Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

tomtomtom · July 2001

In case you didn't read my post #354...I am curious too,hotspur...haven't you ever driven the 2001 DC vans? Or you are afraid we would take a picture of you in one :-) I just want your honest answer if you have driven one. What do you truely think of the van regardless of the history or the MSRP?

masshoosier · July 2001

If the ody's interior is boring and plain than what is the dodge's.....exciting and vibrant? Puhleeasse, gimme a break, its plastic my man, both of them, I mean....plastic. How emotional can you get about it? You want leather to go with your plastic, fine, then spend the bucks to get it. If you have a Honda, take it to the aftermarket guy or wait for the 2002 EXL. It's only an extra days hassle for a decade of comfort.

The one size fits all is not attractive to many customers? Once again, what is the wait time for an Odyssey these days? Oh thats right, they are just keeping supply low for some sort of conspiracy thingy.

Especially not to those on a tight budget?
Yeah, all these Ody owners just have tons of cash to throw around. Wrong, the LX is a great buy for a someone who's worried about the bottom line but still looking for a few comforts. If thats still too much than as I said before, the MPV offers more than a short-base Caravan for the same price and Kia is knocking at the door with a 10 year warranty.

carleton1 · July 2001

Interesting to read the apologies for buying the "Magic Seat" minivan. As I have written many times, we would have purchased a Granite Green Odyssey LX-C and in fact ordered one on March 16, 1999. The 5 month waiting time was not possible and after looking again at the Grand Caravan, we both felt the features of the GC SE AND the nice price we paid outweighed the benefit of waiting 5 months.
So far our 99 GC SE has provided us with exceptional comfort in 30,588 miles while getting an overall average of 23.6 MPG and having ZERO problems. We do NOT regret our purchase.
I believe we would have been just as happy with the Odyssey we had ordered...and would have purchased if the waiting time had been more reasonable. Each van has unique advantages.

scanner · July 2001

for proving my point several times over.

---

Cincy_ody_mike,

What was that you were saying about Odyssey owners being a bunch of mindless drones? ;-)

4aodge · July 2001

dmathews3, a "firebomb" van? I think not. It is so very convienent for you Ody owners to take advantage of the crash test news and use to it slander the image of a perfectly safe family vehicle. You all act as if under no circumstances would an all-mighty Honda Odyssey develop a minor fuel leak, AFTER a crash at 40mph into a concrete wall. A fuel leak could develop in any automobile depending on the severity of the crash and many other incalculable variables. I'm sorry your experience with Chrysler breaks hasn't been a good one, but I have experienced just the opposite in both of my DC minivans.

You think deep down I know my 00 T&C will "BREAK"? It's insulting that Ody owners, many of which have under 30k miles (at most) on their vans, are telling me I think my DC van is going to "BREAK." We have driven over 110k trouble-free miles with both our 98 GC SE and 00 T&C LX combined. Throughout that time period of 110k miles, these vehicles have hauled our family of 6 through desserts, over moutains, and through city traffic without ANY trouble. Can any Honda Ody owner here (99-01 model years) say the same? I didn't think so.

Now back to the Ody dash and interior. As I've said before, sit in a 01 Ody EX and then a 01 DGC ES and tell me which you find more attractive. It won't be that hard, really. Hutspur, stop quoting these magazines and online publications and make up your own mind about the interior of these two cars. You have still not answered the question, "have you ever driven or riden in a 01-02 DC minivan?" You boast about how many reviewers have given praise to the Ody without keeping in mind I could do just the same for DC minivans.

Yes, Chrysler does offer more options, models, and packages in their minivan line-up. Do not deny that this is more benefitial to the consumer than a car like the Ody, with only two models and one engine size to choose from. For someone that is on a tight budget and doesn't do much hauling or towing, a 4cyl Caravan/Grand Caravan SE will do the job just fine and can be bought at an excellent price (much lower than the Odys).

Masshoosier, while both vans indeed do use plastics in their interiors...some plastics are obviously better than others. I've sat and riden inside an Ody before and find do find the dash boaring and unappealing...especially compared to my 00 T&C's. How emotional can you get? It all depends, but I certainly wouldn't expect to see someone getting emotional over a dash like the Ody's.

While the Ody LX is nicely priced and has many usefull standard features, so does a Chrysler Voyager or Caravan/Grand Caravan SE. In fact, these vans might even come with more features than the Ody LX, despite them being so low on the model-chain. Yes, you can get a Ody LX for a nice price, but you could get many DC vans (Voyager, DC SE) for a much lower price without sacrificing any major features.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

odd1 · July 2001

You drove thru desserts? What kind? Baked Alaska. Maybe a DQ Blizzard?

Why do people place such importance on leather? Did we really suffer that bad on vinyl as kids. Really now, aren't the kids just going to tear it up too?

Personally, I want all vinyl, rubber, and plastic so I can just hose the damn thing out. That would be an outstanding selling point for many of us with kids. Forget magic seats, nine cup holders, ten
speakers, video entertainment centers, and triple zone a/c give me the ability to hose out the van.

BTW I found the Dodge interior tacky too. No, I did not find it to be a superior driving vehicle. With Caravan's history for reliability and many friends tranny woes and my needs the Odyssey was the better choice for my situation.

hotspur · July 2001

The vinyl interiors on my BMW 2002 and 530i looked as good at 90,000 miles as when new. A Mercedes-Benz diesel with MB-Tex interior (that's vinyl) will look good as new at 300,000 miles. And no cows have to be killed to install it.

Strange how we've come to view leather as "luxurious." On the M-B 560SEC in the late 1980s, leather was standard and cloth was an option for those that wanted luxury. I guess leather appeals to those who like plastic made-to-look- (badly, at that) like wood. They must feel more important sitting on leather "seating surfaces."

masshoosier · July 2001

a Caravan? You can't fit nothing in a caravan compared to the Ody. The Grand Caravan perhaps. Don't say a Caravan compares cause it doesn't, They are way too small. Have three kids first then talk to us about the sacrifices between the low model caravan and the Odyssey. A whole different ballgame.

DTKWOK · July 2001

Well, to all you DC van owners, congratulations on getting a van with an exciting interior. I suppose to each their own, but even something as exciting as say a BMW, MB E-class, or even a Honda Insight's interior will eventually wear out in a couple of years (if not sooner). Remember that commercial where the guy is standing outside in the rain admiring {intensly} his Kia (or Hyundai)? C'mon how long that will last for any car (save an exotic one)? I suppose us "plain Ody folks" look for excitement somewhere else in life.

j/k

4aodge · July 2001

Hotspur keeps boasting about how many possitive reviews the Ody has been given over the last few years as if the same cannot be said for DC minivans. In fact, this is not true and I think in this post I will successfully prove my point.

EDMUNDS.com

And while the Honda Odyssey comes closer than the Montana, the Honda still feels a bit more ungainly and heavy than the seemingly more nimble Chrysler van.

One driver summed up the T&C's impressive road manners thusly: "Unlike the Honda and Ford vans, which are big and feel it, the Town & Country is big but doesn't feel it."

Despite the fact the Town & Country wasn't the quickest van in this test, the engine and transmission still got high praise among the drivers.

With 215 horsepower and 245 foot-pounds of torque, he said the engine "moves this vehicle with authority."

Despite the few gripes, Chirico really enjoyed his time in the minivan. He spent the better part of one month driving all over Southern California in a Dodge Grand Caravan and "loved it." Wow, who woulda thought?

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/45220/page003.html CHRYSLERS RESPONSE TO INTRO

"The Grand Caravan's engine and transmission seem to be a much better match for each other than the Odyssey's. Acceleration from a stop was much quicker, therefore making it easier to enter a freeway."

Karl feels the 3.8-liter V6 in our long-term vehicle provides abundant low-end torque, giving the Grand Caravan an almost nimble feel during around-town cruising. The copious power delivery is backed up by a responsive, communicative steering system that further elevates the Dodge to "almost fun-to-drive" status. Rather amazing for a minivan.

During his commute, Brent found time to evaluate the interior. The amount of feature content impressed him, specifically the leather seating, automatic headlights, power doors/mirrors/locks, automatic climate control, seat heaters and moveable center console. The console's flip-out cell phone holder earned a thumbs up, as it held his Nokia 6160 perfectly. And while this van can't be ordered with a navigation system, it does have a compass mounted in the rearview mirror, a feature Brent used on a couple of occasions. He also really liked the audio controls mounted on the steering wheel, saying that they are perfectly placed on the back of the wheel and are easy to use.

4ADODGE.com

In an announcement made at the New York International Auto Show, Dodge Caravan was awarded the coveted Automobile Magazine Readers' Choice All-Star for Best Minivan.

The 2001 models of the Dodge Dakota, Caravan, and Stratus Coupe and Sedan have all been rated as Consumers Digest "Best Buys".

The 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan took home top honors as the best minivan in the market for the second year running, according to AAA rankings.

MSN CARPOINT.com

DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group was the only company with domestic brands to tally four winners in TQI segments. These were the Chrysler PT Cruiser, LHS and Town & Country and the Dodge Dakota.

WOMANMOTORIST.com

Hands down, this 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan has everything you want in a passenger vehicle, truck and minivan. I tried to find something to complain about. I just couldn't.

This new Grand Caravan has a lot to offer a busy mom or dad who wants a different level of comfort and convenience to haul your busy family to the ice rink or swimming pool.

Fifteen Years After It Created A New Market, The Chrysler Minivan Is Still The Leader And Trend Setter. Now They Add The Selectable Autostick Transmission.

Many trendy vehicles will come and go, but I predict when flash and fashion fade, there will be the Dodge Caravan, rolling along in undiminished numbers.

MOTORTREND.com

Some of the basic ingredients of this eminently successful offering have not been changed, things like its size, seat-height, and front-drive configuration. But the upcoming Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country, and Chrysler (nZ<caron>e Plymouth) Voyager, and models do benefit from quieter-ride suspension pieces, bigger brakes, a trio of more potent V-6 engines, a powered rear liftgate, dual powered sliding doors, improved front airbags and new side-impact bags, power-adjustable pedals, fresh exterior sheetmetal, and an even more clever interior design.

CARS.com

The 2001 lineup includes the Chrysler (formerly Plymouth) Voyager, Dodge Caravan and Chrysler Town & Country, a trio that has given DaimlerChrysler mini-van dominance with sales of 600,000 plus, or about 40 percent of the 1.5 million market annually.

It would appear as though the Ody isn't the only minivan out there winning awards and praises from various organizations. Dispite all of the hype over the Ody, Chrysler's minivans are still the only ones on the market that have been awarded MOTORTREND's CAR OF THE YEAR (1996). That's very impressive when you consider the other cars over the year that have been given that honored award.

As a friend put it best, "you can't stay on top forever, at least in the eyes of the critics." I think a major reason why so much hype as been given to the Ody since it was redesigned is that DC has simply done so well in terms of customer loyalty and minivan sales. Of course critics are going to be eager to give the crown of "the best minivan" to a new contender after a single product has been given that title 16 years in a row.

It allways amusses me that despite all of the awards Honda has been given for the Ody, it's sales are eclipsed by those of the DC minivans and I think will continue to be well into the future. After all, a company just doesn't sell 9 million minivans over a period of a decade and a half for no good reason.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

00 T&C LX FWD

dmathews3 · July 2001

It is so very convienent for you Ody owners to take advantage of the crash test news and use to it slander the image of a perfectly safe family vehicle.
Just as convienent as you DC owners to slander the Odyssey with YOUR byious opinions on your vans. When I stop seeing the bull from you dc owners you will stop seeing my posts that hurt your tender feelings. As far as dashes etc. go have you ever looked at the Rolls. Not the best looking car on the road by a long shot but long standing quality, same as Honda products. Even Chysler admits that their quality has been lacking on the old vans, and most of their other products.

hotspur · July 2001

but Car and Driver, Motor Trend, the Automobile Magazine editors (not an owners popularity contest), Money Magazine, Edmunds, Consumer Reports, etc., etc., all still picked the Ody number one.

And it doesn't leak fuel in crash tests. And it sells without outrageous and secret incentives. And there are none on dealer lots--unlike DC minis, which spill over into neighboring lots.

cincy_ody_mike · July 2001

Frankly, I've been a bit surprised at the nasty tone this board has taken over the last few days. It seems that some of our group enjoy getting each other riled up more than exchanging meaningful information. Perhaps I'm guilty a bit as well when I ended my recent post about picking the Odyssey with a little shot at scanner, and if that is the case, then I apologize. However, the polarizing of positions has led to exaggerations of the virtues / weaknesses of our respective vans and offers little or no value to the people who read these boards looking for help making their decisions.

When you come right down to it, there are plenty of good reasons to by any of the Odyssey, DC, Toyota, Ford, Mazda, Nissan, and GM vans. This is a fact mentioned in the Edmunds article that people here choose to forget.

The fact that people here seem to get overly emotional about their van and/or get off trying to provoke these emotions says some pretty sad things about your life. Remember, these are JUST VANS!!! It's time for some people to get some perspective here. Maybe we can get back to an intelligent exchange of information. Sorry for the sermon, but I felt it needed to be said.

caviller · July 2001

"You all act as if under no circumstances would an all-mighty Honda Odyssey..."

Please spare us the inaccurate generalizations. As part of "all" Honda Odyssey owners, I challenge you to find a post where I've negatively hyped the DC van's offset test results. Actually, I've posted a few times that I think the fuel leak issue is overblown, and that overall the 2001 DC vans are a reasonable choice for safety. As for the Odyssey LX, please find me a DC minivan at a comparable street price (use carsdirect.com if necessary) that does not sacrifice an engine with equal or more power/torque, similar passenger/cargo area and traction control. They should also be otherwise similarly equipped when selecting factory/dealer options. You might also re-read my post to find that I was actually agreeing with your original comments. Your comment on sales is interesting. Ford Escorts were the best sellers for many years in the 80s. There was at least one good reason for that. They were cheap.

cincy_ody_mike:

Such is the nature of any forum with "vs" in the title. It's also interesting to note that Odyssey is the subject of most "vs" forums for minivans. For example, for many buyers who prefer a 'domestic' vehicle, you rarely see "Windstar vs. Grand Caravan" or "T&C vs. GM trio minivan" forums. It's also interesting to note the lower activity and more peaceful nature of the "Odyssey vs" forums that do not involve DC vans. Despite the posts that take factual information too personally, there is a good bit of comparative information to be found on these forums. Plus, the debates are usually an interesting diversion.

hotspur · July 2001

is that there is no mention whatsoever of DC minivans in the Odyssey threads. But in every DC thread (NOT the comparison threads), there are daily postings by a few people knocking the Ody at every opportunity. Comments about "refridgirators," "Ody for sheetrock, DC for people," "why does everybody I know who has an Accord have problems," etc.

Interesting that Ody owners don't give a hoot about DC minivans, but DC owners seem obsessed with Odys.

odd1 · July 2001

I receive many compliments on the "leather" from passengers in our '97 BMW. Lots of surprised faces when I tell them its vinyl.

As for DC owners obsessed with Odyssey. I'd say there is just a few(but they are on all the boards) the rest just tell their experiences and why the DC was the choice for them. The obsessed one are where the fun comes in. I love the logic used to defend the DC. The why people hate GM board has the same kind of posters.

I like people saying everyone they know with Accords have tranny problems but never noting that there is a board devoted to DC tranny problems, or never acknowledging the article the host posted where the DC manufacturer admit to poor past quality, nor do they have any counter argument to the JD Powers survey of problems over a 3-4 year length of time. They also did not read the IIHS rating very well. Even without the fuel leak it rated marginal overall, unless you have side impact air bags for the head which brings it up to acceptable. It all keeps me laughing. Except, when I see someone's kids in a DC.

I do have to give them that we really won't know Odyssey's reliability for three or four more years but with the DC's record to now it is a chance I'm willing to take. In the mean time I'll feel better about the safety chances for my family.

4aodge · July 2001

Cavallier, I am sorry for making such generalized and innacurate acusations and will refrain from doing so in the future. I do in fact know that there are many Ody owners out there like yourself who are more open minded when it comes to discussing opinions in forms like "Honda Oddyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans".

As for finding a DC minivan that could compare to a Honda Ody LX with similar features and price, I would point out either a Grand Caravan SE or a Grand Caravan Sport. While the MSRP of the GC Sport in particular are higher than that of the Ody LX, because Chrysler dealerships aren't in the business of "price-gouging" (becuause they think people will pay anything just to get into an Ody) it is very possible to negotiate a deal on one of these vans and walk away paying even less than you probably would on an Ody LX, without sacrificing many important features.

Hotspur, don't flatter yourself about how you think Ody owners don't "give a hoot" about Chrysler minivans while DC owners are "obsessed" with the Ody. You think I'm obsessed with the Ody? If I am "obssesed" with the Ody because I have been trying to show why I think the DC minivan is a superior product for the last year and half, then couldn't someone say your "obssessed" with DC minivans for sticking up for the Ody? Also, look again in many of the other DC minivan threads in the "VAN" forum and see how many are having the same type of conversation we have been having here for quite some time now. You won't find manny, especially in the "Chrysler Town and Country LX/LXi/Limited" and "MY2001 Dodge Grand Caravan EX" threads. Perhaps another reason why DC van owners are so quick to defend their cars is because people like you go around spreading trash about how if you buy a DC minivan you are almost sure to have a transmission failure or other serious problem. This obviously is not true, just look at owners like rbacsafra (00 DGC Sport, 30k miles, NO PROBLEMS), Carelton (00 GGC SE, 30k miles, NO PROBLEMS), and myself (00 T&C LX, 25k miles, NO PROBLEMS). It is insulting to have people who have only put 15-30k miles (MAX) on their vans tell people like us that we are bound to have tranny problems, when we haven't and probably won't. We drove 70k miles in our 98 GC SE and didn't have any problems, can any Ody owner here say the same?

I think one of the reasons why I've been so passionate about defending these vans is simply because I see the Ody as the new kid on the block that everyone is obsessed with and as a result, people look over its shor commings and faults. DC minivans have been around for a long time and have revolutionized the entire car industry (yes, I will even say that). You don't sell 9 million vans just because they are affordable and mass produced as you would like people to think.

Take me for example, I'm a 16 year old teenager and I'm here defending a MINIVAN. Yes, a MINIVAN. Perhaps hotspur had a good point when he tried to point out how passionate DC minivan owners are about defending their rides. There obviously is something special about DC minivans that no other van on the market has, even the Ody. Why else would they have sold 9 million vans in a little more than a decade, have some people who have had numerous problems with their vans come back to buy yet another one (when there is an alternative like the Ody out there), and have a 16 year old kid online defending a car that is made out to be boaring and femanine by mainstream society?

I'll say it again, there is something special about these vans, despite the fact that they are "just vans". Maybe hotspur should jump in his perfect Ody and make his way down to the Chrysler dealership and test drive a 01 T&C...

-Adam (16/M/CA)

dmathews3 · July 2001

Hey hotspur, would you watch your choice of words. I quote you "unlike DC minis, which spill over into neighboring lots." "Spill over" Gee, you want to p.o. the dc people. That is a "HOT" subject with them. Pun intended.

4aodge · July 2001

In all fairness, I will admit that DC minivan reliability has been bellow average for most of the production years since Chrysler introduced the minivan back in the 80s. I find that many of the problems occuring in the early years of the 96-00 model vans were either transmission or electrical system related. I've heard some friends and others online complain about "phantom windshield wipers" and power windows that sometimes won't go up or come down. Although, we never had any of these problems on our 98 van I know a friend with a 98 T&C LXi that have had the power window problem.

I belong to a club on yahoo.com called "DC Minivan Club" and there are about 160 memebers in the club. Many of the people there have no reported any serious problems with their vans (some of which have 1980s model DC minivans and love them). I find that if you compare the ammount complaints to the ammount of minivans DC has sold, the reliability situation doesn't seem as bad as some might think. Especially in the 00 and 01 model years.

On my street there are four other families who have DC minivans and only one of those four families has had problems with their van. This particular family has a 96 GC ES and told me they have had some oil leaks over the last few years but that was it. Another family on my street has two rescent Caravans. One is a 99 short wheel base SE model and the other is a 00 Grand Caravan SE. Neither have complained about any problems.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

4aodge · July 2001

Hotspur, someday Honda might start to produce their Ody in the same numbers as DC has been producting their minivans for the last decade and a half. When that happens there will be just as many Ody's out on the Honda lot as their are DC vans in Dodge and Chrysler dealership lots. Do you know the number of DC minivans made every year compared to Honda? I think if Honda made as many vans as DC does, the demand would of course go down significantly but more people would buy them because they could walk away with an Ody EX at a very competative price (without paying thousands more than MSRP). This would end the "artificial demand" for the Ody (don't know if Honda did this on purpose or if it's just the way things are, but I wouldn't be suprised if they were behind it) and the "price-gouging" I've heard so much about. Although, this might dissapoint some Ody owners because they could no longer say they have a van that they think everyone is trying to get. No pun intended.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

caviller · July 2001

As far as I can tell, the SE only has the smaller 3.3L engine and not the 3.8L engine you touted in the original post as having more torque than Odyssey's engine. It also does not have traction control. I consider both to be "sacrificing any major features" (your word was *any* in the earlier post). According to 4adodge.com, the Sport doesn't have those either, but it otherwise more comparable to the LX. On the Sport I would add the quad captain's chairs with 3rd row bench, the center console and the side airbags (to get the "Acceptable" IIHS rating). The carsdirect.com price with rebate is $23,565. Cardirect.com shows the Odyssey LX at $24,640. Obviously, depending on where you live, either van may be more or less expensive, but Carsdirect does provide a guaranteed quote.

The EX does have traction control and the 3.8L engine. Carsdirect has it for $25,837, or about $1000 more than Odyssey LX. Granted it has extras like a power slider, power hatch, but those were things I didn't want anyway.

No doubt Dodge vans are far more flexible, but my point remains that for the features I wanted (read my posts again), a Grand Caravan would have either sacrificed features I have mentioned, or cost more money. Again, I may not be the typical buyer, but it does show that Honda's one-size-fits-all (actually 2 sizes) does work for some people. Apparently a lot since they sell all they can make at MSRP.

tomtomtom · July 2001

Personally, I really don't care they are leather, vinyl or leatherett (BMW's version of vinyl). Am I being charged for the price for all leather on my van instead of part leather/ part vinyl? Probably so. Do I really like it, no not really, they are hot in summer and cold in winter. Is it comfortable to seat on during a long trip? Mine are. And I have sat in some poorly designed leather seats, it would just make you slide all over the place when making a turn (My friend's Maxima). But because of the baby, I just want something that would not absorb liquid like cloth. By the way, pet fur is another bad thing for cloth seats. I could have bought a Ody and the leather seats put in after market like dmathews3 suggested but I needed to wait at least 3 months for the van and that's not acceptable at that point. Also, PERSONALLY I do prefer the styling of the DC van over the Ody and I do feel the third row bench are more comfortable to seat on even with 3 people than the magic seat. The bench seat from DC sure is heavy and I do not recommend anybody should take it in/out by himself/herself. Since I only plan to take it out no more than 2 or 3 times a year. I would rather let my 3rd bench passengers enjoy the ride the rest of the year with the entertainment system that provides high quality sound. Do I worry about the reliability or safety? Yes, I do and that's why I have purchased extra warranty and I would do the same if I bought a Ody because of the lack of experience of Honda making minivan. As for safety, I do think DC should fix the leaking problem but I don't worry about it too much. Since there are so many DC vans out there, there would be a good chance to crash into one and both vehicles will be on fire anyway : -)

The things being said in this forum is getting boring (the personal attack is still very interesting though). Basically, we just keep telling each other the same thing over and over. Do we actually think we would change each other mind by posting a few personal attack posts? or quoting some articles from the internet or magazines? Didn't you think we read all that and test drove as many times as the dealers allow before buying what we bought? Nobody in here will go out and sell their minivans just because he/she read our posts. So why are we doing this? Just to prove he/she made a better decision than the others? I think we all have better things to do than coming up names for each other's van or digging out things from internet or magazines. Otherwise, what's next? The house we are living in? I do like the square outlook of my house than the rounded house across the street and I do have a leather sofa and a sofa bed that can save a lot of space in the guest room. My garage doors are automatic...

4aodge · July 2001

Good points cavillier. I should have said you could get a Caravan/Grand Caravan SE without sacrificing many of the features of the Ody LX, instead of saying "any features." The Grand Caravan SE can come pretty well equiped depending on which packages and options i'ts given. However, it still is only available with the 3.3L V6, which in my opinion is more than enough power. I say that because my 00 T&C has the older 3.3L V6 with the 158hp that really moves the van well, suprisingly so. I think what saves the day in the case of the 3.3L offered in the 96-00 DC minivan model years is the 203lbs of torque the engine produces. Anyway, although you would be sacrificing some of the features you would have in an Ody LX by going with a Grand Caravan SE, you would still gain some. However, they just wouldn't be as significant as a third-row "magic" bench seat to someone who really values it's use.

-Adam
(16/M/CA)

4aodge · July 2001

According to 4adodge.com, the Grand Caravan SE is a rather spartan vehicle in-terms of equipment and options that are available. It's an ideal van for someone who is on a tight budget and isn't looking for anything fancy. I'm sure you could do some real good negotiating on this one and get it well bellow the sticker price.

Here are a list of the standard features (4adodge.com)

Power
3.3-liter V6 (4-speed automatic)

Interior
Air conditioning
Intermediate bench with rear three-passenger bench
AM/FM stereo radio with cassette player and 4 speakers
Tachometer
Maximum cargo volume 163.5 cu. ft.

Exterior
119.3" wheelbase
Tinted glass
15" steel wheels with 215/70R15 BSW All-Season tires and Kinetic wheel covers

Safety
Optional supplemental side air bags for driver and front passenger
Standard 4-wheel anti-lock brakes
User-ready child seat lower and top tether anchors for LATCH compatible aftermarket child seats
Brake-park interlock
Seat belt cluster lamp telltale stays on until driver buckles up
Child-protection sliding door locks

I think a better comparison to the Ody LX would be a GC Sport and not the EX. These two not only compare well interms of price but also the standard features. From what I can tell, the Grand Caravan Sport also seems to be the most customizable and flexable model in the entire DC minivan lineup.

-Adam
(16/M/CA)

hotspur · July 2001

First off, I admire your interest in cars in general and the DC minivans in particular. No one can mind someone passionately defending either his car or one he admires greatly. Where we run into problems is when someone relentlessly attacks another's car--with no justification or facts to support it and in threads where the vehicle he is attacking is not even the subject under discussion--and when he does it on a daily basis for years.

Do me a favor and go to the thread titled "Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler minivan problems." Look at postings 626, 628, 630, 633, 684, 686, 689, and 707. Remember that this thread has nothing to do with Honda--Odysseys or Accords. Try to explain to me why the person who made these postings is so relentless in his attacks on Honda. Would you be upset if you were an Odyssey or Accord owner and read this stuff? This is what I mean by an "obsession." This person is not defending anything. He's upset at the number of problems being posted by people who happen to own his brand of minivan, and as a result feels some need to attack Honda. He's been doing this for two years now, and no one seems willing to stop him.

Please tell us all what you think after reading over these postings. Would you be upset if someone, with no provocation whatsoever, made similar postings about DC minivans in an Odyssey or Sienna thread? Do you see any reason for him to make nasty postings like these in a DC minivan thread? Do you think they have any relevance in a thread titled "Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler minivan problems?"

Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing from you in a later posting.

hayneldan · July 2001

Please re read the IIHS tests and check all the photos. The van was crashed 52 times (50 by DC and twice by IIHS) before the leaking was found on the 52nd test. Yes I agree that a possible leak in the center of the fuel tank after a 40 mile per hour collision could possibly cause a fire, but how many accident scenes have you seen where there was no fuel spilled? My son was involved in an accident with a VW Jetta that blew a stop sign and rammed the front of his car. Minutes after the crash after everyone was out of the cars the Jetta burst into flames and burned up! The verdict, the driver neglected to turn off the ignition and the electric fuel pump kept merrily pumping fuel onto the hot engine. Are all Jettas firetraps? NO! are all 2001 Caravans/T&C's firetraps NO! REREAD the test results!

dmathews3 · July 2001

Maybe the guy who wrote all the stuff should go to the MY2001+ Chrysler Voyager/Dodge Caravan site and read this post. 1248 Torque converter by orahovats. He is a DC van owner who isn't to happy with his and I don't blame him.

4aodge · July 2001

Well, I won't say anything negative about carelton's many posts over the last few months (years???) . But I do understand where you are comming from, hotspur. Carelton 1 really seems to like his minivan just as you and I do so I can't and won't knock him for that. I don't think I was even posting messages here when many of you guys first started so in all fairness, I don't even know the full story.

However, I agree with cincy_ody_mike when he says that the last few days in this thread have been immature and unfair, at best. So... instead of being part of the problem, I'd like to try to be part of the solution. Therefore I'll start changing the content of the messages that I post here at edmunds.com. I think it would be the best for everyone here in the van's forum at edmund's town hall.

As for the reliability of DC minivans, I never have experienced any of the problems some others here on the forums talk about. A 2001 DGC ES owner named orahovats is a perfect example of a new DC minivan owner that is having problems, but I cannot relate to them simply because I'v never experience any problems with either of my two DC minivans. I think what Carelton and others with DC minivans in this thread have tried to do is prove to Honda owners that not ALL DC minivans have terrible reliablity problems. Also, we have tried to prove that they are NOT "firebombs" waiting to explode at any minute with a mother and her kinds in the car.

I think DC reliability has improved over the last few years with all new Chrysler products, especially with the new German influence of the former DaimlerBenz. The article that Steve posted about Chrysler trying to improve their image through improving the reliability of their new cars says it all. In addition, you must also admit that the 99 model year was not exactly the best for Honda in terms of reliability with Honda. Just as the 2001 model year isn't going to be the best year for DC's new minivans because it's the first year they are being producted. Frankly, I don't think I would have bought a 01 DC minivan just for that reason. I think it's best to wait until the second production year just to make sure most of the bugs have been worked out.

Also, I never did understand why people in Carelton's area are having so much trouble with their Accord transmissions. Many of the people I know who have Accords love them and are very happy with reliability. In fact, I'd bet excellent reliability was one of the main reasons they bought the car in the first place! Rather interesting....

Anyway, I hope to see more possitive posts in the future. I know I'll try to do my part not to re-ignite a new minivan war, hehehe. By the way, what kind of Ody do you have hotspur? Is it an LX or EX model? What model year is it? And what color did you choose? I find alot of the Ody's around here (Bay Area,CA) are that grayish/purple color.

-Adam (16/M/CA)
00 T&C LX FWD, Champaigne

hotspur · July 2001

My Ody (actually, it's my wife's) is a 2000 EX with navigation system in Canyon Stone Silver, which is the slightly-mauve-tinted silver you mention above. So far it's worked like a charm. If you check the details in the most recent Consumer Reports reliability reports (April 2001), the two problem areas noted for the 1999 Ody are hardware and electrical. I suspect both are a result of first-year problems with the power sliding doors. Noting recent recalls, I'd say Honda isn't the only manufacturer having this kind of problem with power sliders in the first year.

I'm delighted when someone is happy with his or her vehicle. But I don't understand when someone spends two years knocking someone else's vehicle without provocation, which is what I hope you saw in the Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler minivan problems thread I asked you to look at. That's precisely the kind of stuff that causes the unpleasantness you've seen here the past few days. I went back and read every posting since #500 in that thread, and there was absolutely nothing that should have caused the negative outbursts I asked you to read from 626 through 707.

Enjoy your ride, Adam. This is our first minivan, and we couldn't be more pleased with the versatility a minivan has offered us.

carleton1 · July 2001

There are many anti-Chrysler posts in the Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler minivan forum...and many had mentioned the wonderful reliability of Honda. FYI, post #626 said "Go Read in Odyssey Forum".
There have been many bashings of DC products in Odyssey forums but apparently Odyssey owners think it is funny to bash Chrysler but then cry to Edmund's when anyone does the same about Honda.
Question: Is hotspur really the reincarnation of our old friend capecodder?

4aodge · July 2001

To be honest, I've never heard the sound system in the 99-01 Honda Odyessey. The two times I've ridden in my cousin's 99 LX we were so busy talking that I didn't pay attention to the sound or radio. I've only heard what others have said. Some say the system is good but most seem to say its average to "weak". These are simply observations, most of them taken from the thread Carelton talks about in the last post and the minivan comparison test here at edmunds.com. What do the Ody owners here think about the system in their vans?

I know the sound system of a car really doesn't make or break a vehicle in terms of its value and worth, but I was very excited about getting our new T&C for that reason. The standard 4-speaker sound system in our 98 Grand Caravan SE was ok and delivered decent sound quality, but it hardly had any power. Therefore, I was very excited about getting the new T&C with the 200 watt Infinity system. Also, take into account that I am a teenager and love loud music, so the T&C is the perfect van for me, hahaha. One thing I now appreciate about the sound systems DC offers is that they have both CD and tape decks built right into the head unit. I've noticed alot of other American manufacturers (GM for example) do not offer both.

The sound with the Infinity sound system is simply great. You really don't get the full effect of the range and power of the system unless you have a CD playing. It's very hard to get distortion with the 10 speaker Infinity system and the sound comes from everywhere. The only thing I would like would be the in-dash 4 disk cd changer offered in the new 2001 DC minivans because I do alot of CD swapping when I drive. Otherwise, I'm very happy with the sound in our van.

If the sound system in the Ody is anything like the standard system in my best friend's 2000 Honda Accord Coupe EX, I cannot understand why anyone would complain. The Accord Coupe has a 6 speaker sound system with tweeters up on the dash which really help deliver great sound.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

4aodge · July 2001

I totally understand what hotspur is saying about enjoying the versatility of a minivan. I think I'm the only teenager I know who is actually excited to drive a minivan. I only feel comfortable saying this around fellow van owners, but I like vans more than I do most SUVs. I also like being different in the way that I'm not driving around in my Ford Explorer trying to be cool with my hand out the window, my seat-back put down to the floor, and rap music blasting.

Minivans seem to drive and ride smoother and have better handling characteristics. They aren't too high but at the same time they offer great road visability. Vans also have better cargo/people flexibility than SUVS. Especially the DC minivans with the 50/50 rear bench seat and Ody with the third row fold-away seat.

Also, I think gas mileadge is significantly better in most vans out there when compared to their SUV counterparts. I would be willing to bet that the Ody gets better gas mileadge on average than most DC vans because of the highly efficient VTEC engine they use. In additon, the DC van seem to be heavier because of reinforced doors and sound obsorbing material.

We were rather dissapointed with the mileadge on our current van. On average the trip computer says we get 19.9 mpg in between city and highway driving. This seems to be the case regardless of what kind of driving you do. With a full 20 gal tank we can just barely make 320 miles with mixed driving. That's probably not too bad when compared to some SUVS, but I find it rather dissapointing.

Carelton will tell you he gets much higher ratings than 19.9, and believe him...he's telling the truth. Our 98 GC SE (similar to his 99 model) got about the same. However, the T&C sits on larger and heavier 16 inch chrome wheels that add to the car's total weight.

Anway, I'm glad you are enjoying your first minivan, hotspur. I would like very much for you to post more messages on how the NAV system works and how you like it. DC is now offerering a similar system but it does not look as complete as the one that comes standard with the Ody EX NAV. Thanks!

-Adam

tomtomtom · July 2001

I am guessing you are 16 years old. You probably know a sound system could sounds different in different vehicles. I do not know if the system in the Accord Coupe is the same as the one in Ody. But the one in the Ody is not up to standard compare to our systems. I guess Honda didn't think people who drive a minivan care too much about the sound system. However, this is one advantage about Honda's system, it is very easy to upgrade to any brand you want.

4aodge · July 2001

tomtomtom, your right in guessing that I am 16 years old. I think your also correct when you say Honda didn't really think people who drive minivans care too much about the sound system. Who knows, they might be right. However, because music is such a big part of my life a good sound system is somewhat important to me.

I wasn't aware you had a DC minivan. What year and model do you have? Thanks.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

wellphyt · July 2001

The sound system in the 99 Odyssey EX is not very good. Although I do appreciate a nice sounding sound system I am by no means an audiophile and the sound system had no impact on my buying decision. The quality of the sound system isn't as important when your playing CDs such as "Playtime Favorites" with well known hits "Skip To My Lou" and "Farmer In The Dell".

hotspur · July 2001

for a better radio. Better to see at night, I'd say. Safety vs. frippery.

tomtomtom · July 2001

I know the sound system is probably the last thing you care about in a car but many drivers do want to listen to quality music while driving and for some people the driving time might be the only time they can enjoy the music. If Honda can put some nice systems in their other models why not in the Ody? Oh well, I guess they figured most people will rip it out and replace it anyway.

odd1 · July 2001

I think the host is actually the one deleting carlton's posts.

Yes, there is a board devote to Odyssey sound. Because we Odyssey owners are a bunch of damn yuppies that now have two kid and our BMW's are no longer practical. We miss our Harmon Kardon systems.

But, that's better than a board devoted to transmission problems. A nice after market stereo can be added for under $400. Can't say the same for tranny repairs.

BTW unless I'm driving alone without the kids. I don't get to enjoy the stereo, nor my music anyway.

tomtomtom · July 2001

You actually like the Harmon Kardon systems in the bimmer? The HK system in my wife's bimmer is the worst stereo upgrade I have ever bought...the bass is muffed and the high isn't crystal clear as the price tag suggested. The only reason I bought it was there isn't any aftermarket system avaliable for the Bimmer (same as the situation with current DC van). First I thought it was the car but I tested the other at the dealers, they all sounded the same. As I said before, the advantage of Honda's system is the easy after market upgrade option. I wished DC didn't put in those custom stereo like they did but I am glad the current system is nice otherwise I will be stuck with it. I didn't mean to discuss the sound system in here but...well I will stop right here.

BTW, I get to enjoy the music before and after I dropped the kid off to daycare.

john330 · July 2001

Ask your dealer to see Honda Service Bulletin 00-065. It says all 1999 models and 2000 models between certain vin numbers are affected with a transmission problem. Honda did not implement a Recall, they are waiting for the customers to find the problem (Honda probably hopes after your warranty expires). The problem also involves Accords. Hondas corrective action is to "replace the transmission with a remanufactured unit". In other words, they replaced some parts in someone elses defective transmission which may have had twice as many miles as yours, or worse yet, been involved in an accident and put it in your car. Honda would not install a brand new transmission in my car even though I am still under the new car warranty. A Honda representative told me they no longer purchase transmissions from the company that sold them these defective transmissions. How many other problems that Honda knows about are they hiding from us?

odd1 · July 2001

Thanks for the info. I know no manufacturer is immune from problems. That said I'll go with Honda's long term reputation for reliability over DC. As you point out Honda corrected the issue within a year. Chrysler claims that they fixed their transmission issues twelve years(I don't remember is 98 is when the reliability numbers got better?) after they've known about them.

That is why I'll never buy a DC product. What is the saying? Fool me once it's on you twice it's on me?

BTW carlton1 my 84 Accord(auto) had no transmission problems for the 185,000 miles I put on it. The college student I sold it to sold it about a year ago with 250,000 on it with no transmission problems.

Honda is not perfect by any means. With their reputation for engineering, why do they still design timing belts that will take out the whole engine if it breaks?

4aodge · July 2001

I agree and disagree with what odd1 is saying about DC minivan reliability. It is true that they have known there has been an obvious problem with the transmission in their vans for at least a decade. Yet they have made only started to make modifications to improve reliability in the last few years, and this has always troubled me.

However, I do not understand why someone would not buy a future DC product when they have obviously increased the build quality and reliability of their minivans significantly. The complaints of tranny failures in DC minivans shrinks every year, and it's only a matter of time before the quality in DC minivans is truly comparable to that of some Honda vehicles, like the Ody.

Basicly, I think holding a company's past failures and mistakes against them while they have made significant and intense efforts to improve the quality of their products is silly and unfair. It's almost as if some people with Ody's WANT to be able to say "I WILL NEVER BUY A DC MINIVAN" just because of some troubling tranny problems the past.

As for Accord transmission problems, I've never had a friend or family member with an Accord of any model year that has reported problems. Same for many of my friends with Toyota Camry's who seem to like them very much as well.

We'll we have owned three Chrysler vehicles within the last three years. All have performed as well as we ever could have expected them to and none have suffered from any major problem.

Here the DC products we've owned in order...

1998 Grand Caravan SE: traded it in at 70k miles; NO PROBLEMS

2000 Chrysler Town & Country LX: currently have 25k miles; NO PROBLEMS

2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser Limited: currently has 3k miles; NO PROBLEMS

-Adam (16/m/CA)

DTKWOK · July 2001

Typically if the timing belt broke on a Honda, there is a very good chance that the engine will suffer a good deal amount of damage. Why? Because Honda's are usually interference engines, that means if your belt broke, the pistons will still be translating up and down BUT, the valves will NOT, and chances are, you'll end up with some bent/destroyed vavles in the process (pistons running into valves, vice versa). Other car company engines don't have that type of system (i.e. non-intereference). Just change your belt at the recommended times and you will not have any problems with it.

wellphyt · July 2001

Change the timing when recommended. I owned a 1985 Honda Prelude and the timing belt broke at 68,000 miles. DTKWOK is exactly right. When the belt broke the valves stopped but the pistons kept moving. The result was one bent valve guide and 9 bent valves. Thankfully Honda payed for the repairs. At the time timing belt replacement on the Prelude wasn't part of the maintenance schedule.

jimj139 · July 2001

The big difference in the Dodge vans and Odyssey is resale value. The dealer I just visited carries Honda and Dodge. Odyssey had to pay sticker $26,640. Could get a Dodge EX caravan for $23,800. Salesman said you could buy the dodge used in 2-3 months for about 18K, they had a 99Honda Ex with 50k miles and just it for 21K.
Dumb to buy a new Chrsysler, they have flooded the market with these vans. Buy one slightly used for 2/3 the cost of a new one.
Comparing both vehicles, the Dodge was a much better ride, quieter, excellent sound system.
Dodge had cheap upholstery, child seat tethers sticking out of the seats, ouch!. The 2001 dodge is smaller, they went for style over function.
From a drivers standpoint, buy the Dodge EX, for passengers, buy the Honda.
I still don't know which way to go!

carleton1 · July 2001

The Odyssey currently holds resale value better.
The GC and Ody would be equal for me as the driver. Although I appreciate the padded door armrest of GC, I would like the manual height adjustment of current Ody LX. The GC is more comfortable for front passenger due to Ody glove box intrusion. 2nd row seating is better in the Ody. 3rd row would be better in Ody if GC had 50/50 split 3rd seat as in GC EX. Our 99 GC SE has more comfortable seating with one piece 3rd row seating than does the Ody. Ody has twice as much space behind 3rd seat.
I would NOT buy a used DC minivan. True, one may be able to buy a USED GC EX for $5k to $6k in a couple of months BUT it will have between 20,000 and 30,000 miles on it since it was a fleet or rental where it probably was ABUSED. Most USED DC minivans available for purchase at 1 year or less were driven by people who did NOT own them. If privately owned, the GC was probably a lemon. Most people who buy a new GC love their GC and will keep it. The popularity of DC for fleet or rental contributes to the lower resale. Used car managers will pay only the amount auctions are indicating. However, they will make more money on a lower mileage used one-owner GC that usually has more features than standard fleet/rental units.
My sister and brother-in-law got a NEW 2001 Odyssey EX not long ago for $26,660 which was $180 less than MSRP of $26,840. They love it with power sliding doors that my sister loves. The large cargo area is important to them as they frequently pick up family members at the airport.
The 1999 Ody LX we drove March 16, 1999 (without a salesman present) drove very similar to our 99 GC SE. I could not tell any difference in handling, road noise, performance. Perhaps the lighter weight of our GC SE is commensurate with less power?
Unless you plan to keep the minivan for a very long time, buy the Odyssey. If you believe DC minivans to be less reliable, get the Ody. We plan to either sell or give our 99 GC SE to one of our daughters or keep it for a LONG time. We were apparently lucky and got a very good GC SE that has 30,604 miles with ZERO problems. All of the many DC minivan owners we know have had no problems and love their Caravans/Voyagers/Town & Country minivans. Many have owned 1 or 2 DC minivans before purchasing their current one.

4aodge · July 2001

Today I took our new 2001 PT Cruiser into our local 5 star Chrysler dealership to have the 3k mile oil/filter change done. While there I asked Dave, one of the service managers about the causes of the notorious Chrysler transmission over the last decade and half and why so many have either failed or have serious problems.

He said the blame could be passed around to many places. He said Chrysler has re-done their transmissions over three times since the first minivans rolled out in the 80s and the current version used on the 2001-2002 model DC vans are "bullet-proof". According to Dave, a big part of the problem has been the owners of the vans with failed transmissions because many of them fail to properly service and maintain their vehicles. For example, he said not too long ago a customer came in and complained about his van's transmission and when asked about how often he serviced his car, he said "what service???".

Obviously, Chrysler did not make the best transmission on the planet to put into their vehicles. However, I would be willing to bet that the rate of failure in 2001 models is much lower than it was during the re-design in 1996.

Carelton, I think your right when you say the Ody's weight really ties down the powerful engine Honda put into the van. I think the same can be said for the 2001 long-base DC minivans as well. When I test drove a 2001 Town & Country Limited with the new 3.8L V6 it was only moderately more powerful than the 158hp 3.3L V6 in our 2000 Town & Country LX. In that respect, I was rather dissapointed.

-Adam (16/M/CA)

4aodge · July 2001

If Chrysler would really like to boast about having the fastest and most powerful V6 engine offered in any minivan, it should reconsider offering the 3.5L V6 engine as an option on the 2002 Town & Country Limited and 2002 Dodge Grand Caravan ES. Offering this powerful engine would attract people who not only like to enjoy the driving experience but also those who carry heavy loads and tow boats, trailers, ect.

The 3.5L V6 engine is the same one that is optional on the Dodge Intrepid ES and standard on the Chrysler 300m/Prowler. A salesman and friend at the local Chrysler dealership said that with without any computer speed-chip limiting the 3.5-liter SOHC 24-valve V6, it could reach speeds of at least 150 mph. This would be a great option for AWD long-wheel base DC minivans which are heavier than the regular long-wheel base models. It also might allow these vans to tow significantly more than they currently are able to.

Hopefully, DC might choose to put this babby into future models. It would really bring a new level of performance to the minivan market.

-Adam

wellphyt · July 2001

Your comparison above is right on. Dodge EX has quieter and smoother ride and better sound system. Ody EX feels more spacious, has better engineered second and third row seats, and comes standard with climate control, traction control and the homelink system. The Ody overall is a more functional van. I think the Honda design team must have done some extensive consumer research before they designed the current Ody.

drew_ · July 2001

Re-do as in updated. The transmission has never been completely redesigned from the ground up. What they have basically done is to look at what has failed, and then to tried to strengthen it so that it doesn't fail again. This has worked only marginally well at best, which is why it has taken them literally decades to work it out.

Although part of the reason for the transmission failures was due to improper maintenance or the wrong fluids being used (much of the time by the Chrysler service department), the fact remains that the transmission design was never really good in the first place and many owners were having problems within the first 20K-40K miles of their vehicles' lives. That's practically brand new and obviously something terribly wrong there. Chrysler knows this, and the owners who have had problems know this.

In any case, we have a seperate Chrysler minivans transmission problems discussion topic, so feel free to carry on this discussion in there if you wish.

The 3.8L V6 engine is not new, simply updated with more horsepower and torque. It's still the basic same 165hp 3.8L V6 engine that my '94 Grand Voyager LE AWD has. I found the 3.3L V6 sluggish in comparison though and the 3.0L V6 was worse, even in the non-"Grand" version of the vans. In my experience (and I've had plenty of experience with Chrysler loaner minivans) the fuel economy from the smaller engines isn't much better/worse than the 3.8L V6 either. The 3.8 in my van is good, but it runs out of breath in certain conditions.

BTW, what does the "(16/M/CA)" sig at the end of nearly each of your messages mean?

Drew
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