. BTW, it's pretty impressive diesel. I hope it comes over.
<< VW is just trying to "distinguish" this SUV from the crowd (MDX, Highlander, Merc. ML, X5) by claiming this. >>
We'll see...
Bob
Yet, look at what happens when they start to export the Freelander to our soil...low volume sales. Freelander is ranked near last in every competition (except Car & Driver's competition with Jeep Liberty). It is more of a joke to us (poor quality, poor off-road ability, poor engine power...but decent handling).
However, everywhere in the world, people are praising the Toyota trucks and SUVs (esp. Land Cruiser and Prado).
A picture of the VW Iltis.
http://192.9.5.5/~uni/mog/iltis/iltis4.jpg
Steve, Host
Off-roading is off-roading, regardless of where you live. I enjoy reading the European automotive press. I find it refreshing, and it gives a different (and often enlightening & refreshing) perspective not found in US car rags. UK's CAR is a favorite of mine.
Bob
Bob
VWAG press release --complete specs and features: click here.
VWVortex Touareg Model Index: click here.
I want one!! ...too bad they're not offering the 6-speed manual here in the U.S. If they were, I'd be first in line.
--'rocco
Link is too long to post here, so I added it at the top of a page I just compiled containing a list of links to the Touareg reviews, articles, tests that I've found so far:
http://www.dawgpak.com/touareg/
Let me know if I missed any good ones!
Also, I'm looking at the Toyota 4Runner and have created a page for it too:
http://www.dawgpak.com/4Runner/
Any thoughts on 4Runner vs. Touareg??
I think VW is making the right choice with the Touareg by not squeezing 20 lbs. into a 15 lbs. bag. Having a more spacious second row without the third, one can more routinely accommodate passengers in greater comfort.
It is quite possible that the second row in the XC90 can slide back when the third row is not in use. When it is in use, all I can say is there better be children or very small adults in the second and third rows.
Off-topic, but despite the small accommodations of the XC90's third row, Volvo does not recommend putting child seats there, and there are no top tether anchors as a result. So they're mostly for older kids and small adults.
Oh, wmquan thanks for having my back. Finally someone else who sees my point about the third row.
Let's see if I can explain it correctly. The "V" stands for two banks of cylinders aligned in a V. The "R" comes from the German word "Reihe" which translates to mean "inline" thus VR6 comes to mean "inline 6 cylinder with a V configuration. Now this sounds contradictory, doesn't it? Well, not really if you look at the design and what the engineers were trying to accomplish because it's a good description of actually what's going on. The engine is really an interactive combination of a V and an inline design. Because of the narrow angle of the V, it allows for the stuffing of 6 cyliners in a package that is not that much bigger than a four cylinder engine with a single compact cyliner head that covers both cylinder banks.
VW has had more than a decade to iron out and correct any flaws in this design so I really don't think we should have much worry with reliability nor durability. It's one sweet engine.
The new 3.2 liter VR6 will also be used in the Phaeton and the R32 Golf but it will be modified for use in the Touareg. It is specifically designed to be used in an off-road vehicle with a modified oil pump, an "adaptive" sump and a revised belt drive.
VW's electrical problems seem to be a thing of the past. I remember with not much fondness, the early VWs which I've owned and the frustrations I encountered pertaining to the electrical systems and components. I don't hear of those things now on modern VWs. My Audi's electricals have been flawless so far.
If you need more information, I have lots of links on Volkswagen history along with realibility/dependability figurues, etc.
--'rocco
The VR6 is a very creative packaging solution, but it does result in some tradeoffs. It is a complex engine. The balance shafts and complex crank required by the unusual configuration undoubtedly result in increased friction -- more moving parts. I'd much rather have a true inline 6 or a proper 60 degree V6, but neither would fit in a GTI. The V10 TDI -- now there's an interesting engine. 500 ft-lbs and still 25+ mpg in something as big as the Touareg.
VW electrical problems a thing of the past? On Saturday my sunroof wouldn't close. I opened up the fuse box, pulled the sunroof fuse, but it looked fine so I replaced it. Then the sunroof worked. On a couple occasions I've had my cruise control stop working, only to have it start working the next day. My bigger concern than that is my 2nd gear synchro. VW has known that this transmission has had problems for years, and done nothing to fix it.
VW has some really compelling cars. I just wish they'd solve these design problems, rather than letting them fester for years before fixing them (e.g., the whole window regulator thing).
Yes, although I've been a VW fan for years ...even back to the 60s Bettle I had for a time in high school, --that's right, I'm an old far* ~cries in pain~ -- I don't consider VW the most reliable of brands out there. Durable, maybe, but reliability wise, they aren't going to keep up with the Japanese. But it seems like everytime I own a Japanese car, I always seem to long for another VW. I always miss that certain character they have ...that certain feeling I get when at the wheel. Granted, no VW I've owned has ever been as reliable as the Japanese cars I've had but it seems like I always come back to VW (or a VAG product) after every Japanese car I've owned.
I currently own a year and a half old Audi A4 but what I'm looking at the Touareg to replace is a Subaru Forester I now drive as a "utility" type vehicle. Sure, there are other Japanese SUVs which I could choose from but as I say, I again long for the "feeling" and character of a VAG product.
I still have to imagine that the electrical problems are much less in number and severity than they used to be and the 2.8 VR6 engine doesn't have half as many "issues" now as it did when it first came out. Yes, there will probably always be certain "issues" with VW engines --again, more so than with comparable Japanese engines-- but I probably will always be interested in VWs, never-the-less.
--'rocco
So it's probably a good thing that you have time on your side to maybe avoid the first year models if you can. I know some will dispute this theory but statistically, I believe it's traditionally true.
--'rocco
You're right about Japanese cars. My previous car was an '87 Integra 5 door that I bought new. Sold it in 1999 with 130k+ miles. Very reliable car.
Keep the trick IFS/IRS suspension and 6-speed dual-range auto & manual trannys, and make the V6 the large engine with smaller engine options available. Cut out a lot of the luxury stuff, and offer cloth seats. I think it would sell like lemonaid on hot summer day...
Bob
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-11-10-autos_x.htm
A "mini-4runner" wouldn't quite be the same thing as a mini-Touareg, but if they keep most of the 4runner's drivetrain, not a bad alternative. It'd certainly be an interesting alternative to the Forester / CR-V / RAV4 set.
This I knew was coming. Toyota would very much like to ge those Xterra customers. I just hope it's more refined than the Xterra, in terms of running gear.
* Car-based SUV smaller than the RAV4, probably derived from the Corolla Matrix sport wagon.
This may be overkill. Do we really need another car-based mini ute?
* Sport-utility pickup like the Chevrolet Avalanche.
This is new news to me. I hope it's built off the new 4-Runner, and not the larger Sequoia, with its excellent running gear.
Bob
Your experience with the VW dealer is common. Last week at the auto show I asked a fairly nice young woman at the VW desk whether brochures were available on the Touareg. (The Porche desk already had some printed material with specifications about the upcoming Cayenne.) She dutifully responded that there was not at this time, but suggested that I should in the meantime check out vw.com and vwvortex web sites for the most up to date info. When I asked about the status of the V10 tdi becoming available, a puzzled look came over her face. She turned to her associate who similarly had no idea what I was talking about. It's too bad they didn't follow their own advice and done a little research outside the corporate meetings they are required to attend.
AW
P.S. A few years ago, I was at the Photo Marketing Association trade show in Las Vegas. At the Olympus booth, I overheard one of the models asking another which agency she was working for. After turning around to look at the sign above her head, she replied "Olympus." You can make this stuff up.