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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "Poor rear visibility; awkward driving position."

    If those are your 2 primary concerns, i would
    very strongly urge you to try for yourself -
    as these both can be highly subjective -
    and will often depend on your size, weight & build.
    I rented a CTS a few years ago, and did not
    find big issues with either of these aspects.
    - Ray
    YMMV
    2022 X3 M40i
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dude not too sure what you been smoking, but you have some info.

    First the TSX is a European Accord, not one from Japan.

    The IS and Corrolla have NOTHING in common, first the IS is rear wheel drive and has a V6, the Corrolle is FWD.

    The First Gen IS is known in Japan as the Altezza.
    The 2nd Gen is not sold in Japan

    The G37 and 370Z are not the same car. They share some of the FM platform but that is about it, the 370Z wheelbase is about a foot shorter then the G37s.

    The CTS is a great looking car but is not screwed together very well. The Resale value of the CTS is horrible, about 45% after 3 years. The IS, G37 and the TSX are between 51 to 55% after 3 years, BMW has the highest resale value.

    Regarding service, BMW has 4 yr or 50K miles bumper to bumper maintence as service on thier cars. My 2005 330i needed a new clutch, fully covered under BMWs warrenty, can't do that at Mr.GoodWrench..

    the CTS is not the same size as the E class or 5 Series, the CTS is inline with the 3 series. Regarding the Nav system in the MB, which model are you talking about?

    Before coming on to a public forum and giving false into and trying to be a expert, get your facts correct...
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    edited September 2011
    Specifications Comparison
    Cadillac CTS vs. BMW 3-Series
    Model Year 2011 2011
    Model CTS 3-Series
    Body 4dr Sedan 4dr Sedan
    Wheelbase 113.4 108.7
    Length 191.6 178.2
    Width 72.5 71.5
    = = =
    Specifications Comparison
    Cadillac CTS vs. BMW 5-Series
    Model Year 2011 2011
    Model CTS 5-Series
    Body 4dr Sedan 4dr Sedan
    Wheelbase 113.4 116.9
    Length 191.6 193.1
    Width 72.5 73.2
    2022 X3 M40i
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    "First the TSX is a European Accord, not one from Japan."

    I went to Jamaica on vacation and saw the TSX badged as an Accord, does that make it a Jamaican Accord? :)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The CTS is a great looking car but is not screwed together very well.

    That's putting it lightly. Even the Edmunds long term CTS tester became a rattle trap galore with parts falling apart in its first year. I've found that to be typical with domestic vehicles.

    It drove OK, I much preferred the Acuras, Infinitis, Audi's, and BMW's.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    How does BMW's 4 year, 50k mile maintenance warranty deal with such repairs as brake pads and rotors? Has anyone had them replace things like that during this period?

    Brake pads and rotors often require service prior to 4 years. Does BMW typically pay for repairs such as this under this program. Or are their services usually limited to oil changes and/or major repairs?

    How difficult is it to obtain what they might consider discretionary repairs such as brakes?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Pads and rotors are included, if needed.

    The rear brakes on our first 3-series went at 30K miles.. no charge..

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Commuting in and out of New York (before moving up here to New Hamster) my BMW went through both front and rear pads and rotors in a little over 30,000 miles; both were replaced under the warranty.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Brake pads & rotors are included. The only thing not covered are tires.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    My 2005 BMW 330i has the ZHP package and I beat it hard on track days, this is the reason for clutch replacement, and yes, front brakes too. My BMW dealer did not blink and eye when I brought it in for service. I still have the car, and bought the extended 2 yr, 50K warranty.
  • trdsc2trdsc2 Member Posts: 4
    I purchased a 2011 335d in April and still have questions about why it doesn't have certain features that are described in the owners manual and what models they are included on.
    As far as I can see, I only have 2 power outlets, 1 in the console and the other under the glove compartment...which 3 series models have them in the trunk and dual outlets on the rear of the
    console, facing the back seat passengers? I also wondered why seat back cargo nets are still
    offered on some 3 series vehicles and not on others and why there is no electronic compass on
    the mirror if you have the navigation package, or why the heated steering wheel is deleted if you have the M Sport package.....All this does not make much sense.
    If anyone has answers, let me know.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    kyfdx....how's that new Z4 driving?
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    He LOVES it! His wife HATES it! He thinks either his neighbor or another poster on the board is going to assume the lease.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    That pretty much covers it...

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    If the neighbor doesn't assume the lease, he might assume the wife. :P
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    All things are possible..

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    First - Cadillac did sell a BTS in Europe which was 3 series sized and priced, but it sold only a few hundred of them. The CTS is actually their middle model in the lineup if you look at their entire global Cadillac lineup. They just wisely decided to not sell the smaller one in the U.S. It's is more akin the an E or 5 series. Which isn't too surprising, really. It's bigger, it's heavier, and it's not really designed to be a 3 series competitor.

    As for reliability, my parents have owned a standard model with the smaller 3.0L engine in it and it's been flawless. Not a single problem at all in the first year that they've owned it.

    And even if something does go wrong, it's a lot less than a Mercedes to fix.

    Lastly, yes, I know the Japanese companies play around with names and so on, but the comments are all too true. The G37 does share enough DNA with the Z that it's just not possible to hide the fact that it's a modified Nissan Z. And The IS, while it's not *exactly* based upon a Corolla, it's small like one and shares a lot of the same designers behind it. Kind of how a Buick is well, a Buick, even if they come in different sizes. ;)
  • mortiennemortienne Member Posts: 30
    "And The IS, while it's not *exactly* based upon a Corolla, it's small like one and shares a lot of the same designers behind it."

    Based on that logic, the Austin A40 my parents had when I was a kid, and the Ferrari Daytona are similar because they share the same designer. And of course, the current range of Bentleys are just glorified VWs. :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Not too sure what you are smoking too, just because the the Z and G share some of the same platform they are they are the same car... They both handle and drive completely different...

    Just because the Lexus IS is slightly bigger then a Corolla doesn't mean its the same car, again one is FWD the other is RWD, one has a 4 cyl and the other is a 6 cyl...
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Seriously, who cares what a car is called in another country or "badged" as. I never understood people's fascination with what cars are offered in other countries that they don't even live in. All that matters to us here in the US is what is offered in the US and what we can really compare things against since that is what is offered.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I think you better get off your rocker and go out and drive the cars your talking about because it just sounds like crazy talk. A G37 drives and rides completely different from Z, not to mention the fact it has two extra doors on it, duh, and a Corolla completely different from an IS. Just because a luxury company has a parent company does not make their stuff crap.

    We go by that logic then Cadillac's are glorified Buick's as they both share platforms. Because a car shares some components with another does not make it look or behave like one.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Some Cadillacs *are* unfortunately glorified Buicks. Charging the sheet metal on the exterior or playing with the doors and so on doesn't change a thing for most of these cars.

    They toned down the suspension on the G37 and added some leather, but it's still a pretty plastic interior and drives more akin to a muscle car than a real sports sedan. It's great in a straight line, but that's about it, really.

    Is it entry-level luxury? I'd say not. It fails that half of the equation, because almost every car these days can be had with leather and NAV, and so you have to look further and be a bit more discerning in what exactly "luxury" means aside from leather and a high price tag.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    .............Based on that logic, the Austin A40 my parents had when I was a kid, and the Ferrari Daytona are similar because they share the same designer. And of course, the current range of Bentleys are just glorified VWs.

    Therefore, SEATs and Skodas are cheaper, but better built, VWs. Audis are dearer VWs and Lamborghini, Bugatti and Porsche are merely faster VWs. Jaguar and Land Rover are merely upmarket TATAs and Ferrari and Maserati are very quick, and expensive, Fiats. Rolls Royce ? Upscale BMWs. Vauxhall/Opel/Holden ? Rebodied GM-parts bin cars.

    Once you get past the SEAT, Skoda and Audi brands, (which basically are re-worked VWs), the logic falls apart pretty rapidly; although there are some component commonalities in amongst the others and their brand-owners mainstream offerings. Way of the world and none the worse for it.

    By the way, I learned to drive in an Austin A40. Nice little motor, for its day.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Really, I've felt the same way about the Cadillacs as you do the G37. The interior quality and the fit/finish is still not on the same level as some of the Japanese and German makes.

    Funny though how the 3-Series is constantly compared to the G37 in comparison tests. I guess the BMW is a muscle car too, lol. If the G37 is not an entry level luxury sedan than the CTS is most certainly not. Except for the BMW which I felt had a slight advantage over the G in handling off the highway, no Caddy handles better than the 3-Series or G37 do at their price range. You want sports luxury, get a BMW, Infiniti, or Audi, plain and simple.
  • 22332233 Member Posts: 64
    I agree with you 100% that great sports/luxury sedans are limited to Audi, BMW and Infiniti.

    I test drove a couple of 3 series cars yesterday. It felt similar to a G37 but it seemed more tossable on curves and maybe a little more enjoyable to drive.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The 3 series is now a muscle car. The 1 series is as close to the original sport sedan ideal as you'll manage, these days.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The 3 series is now a muscle car.

    You do realize that you are probably the only person in the world that thinks that don't you?
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    That is most likely the silliest thing I've ever heard. You keep telling yourself that ;)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited September 2011
    When you could get a car the size of a Crown Vic back in 1965 that weighed only 3000lbs, with maybe 2lbs of plastic (knobs and so on) and the only aluminum in it at all was in the engine block itself, yes, we've come back to the 1970s all over again.

    At 3500-3600 lbs and a wheelbase that's just under two inches shorter than a Buick LaCrosse, the current 3 series is a bloated pig that's nothing like the older cars from the 90s. Which could still be called sport sedans.

    What we have flooding the marketplace now are very heavy cars with big 300HP+ engines and long wheelbases. This is the definition of a muscle car, or it was back in the 60s and 70s.

    2006 Buick LaCrosse
    External dimensions:
    198.1 length
    73.0 Width
    110.5 wheelbase
    turning 35.8 ft
    curb weight (lb) 3495 lbs

    2011 BMW 335i sedan
    External dimensions:
    181.9 length
    70.2 width
    108.7 wheelbase (only 1.8 inches shorter)
    turning 36.1 (larger? Wait - a FWD *Buick* turns better than a RWD BMW?)
    curb weight: 3605 lbs. (heavier than a Buick?)

    1991 BMW (E30 series)
    170.3 Length
    64.8 Width
    101.2 wheelbase
    turning 34.5
    curb weight: 2900 lbs

    Something's gone horribly wrong in the last 20 years. We're now content to call essentially Buick-size and weight muscle cars "sport sedans". :sick:
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Not too sure what people are smoking on this board, but first off the 1 series is a couple or Convertible not a sedan. Regarding muscle car, that is a tough term to nail down. One could say the 335i is a muscle car 300hp 300 lbs of torque. The M3 could be called a muscle car too, 400Hp V8. But I don't think BMW would classify their 3 series as a muscle car.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dude, the 3 series has grown in size granted, but the current 3 series is a far better car then the E30 series ever thought it could be. Its faster, handles better, stops better and it far better in ride.

    I love hearing people talk about how great the 60s muscles were, they were pigs, they were slow and they couldn't stop to save lives.

    2011 Mustang GT V8 makes more HP then a 69 Mustang Boss 302, faster then a Boss 302, and gets better fuel mileage then the 69 Boss 302.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "the current 3 series is a far better car then the E30 series ever thought it could be. Its faster, handles better, stops better and it far better in ride."

    It's also soul-crushingly boring compared to the E30.

    The E30 is a driver's car. The current 3 is a grocery getter.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited September 2011
    The new cars are "better" in some ways, but they are simply not as good on mountain roads and zipping in and out of traffic. They weigh too much and their wheelbase is too long. They are simply not anything like the original sport sedans which BMW and Volvo made in the early 70s that created the whole segment.

    It has gotten so bad that BMW was essentially forced to make the 1 series to remain competitive. The 1 series is at least pretty close to the E36, which is barely passable. A bit heavy, but workable with some weight reduction tricks and some aftermarket tweaks. I put the specs for the older E30, though, because it's really the benchmark for this class. Which every manufacturer seems to have simply ignored in the race to have more and more power. (same as the "Big 3" did in the 70s with Muscle cars).

    Heavier than a Buick. That's just sad and as long as BMW keeps making cars that are heavier than rental-fodder Buicks, well, my comments about them being muscle cars stands.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    edited September 2011
    the question, regarding Buicks, has to do with what happens when one has an "incident" on the autobahn at 135 mph. The Germans are pretty good at analyzing the mess after wrecks of this sort, and making appropriate adjustments.

    The U.S. regs address a whole different series of things, mostly having to do with fools who don't follow directions (side-impact, anyone?, or how about air bags to protect morons who won't use seat belts?), while the Germans assume people who drive know what they're doing. They just do it at high speed.

    When the two are combined, Porky the Pig results.

    What fun! Is it any wonder that most of the people who write articles and participate in the BMW club magazine (Roundel) drive older cars?
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    All this old car new car stuff is getting boring- move on and get use to the new stuff or keeping driving in the nineties.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    My conclusion of you is you haven't driven the cars in which you bash. I think you like to hear yourself ramble on about things you have no first hand knowledge.

    As someone who had some of the "true muscle" of the 60s and 70s and currently drive a muscle car of today. I will never buy the older cars again, the cars today are much better put together (again I have first hand knowledge on this subject) they are faster, stop better and handle better.

    So until you have first hand knowledge of the subject you talk about its all rambling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    wow...

    the most disturbing part is 20 years has gone by since 1991...
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    That idea only stands in your head, no one else's or the auto industry. If you using weight as a big determining factor there is more than just that to classify a muscle car vs a sports sedan. They are sport sedans, every car magazine with a review about them call and classify them as such.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited September 2011
    I wonder why you test drove the Acura TSX but not the Acura TL. I am no expert in this field, but it seems to me the TL probably compares "better" to an Audi A4, BMW 3, Cadillac CTS and Infiniti G (etc, etc). After having owned 29 Audis, I sent emails to dealers requesting quotes on an Acura TL "advance" AWD, an Audi A4 Prestige with sport package, an Infiniti (also with several packages including Sport AWD), and a Volvo S60 T6 with several packages to make it comparable to the Audi/Acura Prestige/Advance packages. I was planning to make my decision based on the best deal I could get on any one of these.

    Although I did look at a TSX, it seemed a step down from the others I mentioned at the beginning of this post -- not a bad car, but more in line with an Audi A3 or perhaps an Infiniti G25 or a more basic version of some other car lines aspirational cars.

    A point is that, to me, all of the cars in this class were contenders and I drove all of them (excluding the MB, why I can't recall). Three of the cars stood out as high performers (four, actually, but I'll get to that in a moment): the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, the Audi A4 Prestige with Sport package and 8-spd Tiptronic and the Volvo S60 T6 with several packages to increase its lux content levels to that of the Audi and the Acura. The fourth car that didn't make it to the finals was the G37X S -- a car I wanted to want, since I am so impressed with my wife's 2011 FX35/Premium (to say nothing of the $1,000 loyalty bonus).

    The G didn't make it because it seemed so much smaller than the rest. I later figured out why -- it is less than 70" wide, and it just seems cramped from behind the wheel. The TL, for instance is 74" wide and has a 63.8" track compared to the G's 60.2" track.

    I made my decision, after 29 Audis in a row, based on price per month. I was ready to take (and I wanted) an Audi A4 first, the TL second and the Volvo third. I test drove the heck out of the cars (and I currently have a 2009 Audi A4 Prestige Sport) and determined that the Audi remained my fave (but, just barely, as the other two were very close.) Yet, both the Acura and the Volvo were so much more powerful and actually seemed larger than the Audi, which was a plus since I often have my in-laws in the back seat.

    When all was said and done, the Audi came in nearly $200 per month higher for 6 months longer than the Acura and the Volvo was about the same as the Audi but for 36 months to the Audi's 42.

    I took the lowest cost alternative -- and since it came in with the Advance package it is, MSRP wise, about the same as the Audi, but has a 305HP engine, although it lacks the Audis 8 speed transmission.

    Having tested and previously having owned an Audi S4, I came away thinking the Acura TL SH-AWD (what a mouthful) was "somewhat closer" to an S4 than it is to an A4, and for $11,500 less with similar content.

    Sorry for the long story, but I think you should have at least tested the TL, it is a completely different car than the TSX, and seems like it would be less likely to be cross shopped with an A4 or G37, etc. The TL, on the other hand at $47,000 with "the works" is about the same price and class as the A4 and G37 (and the CTS for that matter.)

    In any case, in the entry level sport luxury class or whatever this is, most of these cars are winners. :surprise:
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    edited September 2011
    Something else that needs to be considered with the TL are its controversial looks which most do not like and the fact that, at least with my, and many others experience, they develop numerous squeaks and rattles and the interior seats show wear prematurely. Maybe this latest TL iteration is improved with regard to those issues, however.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "the most disturbing part is 20 years has gone by since 1991"

    The E36 came out in 1991. The beginning of the end... :cry:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The TL I was referring to is the 2012 which underwent a nose ectomy, a butt ectomy the addition of a bunch of sound deadening and a delightful 6 speed auto. It is, now, better looking -- not an Audi mind you -- but better looking without the BEAK.

    I am, at this point, unable to comment on squeaks and rattles and premature seat wear. Are your comments based on personal experience? A couple of people at my office have Acuras and their primary comment about the cars is "they are incredibly durable." Also, at this point, the retained value of the TL is among the highest of any vehicle -- hence its terrific lease programs. I got mine which listed for $47+K with one accessory, back up sensors, for $499 per month for 36 months plus tax.

    If money were no object, I would get an Audi S4 Prestige with the Sport Diff (torque vectoring). Since money is an object, well, I went with the Acura which seemed like a very high value.

    I'll let you know if things start rattling and wear out prematurely.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Mark - thanks for the in depth, detailed write up. Congrats on your new TL! Enjoy it for the next 3 years until you get your next Audi.

    Fedlawman - If it wasn't for the E36, I might have never fallen in love with BMWs. The 1st BMW I ever drove was a close friend's 1995 E36 325is with 5-Speed Stick, Sport Package, & he told me he was able to get it lowered further from the factory (individual?). It made me feel like Superman behind the wheel.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited September 2011
    Ah, first love! I understand. My first BMW drive was my uncle's E30 325i. Plastic seats and 5-speed stick. Love at first drive.

    I very much like certain things about the E36 too. I love the VANOS I-6 - it is so smooth and sweet sounding. And the comfort and amenities are a big step up from the E30.

    And for the record, I think the TL is highly underrated on this forum. It may not be the best at anything, but it does so many things so very well.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Yes, the E36 is somewhat acceptable as well, since with some tweaking, it can be pushed back to 3000lbs. Add some more modern rubber and a few tweaks like beefier calipers and so on and it's pretty nice.

    What we have now is symptomatic of the bloat-until-it-assumes-the-previous-one-size-larger-model's-place progression that seems to infect all of the makers now. This is also identical to what was happening in the 70s. Bigger and bigger and oh my word that's a huge car all of a sudden...

    The 1 series is kind of like a E26 V 2.0 in its weight and size. It's what I would consider a sports sedan, if a bit on the heavy side.

    But what we have now as the current crop of cars are really big bloated grocery hauling machines that just are called "sporty" because they are the smallest whales in the pod and happen to have shiny rims and big wheels attached.

    That said, the TSX simply doesn't belong as it's just a plain vanilla "Accord" to the rest of the world. Over here, they slap Acura badges on it and raise the price. It's front wheel drive, has a plain vanilla 4 cylinder engine, and the handling is, well, standard family car. It's a NICE car, but it's not proper luxury OR proper sports.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    And for the record, I think the TL is highly underrated on this forum. It may not be the best at anything, but it does so many things so very well.

    Agreed...i liked the 'old' BEAK (think I'm the only one :) )...it had flare.

    Plus I got the SH-AWD to over-steer...so it could be persuaded to have fun too.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Mark- a man after my own heart, congrats on your excellent choice in value, style and performance.
    I have the 2009 with the beak and butt, 25 months later and 13k miles-zero squeekes, zero seat wear and all compliments.
    My salesman keeps sending me emails in regards to a swap for the 2012-NO THANKS, the 2012 IMHO is too soft-appearance wise.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Has anyone noticed that people are actually bigger now than they were twenty years ago? Look at high school football teams. My god they are huge. I think carmakers have responded to some degree. Granted many people are heavier than they should be but the actual frames of each subsequent generation is larger than the previous. Add in all the safety crash protection in the frames, larger brakes, airbags, sunroofs, power everything and it makes for more size and weight in cars.

    Some may not hear it but weight isn't the only thing that matters in a cars drivablilty.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    edited September 2011
    Since money is an object, well, I went with the Acura which seemed like a very high value.

    Welcome aboard! I've been driving a TSX for 3.5 years and enjoy it quite a lot, except for the pair of wheels doing the propulsion. Mine is a pre-beak edition with a manual transmission; don't much care for the styling after the '08s. The original concept was to drive this 3-4 years, then trade it for the diesel TSX, but mostly due to CA pollution regs, it didn't come to pass.

    You came close to getting that M35 (or was it 45?) a few years ago; I'm stunned that you actually pulled the trigger this time. Hope you're pleased with it. I lack the "Princess & the Pea" sensitivity to many things that those who populate this board (or who did before it went dead) possess, but haven't noticed any issues with rattles or wear on the leather.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Not too sure of I follow your logic on the G37, just because it was smaller doesn't mean its not a sport sedan. I would think the G37 has more interior space then the A4. I looked at the A4 (mid level) I like it but thought the G37 was bigger.
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