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Comments
I expect the XLR to compete much more closely with the SL500. I agree that the SC and SL aren't too comparable. They target slightly different audiences. There probably would be some cross-shopping, but then again you will have people cross-shopping an Excursion against a 911 to figure out what they want to be seen in, or what their priorities are.
I have an MB with the ABC system, it is a very impressive and useful feature of the car. I have not tried the SL, there is not one availible near me right now. I will likely wait for the SL55 anyway, it suits my tastes better. That is probably what this boils down to, personal taste/preferances. Lexus, in general, makes cars that are rather bland driving when compared to the european competition. Sure they are a good value, sure they offer impressive option loads, but they do not drive the way I expect a car to drive. I also find the styling to be Japanese wierd, they have yet to style an attractive car.
Do you know a lot of people with cars in that price range? How do you KNOW they use the nav systems? The peole I know that own these cars generally live in the city and commute to and from work. They go the same route everyday, they know the way, they rarely use nav. I have used my Benz' nav system. It is so easy to use that my wife tried it first. We bought the car in California, 2500 miles from home. We had to get from downtown LA to the Ontario airport in rush hour traffic, we had no map. The only instruction she had was the 10 minutes the salesman spent on it during delivery, no book reading, no prior experience. She simply used the command system to look up the airport and the voice told here where to go. It was very simple, and very helpful. My guess is that you have never tried the system. It worked flawlessly for me. I have also read that the touch screen in the Lexus tends to look dirty due to fingerprints on the screen. Pretty classy set-up.
Like the MB nav system, I doubt you have experienced the ABC system. You do not need an autobahn to appreciate it. It eliminates pitch and roll in everyday driving, almost completely. It imparts a sense of control and stability not found in other cars.
So, there seem to be two items you can pick on here. You insist that dvd nav is infinately superior to cd based systems because it uses one disc instead of 9. Then you require a cd player in the dash. You make it sound like the MB doesn't even have nav or cd. They do, it is just a little different system. With just the smallest amout of brainpower you can load the cd magazine and proper nav cd before you depart. You are good to go for hours then. It is certainly not the issue you want to make it out to be.
sphinx99,
That's because you're not reading the right magazines. R&T, SCI have both said wonderful things about the SL500, and Sports Car International has said that the SL500 is quite possibly the best car on the road or the "perfect automobile", the SC430 hasn't got that in the year or so it's been on the market. You guys kill me, just because C&D did gush you can't even read anyone else's review of the car. PICK UP OTHER MAGAZINES!
On that R&T best convertibles issue. I know they picked the Corvette, 911 Carrera, and 360 Modena, not sure what the others were. I will have to search the vault for the issue to give you the others.
M
I'd be very interested in links to online articles about the SL. So far I have read three on edmunds.com (which is by far my favorite auto review site on the net) and one on C&D (which is my second favorite). I don't read R&T because www.roadandtrack.com doesn't post any meat from the magazine online and I'm not planning to subscribe. I don't claim to be close minded or brush off articles that differed from my opinions as being patently "wrong" like you've been doing. Feel free to educate me with articles I can read that present the SL500 in better light. Like I said, most of my reading comes right out of edmunds.com and at least according to Edmunds, the SL500 is something of a lukewarm vehicle.
Yeah those 200K+ people that bought MB's last year didn't want them. Please!
sphinx99,
If R&T said something bad about a Mercedes so be it. I *usually* agree with most of the magazines, but sometimes MT hasn't a clue. That M3/Z06 comparo being one of those times.
At least you're willing to read other sources and not live/die by a single magazine and draw conclusions soley by a "book". I have quite a bit of experience with MB's though I don't own one. Never said C&D was wrong in the sense you shouldn't read them, I was saying that Toyotas1 to imply that he isn't reading anything other than C&D.
M
"With its stunning good looks, cutting edge technology, scintillating performance, world-class handling, plus nearly every luxury in the industry, the SL500 is a true benchmark automobile with only one major shortcoming--price. At almost $90K, it is not a car for everyman"
Also, it posted a near-record slalomm time of 67.6 mph, second only to the Porsche GT2.
How all this translates, R&T says, is that compared to the competition, except for straight line acceleration (the Jag XKR is a bit faster), the SL500 will "clean up" in all other areas.
Last sentence in article "M-B's latest hi-tech popper is a real showstopper".
M
kdude the same article states the 2003 CL will only have bumper changes and the S will have an all new interior. Both look like available supercharged engines are coming as well.
The car took some getting used to, particularly the brakes which have very little traditional feel. It wasn't until I put 500 miles on this car that I can say that I began to fall in love with it. And really, it wasn't until I as on the autobahn that I really began to appreciate it. At 100 MPH it was outstanding. I took it up to 135 MPH even though I wasn't supposed to during the break in, but when else will I get a chance to drive it like this legally.
I LOVE THIS CAR.
The fact is that ANYBODY will sell more vehicles than Mercedes in any class and it only proves just that.
The SL600 is around the corner and it will cost close to 140,000$ and the AMG versions even more, the interesting thing would be to see if a Lexus will sell for for 140,000$, noway Jose.
What Lexus people fail to understand is that there is a point were the affluent is also interested in "exclusivity and prestige", more gadgets and gizmos become irrelevant, they are far removed from the Chevy vs Ford mentality, they are also removed from this "value" argument.
People who buy the high end cars, have an idea of what they want and how much it will cost, they don't have to ask, is a completely different segment from those that are milling around the lot and the 900$ from one model to the other makes the difference wether they can buy or not.
Mercedes will raise the ante even further with the Maybach and again all discussions will be academic, more likely a Maybach purchaser will pick up the phone and order one, his biggest dilemma may be the colors and delivey date.
Toyota fans also tend to think as if they invented technology, I guess that is why Toyota research & development Gmbh, is located in Germany and also the formula one project is located in Germany and raided Porsche, Mercedes, BMW to design and build the car.
The second generation ABC is a major leap for MB, this new technology is seriously impressive, miles ahead of the heavy and clumsy systems on the first generation Q45. I don't think I would order another MB without the ABC.
It is true, the effect in the SL is unreal.
However, as I said before, the lack of roll is simply amazing.
M
Seriously, I was wondering how you would compare it to other roadsters like a Boxster S, or even other sport convertibles like the M3 or CLK430/55. I have been offered a test drive, but I don't want to wear out my welcome, since they gave me a C32 to try out for a day last fall and there is no chance I would ever seriously consider buying an SL (unless they stick a 6-speed in the SL55, and I win the lottery).
CL55 AMG Cabrios, at 132K a piece. Mercedes has not ruled out having the CL Cabrio as a
regular model in the MB lineup. Autoweek May 13th, issue.
M
Comparing the R230 SL500 with other roadsters.. The SL is the only one with a durable easy to maintain hard top. It's not the fastest but most civilized and user friendly, and definitely the safest. With all the SUVs out there, if I were to collide with one in a convertible, I would rather be in the SL.
Personally, I rather have a two door coupe and not a convertible as a true sports car, the SL500 to me is a luxurious cruiser which can go topless in very little time. It has the best interior (make sure you order the stone color interior - light cream color with walnut wood), it's has the best fit and finish with leather everywhere, the interior is far nicer than the M3, CLK, Boxster, 996, 360, SC430, TT, etc.
The way it drives? It's not the outright boy racer fastest convertible for the money but its excellent driving dynamics (lack of body roll, unreal brakes, stability in sharp turns and braking) will put many sportier and lighter roadsters to shame.
And the best thing about the car? It's excellent resale value, if you buy in cash, the cost of ownership is very little. My MB dealer told me outright that if I were to trade it in within a year, they would take it back at full MSRP!
From the sounds of your experience, the new SL it is indeed a vast improvement over the previous model. I am still personally attracted to cars that are more engaging of the driver - i.e. manual transmission being the biggest item. I know that the new automatics from AMG are probably quicker shifting than I am, but I still enjoy the connection that comes with shifting myself. I'm 45, so the chances of me outgrowing this desire are diminishing. But, if I do, AMG would be where I would look.
If you end up in a new SL, you have my hearty congratulations!
Actually, one simply cannot find a SL even at MSRP+$10k and the dealer offered cash back in a year's time. Although I haven't entertained this offer too seriously, I quite doubt they will really put where their mouth is.
That is, the Sl is virtually in a class of one, except perhaps the XK series, but even that is a shady assertion.
The SL Class is 50 years old! That is, one model has been around for 50 years continuously!
I don't know about anyone else, but the 300SL-like styling really gets me off. I've seen the Benz in traffic and it's gorgeous, it makes the CL CLass look v. bland by comparison!
Anyway, I used to have an S Class from the 80s, specifically a 500SEL, and it's true, that Benz did not do interiors like say, Jag. or Rolls, but there was a feeling of quality. Maybe, they used plastic a lot on the dash instead of leather like Rolls, but the plastic had Quality.
The last Benz I drove that had that feeling was the current E Class. There is no denying the fact that MB is changing- for better or worse.
The plastics on some cars have gotten cheaper, witness the S-Class and C-Class (Altho. the S is still a nice place to spend time).
Benz Cars now are less distinctive to drive than before. In the 80s, Benz was synonymous with "Tank."
They were heavy cars that were built more for Autobahn cruising in a straight line at high speeds than driving around town as painlessly as possible. But I was always amazed at their turning circles. I guess a consequence of Germany not having as much room as the US.
Anyway, MBs have become much nimbler on their feet, and hence, as a result, lose some of that tanklike feel. As I said before - for better or worse. BMW drivers might say better, MB drivers from the 80s might say worse.
The interior designers now, have tried to use more organic shapes that are pleasing to the eye, in contrast to the earlier "function first, form last" approach.
Witness the dials on the SL55, the Clocklike things, MB never would have done that sort of purely-asthetic thing before. I'm not criticizing it - on the contrary, I like it. But, just another example of how their approach has changed.
Lexus makes some great quality interiors, although, IMHO, the LS430 interior is not as good as the LS400's. The SC430 is quite distinctive though, and lately I have been seeing quite a few on the roads. Bottom line: for Lexus, the interior is a major focus, that is, passenger comfort. One major example is the unnecessary, (but appreciated) lengths they went to with the stereo (Nakamichi, now Mark Levin.); for MB the main thing is how the car drives, that is why the SL500 is better than the SC dynamically.
I for one want the tank thing back, let BMW battle it out with who has the highest slalom speeds and the most grip. A Benz is about quality, safety, power, security and performance last. They'll never out-BMW BMW. They should be able to combine the tank-like construction with the new generation styling, that would be perfect.
M
I had considered replacing my sedan in 1999 and found that, although I prefer the BMW 5-series over the E-class as a "sport" sedan, the E300 Turbodiesel, of all things, was extremely tempting. Solid build, great fuel economy, a reputation for lasting a lifetime and still very decent performance (same 0-60 time as my old 1984 Toyota Supra). Had I not elected to postpone replacing my sedan, I am guessing I would have gone with the Mercedes. Looking forward, a new E-class turbodiesel 4-matic wagon would be a no-brainer to replace our SUV with in a couple of years. I could pass it on to my kids who could pass it on to theirs, and so on. BMW has it's sports niche. Mercedes should stick with what it does best. I like "different" choices, not "wannabe's".
M
Eg. the M3 was released to boost sales 3 yrs. after the original current 3 series; the Type R Integra, several years after original; Last gen. Civic Si; Corvette Z06
Usually a manufacturer will drum up a power boost on a new model at least a few years after intro. One can say that Benz is no mere "ordinary" automaker, but then BMW does follow that practice, with the M3 and M5.