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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    You can even fish out of the back of it!

    Well I might have stretched that part a little, although it's possible. Don't think I'd ever do it. We are planning to go to San Francisco this fall and probably will sleep in it one night. We're sort of excited about it. There is still a little teenager in us.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    And I don't need the backache the next day.

    Pick your neighborhood carefully before parking your van. I'm very serious.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    "We are planning to go to San Francisco this fall and probably will sleep in it one night. We're sort of excited about it. There is still a little teenager in us."

    Marine2,

    Don't forget to bring the all too familiar blue oval pill with you! :)
    Enjoy!
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    We're thinking of doing it in one of the road side rest areas.

    I do have a question for all of you though. In Sept. six in our family, (brother, cousin and wives) are going to take a 19 day trip to Ireland, England and Scotland. Is there a chance the battery will go dead in my van and the wife's car after sitting that long? If so, what's the best thing to do to keep it from happening?
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Hyundai and Kia have merged together. So Hyundai has the Sedona minivan from Kia. The new 2006 Sedona engine is probably from Hyundai.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    There are many unsold cars in dealer lots (especially GM , Ford, Chrysler) much, much older than 19 days and they do start OK then.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I thought they had merged, but didn't want to say anything in case I was wrong.

    I also heard Suzuki merged with Mazda I think?
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Susuki is in bed with GM in some manner/percentage.

    Same with Mazda and Ford.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Hyundai is getting version of Kia Minivan a year after launch of new Sedona....just FYI
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    Well, brand love and arrogance is what made GM what it is today.

    Ill conceived union contracts is what drove GM into pits.

    Honda does not seem to rest on its laurels yet and it seems to retain some will to move around. Toyota is probably more prone to exploiting reputation and loyalty, but their process is just too damn good for that to be a big issue.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I wish they were less protective of their investment in existing components and tooling though. I guess their financial position does not leave them much of a working room.

    Like any business you have to pick and choose what to focus on....should I spend $1 million on HEMI tech and cylinder deactivation? or a new multivalve engine for a Minivan? I think Chrysler is gambling that most minivan buyer are not too technically literate and it's an appliance....it starts, has automatic tranny (who cares how many gears) and rides nice and quiet....oh, and price!

    There are many engineers here in Detroit who would argue that high reving, multivalve engines are not superior to push rods, especially when you factor in high manufacturing cost. Ever notice how Japanese cars post all these high HP ratings...i.e..the Nissan with their 260hp V6s? Yet a str8 6 from BMW for example provides better performance with only 200 hp, and you're not screaming the engine to get it work. Look at GM's small block V8 in the new Vette.....400hp and 28 mpg, and 0-60 mph in 4.5 sec!!!!! The basic design is 50 years old!!!
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    Yet a str8 6 from BMW for example provides better performance with only 200 hp

    It is impressive indeed. I own a 325XiT manual and wife's 330Cic (auto.. oh, the shame) and for 184 and 225 hp, they are fast. But they are not pushrod, if that's what you implied.

    This new Valvetronic is one cool solution.

    But they seem to follow the same design as the better Honda 4bangers. Naturally aspirated, easy to rev. Prior to 330 I had a Prelude, and that thing was quite nice for a FWD.

    it's an appliance

    That is true. Still folks do buy Miele and Bosch, when GE and Kenmore also does the job. Just not as well.
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    Hyundai and Kia have merged together.

    Indeed. I completely missed that fact...

    Kia Motors President Chung Ui-sun, the only son of Hyundai-Kia Automotive Group Chairman Chung Mong-koo

    Don't you love the way they run business. :D
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Like any business you have to pick and choose what to focus on....should I spend $1 million on HEMI tech and cylinder deactivation? or a new multivalve engine for a Minivan?

    Correct. When you only have so much money to work with, you pick what you think the public will be most interested in buying.

    I think Chrysler is gambling that most minivan buyer are not too technically literate and it's an appliance....it starts, has automatic tranny (who cares how many gears) and rides nice and quiet....oh, and price!

    I don't think they believed that at all. They knew they didn't have the money to come out with a new van, so they figured what can we put in our existing van that would make people want to buy a lot more of them. I don't think they felt that putting a high tech engine and transmission, into a vehicle that mostly women drive, was going to give them the sales volume they wanted. They needed something that appealed to both women and men. Thus, here is Stow-n-Go.

    Come to think of it, you are right in a way. They knew a high tech engine and tranny wasn't going to win any women over. Not in a minivan.

    There are many engineers here in Detroit who would argue that high reving, multivalve engines are not superior to push rods, especially when you factor in high manufacturing cost.

    On this I agree.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    As figures seem to keep on showing. Chrysler minivans sold a all time high for the month of May. Not bad for having practically the same old body for years and years.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    The Ridgeline truck is best in its class as well even as a first year model.
    CR July 05 rated it above Tacoma, Frontier, Dakota, and Colorado.

    Same for Honda Pilot in its own class.

    Remarkable!!
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Oh! I forgot to mention CRV, Accord, Civic as also best in their own class.

    The accollades/awards of each from various sources speak for themselves.

    Now that's makes it even more remarkable!!
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    It looks like a nice truck and I like the storage under the bed of the truck. I think the bed is going to be to small for a lot of truck buyers though.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Did you see where Toyota is having a lot of problems with one of their gas/electric cars with frequent stalling? I forgot the model.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    It is the Prius model that everyone is so crazy about!
    www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-06-01-prius_x.htm

    Here is an interesting article on hybrids and their extra cost payback,
    www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-31-hybrid-costs-usat_x.htm
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    with one of their gas/electric cars with frequent stalling?

    Prius.

    Given that a modern cars has tens of thousands of line of software code in it, and Prius probably three time the average, and given the sorry state of the software engineering development practices (to that I could attest), I am sure that this kind of stuff will happen more and more often.

    I am (not) waiting when I have to upload latest software patches to my car flash rom before going to work - as I can do with my digital camera and other doodads.

    Version 3.4.125a(build 2956) - correcting an issue with ABS sensor miscalculations when AC controls are used together with cruise control.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    No surprise about Consumer Reports ratings. The BIG surprise would be to see if they ever admit that Chrysler, Ford, or GM made something nice.
    A bigger surprise is why anyone would pay CR for vehicle purchasing data that can be obtained online from Edmunds at NO COST .
    Consumer Reports is NOT RECOMMENDED for purchase. :sick:
  • daedae Member Posts: 143
    They knew a high tech engine and tranny wasn't going to win any women over. Not in a minivan.

    I am married to a counterexample. She got a heavy foot, though thankfully decent reflexes.

    The question was "can we get it with a V8"?

    At least I got off the hook from buying some Armada or Landcruiser and whatever else all women are driving nowdays. Odyssey was found to be "cute" in Ocean Mist.

    My kids, thankfully, do not have a say yet.

    The purchase power inflluence goes: women -> teenagers -> men in decreasing order. :)
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    The purchase power inflluence goes: women -> teenagers -> men in decreasing order

    Now dae, you have said something I can whole heartedly agree with you on.
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    Folks, a number of posts have been removed because they were off-topic and/or uncivil. That said, it's nice to see that you've gotten the topic back on track.

    MODERATOR

    Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review

  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I don't think they believed that at all. They knew they didn't have the money to come out with a new van, so they figured what can we put in our existing van that would make people want to buy a lot more of them. I don't think they felt that putting a high tech engine and transmission, into a vehicle that mostly women drive, was going to give them the sales volume they wanted. They needed something that appealed to both women and men. Thus, here is Stow-n-Go.

    DCX spent a fortune on retooling the Minivan Chasis for Stow n Go. I question their use of assets though....for example, Chrysler does have a 250hp multi-valve V6 (used on the last FWD 300c). I know it fits in a minivan because Ralph Gilles (lead designer for new RWD 300c) put one in his minivan (his wife made him buy one when their first baby was born). Why not put it in a minivan??? It fits, It's tooled????

    Where I think the big 3 screw up....they do just what they think they have to, to move vehicles. Look at Fords Freestar..."hey! lets just throw in new IP, barely copy Honda's magic seat and toss in a lot of incentives". GM's "hey!! lets just throw in a new IP, throw a big ugly nose on the front and toss in a lot of incentives". My buddy who works for GM, after he saw my new DCX said this to me "ohhh our people have studied Magic Seat and Stow N Go, and most consumers don't care about it". Probably the same people who thought a driver's side sliding door wasn't desired also!!!

    I give DCX credit for trying to push the limits on features.

    The Big 3 have many many assets but they need to take the Japanese approach. Look at Honda....Oddy, MDX, Pilot, Ridgeline.....all the same platform, all the same basic engine/tranny. They dont take a "lesser" engine and toss it in low end models, ohhh they tweak/program the ECU module to produce slightly differing HP ratings.....but they're all the same. The consumer wins, and Honda increases volumes of engines built, hence lowers cost.

    DCX - take the "old" 300c V6 and put it in your Minivans - across the board!!!!! It may cost an extra $500/minivan but how much are all those incentives costing???

    Ohhh If only I ruled the land!
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    Like Dae, I believe that CR should be one of the many sources to help one make an objective decision in buying a vehicle. Many trust their credibility of information as their feedback come from a much larger group(tens of thousands) of people rather from our much smaller Forum crowd.

    All these sources of information should be used to corroborate each other for veracity. If they do like in the Ody's case or any other vehicle for that matter, then it is difficult to deny that statistically.

    As always, let the accollades/awards speak for themselves.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    "The purchase power inflluence goes: women -> teenagers -> men in decreasing order"

    You have learnt the art of not losing your "executive privileges at home" :)
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    I fully agree.

    The "new" GM minivan is just the "same old wolf" dressed up differently. I GM thinks that they can fool a good portion of the minivan buying public. But they are only fooling themselves!

    GM has not even considered the disappearing 3rd row seat because it would involve costly retooling of the old Montana/Silhouette/Venture body.

    Now GM wants to get rid of their unsold vehicle inventory by offerring employee discounts to the general public.

    A VERY SAD, DESPERATE CASE INDEED!
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Like Dae, I believe that CR should be one of the many sources to help one make an objective decision in buying a vehicle. Many trust their credibility of information as their feedback come from a much larger group(tens of thousands) of people rather from our much smaller Forum crowd.

    I think that is true when wanting to know how your vehicle will hold up. But reading what that tester said in CU in his review of DGC, I sure could detect a lot of bias there.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    I hear you.

    But when you hear multiple sources(6+) singing the same tune for a particular vehicle, it is difficult to discount that.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    True, but I haven't read most of his complaints from multiple sources.
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    The purpose of multi-valve design is to increase horsepower for a vehicle platform. This allows small engine packages to remain small for platform considerations, especially when a V6 or V8 power plant would just not fit.

    Multi-valving does have increased cost in machining and manufacturing. It also has a tendency to push the horsepower curve upwards in the rpm range, while low-end torque will usually drop.

    If your not pulling 7000 rpm at Le Mans, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a single valve pushrod engine. In fact, for prime people movers or load haulers they usually realize an advantage in low end torque, depending on the square of the engine, while keeping rpms a little lower. They are less costly to manufacture and maintain.

    Regardless, there may be other considerations for not putting high horse power or "faster" engines in a minivan. This may be viewed by the insurance industry and consumer groups as counter intuitive for a family car. A faster minivan might cause a manufacturer to worry about safety perception problems should people start to kill their families on the way to the kids' soccer game.

    Dusty
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I think that is true when wanting to know how your vehicle will hold up. But reading what that tester said in CU in his review of DGC, I sure could detect a lot of bias there.

    BIAS?? Ohhh Really??? I just looked at latest CR with small pickup trucks. ALL the trucks they tested were brand new designs. For predicted reliability they make little sense. A new Chevy Colorado is rated above avg - totally new design. Same for Honda and Toyota. The Nissan and Dodge are noted as "NEW"??? I find it hard to believe Honda and GM has sold enough of their new trucks to warrant "above avg"?

    I could scour the write up even more but it's too obvious, the bias.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Good example of using the successful 3.5L V6 engine and platform of the Ody for many other vehicles.
    DaimlerChrysler should have offered their 3.8L V6 in all their minivans and as stated, also put the "old" 3.5L V6 from the Chrysler 300C into their minivans.
    GM and Ford are the WORST companies to use an anemic engine.
    GM: The gutless 3.4L V6 used in all FWD GM minivans for years and sadly, it replaced a more powerful 3.8L V6 that was in the original FWD GM minivans. Now GM makes a slight increase to 3.5L which has less power than competitors had for many years. The biggest farce of GM is to call their slightly warmed over FWD Minivans a "Crossover Sport Utility" just by adding a higher nose at the front.
    The Ford 3.0L V6 just doesn't compare for power with the offerings of the competitors. Placing the anemic 2.5L V6 into the Mazda MPV almost killed the MPV before it got off the ground.
  • macakavamacakava Member Posts: 775
    C & D June 2004 Minivan Comparo Quote: The 3.8L DGC won't cut it in this crowd of 5 minivans consisting of Ody, Sienna, Quest, DGC,and Freestar placing in that order.

    The domestic engines are underpowered compared to the Japanese! GM, Ford and Chrysler need to wake up quickly to survive.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Funny, the DodgeGC, maybe a couple of seconds slower than the Honda and Toyota, but it seems like most of the people that test drove those minivans, claim the 3.8 V6 to have plenty of power. As shown in the post I put up in Minivan Shopping.So I doubt many would pass on the Dodge/Chrysler vans because of lack of power.

    Testers also don't seem to find the middle seats in the new Dodge/Chrysler minivans hard to sit in either. That complaint seems to come mainly from Honda and Toyota owners.

    I think there is also plenty to say about Dodge/Chrysler's smooth, quiet ride and good handling.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Since DC has THE MOST POWER in reasonably priced sedans: Chrysler 300C and Dodge Charger.
    I think it is only fair to Honda and Toyota to let them have the most power in one market segment. We would not want DC sued for having a monopoly for having the most powerful vehicle in every type vehicle. :blush:
  • greener1greener1 Member Posts: 37
    they may not have the most power in a minivan engine, but they have the most power in sales share, more than 35 percent of the minivan market and considering how much competition they are up against, i would say that speaks for itself, in fact in month of May only Chrysler had a sales gain, and most of that is from the stow and go seating in the minivans and the 300M sedans, i will bet
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Member Posts: 626
    A faster minivan might cause a manufacturer to worry about safety perception problems should people start to kill their families on the way to the kids' soccer game. "

    They way some people talk around here about their sporty minivans, it makes you wonder.... I hope people are in reality, smarter than that...
  • gonavybeatarmygonavybeatarmy Member Posts: 7
    Having recently purchased a van and test driving the Honda and TnC Limited, the Honda clearly outperformed the TnC in acceleration from stop and passing. However, I found the TnC was more than adequate. After all, it's a van. My other car is a Maxima, so when I want to fast, I jump in that! After comparing everything, and actually preferring the more luxurious and quiet ride in the TnC along with price, that's what we ended up with. If I could have gotten out the door for $4000 less in the Honda, I might have gone with that and been happy too.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    If I could have gotten out the door for $4000 less in the Honda, I might have gone with that and been happy too.

    Exactly.....Price is usually a huge factor, not just 0-60 times, turning radius etc.. I shopped around quite a lot, and actually held off buying until both the new Honda and DCX vans were on the market. Here in Detroit, the attitude with ALL Honda dealers was take it of leave it, no discounts, take what's on the lot etc....it was horrible. The price difference when factoring rebates etc...was very significant. I have no problem paying more if something actually warrants it....I paid full sticker for my car. But a Minivan???? Nahhhh no thanks!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Honda - 3 recalls so far, Dodge - 1

    Check em out, see which ones sound more serious...

    Honda Oddy Recalls

    Campaign Number: 05V132000 Date: 2005-Apr-05


    Component: Electrical System: Fuses And Circuit Breakers

    Defect Summary: ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES, A LOOSE TERMINAL IN THE MAIN FUSE BOX MAY CAUSE THE FUEL PUMP TO LOSE POWER. IF THE FUEL PUMP BECOMES INOPERATIVE, THE ENGINE MAY NOT START.

    Consequence Summary: IF THE FUEL PUMP LOSES POWER WHILE DRIVING THE ENGINE COULD STALL WITHOUT WARNING WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
    Corrective Summary: DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE ENTIRE FUSE BOX. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 13, 2005. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.

    To schedule service online click here


    Campaign Number: 05V039000 Date: 2005-Feb-03


    Component: Steering: Column

    Defect Summary: ON CERTAIN MINIVANS AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES, THE STEERING COLUMN MAY BE INCORRECTLY ASSEMBLED, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A LOSS OF STEERING CONTROL.

    Consequence Summary: LOSS OF STEERING CONTROL CAN CAUSE A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE.

    Corrective Summary: OWNERS WERE NOTIFIED BY TELEPHONE ON JANUARY 25, 2005, AND ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE TO HAVE THEIR VEHICLES TOWED TO THEIR DEALERS AND HAVE THE REPAIRS PERFORMED. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JANUARY 25, 2005.

    To schedule service online click here


    Campaign Number: 04V536000 Date: 2004-Nov-15


    Component: Service Brakes, Air: Antilock: Wheel Speed Sensor

    Defect Summary: ON CERTAIN MINIVANS, THE ANTI-LOCK BRAKE SYSTEM (ABS) USES A SENSOR ON EACH WHEEL TO DETECT WHEEL SPEED. SOME SENSORS ON THE REAR WHEELS WERE INSTALLED INCORRECTLY, WHICH MEANS THE SENSOR MAY REPORT THE WRONG WHEEL SPEED TO THE ABS CONTROL UNIT.

    Consequence Summary: THE DRIVER COULD EXPERIENCE A LOSS OF BRAKE FORCE AND A CRASH COULD OCCUR.

    Corrective Summary: DEALERS WILL INSPECT THE REAR WHEEL SPEED SENSORS. IF AN INCORRECT GAP IS DETECTED, THE SENSOR WILL BE REMOVED AND THE KNUCKLE CHECKED FOR CROSS THREADING DAMAGE. IF DAMAGE IS FOUND, THE KNUCKLE WILL BE REPLACED. IF NO DAMAGE IS FOUND, THE SENSOR WILL BE REINSTALLED CORRECTLY. THE RECALL BEGAN ON NOVEMBER 12, 2004. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009.

    To schedule service online click here

    Dodge Caravan and Grand Caravan Recall


    Campaign Number: 04V047000 Date: 2004-Feb-03


    Component: Seat Belts: Front: Retractor

    Defect Summary: AFTER PERFORMING THE NCAP TEST, IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT ON CERTAIN MINIVANS EQUIPPED WITHOUT THE AVAILABLE “STOW ‘N GO” SEATING OPTION, THE RIGHT FRONT SEAT BELT RETRACTOR ASSEMBLY MAY HAVE BEEN IMPROPERLY ASSEMBLED.

    Consequence Summary: AS A RESULT, THE SEAT BELT MAY NOT PROPERLY RESTRAIN THE OCCUPANT DURING CERTAIN CRASH CONDITIONS, WHICH CAN INCREASE THE RISK OF INJURY.
    Corrective Summary: DEALERS WILL INSPECT THE RETRACTOR ASSEMBLIES AND ANY SEAT BELT ASSEMBLY THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE STAKE WILL BE REPLACED. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN ON FEBRUARY 23, 2004. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT DAIMLERCHRYSLER AT 1-800-853-1403.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Honda - 3 recalls so far, Dodge - 1


    That doesn't surprise me. That's one of the reasons I bought me 2005 Dodge van. Their reputation for quality. I knew I'd have to keep bringing a Honda back for fixes if I bought it. Now we know why Honda has side air bags as standard equipment.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The majority of these recalls amount to nothing. They are a proactive effort on the car makers to nip a POTENTIAL problem in the bud.

    Not just Honda but ALL makes and models.

    Much ado about some remote thing that **could** happen.

    Still, recalls are a good thing I suppose.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Just kidding, but I'm sure most knew that. It shouldn't be uncommon to find these things coming up on a new model. And even some on older models. If a person thinks about what's involved in putting out a car, van or truck, it's almost impossible to expect perfection. Especially with so much electronics involved. Things are bound to go wrong. Just look at the space shuttle and how careful they are to go over every part that goes in it. Still, how many times has a mission been scrubbed because a part malfunctioned right before blast off?

    Many of the parts for these vans are contracted out to other companies. Let a guy have a bad day or is not feeling well, he could easily put a part together and send it out to the auto manufacturing company to be installed and the manufacture not know it's defective until months or years later. Still it's the auto manufacture that gets the blame for fallen quality. The thing I would consider most, is how the auto company takes care of the problem. I think Honda does pretty well in doing that.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    The majority of these recalls amount to nothing. They are a proactive effort on the car makers to nip a POTENTIAL problem in the bud.

    Not just Honda but ALL makes and models.

    Much ado about some remote thing that **could** happen.

    Still, recalls are a good thing I suppose.

    LOLOLOLOL.....only a salesman would make a statement like "recalls are a good thing I suppose" LOLOLOLOL good thing for who? The person who has to take their new car in to have it repaired? Good for the salesperson - maybe he'll have another shot at selling another car?

    All this smugness coming from many on here about not having to take their Hondas into the dealership etc.... It's great to knock some hot air out of you folks!

    Isn't the goal to not have recalls period?
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    All this smugness coming from many on here about not having to take their Hondas into the dealership etc.... It's great to knock some hot air out of you folks!


    Got to admit, there is some satisfaction to that. But I still stand by my last post.

    I am glad to see in over a year the 2005 DGC has been out, there have been very few complaints about them. Mine has been perfect since I bought it back in Dec.
  • davidsundavidsun Member Posts: 3
    Hello,

    I just bought a new Touring three weeks ago, and I like it very much.

    but yesterday I checked the bottom of the car, I found some parts has rust on them.
    in fact they are very rusted and looks almost like yellow.

    I am thinking about going back to the dealer to ask them about this. any ideas. should I ask to change a car, or get the parts changed.

    I was so disappointed, and I compared my 8 years Honda accord, the same part, after I clean the dust and oil, they are shinning like new.
  • davidsundavidsun Member Posts: 3
    it is a brand new 2005 Touring. with 180 miles on it.
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