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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
The DCX 3.8L is available in all states I don't see whats hard to understand. The Honda has tweeked the emissions for Ca(which is where i live) So I can compare both of them to a DCX 3.8L! One for Ca and one for the other 49 states. I don't understand why there is a problem with this logic. Etheir way the Honda has a very good green score and the DCX 3.8L is much lower. As far as where Edmunds got that info I can't find it anywhere! Can you??
Come on you know how much bigger goverments getting we have alot more politicial friends to appoint, fueleconomy.gov is part of the Department of Energy! Nothing special about that Dana! Shows tons per year from non VCM as 8.9 tons and VCM as 8.1 tons. The dodge 3.3 L is 8.6 tons and the 3.8L is 9.4 tons.
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I remember my father moaning about electronic ignitions and how gapping points was a better way (since that is what he knew!)......now we have no keys, gas caps are going to dissappear next, flats are basically history.
On top of all that, just seen on Matt Drudge, a report on the Saudis having twice the oil reserves they previously thought they had!!! Enough oil to fuel a booming world economy (including China) for the next 110 years!!!!!!!!!
FYI - I'm a "glass is half full" kinda guy
Sorry but that is change in my book, for the worst. Ohhh on top of that....."the 7/70 really isn't needed, Dodge has been building the same basic engine/tranny for 11 years without problems"??????
They may also lose market share because of their stupid decision to keep information on 2006 minivans off their web site while Honda and Toyota have made all information on their 2006 minivans available....even though Edmunds had the data before Honda and Toyota posted it. Edmunds has also had information on 2006 DC minivans in the Edmund's New Vehicle pricing.
From the Edmunds comparasion site, Pounds of smog producing pollution per 15,000 miles, Odyssey 3.5 = 20.8 - 25.0 POUNDS. Dodge Caravan 3.8 = 12.3 - 12.9. POUNDS
From sebring95 referenced chart, Greenhouse gas produced in tons per year per 15,000 miles, Odyssey 3.5 = 8.40 - 8.90 TONS, Dodge Caravan 3.8 = 9.40 TONS, Dodge Caravan 3.3 = 8.60 TONS. Thes ratings are turned into an air pollution scores of 2 for the Dodge Caravan 3.8 and 6 for the 3.3. The Odyssey 3.5 scored a 6 or a 7. Looking at another chart that converts Air pollution scores into POUNDS per 15,000 miles, translates into Dodge Caravan 3.8 = 39.0 -40.6 POUNDS. Dodge Caravan 3.3 =12.3 - 12.9 POUNDS. Odyssey with a 6 = 12.3 - 12.9 POUNDS, Odyssey with a 7 = 7.9 - 11.8 POUNDS. Clear now? Or still confused because CR stated EPA estimates can be up to 45% off?
Looks like Edmunds reversed its ratings, or they know something we don't.
Cars sell for whatever the market dictates. They are worth every penny of MSRP when you compare them with what's out there. After hearing this from FIVE dealers, I'm sure I'm not telling you what you don't already know.
Also, know that some of the "Prices Paid" that you read about in internet forums aren't always accurate.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking that a Honda isn't worth the price, but when I hear that a lot of people are getting invoice, or near that, of course I'm going to want that too! There's obviously some room for negotiation even in the most high-demand market (like Maryland) if one dealer is quoting me $32,500 and another one 5 miles down the road is at $28,800. Certainly you can't tell me the first dealership is demanding a 12% premium to the other guy because it's what the market dictates.... it's the same market. There are other forces at work here: i.e., negotiation, holdbacks, etc. I'm in this forum for some help because I want advice on how to negotiate with a dealer, knowing that I'm in the market for a G. Caravan or Odyssey.
Check the Smart Shoppers forum. A lot of advise there.
Also, please re-read my last sentence in my earlier post to you.
I think we all got it. I'd like your method if you worked for me! I haven't seen prices paid that didn't seem more than realistic. Haven't seen any Odys selling for well under invoice, but the good deals are in that ballpark. Not sure why that would be so hard to believe. My third phonecall put me into an Ody EX-L R&N at invoice. I made it clear I didn't need any fancy playing around, didn't need babied, I would bring a check and take no more than a few minutes of the salespersons time. When I picked it up, I was in/out of the parking lot in less than 15 minutes. No reason a salesman shouldn't want that business. I've only paid more than $500 over invoice for two of my last ten new vehicles which include three toyotas, a honda, two Dodge, and two GM. Ended up $1,200 over on the wifes Lexus, and $900 over on the boys RSX-S. Sales folks don't like to hear this stuff, but that's life.
Thanks for all the advice...
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Late reply, I know, but I'm just getting through the posts on this forum.
This was one of the funnier comments that I've read. How, exactly, does being "nice" preclude durability?!? Really! :confuse:
My wife and I were in the market for a minivan a couple of months ago.We have no kids, three dogs (two of them run in agility competitions) and a pile of telescopes and equipment for my astronomy hobby. We considered and tested DGC, Ody, Chevy Uplander, and Sienna. We were completely brand and model agnostic going into the hunt. After much long testing and discussion, the Ody LX came out on top for both of us. The upper trims offered us nothing that we needed, wanted, or could justify the $$ on (power doors - nope. 6 cd changer - nope, not with an MP3 player and an FM transmitter. Leather seats: With dogs? Fuhggeddaboutit! Sun roof: nice to have, but not necessary. What sold us was its versatility (we can fit a full sheet of plywood if needed), comfort, handling, and safety features. Our LX has all of the safety items and the same power plant as the rest of the line. For our lifestyle and $$, we feel that the Ody gives us the most bang for our buck. This in no way takes anything away from the Sienna and T&C. Both are great vans as well (Uplander omitted here intentionally) and quite honestly I'd be proud to have either in the driveway. For this moment in our lives, the Ody was the best fit, for us.
Cheers,
- Craig
- Craig
I should point out though, that my wife left one of our pups in the backseat of our leased '02 Malibu for a few minutes while she instructed a beginner handlers course (she's done this many times before, as Piper will bark his head off if he's in his kennel inside listening to her instruct). He usually settles down. Last week, something spooked him, probably thunder or a car backfiring. He shredded the rear driver's-side door. Neither the Ody or the DGC could have taken that! The dealer wanted about CDN$1000 to fix it. I'll go to a wrecker and get a replacement door panel there...
- Craig
Based on my personal experience in reconditioning automobiles in college at a VW dealership, IMHO......the more cloth/leather etc...the more wear and tear is visible.
Misfiring, nice way to put it when I looked at the recall it said it possibly wouldn't go off. Not blow up in your face like you imply. Another slant to make things look worse then they are, same thing happened with my clockspring assy on my 2001 caravan. Go ahead and look up how many hits you have on 2001 Caravan and airbag light. Nice thing is they are taking care of it now. I don't think DCX ever recalled the clockspring assy! This was due to a sensor not being sealed properly. The brake problem affects 2200+ units and it was taken care of quickly. I like companies that come out and fix a issue. I'm not so sure DCX will. Here's a recent article that makes me suspect they just hope it goes away. Strange thing is there's been 33,000+ warranty claims on 2001-2002 DCX van headlights but haven't seen it here! Makes you wonder how good forums are for reliabilty information. My guess is not good at all!
Intensified NHTSA Probe of DaimlerChrysler Minivans
June 7, 2005
The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) has upgraded its safety investigation that could lead to the recall of 813,597 Chrysler Town & Country and other minivans because of headlight failures.
Consumers are reporting that their headlights are not operating properly. The lights sometimes flicker and dim. There are complaints of lights intermittently shutting off.
Some consumers report that that they had to have their vehicle towed after the lights would not come back on.
The investigation of 2001 and 2002 model year Town & Country, Plymouth Voyager and Dodge Caravan models was upgraded by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration after 704 complaints and 33,539 warranty claims.
- Craig
Quibble all you want....misfiring or not going off when needed, isn't a good thing. It's not a slant, it's a fact. I don't memorize recall wording, it's difficult enough to keep track of the overall Honda numbers
I never owned a 2001 DCX so I can't verify you statements as usual. I know Honda does recalls out of the goodness of their big corporate heart, while every other auto manufacturer lies and hides them!! If one wanted to waste their time digging up dirt on the others, go to it! But I'm not playing that game.
Common sense says you never purchase a first year model, and evidently this applies to Honda Odysseys....no company is perfect.
Really? We bought leather specifically because of our three dogs. Easy fur clean up and very durable. Not to mention heated seats! Mmmm Hmmm, Toasty.
No car manufacturer is perfect. Most automotive designs can arguably be described as a series of compromises. If one wanted a vehicle that appealed to the lowest common denominator, I suppose that we'd be arguing the merits (or lack thereof) of the K-car...
So! Lets state that that the Ody and the DGC (and outside the scope of this forum, the Toyota Sienna) are worthy additions to the driveways and lifestyles of Joe/Jane Consumer. Let's keep in mind that, albeit expensive by any measure, these puppies are just things. Doo-dads. Necessities. Equals rising above the...ummm...also-rans.
Let's also dispense with the rhetoric. You've been quick (and often) to state either directly or through thinly-veiled inferrence that Ody owners feel a sense of superiority and that Ody owners feel that Honda "CAN NOT DO WRONG!". You (and a small few others), apparently, feel a perverse need to prick this illusary and imaginary balloon. Let me state without hesitance, as I've been reading these forums from post 1 to current, that the only folks who invoke this "infallibility" of Honda are owners of other brands. I really, sincerely, don't get it :confuse: . The only reason that I bring it up is that this rhetorical and knee-jerk provocation detracts from the whole point of this forum: To discuss the relative merits, advantages, and disadvantages, of either brand and their respective models for other prospective buyers. Personally, as I have stated, I am brand agnostic. Honda today, DGC next time, maybe Toyota.
My wife and I chose the Honda Ody LX. We also liked (and came very close to buying) the DGC. The Sienna was also so, so, close in the running. I find it annoying and frankly odd the need to poke at those who made one choice over another, and the need to infer that those who bought one over the other are snobs or who just bought on name and (supposed) reputation. We made our purchase after a lot of research, agonizing, negotiation, and testing. For us, though it was so, so, so, close, the Ody won, and just barely. And, most importantly, it won based soley on where we are at in our lives and for our personal circumstance. This ain't a winner-take-all thing folks. It's just a consumer decision regarding acquiring a thing based on what best works for you given your own personal circumstance. Let's leave the religious wars to the Apochromatic refractor telescope owners, audiophiles, and traditional religious zealots.
Stepping off of my soapbox and donning my flame-proof suit,
- Craig
Didn't I say this? FYI - If not for the K-car, who knows if we'd be driving Minivans today since they were the underpinnings of the 1st modern FWD minivan.
Let me state without hesitance, as I've been reading these forums from post 1 to current, that the only folks who invoke this "infallibility" of Honda are owners of other brands. I really, sincerely, don't get it .
You obviously haven't read too many posts. Comments/denials from members who make claims as to never seeing Honda needing to replace engines, or tranny problems being minor, or never needing an A/C guard, or DCX constantly being in the garage. Just last week socalawd commented without basis how my DCX product was in garage more than his'....total fiction.
The only reason that I bring it up is that this rhetorical and knee-jerk provocation detracts from the whole point of this forum: To discuss the relative merits, advantages, and disadvantages, of either brand and their respective models for other prospective buyers.
You'll get rhetorical and knee-jeck provocation from me when you want to limit discussion to just fluffy stuff, and keep distance from recalls/problem comparisons, which are merits, advantages/disadvantages for prospective buyers.
One owner, new pads at 10k. There's a statistically significant sample. Not knowing any other details, particularly the driving style of the owner, this is just a bit of nose-tweaking.
Post 4577 "Sorry there's a PATTERN of problems with the 2005 Oddys. This is a Honda vs. Dodge section, noting those problems for potential buyers is fair game. The last Honda recall affected 85,000 owners, a well known fact to all, even if it didn't affect you personally. Don't we also know for a fact that the Oddy doors came open during crash testing by the govt?"
"Pattern" of problems? Not really. 4 recalls. Have you read the details? The largest one covering 85k vehicles stated: "THE FRONTAL AIR BAG SYSTEM HAS TWO EXTERNAL IMPACT SENSORS. ON CERTAIN MINI VANS,SOME SENSORS WERE INSUFFICIENTLY SEALED DURING MANUFACTURING. IF WATER ENTERS A SENSOR, CORROSION CAN OCCUR. CORRODED SENSORS COULD SHORT CIRCUIT INTERNALLY. IF SENSORS FAIL, THE SRS WARNING LAMP ON THE INSTRUMENT PANEL WILL TURN ON AND REMAIN ILLUMINATED." Note that this affects some vans - the recall of 85k was cautionary. The other recalls affected 203, 1923, and 2247 vehicles.
One door opened partially, a few inches in that test.
Post 4566 "I get almost dead on EPA numbers, without some gee wiz cylinder deactivation to worry about somewhere down the road, and based on the 05 Oddy issues, it's not too far down the road."
Odd statement that. You're correlating a perception (yours) of a pattern of "issues" with future problems to the engine... :confuse:
My whole point of pointing out the above comments is that these are purely rhetorical, a "your choice was foolish, so I'm going to tweak you" response. For the person or family in the market for a new van, this offers nothing.
I absolutely agree that recalls should be looked at and discussed rationally and impartially. Are they systemic design flaws? What is the real risk of injury or death? Are they immediately concerning or preventative in nature? How was the issue handled by the manufacturer (Mitsubishi being the benchmark for the worst)? We looked closely at the recalls for the vehicles that we tested not only for the current model year but also for previous years as well. Our research did not show a pattern of issues with Honda, just new-model bugs that we feel were handled appropriately. The maturity of the DGC line showed only a seatbelt recall, as did the Sienna, which was a plus in their favor. At the end of our calculations, the issues related to the Honda recalls were not severe enough to be concerning. I would recommend to anyone who has concerns with new models to wait until the next year after a model's release. We got our Ody at the end of the '05 production, so I am not concerned at all with the minor recalls thus far. YMMV.
- Craig
Sorry if It appears that I'm picking on you, but your posts are the ones that kept popping out at me. In my experience, refuting possibly exaggerated claims with sarcasm is far less effective than correcting them with facts or logical probing questions. The former approach tends to distract from the issues regardless of whether your position is valid or not.
4 recalls, in my book, is not "recall after recall". Far from it, as three of those recalls did not affect many vehicles and there are no (as far as I am aware) deaths or injuries resulting from the issue(s) that generated the recall. The AC damage thing I can't speak to, but a look at the front of my Ody does show the condensor coils to be exposed by large gaps in the grill. Does anyone have any numbers on how many vehicles have been affected? Given that I'm not one for tailgating on dirt roads at high speed, I can assume that I should't be terribly concerned at this point
As for brake pads, at least two things can be the issue: the way the person drives, or there is a flaw with some of the pads Honda's brake pad subcontractor provided. Same with the sensor issue that affected 2200 vehicles. I recently had a problem with 1000 chips from a well-known semi-conductor manufacturer that had a particular lot code number. The other lots were fine, but this one run had flaws and had to be returned. Some flaws in electronics will manifest themselves only under certain conditions i.e. temperature, humidity, voltage etc, so they can pass initial quality tests.
Lastly, well, 4 feet may not be a whopping amount, but it may make the difference between a collision with another car's rear-end or a child or not. If you (referring generically to anyone) want to use emperical data, you can't arbitrarily regard one fact as important and another irrelevant to suit your position. Test results comparing vehicles under identical conditions are fairly black and white. If the Honda (or any other vehicle) had a a better stopping distance by 4 feet, it had a better stopping distance. If an Olympic gold medalist wins by .04 seconds, does that detract from the fact that he/she was faster?
Cheers,
- Craig
I come here to talk about whats different about DCX/Honda products. I don't feel superior at all. I also think what I paid for my van wasn't a ripoff, it was well worth the price considering resale and standard equipment!! I just liked the features of the Honda. In a car of this size VSA is almost a need in 2005. I also have no use for the stow and go which I think is DCX biggest selling point. I really like all the features and love the driving feel. It is has quicker passing times(which helps in LA traffic) and tests show it stops faster. The standard side airbags are also a plus, the interior is well thought out and easy to reconfigure. After 4 months its not perfect and there's things I'd change if I was in charge at Honda. I'd love a big center console(instead of that flip up thing) and telescopic steering wheel. Ok I know it nit picking but thats the way some people are! As for the recalls if I get any I'll get them fixed. For me(I said me here LOL)a few recalls is not that big a deal as long as the company comes out and takes care of it.
It was a joke, see you had a oil change at the dealer and I didn't. So in fact you did go to the dealer one more time than me!! I didn't think I needed to point that out. My apologies for trying to be funny.
But I think the statement is too broad. I worked in service, too, and there were some models that seemed to go less miles on brakes than others. Older Ford Econolines and the '77 to '83 Chevy Impales, just to mention a couple. My daughter gets three times the brake mileage out of her Altimas than she ever did with her Tempos.
However, that being said, I'd have to agree that when I hear of just 10,000 miles on brakes there is either something wrong with that specific car/truck, or its the driver.
Dusty
Don't buy it!!! You said this before I mentioned my oil change even!!!!
If you read any of mackcavas posts you would understand where some of the Ody superiority complex comes from. I have noticed it from a few...not soca though. But, I suspect you have those types in minivan owners of every manufacturer.
I came close to buying the Ody LX in July 2004. Thought it was a very nice van with a lot to offer for the money. Though didn't care for the overly boxy exterior styling. I think the current Ody generation is much more stylish and attractive. Though the DGC and Town & Country are a bit more appealing than Ody in exterior style, the interior needs a new makeover.
I read other boards can't remember when I saw it but you did it and said you were looking at the EP+ vans. I'd say first week of sept. The 24th was when i said that!
As far as buying it, I'm not selling it so nothiung to buy here!!
Hey astromer this forum is alot like family. So welcome to the family! As for me and dennis we like to push our opinions forcefully. I'm actually thinking he may find his way out here(Irvine is a huge place for car design)and we could have a good talk other beers and mexician food. He believes the Honda is too expensive and too prissy. I think Dodge needs VSC and to get a more responsive drivetrain. Then there's like 100 other small things we disagree about. BTW I think the McCoys started it!!
Here's your initial comments and my gracious attempt thinking that you had me confused with someone else. IF i'm wrong, and I had mentioned my Oil Change previously, please find the post and all will be forgiven (maybe!!).
2005 (2:47 am)
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Replying to: dennisctc (Sep 23, 2005 9:02 pm)
CR is good for cold hard facts and testing standards. When the 2006 CR Auto Issue hits the stands, I'm certain the Oddy will be a recommended buy with all solid red circles.
Probably not all red circles but close Heck I've got 5500 miles on my car and you've been to the dealer more than me!! The Ody is a great vehicle. If you are cross shopping find a automall with both dealerships. Drive them both and see for yourself there's alot of personal preferance involved. I like the VSC which is not available on the DCX vans. Also like the looks the interior, the feel, the acceration, the braking, the reliability, the packaging, the standard side airbags! Stow and go is nice but the DCX to me seems like a one trick pony!
#4581 of 4697 Re: If a person must have the most power.... [socalawd] by dennisctc Sep 24, 2005 (9:04 am)
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Replying to: socalawd (Sep 24, 2005 2:47 am)
Probably not all red circles but close Heck I've got 5500 miles on my car and you've been to the dealer more than me!!
You must be thinking of some other person on here. I have 8500 trouble free miles on my 2005 DC GC SXT and had it back to dealership once for a $29.00 oil change and tire rotation. They charged me $19 though because I misplaced the wheel lock and they couldn't rotate my tires.
And I always WIN :P
Beware guys!!!! When I retire in a few years, I'm driving around the country, egging all your Oddys
Ohhh btw, please have all your kids watch My Bedbugs on PBS!!! It'll help me retire early (investor), buy a Dodge sprinter class C motorhome and egg all of you :P How's that for a shameless plug?
Here's your initial comments and my gracious attempt thinking that you had me confused with someone else. IF i'm wrong, and I had mentioned my Oil Change previously, please find the post and all will be forgiven (maybe!!).
Here ya go. I'm sure all won't be forgiven LOL!!! It was all to get your goat after all the Odyssey are always at the Dealer remarks you've been pushing
Re: EP Plus is not the dealers bottom line! [salesman3] by dennisctc Sep 07, 2005 (3:08 pm)
You wrote!!
Maybe this is a Detroit thing, but I was at dealership getting oil change last week and saw EP Plus on all the vehicles on showroom floor. What's this???
No after reading all our posts, people probably go out and buy the Sienna.
Beware guys!!!! When I retire in a few years, I'm driving around the country, egging all your Oddys unless I buy myself a trouble free 2007 Oddy
If you can catch me!
Bought a 2006 Sienna LE on Friday September 23, 2005.