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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited June 2011
    Well, if you don't put winter tires on the car, it will handle like junk no matter what it is. And the thing normally comes with summer tires which exacerbates the issue.

    http://editorial.autos.msn.com/listarticle.aspx?cp-documentid=1168211
    They say that less than 3% of U.S. tire sales are for winter tires. They tested a G37 with and without and the findings are surprising if you aren't familiar with these types of tires.

    Quote (MSN Autos):
    What About All-Wheel Drive?
    Often cited as the transportation cure for winter climates, all-wheel drive is far from a silver bullet. In previous tests, we've discovered that an all-wheel-drive vehicle with all-season tires can outaccelerate either a front- or rear-driver on winter rubber, but that's where the advantage ends. The additional traction of winter tires allows a two-wheel-drive car to outbrake, outturn, and generally outmaneuver its all-wheel-drive brethren. Of course, the unstoppable winter option that can impart visions of rally-driving heroism is the combination of all-wheel drive and winter tires, but possessing all-wheel drive generally sacrifices a rear-drive car's handling balance in the dry, adds a couple hundred pounds, and comes with a fuel-economy penalty. That's why our preferred choice is to buy a second set of tires to get through the winter


    Here's a video of all season vs winter tires:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

    So you should forget AWD and get a set of summer and a set of winter tires instead. If you live where you really get bad snow, that is.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Yeb, I hardly find just a RWD here unless I want a MT. 99.9% of the Gs are AWD in Philly.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I have plenty of snow experience. The awd on my subie worked flawlessly with all season tires in two feet of snow from the last few winters.

    I don't want to turn this into a debate on drivetrains and tires. But in the northeast there are a lot of cars on the road with awd.

    It easy to sit in LA and link to articles on tires and drivetrains. Why dont you spend a winter or ten in the northeast and get some practical experience with tires and drivetrains?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Heck, even going to Kansas City would do. Two winters with 40+ inches of snow each year switched me to 4WD in a heartbeat. No regrets.

    While it's all well and fine for people to keep giving ideas about how to turn a RWD sport sedan into a decent snow performer with better tires, etc., I can tell you that my 4WD vehicle outperforms my G35 in the snow, period.

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited June 2011
    Yet, you don't hear about people in Europe having problems with RWD Mercedes and BMWs being dangerous in the winter, do you? Winter tires are considered a normal thing in Germany and everyone uses them.

    It's really not the huge issue that most people on the boards here make it out to be. The way that people talk about it seems as if your car will instantly fly off the road, cash, and explode if you don't cough up the extra thousands for an AWD system.

    Proper tires and not driving like a moron can make it pretty much a non-issue and allow you to consider pretty much any car or truck for winter use. That video, btw, that I linked to was of a RWD BMW.

    Oh, and we do get snow in California. I didn't always live in So. Cal - there's tons of bad weather up in the northern parts of the state. And in all of that time, I never once considered what type of drive (FWD/RWD/4WD) the vehicle had when I purchased it. I adjusted my driving patterns and tires to fit the situation.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    I didn't pay thousands extra for my AWD vehicle, and I didn't see anyone allude that your RWD will fly instantly off the road. Just that AWD performs better.

    Ever live in Europe? I'm guessing not. I have. It's a bit silly to lump all of Europe into a single category, because some areas get almost no snow, but anyway... not everyone in Germany drives a RWD vehicle, and I'm not sure it would make international news if some of those who did had trouble in the snow. I will say that much of England pretty much shuts down if there's 2" of snow - could we attribute that to the prevalence of RWD vehicles in Europe? I doubt it, but that debate point makes as much sense as your point about "not hearing about BMWs/Mercedes flying off the road in Germany."

    As I said, talk all you want. We've had two RWD vehicles at the same time in winter, and 2 AWD vehicles at that same time. I'm going to choose the AWD vehicle in heavy snow 100% of the time, even if you tell me yet another time how RWD is a non-issue if you have proper tires and driving skills.

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, there are a couple of factors to condsider with AWD.

    Does it actually work? Most systems actually are only good for slow speeds and getting you unstuck from snow and the like. If the system transfers power back and forth and isn't engaged all of the time, it's useless for most bad conditions unless the power ratios are set up correctly. Most manufacturers get this horribly wrong.

    The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution. (0/100 under default conditions). It's basically fancy version of stability control in that it kicks in when it feels that it needs to, and from videos of the system in action that I have seen, it takes about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second for the computer's AI to actually think and respond.(not talking about theoretical published specs, but watching the wheels respond to an unknown surface and how they move back and forth)

    Too slow to be useful at normal driving speeds except to maybe lessen a skid or situation where you are already in over your head. There are numerous articles and videos out there about half-baked AWD systems, so I'll not go into this further.

    The other issue is cost - $1500 more and much more likely to break down as the car ages. Is it worth it? Probably not. It's certainly not full-time AWD like Audi and Subaru use.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution

    It may perform the same but I'll bet it doesn't react the same. What I want out of my AWD system is not to have to worry about powering through deep drifts. I want to be able to step on the gas gently and have all four tires partipate in gingerly moving the car without throwing it into a skid.

    With RWD with snows, gingerly is not in the equation. It doesn't matter whose system is better, I want the system to be just good enough so I won't get stuck.

    The ATTESA has been written up for the last several years as the best performance AWD.

    Come this winter I will find out.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Don't forget that AWD doesn't do anything for braking. It can get you moving in slick conditions, but to get stopped - well all cars brake on all four wheels.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I'll be sure to tell the tow truck driver pulling me out of a snow drift that he really doesn't need 4WD on his truck.....just get some snow tires. ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Don't see how your comment is relevant to my comment. :surprise:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Yeah.. as I've said numerous times before if you are THAT concerned with snow, just get 4x4 as it actually does work like it should. I can guarantee that my friend's 4Runner will outperform almost any AWD system on almost any surface.

    But of course, it's big, expensive, and eats lots of gas and all of that... And you can't use the 4x4 mode on pavement. Then again, you really don't NEED to given how well it drives.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I vote for a boat-car...imagine the possibilities.

    Plus safety...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Heh.

    Of course, I was being a little bit sarcastic there. :P But I think I also have a valid point in that if you are looking for a "luxury performance sedan", AWD is a minor concern compared to all of the other factors. Because the fact is that most of them will be RWD or heavily RWD biased anyways. You will need winter tires if you want to drive it during the winter months.

    It just makes more sense to spend the extra $1500 on a second set of rims and winter tires and just swap them every 6 months or so.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    None of these cars are being raced at nascar. Even the 750 comes with awd these days.

    Meh I would rather go for the awd instead of a second set of rims. Awd is more useful in more situations than two plus snows.

    10 years I probably would have been preaching being a purist. Now I just want to enjoy my ride and I don't care if I'm getting the last ounce of performance from it. Or if the awd system is front biased, rear biased, full time or part time. I just don't want to get stuck.

    As an aside 4 snow tires on an awd car can out everything a rwd car in slick conditions.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I'm with you regarding AWD. I've seen all the tests & read all the arguments. I know that a RWD car equipped with snow tires & all of today's electronic nannies will be lighter and therefore brake better & outmaneuver the exact same car with all season tires & AWD. 2 of my 3 cars ('01 Prelude & '10 TSX) are FWD and I equip them with 4 snow tires during the winter months. Do the snow tires provide phenomenal grip & awesome traction in the white stuff? Absolutely. Are they perfect? No.

    Changing over isn't that simple, nor is it cheap. My Prelude has a dedicated set of 15" steel wheels which the snow tires are mounted on. I store them where I work and have the changeover done by a "Fix-A-Flat" place up the block. They charge me $30 each time I changeover.

    I didn't buy an extra set of wheels for my TSX, just a set of snow tires. I have to jam 3 tires into the trunk and put one in the front seat. My Acura dealer charges $100 for a snow tire changeover that includes dismounting, remounting, & balancing.

    They don't plow particularly well where I live in Stamford, CT (10 miles from the NY State border), nor do they salt due to the high concentration of well water. This past winter was particularly bad, but I can see how AWD can and will be useful in the future.

    Every BMW & Mercedes-Benz that's not an ///M (besides the X5 M & X6 M) or AMG, 6, Z4, SL, or SLK is All Wheel Drive that I see in NY & CT.

    Besides, my mere average driving skills won't let me squeeze the all out performance out of a RWD, SP Equipped BMW anyway.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I was commenting on the jist of the whole conversation.....not your particular comment.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    OK, understood, no problem! I'd agree that a tow truck ought to be 4wd!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    Actually.... most tow trucks are 2WD...

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  • thewolf49thewolf49 Member Posts: 1
    edited August 2011
    Hello all,
    I'm new to the forum and I need some help choosing a used, two to three year old sedan, that has some power behind it. I'm looking at:

    2008 Acura TL
    2009 Nissan Maxima
    2012 V6 Mustang
    2009 Honda Accord Coupe (AT)
    2008 Infiniti G35
    2010 Nissan Altima 3.5 SR

    Please consider reliability and maintenance costs for these vehicles when making suggestions. I want this car to last. You guys on this forum know tons more than me when it comes to this.

    Please feel free to make suggestions as to which cars I may be forgetting about in my search.

    Thanks!!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    I realize the above post doesn't fit 100% here, but I didn't want it hanging out there all alone in a separate discussion where no one would find it. I figured you'd all be helpful enough here.

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  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited August 2011
    My pick of the group would be either the Acura or the G35. The Acura will be bulletproof from a reliability standpoint, as are all Hondas, plus which the '08s don't have that horrible beak that started the following year -- very nice looking car. I'd probably be driving a TL Type S today if the rear seats folded down, which they don't. As a result, I have an '08 TSX that I really like, except for the fact that the wrong pair of wheels is being driven, which brings us to . . .

    The G35. I've had great luck with Nissan over the decades, and lots of people enjoy the G series. Rear-wheel-drive has a number of advantages in a performance-oriented car, but the engine in this guy is the same one they use across the board, from the Pathfinder to the Z-car. It's a bit thirsty and noisy I'm told, but solid as a rock. Our '04 Pathfinder has over 106K miles on it and has had absolutely no issues at all beyond a couple of little things related to the parking brake.

    Enjoy your search. All cars these days are so much better than they used to be that it's pretty hard to go wrong.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    2008 Acura TL
    2009 Nissan Maxima
    2012 V6 Mustang
    2009 Honda Accord Coupe (AT)
    2008 Infiniti G35
    2010 Nissan Altima 3.5 SR


    TL - I have an '05 and it has been bulletproof for 111K miles. Not a fabulous handler, it wallows a bit in turns. Lots of power but some torque steer (automatic tranny).
    Maxima - no experience. They're kind of rare around here.
    Mustang - less refined, which can be good or bad. Not so sure about long term reliability.
    Accord - probably very reliable
    Infiniti - sporty, narrower interior, powerful but growlier engine. Should be reliable.
    Altima - no experience, probably a good car, but maybe cheaper interior?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You can't go wrong with any of them. Get the one that you like best.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    I tend to agree - the RWD options are going to offer a different driving experience, so you'd have to test drive a few to see if it's for you. In fact, they're all quite different, but there's not a "bad" choice on the list.

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  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    I currently drive a 04 Infiniti G35 AWD and my wife drives an 07 G 35 AWD. Both are great cars. They handle very well on dry, wet and snow pavements.

    My daughter owns a 09 Accord and I would also rate that highly. My other daughter drives 2010 Altima, 4 cylinder. Both are very reliable and handle well for front drive vehicles. Neither handle as well as the G35s.

    I've owned a TL and an MDX in the past and had transmission problems with both. Acura still has many transmission issues. They are front wheel drive and while not as bad as some FWDs, they handle a bit jittery. You can't beat rear wheel drive cars like the G35s. The Gs only revert to all wheel drive when it detects slippage.

    The Maxima is a nice car but is front wheel and also is a bit jittery in the handling dept. Very reliable.

    I would rate the cars you listed in this order: the G 35, the Altima, the Accord, the Maxima and the Acura TL dead last.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I'd add another one to the short list - a Holden Commodore (Pontiac G8).

    Great car. Basically a working man's CTS without the bling and silly styling. Since GM ditched Pontiac (since the car is still made in Australia, repairs aren't an actual problem).

    I'd say a used CTS as well, but there's no point in getting a used CTS when the Pontiac is almost the same thing.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    I had the RWD-only version of the G35. While I rate it among the best vehicles I've ever owned ($0 in repairs, only regular maintenance til it was totaled at 108K miles), the RWD version was about the worst vehicle I've ever owned for anything but a dry day. I'd only recommend it for heavy snow areas if the owner were driving mostly on major roads, and/or had a great set of snow tires.

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  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    As a G8 GT driver [ 2009 - over 40,000 miles, so far ] and having driven a number of CTS sedans [ including a couple of CTS-v sedans ] I see the G8 as lacking much of the ‘luxury’ aspect I think most people expect in this class. The CTS has a more luxurious interior than any G8. And more luxury-oriented options [ in-dash navigation, for example ] are available on the CTS.

    Comparing the G8 GT’s power and acceleration and handling - the ‘performance’ aspect of this class, the G8 GT is far superior to any [non ‘v’ ] CTS that I have driven.

    YMMV.
    - Ray
    Seduced by power and torque, once again . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The original poster did have the Mustang and the Accord v6 in his list, though, so I think the car is fair to add to the list. And it's certainly a very good vehicle. I drove a G37 and this just a day apart and the G8 was simply a better vehicle all-around. Much better though out and just more solid.

    Comparing the G8 to the Mustang, as much as I love the new Mustang, the G8 is far superior.
  • pr2azpr2az Member Posts: 1
    Considering and comparing 2012 TL, C300 and G37X. Based on performance and reliability what are the general impressions and thoughts. Should we be considering another vehicle as well? This would probably be a lease.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    How 'bout the 3-Series BMW?
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    The run flat tires are a deal breaker for me. I recently drove the 328xi and the X3. Both were very nice.

    Most posters say the run flats are loud, expensive, and do not handle as well as non run flats. Most dealerships and tire stores do not stock run flats. If you get a flat tire, you can drive it 100 or so miles but it then must be replaced, not repaired. If you are several hundred miles from home, especially on a weekend, you will be stranded for up to 3 days waiting for the expensive tire to arrive at the dealer or tire store. You can change the tires to non run flats, but the storing of a spare could be problematic since no space is alloted for a spare.

    I would rate the G37 first of the ones you mentioned. Great handling, good looking, and very reliable. The TL would be the last vehicle I'd buy. I've owned 2 Acuras but never again. The C class is nice but reliabilty problems are a concern.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited August 2011
    I like the G37X, but the horrible mileage is tough to live with. My G35X could never get above 21mpg.

    I'm curious, though, why the G37X vs the C300? A closer comparison would be the G25 vs C300 or C350 vs G37.

    Personally, if AWD is a must, I'd be looking at the S60, too.

    No big, heavy FWD sedans for me.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Infinitis are what your say, and I would add so-so gas mileage and loud engine ("exhaust note") from a start, to the point of being intrusive.....still overall not a bad choice If I were to acquire a new or late model Infiniti, I'd lease rather than buy though.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    It all depends on your driving style & what is important to you (performance, style, interior comfort, features, trunk space, rear passenger space, driving dynamics...). Especially if you are leasing, all the cars you mentioned will be covered by their respective factory warranties for the duration of your lease (& probably beyond). Reliability should pretty much a non-issue.

    Mercedes has been running some insanely cheap lease deals lately. Especially on leftover 2011 C300 4Matics (the most popular C around here).

    I'm a pretty big fan of Hondas. We own 3. Yes the TL is nose heavy & is front wheel drive, but Acuras drive pretty nice. They are "sporty." They are far from floaty, but very comfortable. Interior appointments are fantastic, it offers generous front & rear accomodations, a decent sized trunk, lots of tech for the dollar.

    Im curious as to why the OP is checking out the G37 as opposed to the G25 as well. The G37X is a bonafide road rocket. You get 326 hp and a proper RWD chassis. Even though the X denotes AWD, it is still RWD most of the time. Infiniti has some seriously good factory backed leasing. Coupled with a $1000 dealer incentive (not customer incentive) & 2% holdback, you can lease one very cheap.

    How good is the G37X? I'm trying to convince my wife that we should dump our perfectly good 2010 TSX (bought 8/29/09) with 39K miles and 3 years left to payoff so I can lease the G37X & save $100 a month as opposed to driving the TSX until the wheels fall off.

    Definitely check out the BMW 328i. The 3 series is a fantastic driver's car. Very sharp reflexes. Excellent driving dynamics. It is a little tight in the back seat & the trunk is tiny too.

    Good luck & keep us posted with what you get.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    I would agree that the mileage on the G 37 is not great but you are driving a forced induction muscle car of sorts. On the expressway, I get 23 mpg.

    We have a 04 G35X and a 07 G35X. The exhaust on the 2004 is definitely loud but I hardly notice the exhaust on the newer 2007. I notice the exhaust more now that I replaced the tires with Michelins on the 04. There is a clear difference in the newer Gs re the exhaust sound. You may not even notice the exhaust on the new Gs.

    I will probably buy an EX35 soon. I want something small with folding seats. Some consider this a G37 with a little more storage. The EX is something to consider even though it is technically not a sedan but the smallest crossover on the market. Infiniti has some nice incentives now.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    it is not forced induction, FYI. Forced induction means supercharger or turbocharger, of which the G37 has neither.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    You are correct. I misspoke re the forced induction. I've read numerous posts re forced induction mods on the G.

    I guess I meant to say that the G is a beast even without forced induction which several competitors use such as the BMW 335.
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Member Posts: 232
    Not driving a 3 series because of the tires is ludicrous.

    Get an 08 or 09 335i.
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    The abilities and liabilities of the tires are pretty important to most.

    There is no room for a spare in the X3 if you switch out the tires to non run flats.

    The interior of the current 3 series is very dated but the X3 interior is a huge improvement.

    There are many posters on the BMW sites that do not care for the run flats, although some do like the fact that they generally won't have to change a flat tire. Getting stranded if you are out of state is a big concern in addition to the noise and poorer handling.

    That being said, I love the handling of the current 3 series. I actually considered the E91 until I saw the interior. It also has run flats.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I totally understand about those BMW run-flats. All the German companies are ruining their cars...

    I was all set to get a Porsche 911 until I noticed that the passenger side windshield wiper arm was an inch too short. :cry:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You do realize that there are these places called "tire stores?"
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Hey fedlawman! Good to see you are still around my friend.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    I checked several national tire stores in my area and none stock the runflats. According to several posters on the BMW sites, most dealerships do not stock them.

    So if you don't travel out of state you're ok with the run flats.

    I guess you didn't do your homework researching this. Please go ahead and buy a car with run flats. Take some reading material with you if you go out of state because you may get stranded.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Who said anything about buying run-flats?

    Replace the run-flats with a proper set of Michelin Pilot Sports.

    Buy a donut spare or a can of fix-a-flat for the trunk.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You too NYC!

    By the way, don't get the G - too much of a lateral move from the Acura, IMHO :blush:
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Me too...what's up with the Germans...

    I was all ready to sign for my new 911 and they didn't have a license plate holder...I turned around and walked out.
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    I may have mistakenly thought you were advocating run flats.

    Another poster implied that German car companies other than BMW use run flats often. In fact, few other than BMW use only run flats. Porsche had them years ago on the 959.

    This site has arguments both ways for the run flats but the majority of these owners are against the use of them http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/06/run-flat-tires-.html

    I considered taking the run flats off a new X3 if I purchased one but there is no convenient place for the spare except taking up space in the smallish space behind the rear seat.

    They are loud, do not handle as well in the opinion of many, cost almost double, do not last as long and if is difficult to find them in stock.

    Car makers should make the run flats optional.

    I like the G37 of all the fine cars mentioned here. It's probably the least expensive, has the great VQ engine, is good looking, handles well, is reliable, and is rear wheel drive (or all wheel drive). The ride of the TL is a different type of ride which I do not like. I've owned several Acuras but will never even consider these again due to their ongoing transmission issues.

    My second choice would be a current 3 series but I would ditch the run flats as soon as they wear out.....probably around 15,000. I'd replace them with Michelins. The donut spare could fit in the trunk.
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    Your Porsche "analogy" is weak and poorly researched.

    None of the current Porsches come with run flat tires.

    I wonder why this German company stopped using them?
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