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I expected something fast and exclusive--a real collector's item. All we got was magnetic shocks and the obligatory paint and upholstery package. Guess I'll have to wait for the C6...
It would be hard to get "radical" with the already awesome setup!
"...I figured Chevy would so something like building a limited run of 2003 specially prepared anniversary editions featuring big horsepower and torque (500 is the number I envisioned).
I expected something fast and exclusive--a real collector's item. All we got was magnetic shocks and the obligatory paint and upholstery package. Guess I'll have to wait for the C6... "
The price would be through the roof with the numbers and modifications you are envisioning, especially on the current platform.
To me, something radical can probably only come with a platform change.
To me, it would mean a body weight of say 2500 #'s,
(600 #'s of shed body weight by it self, if nothing changes in the HP rating of the engine, would be like adding 60 hp!!)
(which probably violates some current governments safety programs)
and anywhere from 425-500 hp which would require a totally different frame, drive train and suspension. The P/W ratio would go from an already awesome 7.70 to a radical 5.55-5.00 !!! Already the good news and the bad news is that there are probably only a handful of higher performance cars that can slightly to mildly surpass the current Z06. When you factor in the performance/price ratio, the C-5, Z06 occupies a rarefied niche.
Again, I'm not talking about a full production run, just a limited edition to drive the collectors crazy and bring Chevy more bragging rights.
I'm all for the weight reduction you discuss, but I don't want to give up most of the luxury items that would get tossed in the process. The Vette is light relative to most cars anyway.
The ability to modify an already awesome platform already exists! From your posting I took what you said to mean STOCK. Sure we can talk modifications in great technical detail, but really do you think you can just get a supercharger installed for 9 k? First of all, Lingerfelter would probably be the first to tell you it would be wise to upgrade the clutch. And the truth is that is really only the beginning! Chevrolet itself changed the clutch when it went from the 2001 to 2002 Z06 and the HP rating only went from 385 to 405=20 hp more? So now we have a 61k k machine and beyond? Trust me, I am not saying it can't be done, but without the myraid of small detail changes, the durability is not going to be there. Chevrolet when it "improved" the 2002 Z06 from the 2001 Z06 upped the price app 6k and that was only for a 20 hp improvement!?
Additionally, sure 490 hp and 480 # ft of torque approaches "beast" like performance, but on the current platform measures out to a P/W ratio of 6.36 which is truly awesome I might add but a ways from the 5.55-5 that a 600 # weight reduction would contribute. (P/W ratio2500# / 490=5.10) So while the supercharger modification is indeed awesome to get a 5.10 P/W ratio in the current platform (3118#s) we are talking 600 plus HP.
That is the good news, the bad news is that you have just created a whole host of new problems.
I expected something fast and exclusive- ... "
Expectations are usually based on something. Why expect 50th at that level? What was the 25th, 35th, 40th? I'm guessing that what you really mean is you were wishing for something that was always very unlikely based on a little history.
However, it will be interesting to see how the intersection of climbing performance and environmental concerns play out over the next decade. Where will the power curve get cut like it did in the early 70's if new CA CO2 law gets implemented in 2009 MY. Something tells me there is going to be a sweet spot there somewhere, but how to pick it before it passes will be the trick.
Yes and I think further that it also will be a very hard to hit moving target with lots of obstacles . Also that is why I think the greatest gains will be the structural weight loss race.(10 hp and 5% better gas mileage per 100 #'s)Not only that but we are even seeing 5W-20 oil for energy conservation purposes!! So in that sense we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel when they go to less engine protection for the sake of minute' energy conservation. We have already seen overwhelming support for the "lighter" weight environmental cars (sub 2700#'s Toyota and Honda) despite evidence to the contrary that 3-5k pounds is really the safer alternative. Already the Corvette if driven under 65 mph is capable of between EPA of 19-28 mpg. To my mind this is pretty amazing for an eight cylinder sports car when 6 cylinder sports cars get way less % mpg!!! So if the platform loses 600#s, the theoretical targets using off the shelf technologies will be 30% better = 8.4 mpg or 36 mpg app.
Actually, I did mean STOCK. I hoped that Chevy might either work a deal with a tuner like Lingenfelter to produce a limited run of special editions for the factory or that Chevy would do the job in-house (either way it would be considered stock from the factory). Just as Ford has done with the new Cobra, Chevy could easily equip a Vette with a supercharger. Chevy has entered into agreements with tuners many times in the past (SLP comes readily to mind), why not do it now for the 50th anniversary? As far as the costs are concerned, check out the Lingenfelter website, pick out the options you think the car should have and tally up the total. Then apply a 20% discount to account for GM's immense buying power. What I think you'll come up with is an anniversary edition Vette that runs sub-12 second quarter miles for under $55k. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
I agree with your comments on a lighter car in the future. However, I was talking about a one-time good deal for Corvette fans TODAY, not a long-term solution. Hopefully, the C6 will be lighter.
Starrow68:
You make a good point that Chevy hasn't really done anything special with previous anniversary editions. However, the 50th anniversary of anything should be extra special--that's why they call it the "golden" anniversary. My "expectations" were based on the belief that Bob Lutz might actually take this opportunity to make a difference at Chevy right from the start.
Chevy is in trouble. Light truck sales are the only thing keeping GM afloat. The only way GM will ever recover from its current funk in the passenger car business is to become more innovative and apply its vast resources and engineering skills to produce cars that people actually want. Why not start by doing something truly special with your flagship car for its biggest birthday?
That said, I probably should have said "wished" versus "expected."
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11444
Well I think equally as obvious is that the opportunity window you wax about has long since been shut. And I also think that if GM is in trouble, the other big guys are in worse shape. Since you have mentioned Ford, we dont have to look too far for an example.
The other bottom line is not only does Chevrolet not build a Corvette till a firm order is in hand, but they are getting to be in a position not unlike BMW, where they don't HAVE to discount very much. In that narrow sense, GM is starting to really "get it"
Or another way to look at expectations is that 350 hp meets expectations until you get used to it and raise the bar. Still satisfied, even happy to be honest!
1. A supercharged engine would probably drop the mileage into 'gas guzzler' territory, or at very least would hurt GM's CAFE number.
2. It would definitely raise the price.
3. GM is selling all the Corvettes they can make, anyway.
4. GM doesn't have infinite resources. Spending time/engineering/money/etc.. on a special 50th Anniversary edition of the C5 probably just delays the C6.
You'll notice that my solution for GM to make the 50th special relies on using a tuner like Lingenfelter to do most of the work. If you check out the Car & Driver story on the Lingenfelter supercharged Vette, you'll find the answers to your concerns:
1. EPA City rating for the supercharged car is 18 mpg--about the same as a stock model. Besides, 2003 "gas guzzlers" aren't going to hurt GM's CAFE by more than a tenth of a mpg (if that much).
2. The price of a loaded Lingenfelter special is $58k. If we assume that Chevy gets a volume discount but add back the additional cost (aka "price gouge") for the anniversary package and the cost comes up pretty close. Lesser 2003 Vettes would keep their standard pricing. (With a name like Machiavelli, are you really worried about the price or is all that "end justifies the means" stuff just hype?)
3. I'm happy that Chevy is selling all the Corvettes they can make, but how does that help fans who were hoping for something more than paint and embroidery?
4. All the design work has already been done and tested by Lingenfelter (or whichever tuner GM could have hired). Therefore, very little internal effort would be wasted by Chevy in creating the special edition.
Chevy really missed an opportunity to show what they were about. The Corvette's 50th anniversary was the perfect opportunity to establish Chevy as a performance leader. Think of all the free publicity Chevy would have gotten as it rolled out it's limited edition Viper-, Ferrari- and Lamborghini-killer. I can visualize the headlines: Chevy introduces king of the hill version of "America's sports car".
Check out the Lingenfelter story in the April 2002 Car & Driver.
Actually it would be far cheaper for you to buy a 50th anniversary and have the Lingerfelter modifications done on it yourself!!! Then it would be a stealth 50th.!!!
It would have been something nice for Corvette diehards, but I still don't think it's a great loss for GM/Chevy that they didn't do more for the 50th. It's a business. GM is selling all the Corvettes they can make. They don't really need a "special edition" to boost sales. Corvette diehards will buy all the 50th anniversary editions anyway.
Good! You know I am not trying to rain on your parade! But in addition to huge reliability and warranty concerns, they have got to be concerned with how durable add ons will be!Obviously if you put in thousands of dollars of modifications,YOU are in the drivers seat, so to speak, the major determining factor (given sound engineering and build quality) on how reliable or durable this machine can and will be.
Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a cheeleader for C&D and Lingenfelter!
I just purchased a 1995 BMW 525i. In just two months, I am already having problems with the driver side power window. Can anyone tell me if this car is going to be hi-maint? It was a toss-up btwn this and a MB E300.
Don't worry about cheerleading when you are cheering on the winner, sounds like the best time to cheerlead .
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/ 2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener.xml
Since I don't like to solve tech problems and link is over 115 ch's. just cut and paste and take the space out in front of 2002 in the middle.
Also, didn't stop to read but at the market this AM there was a C&D comparison issue with stock Corvette vs. other sports cars, pretty nice result if you like the Vette. Don't see it on the C&D web site yet.
Host
I see advertisements in the paper all the time lately, showing $4000 off PLUS a $1000 rebate. This is the first time that GM has ever given a Rebate on a Corvette than I can remember.
I wish I had bought mine this year instead of last year, when all I could muster up was a $3000 total discount.
A couple of things:
1. not long ago there was a $2000. rebate on Corvettes. Don't quote me but I believe it was before the 9/11 tragedy, the 9/11 tragedy seen as the trigger for the current " economic recession."
2. GETTING there is the operative word. In that sense BMW ,in so far as the domestic market, can be seen to be "there".
In fact, there are many ways around this.
To keep on topic, there are many ways to get a "cheaper" Vette. So I do not appear to be vague, I mean invoice, plus...
Discounts on the Web are up into the 5k and even 6k range if you want to look around. But since I've had almost 12,000 miles of smiles, glad I didn't wait. You can always put off doing something but you may not be as happy as if you just moved ahead. Also getting what will make you happy in the long run to me is more important than saving a few more bucks and taking what is on the lot.
Try for info and maybe you can get more input.
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12017
At invoice is an awesome deal! While I do not have a 50th Anniversary model, I do have a 2001 Z06. While each individual car can have its very own issues, the only one that I have had after over 36k miles (a common problem) is a leaking differential) This was covered under warranty.
I've just recieved my 2002 corvette convertible.
1. Under 150 miles on it the door module needed to be replaced. Anybody else have this issue?
2. Probally my fault to have the car shipped from MI to NJ on flatbed - Paint has scattter marks all over it! Needs to go to bodyshop - Hope GM supports this.
3. I have a 6 speed. When the car idles in nuetral
there is a rattle under the car. The dealership said this is just the transmission and this is Normal? Also the car needs to be brought up to at least 2000 rpm's in first or there is a noise from the clutch plate?
Thanks!
1. This must be a statistical anomoly, yours is the first I have heard.
2. Good luck it sounds like a new car delivery issue that they need to stand behind.
3. A certain amount of "marbles" in a can sound is normal.
However, what your's sounds like is parts of the transmission rubbing against the transmission tunnel. This can seriously degrade the life of the transmission to the point it will get out of warranty and fail. While I can't be real certain, the folks at the dealer would be able to inspect and correct under warranty.
I just called the dealer and they said they are too busy too check it out! They of coarse are not the dealership I bought the car from. Anyway thanks for the info I'll have to bring it in to another shop. I would hate to have damage being done to the car. Besides the ridiculous problems the car is a lot of fun.
Ted
Article from Detroit FP
Now the car has about 3000km on it and when I start it in the morning and I leave from home, I can shift from 1st to 2nd when it's "supposed" to do the skip shift. Also, shifting at 2000 or even 1500rpm will make a backfire. It does that for the first 4-5 minutes I drive the car. After that, everything is ok. Usually when there are backfires it's because the "combustion" is not correct but how come for the first 4-5 minutes and shifting at whatever rpm will cause this. I hope that everybody who owns a Z06 will say they hear the same noise! If not, is it possible that it will damage something or should I check with the dealer?
I'm concerned, thank you,
Sylvain
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=385432
I got mine through a contact I made at the forum and drove it back from Montana to CA, great trip.
Good luck.
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=168