Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

thegraduate · October 2005

I cant imagine someone with kids who complain that the "built-in DVD player screen is too small". That would be one spoiled kid! We have a portable one that sits in your lap or hangs between the front seats, has a 5 inch screen, and keeps whoever watching perfectly happy!

By the way, I think the heated seats are too hot, the stereo quality is rather mediocre, and the mirrors are much too shiny. (LOL

)

socalawd · October 2005

and the mirrors are much too shiny.

I was like No Way!! But I went out and your right the mirrors are too shiny(damn you Honda)

Oh here's a link to a new article they call the Odyssey get this(The Maybach of Minivans) Now thats the first time I've heard that.

link title

dennisctc · October 2005

Oh here's a link to a new article they call the Odyssey get this(The Maybach of Minivans) Now thats the first time I've heard that.

OMG.....a "Sex in the City" marathon for his daughter's trip to camp? Don't get me wrong...I'm a fan of SITC but the contents aren't suitable for many many children. If his daughter is going to camp - I'm thinking she's 10 - 13??? I can't even type the topics they talk about on most episodes!

Not to ever disagree with socalawd, but when I read this, I see more of a comparison to a Cadillac, not Maybach (except for 2nd row seating, which is "short of" Maybach).

IMO....Sienna has the best interior of any minivan, almost Lexus like in quality of mat'l, seams, quietness.

But nice fluff piece.

The rental clerk demonstrates the power sliding door and assures the skeptical Mr. Palmer, "It's the Cadillac of minivans."

Ten years on, it is Honda's third-generation Odyssey that can credibly claim that mantle. The paragon of its class, it is a van with features and passenger comfort comparable to what you'll find on all but the highest-end luxury cars.

The Odyssey, particularly in top-of-the-line Touring trim, rivals many luxury sedans in fit and finish; in entertainment options; in its interior quiet; and in long-distance comfort. The middle-row captain's chairs, which adjust fore and aft and side to side and offer a clear view of the nine-inch video screen, are as pleasant a place to spend a day on the road as almost anywhere short of, say, the back seat of a Maybach.

artgpo · October 2005

I am going to award that title to myself. Since 1983 I have owned:

1983 VW 9-passenger (very rare) Vanagon
1987 Nissan Van
1990 Pontiac Trans Sport
1994 Dodge Grand Caravan
1997 Ford Windstar
2003 Olds Silhouette
2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L

In between there were a some sedans, all Detroit iron.

My experience with the vans was that the VW was far and away the most roomy and comfortable but the worst piece of junk. If you remember, the entire production of 1987 Nissan Vans were bought back by Nissan under the terms of a safety recall because of engine fires, etc. You sat over the engine in that model. I had already traded mine before the recall. As I remember, I got a $1,000 certificate from Nissan good for the purchase of any other Nissan model. I sold the certificate online for $500. The Pontiac and Ford minis were very reliable. At the time, the Pontiac had the 34 lb. individually removable seats which made configuring a snap. We took a trip one time and removed the some seats. It was a great highway cruiser. I just traded my Silhouette for the Honda. The Olds had wonderful features but just didn't exude build quality. I had it for 51,000 trouble free miles but I did get tired of its squeaks and rattles. My family called the leather seats "Pleather" because they were so cheap feeling. I bought that van because it was a great buy and got 0% from GM. Never mind that it had the worst front crash test results per IIHS. The Honda is everything all the others are/were not: roomy, quiet, solid and peppy. It is just a well made mini and I can see why it has become the gold standard.

No, I did not forget my Grand Caravan. I got that van as the settlement of a customer arbitration award with Chrysler because the 1993 Dodge Intrepid I bought was a lemon. The GC turned out to be a bigger lemon. Two transmissions, a/c compressors, switches you name it, it had it. That turned me off on Chrysler for a good long time to come.

I travel a bunch with my job and frequently rent DCX minivans. While they are nice riding they are no where near the Odyssey. Anyone who makes the claim that a DCX van can compare with the Honda needs to be tested for substance abuse. Anyone who makes the claim that the DCX minis are a better buy needs to take Economics 101. In five years the $31,000 DCX will be worth $7,000 - $8,000 while the Honda with be around $13,000 -$15,000. I bought into that logic when I got the Olds. I bought a van with a $33,315 MSRP in October, 2002 and traded, almost three years to the day, for $10,200. A similar Odyssey would have brought about $16,000. Yes, I know, Olds went away but look at the Chevy and Pontiac models, they depreciated the same.

I hope some of you can take something away from my 23 years of owning minivans.

aaron_t · October 2005

Your math seems a bit off in your past paragraph, or you got scammed. Olds was selling that van for $12k off MSRP, so comparing depreciation based on MSRP is misleading.

Despite all your van experience, you fail to understand how automakers change. Mercedes, once tops in quality, is now bottom. Nissan low in the 80's is now very good. Very few managers and engineers work on the same product for more than 5 years, so I would not discount any manufacturer for very long.

jipster · October 2005

A good informative post arty....up until the point where you started calling anyone that does not agree with your opinion an ignorant crackhead.

It's great you think so highly of your mini...but many non ody mini owners think just as highly of theirs.

artgpo · October 2005

I called no one a name. I do not sink to that level in my posts. I believe I have the qualifications to make an informed opinion based on owning 7 minivans over the past 22 years.

As for being scammed, as was said in a previous post, I paid $27,800 for the Olds in October, 2002. Who was selling new Silhouettes at "$12,000 of MSRP"?

My research is usually very good when I buy except for failing to see the wisdom in buying a 2003 GM Triplet. I have no axe to grind. If I can give one person a bit of insight into buying smartly then I feel good.

Personally, I have yet to meet a satisfied DCX minivan owner. Granted I have not met too many, but all those I have met would never buy another, me included.

Until you have owned both DCX and Honda do even think about make a value judgment.

aaron_t · October 2005

This is not 1985, or even 2000. Owning a Nissan 20 years ago does not mean the Quest sucks. First gen Siennas and Odys were not very good either. Your experience with a 1994 DGC has no influence on what 2006 model van I would buy. Now, if you had a 2005 DGC and replaced it with a 2006 Ody, I'd give your experiences more value.

Who was selling GM vans at $10k off? Every one in Detroit in Summer/fall 2003. Ford just had $10k off 2005 vans this summer, and some people have gotten $10k off 2005 DCX vans in Dec 2005. if average Joe can wait until the next model year vehicles arrive and pays $5k less than one early in the model year, the early buyer takes a larger depreciation.

BTW, Hi! I'm Aaron. You've now met a satisfied Town & Country owner. However, I only have 8.5k miles on my van. In my 12 years or so of car ownership, I've had at least one vehicle from the of the following brands ranging rfrom 1978 to 2005 model years: Chevy, Honda, Pontiac, Mazda, Ford, Lexus, Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep. I would not discount any of the brands in a future buying decision.

Anyway, welcome to Edmunds Town Hall! Everyone should share their experiences and let the readers place their own value them.

hansienna · October 2005

Or the Yugo of Minivans? :P
Based on reading the noise problems with the Ody VCM and windshield noise, many readers would crown the Ody the "Yugo of Minivans".

artgpo · October 2005

Aaron,

Thanks for the welcome but I am not new as I have been posting on Edmunds for years. Most of the time I am a reader not a poster.

Past experience is a valuable tool. From what I read here on various boards things have not much changed. The Nissan Van of 1987 and the Quest of 2005 had loads of problems. Same goes for the others. My sister-in-law had an early '70s Civic that was trouble free. Honda quality remains high in 2005. I had a 1970 Corolla and did shop the Sienna before buying the Odyssey. I shy away from GM not so much for reliability but because of fit and finish issues. I stayed away from Japanese models for years figuring Detroit was a better deal but I am so over that sentiment.

These boards are a valuable tool but there is no substitute for personal experience.

I am happy for you and your DCX product. To each his own. Personally, DCX has seen the last of me.

badgerfan · October 2005

We bought a Dodge Caravan new in 1985 and kept it 12 years. Sold it private sale and bought a 1996 Caravan SE Sport in early 1997. We still are driving that one.

The 1985 did have some AC problems that were costly, and a few other niggling issues toward the last year of our ownership, but we were never stranded once due to mechanical failure. Sold it at about 79K miles.

The 1996 has done much much better than the 1985, even though it was a brand new redesign that model year. Again, the only thing expensive has been a couple of AC repairs. This one is now at 85K miles and still runs and handles like the day it we drove it home from the dealer.

So ,we bought 2 vans in the past 21 years and were relatively happy with the first one, and are still driving and very happy with the second.

Who cares about depreciation when you keep it 10+ years. None of them are going to be worth more than $2-$3k at that point, so initial out of pocket cost has much more impact to those of us who drive them a long time. Anyone who changes vehicles every 50K miles is throwing away a lot of depreciation cost.

Suppose I save say $3K in initial cost by buying the less expensive DGC minivan vs the Odyssey, and let that money compound at say 5% for 12 years. I have a nice $5,387.57 saved for my next vehicle.

Now you know of at least two owners who are happy with their DGC minivans.
With DGC's annual sales, I would say there are just a few more than two satisfied owners as well.

thegraduate · October 2005

Who cares about depreciation when you keep it 10+ years. None of them are going to be worth more than $2-$3k at that point

1996 Odyssey EX in Good condition : $6,310 private party value

1996 Caravan ES in Good condition : $4,180 private party value

Both cars from kbb.com listed with 100,000 miles, and top trim levels.

Both actually bring more than $2-3k, but the Odyssey brings approx $2,200 more after ten years. Keep in mind that this is the "wagon style" Odyssey with the 140hp 4-cyl compared to a V-6 Caravan. How will the more comparable vans (1999 and up) fare when ten years hits?

1999 Ody EX : $12,035
1999 GR Cara ES : $7,960

Both in Excellent Condition with 70,000 miles. If you keep the car 7 years, you have increased that spread to double the ten year spread.

socalawd · October 2005

Or the Yugo of Minivans?

Nope I already Had a 2001 Caravan. Thank you very much!!

Based on reading the noise problems with the Ody VCM and windshield noise, many readers would crown the Ody the "Yugo of Minivans".

Oh ya real good data there. You forgot there's some break noise too. As far as I know the people having a windshield noise problem are getting it fixed. As for the VCM noise I have no idea what they're talking about. I have VCM and so far no issues. It is a new design but if there is a issue I'm sure Honda will fix it.

Hans,
Here's your post from July 20th yeah right before you were gonna buy a GC/Ody/Seinna combo LOL.

Another reason I prefer the 2005 Ody EX (cloth) over the EX-L or Touring.
The first 2005 Ody (demonstrator) was a loaded EX-L with VCM. The VCM worked well and hard to tell when it activated or deactivated. Since they had sold the demonstrator (once the mandatory period set by Honda had expired), my recent test drive was in an Ody EX (cloth).
Living where winters are cold and summers are hot, we feel that cloth seats are more comfortable.

No mention of noise just it worked well!! I know you like to stir it up, with alot of unfounded information. Like 2005 Honda's all have tranny problems, just cause one person on the forum says they do. I have seen 2005 GC with tranny issues too. Does it mean they're all bad. Heck no these forums are so hit and miss you never know what your gonna get. The internet is great for fringe information. That why its a good place to sell obscure things. You can find the couple people in the world that think lime green gremlins are a work of art!! LOL

hansienna · October 2005

Suggest you read in the Honda Odyssey 2005 + forum to find out about VCM and noise problems the Odyssey owners are worried about. :sick:
Noise problem is reported in posts # 4452, 4454, and 4463. The VCM problem is discussed in # 4457, 4458, and 4460.
You have quoted correctly. I did not notice VCM noise nor any change when VCM went on and off in the test drive. I would not dare buy an Odyssey after reading about all the owner reported problems here in more than one "Odyssey only" forum. :mad: The Odyssey has more problems reported by owners in the past 6 years than any other minivan.

socalawd · October 2005

Suggest you read in the Honda Odyssey 2005 + forum to find out about VCM and noise problems the Odyssey owners are worried about.

I have not worried, and have none of these problems. I am worried about bird flu, mad cow disease, and global warming!! LOL

Noise problem is reported in posts # 4452, 4454, and 4463. The VCM problem is discussed in # 4457, 4458, and 4460.

Ok 4457 is a guy saying he thinks he hears something around 1500-2000 rpm 4458 and 4460 are people responding to him wondering what it sounded like. Wow sounds really bad. Of course your transmission noise of 2002 T&C LX sounds worse than that. Well, go figure I had that too on my Caravan!

The Odyssey has more problems reported by owners in the past 6 years than any other minivan.

Yes Honda owners do post more!! So of course more information would be there. As for reliability CR say that it is the most reliable minivan the last 6 years. I believe them over your look at the forums, the sky is falling senerio!

cyberdoc · October 2005

Where'd you find that statistic? Certainly not according to consumer reports reliability data. :confuse:

dustyk · October 2005

Maybe you didn't call anybody any names directly, but your comment was implicit and highly arrogant.

As for me I've known many satisfied owners of Chrysler mini-vans, and quite a few are on either their second or third. And as a past manager of a large fleet of Dodge & Plymouth minivans, I have a fairly high regard for them. Have they been perfect. No. Niether has the Honda.

Dusty

thegraduate · October 2005

I think we can all agree that derogatory comments about people who make alternate choices regarding cars should be left out of posts. I wouldnt buy a DCX, but someone who does isn't crazy. They just have different tastes or priorities. Nothing wrong with that. My own grandfather's sister (my great aunt) drives GCaravans (4 in 8 years now). She is a really sweet person whom I love very much. Not a crackhead. She wouldnt dare pay $30,000 for a van when she can get one for $23,000. Different priorities, different people, different vehicles to suit needs. Crackheads need not apply, whether you drive a Honda or Chrysler.

artgpo · October 2005

How many hundreds of thousands of Odysseys with VCM are on the road? So your theory is that six or eight posts constitute a model wide lemon?

How's this for silly logic: How come the Toyota dealers have a lot of 2005 left over Siennas and the DCX guys still have a bunch of '05 minis both after generous rebate programs? Can you find a left over '05 Odyssey? Any Odyssey rebates? I started shopping for a new van in June. I first test drove a Sienna XLE that the dealer had since March. Guess what? That particular Sienna is still there along with another from February. I am not knocking the Sienna or DCX vans, just pointing out some flawed logic.

hansienna · October 2005

Probably far less than one hundred thousand since VCM was introduced in the 2005 model :sick:
Remember that LX and EX (cloth) do NOT have VCM. :P
Just read in the Odyssey forums to learn of all the problems that are being reported by Odyssey owners and make your own decision. The many Odyssey owners reporting problems caused me to more seriously look at the Sienna or another DC minivan when I buy a new one.

artgpo · October 2005

This is the last I will say because I do not normally like to engage in debates: Take a look at the 2005 and 2006 Odyssey EX-L and Touring production numbers and you will have a accurate total of the VCM engines thus far produced. Say it is 90,000 (I expect it is a lot higher) and 50 people here complained, that would be .05%, hardly an epidemic.

thegraduate · October 2005

Our host has mentioned the faulty logic used here, before, as far as counting posts to determine a car's problem per vehicle ratio. If it were mandatory for every owner to post (dis)satisfaction with their cars, the number of posts would be a relevant number. Unfortunately, you cannot judge how well the VCM is holding up by how many people talk about it in one place. Stick with controlled surveys like Consumer Reports or Consumer Guide to give you an accurate ratio of problems per vehicle. :sick: Counting posts is an inaccurate judge because:

1.) You aren't going to get a fair sample of owners :surprise:
2.) You don't know the validity of the claims :mad:
3.) There are more posts responding to problems than actual problems listed :confuse:

I know that you, hansienna didn't really refer to counting posts, it was just the last post that I read, and related to it. Thank you for not falling victim of this fuzzy logic. I agree with your post when you say Just read in the Odyssey forums to and make your own decision. Customers should use this forum as a supplement to expert opinion, word of mouth, and personal taste. I doubt anyone in here would base a purchase entirely on one DCX doomsdayers opinion, or a Honda-hater with a love for Chryslers. Nearly everyone in here that is a regular poster does so with a bias. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that customers looking for advice should look here, as well as elsewhere to get a fair assessment of each vehicle. True?

artgpo · October 2005

I could not agree more. This board is a forum for people to state their actually experience. We have no way of knowing who might be a representative for a particular manufacturer or dealership so it can be hard to separate fact from fiction. Basically I think the people who post are honest and like to relate stories both good and bad. I personally scoured these boards when shopping for my latest purchase. This is something I have done since I first had an online service in February, 1986 (Quantumlink).

I drove a 2005 Sienna XLE. I thought the Sienna was quiet, comfortable and very well made. My wife thought it had a choppy ride. After driving the Odyssey we were sold and bought shortly thereafter. The Toyota is quieter inside but the Honda handles and accelerates better.

We had a rental Grand Caravan this summer for four days. During that time we put on about 850 miles. The van was acceptable but not nearly as nice as the Sienna or Odyssey.

Yes, it all comes down to personal choice. I know if I come on here and make a negative remark about the brand you just spend $30,000 on you might get ticked. Such is life.

dustyk · October 2005

"I'm just saying that customers looking for advice should look here, as well as elsewhere to get a fair assessment of each vehicle. True?"

If "nearly" everyone posting in here does so with a bias, what value are the opinions to anyone? So, no, I disagree.

The problems you point out regarding the validity of the posts I agree with. But if it's fuzzy logic to assume that the quantity of posts mean anything, then why are the opinions of those posting any more valid?

The problem with assuming the quality or reliability...or for that matter, the more subjective opinions regarding ride, handing, comfort, etc...is that the posts in Edmunds are unsolicited. Unsolicited surveys, like the opinions they're based on, are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. They are used because they're cheap!

This criticism also applies to Consumers' Reports.

What I have done in the past that has proved to be more accurate is walk-up questioning. This is an unsolicited survey in it's basic form, but it has proved to match my actual experience with our fleet cars and pretty much been on target with my personal experience.

Dusty

jipster · October 2005

Perhaps Consumer Reports should buy you a truck load of sneakers and hire you to do a walk-up questioning survey for them?

I think most people are biased to some degree in the vehicle they bought...and that is reflected in their posts...even yours dustyk....and yes, even on occasion the jipsters.

But, I think by reading posts and looking for certain themes or patterns one can gain a good understanding of quality and reliability. Look at the posts on the Kia Sedona board...those are usually quite serious in nature, compared to wind noise and other minor issues of other boards. One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant.

thegraduate · October 2005

One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant.

Very true, and good counterpoint to mine. I should have clarified the types of posts I meant when I said biased. Someone reporting a problem is different from saying that "my can has shinier mirrors than yours, your van is less of a van than mine! Ohh you got served!!!". Sorry for the foggy post.

dustyk · October 2005

"One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant."

Really!?

Five posts out of 100,000 vehicles manufactured is significant? Ridiculous.

Maybe I ought to trade you my truckload of sneakers for a couple of courses in statistics.

Dusty

hayneldan · October 2005

Consumer Reports challenges the belief that Japanese cars are generally made better than domestic vehicles in its annual reliability survey released Wednesday.

Vehicles that Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. makes at its new plant in Mississippi -- the Quest minivan, Armada SUV, Titan truck and Infiniti QX56 SUV -- are among the 48 least-reliable cars and trucks sold. Toyota Motor Corp.'s redesigned Avalon was rated with average reliability, lower than any of Toyota's other cars. The Acura RL, made by Honda Motor Corp., and the Honda Odyssey were also rated average.

"One time you would consider buying a Japanese car because you'd get excellent reliability, but now you're starting to see some nicks in the armor," says David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test center.

socalawd · October 2005

One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant

Yes you still have no idea whats going on. Heck on here the same guy could have written all 5. It would be great if we could walk up to enough people that have boght the same car and asked them what they had done. That just won't happen. So, I would hope that you would get the same kind of bais from people thats what makes CR more valid then these forums which people stumble onto and are totally annyomous. at least with CR the person probably owns that car and is giving close to the real information. Also the survey is pretty indepth. Now I wish that would give out more info like how about this(amiount of cars of the model for a year. And what type things went wrong, for example in the integrity. I could see huge amounts of people screaming about the glovebox gap. Also with Dodge the front brake pads seemed to wear pretty fast. Big deal 32K is fine with me on a big van with rear drums. Until dusty comes up with a walk up service that gets say 10% of the cars I'm going with CR. But if your able to do this Dusty I'll pay ya 15.00 a year for the service cause it sounds great!!

Claires · October 2005

I'm trying to allow a little latitude regarding the discussion about the value of these posts to potential buyers -- opinions are, by their nature, biased. Everyone's entitled to form his/her own opinion -- positive or negative -- and express it here.

But negative personal remarks only beget more of the same; they're off-base and drive the discussion off-topic. So let's tone things down and stick with the topic at hand, please.

dennisctc · October 2005

Suggest you read in the Honda Odyssey 2005 + forum to find out about VCM and noise problems the Odyssey owners are worried about.

Hans, I wanna know what this person has done to you!!! Why would you torture someone by having them read all the problems concerning the Odys?? I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad

but then they brought it on on themselves.

dennisctc · October 2005

Personally, I have yet to meet a satisfied DCX minivan owner. Granted I have not met too many, but all those I have met would never buy another, me included.

Until you have owned both DCX and Honda do even think about make a value judgment.

I'm a very satisfied DCX Minivan owner, I'm on my 3rd trouble free minivan. The first 2 were company provided stripo versions that I totally thrashed without issue! I have many many friends with them, my best friends back in PA are on their 4th (it's all his wife wants) since 1985!

It's a pleasure to meet you Art!

Ohhh btw I've owned a few Honda products......a Civic and Integra. The Integra goes down as the worst new car purchase of mine, some due to actual problems but also, it attracted accidents (like company mailtruck slamming into the side of it while parked one day!)

thegraduate · October 2005

"One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant."

Really!?

Five posts out of 100,000 vehicles manufactured is significant? Ridiculous.

Maybe I ought to trade you my truckload of sneakers for a couple of courses in statistics.

I think the think people keep missing here is that it isnt "five posts out of 100,000 vehicles", like you say, Dusty. I would be willing to bet that at least ten times that many (50) have never visited the site before, but still have a similar problem. Maybe 5 posts out of 50 posters have a similar problem. That would be significant.

Dusty, consider how many of us post here regularly? Maybe a dozen, tops. If I had a problem with a Honda power door, people say big deal, no issue there. But if two or three of us out of a dozen had a problem that was similar, then there is obviously an issue out there, beyond the few posters in this forum. Tell me when we have our 100,000th forum member that drives a DCX or Ody. I think he/she deserves a party.

jipster · October 2005

When speaking of the Ody vs DC minivans...yes opinions by their very nature are biased. The road noise coming into a vehicle may be described as minor by an Ody owner...but may be reported to be hurricane category 5 to the DC owner. And visa versa. Noise level, handling, ride etc. ...these are mostly opinion.

But, when you say something like "my engine caught on fire and my van blew up" or something similar...there is little bias in that...none. It is a fact. You have enough people posting that they have a similar experience...and it should raise some red flags as to whether someone would want to purchase said vehicle. These type of reported problems are not based on opinion.

I doubt that there are 100,000 Ody/DC owners here at Edmunds, as Dusty has suggested.(I'll be waiting a long time for that party) But, as the graduate indicated, we don't have that many Ody/DC minivan members here at Edmunds. You look at how many members are posting in that problems topic...then look for patterns and number of posts related to a specific problem. One should look at the various Edmunds boards and topics as one source out of many to consider when purchasing a vehicle.

Regards,

Jipster

socalawd · October 2005

I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad but then they brought it on on themselves.

Brought what?? Only thing I brought down on myself was a great vehicle purchase. Which everyone in my family loves. Sounds like quite a burden.

thegraduate · October 2005

Hans, I wanna know what this person has done to you!!! Why would you torture someone by having them read all the problems concerning the Odys?? I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad but then they brought it on on themselves.

Huh? What do you feel bad about? It's not a personal issue to me, not sure about y'all. Perhaps in the same manner, we should make hans sit and read the last eight years of Consumer Reports for DCX vans? Not making a whole lot of sense here(despite the sarcasm). Stop making these things personal, because I dont think hansienna was trying to, and you made it sound like he was. I dont have a problem with someone pointing out posts against my case. If there were none, why would we all be spending time in here?

dustyk · October 2005

"Yes you still have no idea whats going on."

Actually, despite being one of the unwashed defenders of something other than a Honda, I really do know what's going on. It's called sophistry.

"So, I would hope that you would get the same kind of bais from people thats what makes CR more valid then these forums which people stumble onto and are totally annyomous."

The "information" supplied by Consumers' Union about motor vehicles is no more valid than the comments in here because the only thing they could validate is the address of their subscriber. They do not and cannot validate ANY the information supplied by the individual. In this respect they are no better that the biased comments found in these forum.

"at least with CR the person probably owns that car and is giving close to the real information."

Incorrect. CR cannot validate they actually own the car. The information regarding what is owned by the subscriber is supplied by the subscriber and cannot be practically validated.

" Also the survey is pretty indepth."

Not really. Their annual surveys ask the make, model, and mileage of the vehicle. Then they ask to list "...any major problems." The term "major problems" is subjective as it is not defined anywhere on the survey. What may be "major" to one person may not to another.

"Until dusty comes up with a walk up service that gets say 10% of the cars I'm going with CR. But if your able to do this Dusty I'll pay ya 15.00 a year for the service cause it sounds great!! "

"Walk-up" surveys are referred to in the consumer research industry as "solicited" surveys. Don't worry about supplying me with a truck load of sneakers. There are a number of companies that do just that, J.D. Powers, Runzhiemer, Roberts Research just to name a few. So it is done and it done with regularity.

Dusty

dustyk · October 2005

No, you are missing something.

Five posts out of 50 would be statistically significant, but its not fifty cars, it's tens of thousand. Fifty posts out of 100,000 vehicles is not significant. The statistical analysis of vehicle quality must be measured against a sample percentage of the TOTAL VEHICLE POPULATION, not the number of posts. So the five posts are not a valid sample to determine anything about 100,000 vehicles, and if by itself is not statistically invalid, it is statistically irrelevant.

In addition, researchers know that unsolicited comments on surveys will generate the extremes in passion and hence biased. Researchers who develop unsolicited surveys generally perform a solicited component to determine a standard point as a reference in determing bias. Then the bias is factored out of the unsolicited survey. Consumers' doesn't do that and it most certainly isn't done in these forums.

Dusty

jipster · October 2005

Oh, here we go again with the statistical mumbo jumbo. Let's not turn this into another class on statistical analysis (which you have how many degrees in?) or Consumer Reports...I'm sure the burden would be to much for our hosts and other members.

Let's get back to Ody vs D/C...socolaud...dennistic...take it away.

dennisctc · October 2005

Count me out for the weekend....in Columbus Ohio celebrating Halloween

dennisctc · October 2005

(despite the sarcasm).

Sorry, guess it hurts when there's truth behind the sarcasm!

thegraduate · October 2005

No, you are missing something.

Five posts out of 50 would be statistically significant, but its not fifty cars, it's tens of thousand. Fifty posts out of 100,000 vehicles is not significant. The statistical analysis of vehicle quality must be measured against a sample percentage of the TOTAL VEHICLE POPULATION, not the number of posts. So the five posts are not a valid sample to determine anything about 100,000 vehicles, and if by itself is not statistically invalid, it is statistically irrelevant.

In addition, researchers know that unsolicited comments on surveys will generate the extremes in passion and hence biased. Researchers who develop unsolicited surveys generally perform a solicited component to determine a standard point as a reference in determing bias. Then the bias is factored out of the unsolicited survey. Consumers' doesn't do that and it most certainly isn't done in these forums.

Dusty

You know, I think you just made my point...Again. Thanks

thegraduate · October 2005

Sorry, guess it hurts when there's truth behind the sarcasm!

You need to read a post before replying to it. I dont have a problem with someone attacking something I am defending. I clearly stated that. Hurts? No...frankly, dennis is the least of my concerns. I'm not out here to "hurt" someone's feelings because their opinion is different from mine, nor can you hurt my feelings here. I think you can cut down on the macho games and talk about the vans. Count me out for a good chunk of the weekend. I have a 15 page paper to finish for tuesday, and a Philosophy exam on Tuesday, also. Now THAT, hurts.

socalawd · October 2005

Walk-up" surveys are referred to in the consumer research industry as "solicited" surveys. Don't worry about supplying me with a truck load of sneakers. There are a number of companies that do just that, J.D. Powers, Runzhiemer, Roberts Research just to name a few. So it is done and it done with regularity.

My brother in law is a site supervisor for a home builder lets call them Lennar(Since thats who it is) they do meet and greets with the condo phases they finish, and get this they pretty much tell them there bonuses are fixed to the surveys(which is the truth) and that they will take care of all there problems quickly if surveys go well!! Guess who?? a JD Powers survey. Who do you think provides JD Powers with a list of who bought there products, well mostly it's the Company who sold it. Now don't you think they could do a presurvey and find the people that are happy?? I know they do, I once worked for a company that moved up from 12th to 1st place in the VLSI awards by useing this stratagy, I was not happy!! SO, please don't tell me about how those things are run. I've seen them get tricked many times!! CR is way better than that. Why would regular people lie about what car they own?? Or what problems they've had there are very few people like the people on these boards, most just drive there car to work and don't think much about it. These boards are the most baised it didn't just show up in the mail!! These people(On Edmunds)went looking to tell other people what they thought! Heck there's even people in here who don't own a Minivan and just hate Honda or DCX products. Now thats crazy!!

socalawd · October 2005

Let's get back to Ody vs D/C...socolaud...dennistic...take it away.
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Well the seats are mighty comfortable in my Ody! JD powers gives the Ody 5 stars for comfort!!! Whatever thats worth!!

socalawd · October 2005

What I have done in the past that has proved to be more accurate is walk-up questioning. This is an unsolicited survey in it's basic form, but it has proved to match my actual experience with our fleet cars and pretty much been on target with my personal experience

Wow talk about the most baised of surveys go find people and then ask them questions from your point of view to satisfy your personal experience. How about I do a survey to find out how many times you said someone had a perceived intellectually/morally superior as a put down if they don't agree with your opinions?? I bet it happens in all sorts of forums, I for one never felt more superior by what I drive(heck its a minivan and a wagon LOL)!! This is one of the worst measurements of a persons worth. The people I admire most drive cars that I don't like, does that change my opinion of them NO!!!! Different people have differant tastes!! And I take alot of flak on the board for my pro Honda stance. The van had everything I was looking for VSC, comfort(purely opinion), good fuel economy, standard safety, good handling braking, good acceleration, bigger DVD screen, in floor lockable storage, resale value, and I even liked the looks better(again personal opinion)
Go look at both cars. Make a choice thats best for you. That's when you'll be happy with your purchase!

hansienna · October 2005

Agree 100%.

Odyssey seats are very comfortable for 7 people and I would prefer to ride on the 8th seat (middle seat of 2nd row) than in the rear seat of almost any current sedan.

hayneldan · October 2005

"Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opionion"

jipster · October 2005

Any data on low end Chrysler fleet sale vehicles are likely to be useless....as there is no basis for comparison.( You don't need a degree in statistics to understand that.) Unless, dustyk also decides to manage and oversee the fleet purchase of some Honda Ody's in the near future.

In a nutshell...though Consumer Reports survey is far from perfect, I would be more inclined to to believe data that comes from a team of highly educated degree holding statisticians...over someone who has managed a fleet of rental vans.

That said....would you please hurry back from that Halloween party dennistic.

I much prefer reading you and socalawd going at it than this current thread of stats,odys,C.R and sneaker wearing surveyors.

sebring95 · October 2005

For many years I was a Division VP of a major US corp and the vehicle fleet director reported to me. Spent a lot of time with that dept. in the beginning due to the tremendous potential to save money. We had approx. 2,000 vehicles at any given time and generally bought/sold 500 per year. I've looked at numerous statistics over the years (CR, etc.) and I generally give them very little credence. One persons major problem is someone else's minor problem. I can't make any type of determination based on a circle with a black/red dot through it. At least JD Powers does give you problems/100 vehicles which is at least a measurable number. BTW, if you look at the big picture even on long-term testing the difference between the best and worst is not much more than two service trips in 3 years. But again, even those surveys don't really give priority to major problems vs minor complaints. The Hummer H2 had a wicked JD Power rating, but reports indicated it was because the gas mileage was so low. Tells you something about the end users....but that's about it!

Overall, our vehicles were quite reliable. We found our savings in adjusting our service intervals. Seems (in the early 90's) the domestic models we were running couldn't keep a transmission beyond about 120k miles. We adjusted our service time from 140k miles to 120k miles and we saved a ton. We did some testing on Accords and Camrys and they did have lower maintenance/repair costs and maybe we could have extended our service intervals (it gets risky over 150k miles due to random failures...) however the GM, Ford, Dodge models had such aggresive fleet sales on the front end you would have to go at least 200k miles to really save money. That's why nobody typically runs the imports in their fleets. The $ drives the decisions. If that was the case for personal use, everyone would be driving a base model domestic.

I've personally purchased seven new vehicles since model year 2001. I've not received a single JD Power survey. Just something that's always surprised me. I don't subscribe to CR so I guess I won't be hearing from them!

I've been around car forums since the beginning of the net. It's funny because generally speaking I've not had many problems with vehicles that turned up on the forums. Oh sure, a few here and there, but never ALL the problems from forum complaints. So statistically, if nothing else, I would also have to rate forum complaints as unreliable for the most part. So far my experience with our '05 Ody is quite good and I haven't had a single problem as listed from the forum. I don't think I would have expected the DC van to be unreliable based on my experience with DC products. It's not the same quality of a vehicle, but it's also quite a bit cheaper for the most part so that builds into the buying process. If bargain was my #1 concern, the DC van is hard to beat particularly when you go for the more vanilla models.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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