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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I've never driven a Jetta GLI so I can't comment on it. I think it's (a lot) smaller than the TSX and doesn't have as many amenities and has a less refined driveline though - not a near-luxury segment car. I do really like last years cockpit lighting and layout though - very upscale for an economy car.

    The TSX weighs less than any version of the A4 Audi makes. It's also lighter than the G25 and IS250. And Honda's I-4 makes similar power to both of those competitors V-6 motors.

    The TSX is also the epitome of a smooth refined driveline. The switchgear/cockpit ergonomics and quality is maybe a notch below Audi but certainly as good as or better than Infiniti, Lexus, and BMW.

    Plus, if you do own a 2004 6MT TSX, then you know the joy of revving that Honda I-4 up to 7400 RPM - only BMW's legendary I-6 is as satisfying to wind up.

    And talk about keeping pace - the TSX has soldiered on with the same specs for 8 years and Infiniti comes out with a brand new car that offers a mere 17 more HP and weighs almost 200 lbs more?!?! Acura must be doing something right to inspire Infiniti and Lexus to build such close competitors.

    Every car in this segment has an Achilles heel. The TSX is the least expensive car here, and it offers a lot of ELLPS for the money. But if you want more than 200HP, then obviously it's not the right choice.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Govt mpg mandates have a lot to do with why Infiniti and soon BMW are taking down hp. I dont think it has anything to do with acura inspiration. Now I know the tsx offers little more then you can get in a standard accord except an extra year on the warantee and an acura badge, sure it has nice leather innards but the ergonomics are subject to personal taste. , As edmunds stated in the article the gli slightly beats it as a sport car. I know the sweet vtexh and it's great action manual (whicjlh I hope stays)- but the tsx has only gotten fatter over the years - with no power boost - 90% of them are automatics and it's currently sitting in a stale stable. I'm looking for a recent article that mentions this car as being a sports sedan, one published in the last 3 years.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "Now I know the tsx offers little more then you can get in a standard accord except an extra year on the warantee and an acura badge."

    You forgot to mention that the TSX is physically smaller inside and out and has a 4" shorter wheelbase. It has a higher compression engine with a higher redline and 10 more HP. The TSX also has a beefier rear sway bar, high performance tires, sport suspension, sport seats, and a 6-speed MT.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "2 car and driver articles -- again the acura in the middle of the pack vs cars that are not considered lux cars."

    Some TSX quotes from your first link...

    "Such a treat to drive this car after herding some of the others around the course. So much more certainty, so much more precision." "This is a case of all the parts working together—quick responses, crisp steering, excellent brakes, minimal body roll, and it's all so easy." "Just brimming with confidence. Even on a long, dull interstate, you can feel the athletic tension of the chassis, all ready to burn up some twisties. Bravo!"

    "As much as we love this car's precision, refinement, and athletic nature, every story we've published about it has made some sort of apology for its relatively modest power... But in this comparison, the power shortage was costly."

    Your second link features the V-6 TSX, which is a nose-heavy, numb-steering pig. Not the car I'm talking about. They said it themselves...

    "The TSX V-6 is a smart cookie that just needs to lighten up a little. Which is code for, “Stick with the manual-transmission, four-cylinder TSX."

    So it looks like Car & Driver agrees with me. The 4 cylinder TSX with 6MT is the jewel of the Acura lineup and a superb ELLPS.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited October 2011
    beefier rear sway bar and all season highperformance tires-ok in other words things you can get at your local autozone.. sport suspension well thats subjective and no where on the acura website does it say sports suspension.

    the car and driver articles you mention did not bash the TSX but they did say the other cars were better given its middle of the pack results. 2 vws and an accord were considered better cars for the price, ELLPS hahaha. I agree that with you that its the jewel of the acura brand-- but that brand includes the RL and ZDX :confuse:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well, if you really believe that, then you can't be taken seriously here.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    ??
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    So you seriously believe that the Accord and Sonata are ELLPS's?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2011
    You know, I remember the discussion when the TSX first came out in 2003. Back then, it was the Mazda6 owners who challenged that the TSX wasn't a "luxury" car and the Mazda6 was superior because it had "similar amenities" and a more powerful V6 (a recurring theme...).

    Well, there is the difficult to articulate quality of precision, refinement, and craftsmanship that the TSX possesses in spades that more pedestrian cars lack.

    All you have to do is sit behind the wheel of the Sonata and you immediately know it is an economy car. One drive and you instantly feel that lack of chassis and driveline refinement.

    The Accord is another beast altogether. The Accord is arguably "luxurious" enough to compare with the bottom of the ELLPS class. It does lack some features expected here like Xenon headlights, driver memory settings, etc., but more importantly, it lacks a sporting character. It is a big car - softly sprung with flat seats. The precision and refinement are there, but it doesn't have the dynamics of a sport sedan.

    Yes, you could go online and get summer tires, sway bars, springs/struts and make it a handler, but then what you would have is a large, slushbox equipped, harsh riding family car (Last year, I equipped my Volvo with Bilsteins and know first-hand what a disaster that was!).

    So why try to shoehorn the Accord into a category it wasn't designed or suited for when Honda already makes a car that is the epitome of the ELLPS segment? A nimble, fun, refined sedan that has a terrific engine and gearbox with a modicum of luxury?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited March 2008
    i never said that- but I did say the TSX should be moved from this group- it has not "advanced" with the rest of the group and in comparison tests it gets beat by "lesser" cars - in 2003 it was a player but that was 9 years ago.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I agree that it hasn't advanced in horsepower, but I don't think that alone defines this class.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    HP alone no - but what have they done to improve on the early TSX? more lbs, a v6 that no one buys, a sportwagen, lets not forget about the 5 speed auto.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I actually like the older TSX a LOT better than the new one - heavy, numb, and bloated like how all Hondas and Acuras have been heading lately.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2011
    I agree. But how is BMW any different?

    The 328i is the same E90 introduced in 2005 (MY2006), only it has 15 more HP and weighs 100 lbs more. It is eclipsed in HP by several cars in this segment, but it soldiered on. Why? Because it sells.

    It is the entry point into BMW luxury and prestige. For Acura, the TSX is the entry point into the ELLPS segment. And it sells - warts and all.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited October 2011
    the current tsx has also gained in weight vs the 2004-2008 model-- how many lbs well 150-- it also lost 4 hp somewhere and gained gained 8 lbs of torque during that time period. So from what you presented BMW is different --yep they added HP and weight, not vice versa. they have also tweeked it a bit since the last refresh-- and are due for another one in 2012 prob a reason why it sells...would love to see a post of something that can merit the agrument besides the fact that you own this car- one time..-a comparo test or a current write up about the sport you talk of.. it was a long time ago when they started this ELLPS blog.. maybe its time for an update with current players-- And it sellls? well it sells better then any other Acura for sure infact its almost half of all acura sales at a total of 32k units for 2010, that is in the us, canada and mexico -- but bmw sold 100k (us only sales) 3 series cars and infiniti also sold 58k of the G series (US ALONE). So i think the warts are showing more then you think.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    There are so many cars out there that aren't fantastic at one thing, they don't look good on paper, but they are great cars to drive. My TSX is one car that falls into that category. It's 201 hp 4 cylinder is not going to win any stoplight or out of a toll booth race. You really have to drive a TSX & a V6 Accord back to back. They "are not" the same car.

    You seem to be a "car guy" and you know that a factory tuned suspension upgrade is so much better than one you can piece together from autozone or any various Internet site. It's like some people who say "why do I need to spend $XX,XXX more for an M3 (or S4) when I can just chip my 335i (or A4 2.0T) for $X,XXX and get just as much or even more power?".

    There's also a company out there that makes a bolt-on supercharger for a V6 Mustang. It makes the V6 good for 475 horsepower. If you were in the market for a Mustang, would you buy a 5.0 GT or a V6 and get it supercharged? I'll take the V8.

    I'll agree with you and fedlawman that the TSX V6 is a nose heavy pig. I personally don't think it needs to be in the Acura lineup. A V6 TSX has a sticker damn near a FWD TL & Honda puts crazy $4000 cash incentives on the V6 TSX to sell it. I have the sane gripes with C&D regarding its
    electric power steering. The original TSX was a smashing success for Acura. I think the 1st year they only expected to sell 15,000 units. How many did they sell that 1st year?

    You have to remember that us enthusiasts are a sliver of a small percentage of the market. I believe the 2 main gripes (from the general buying public) were the small-ish back seat & modest
    power output. They made the car bigger (adding weight) and added a V6 option (whic doesn't sell well & adds weight & torque steer)

    Anything the "tuner crowd" says Acura should use from it's parts bin will ruin the car's driving characteristics & appeal. "Give it SH AWD" adds weight, cost, & complexity. "Give it the 4cyl Turbo from the RDX" adds cost, complexity, & weight. Not to mention torque steer as well.

    Part of the TSX's charm & appeal in this ELLPS segment is it's price point which it gets from being built on an Accord platform (or being an Accord from the rest of the world), it's 201 horsepower 4 cyl engine, 5 speed automatic transmission (you want a 6 or an 8 speed auto, that'll cost you too), low weight, the fact that Acura even OFFERS a slick shifting 6-Speed manual transmission.

    Try walking on to your local BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus dealer and tell me how many 3,C,A4,IS have MSRPs under $40,000. Yes I know you can order your car any way you like it. Acura gets you into the door of this segment.

    Like fedlawman said, drive it against an IS250 & G25 to tell me it isn't competitive and doesn't belong. Ive never driven a G25, but have driven an IS250 AWD (high 90% of sales in the northeast) & it's 201 horsepower V6 accelerates about as fast as a Toyota Yaris. The TSX's base 4cyl is lively & happy to rev all the way to it's 7,000 RPM redline. I can tell you it has a certain Germanic ride quality to it. Very solid and extremely stable on the right side of 80 mph.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    acura does offer a Manual in both the TSX and TL which i think is great.. but less then 10% of total cars sold-- mainly because the real car drivers are not shopping acura -- OR they would sell more to the real sports fans-- pretty simple-- how many of those TSX leases out on LONG ISLAND are leased with manuals, NYC carguy?? If you want a BMW you can order a base 328 or 128 with a manual and it will outperform this TSX in every way. No one is talking about the tuner crowd here or even the IS or the G25, infact if you were watching last posts you would see the jetta and accord are now comps. We are talking about a car that has not changed in over 10 years except get bigger and heavier thus killing its sporty nature which is why it was in the EELPS but no longer should be considered.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited October 2011
    acura does offer a Manual in both the TSX and TL which i think is great.. but less then 10% of total cars sold-- mainly because the real car drivers are not shopping acura

    Just what percent of BMWs, A4s, C300s, Gs etc etc are sold with manual trannies? I'm pretty sure it's very close to the percentage you attribute to "non-sports" cars. Just because they are offered doesn't mean that they sell that many. I think I read somewhere that even BMW is only about 10% sticks. I don't think that manual transmission buy rates should be the determining factor as you keep saying over and over and over again. I also know some pretty darn good car drivers that don't drive sticks for a variety of reasons and certainly not because they can't drive well.

    As far as the TSX goes, there has to be a entry point to this category and one person is hardly the authority. Edmunds, when comparing to the GTI, said it wasn't as good a sport car or something like that. But, they did put it in the same category.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited October 2011
    ok but again where is the proof that this car should be here- anything published besides your thoughts would be of great value- the car rags or anything that can substanciate your claim- lets be serious here- the TSX is a great entry level car for someone who is looking for value luxury not sports sorry..

    i love the fact that you guys are defending this once great value but again when compared to its true comp its not really the value it once was. Now if you include acura as a brand behind this car it validates my claim - they are nowhere when it comes to sport. They are behind every other major comp in almost every category and have been happy for years being an OK (middle of the road) company.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited October 2011
    A better question would be why do you have such a vendetta against it? Acura, as a brand, may have gone astray of some their sportier past models but that doesn't change the TSX that much at least any more than other brands have grown and gotten heavier. Acura is a luxury or a near luxury brand. TSX is it's entry level offering and it's a sedan. The only questionable operative word in the title of this thread then would be performance which is somewhat subjective. So for you to set the bar is quite assuming it seems.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited October 2011
    is this ever going to end?

    People who own or have driven the 1st gen TSX seem very pleased with it. One or two people who haven't seem to have a near-psychotic problem with it.

    It's just a car. These days anything with a manual transmission is 80% of the way to being a sports sedan. There aren't many anymore.

    The last time I remember things getting this weird was when there was a board on here called "BMW 5-series or Pontiac Grand Prix GTP," where people who were totally invested their personal opinions went on for years (well, maybe it was months, but it seemed like years). There was a GM fanboi who just kept on and kept on and kept on.

    Oh well. . .
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited October 2011
    well the board is to talk about Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans which I feel and have shown by reviews and sales figures that it does not belong here in its current state. Others have given personal thoughts but nothing concrete on why it belongs here- i like facts over subjective comments to prove a point.

    and i'm spent.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ok but again where is the proof that this car should be here...

    Trying to prove a subjective judgement is silly. And citing car magazines (which are also subjective judgments) isn't much better. The fact that we aren't sure means it should probably be IN the discussion.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    ok then why when comparisons are done by the major car mags and even edmunds is the TSX grouped in with lesser cars? your right that is silly
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited October 2011
    ok then why when comparisons are done by the major car mags and even edmunds is the TSX grouped in with lesser cars? your right that is silly

    Well post 12200 said that facts are better than subjectivity. And all of this is subjective. Wouldn't the sensible way to approach it be to INCLUDE a vehicle if a high fraction of posters (subjectively) think it should be included? There aren't any "facts" that clearly put this vehicle OUT of the discussion, and for any "facts" one might cite, others could cite similar "facts" about different vehicles that would exclude those, too. :surprise:

    What is silly is that this forum is for just discussions. It's not like anybody has to love any car or buy any particular car. :blush:

    And by the way, I also feel the TSX is bloated and soft - not all that sport or luxury. But I don't see why it can't be discussed.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    There really is no subcategories of this class, such as premium, performance, etc. This category is made up of all the entry-level luxury offerings of the luxury manufacturers which are the vehicles edmunds has listed here, they just titled the thread wrong. It should be just entry-level luxury sedans, which the TSX falls into.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I can agree to that change.

    The problem is that the sport sedan has really been replaced with the "Hot Hatch" segment in Europe and almost none of it has been offered in the U.S.

    Small, nimble, fast, and luxurious. Tons of choices in Europe in the hatchback and B class segment. Almost none over here. We get big and heavy luxury vehicles instead.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    ok but again where is the proof that this car should be here

    It's right up underneath the title, where we put it...

    This discussion is about those listed cars... not whether someone thinks they belong there...

    So...lets get back to it...

    thanks!
    kyfdx

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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    A large percentage of any of these cars are leased. You can't go by the manual transmission take rate to decide whether or not any particular car belongs in this category. The take rate for manual transmissions in the USA in general is probably less than 10%.

    People lease for 4 reasons:

    Business reasons where they can take some sort of tax deduction.

    They can afford to & like to be in a new car every 2-3 years.

    Leasing is used as an alternative method of financing that works quite well if you can live within mileage limitations.

    People lease to get a more expensive car at a cheaper payment. Many of these people do not understand leasing and shouldn't be doing it.

    There are tons of leased TSXs, TLs, 328s, 335s, A4s, IS 250s... among others in my area. I WAS nyccarguy a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. I fled the city back in '04 for Westchester County & moved to Stamford, CT last year. Not Long

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    edited October 2011
    Some details:

    Day 1 – Friday 16 Sept. – delivery & drive to Krimml, Austria:

    We cleared customs and collected our checked bags without incident. Service on the flight was excellent, and the food [ 2 meals ! ] was quite good. [Lufthansa A340-600.]

    We met Rolf [ retired BMW employee ] at the designated spot and he drove us [ in his BMW Diesel Wagon ] first to the local BMW dealer in Munich and across the street to acquire several excellent local maps and the toll vignettes [ stickers ] required in Austria and in Switzerland, then delivered us to the Welt. Just in time to watch the 11AM ‘motorcycle on the stairs’ show. Interesting. Rolf charges a very reasonable fee, and it was great to just try to sit back and relax [ after a 6.5 hour flight from Boston ] while he drove and talked.

    We filled out the required paperwork and the customer service rep. recited a list of potentially useful information – most of which I had seen before on various forums. He was quite efficient and cordial – and answered a few of our questions. The reminder about ‘no right turn on red’ was quite handy – as this was something I had to keep reminding myself about all trip long. And I was cautioned again that Switzerland traffic police allowed no violation of their speed limits – period. Noted.

    We had about 45 minutes until our scheduled orientation and background presentation, so we sampled various goodies in the “Premier Lounge”. Very nicely done & convenient – high above & overlooking the vehicle delivery area.

    We had our presentation [ fine, nothing spectacular – for me ] and went to see the car. The customer service rep. pointed out various features [ this is my first BMW ] and set various preferences [ KM vs. Miles for the trip, etc. ] and we were on our way. [ pictures ]

    Actually just had them park it for another half hour or so, allowing us to peruse their gift shop briefly and pick up a few food & drink items at their café, for the afternoon drive.

    They certainly treat you well and the process is well thought out - and we enjoyed the experience. We could have also done a factory tour and \ or the BMW museum, but I had decided not to do those this time, based on our priorities & our schedule.

    I had rented a GPS \ Navigation system with appropriate maps, and the first use was to help me drive out of Munich and onto the A8 heading south and east. Worked well here – and several other times, as well. Here it was quite helpful in showing what lane[s] to be in before approaching turns, etc. once on the Autobahn, I was quite well behaved, speed-wise - even on the few unlimited stretches of this highway – breaking in the new motor & all.

    My daughter was quite tired and dozed off as we left the A8 and headed straight south on A12 \ E45 \ E60 toward the Austrian border.

    The navigation system routed us differently than I had expected, and I did not realize it immediately. It also re-routed us a few times around what it saw as traffic congestion [ there was none ] so we were a couple of hours later than expected arriving at the B&B in Krimml. A lovely B&B within sight of the Falls. Had a very good dinner in their restaurant – beer brewed on-site, met my daughter’s approval - and we went to bed.

    = = =

    Day 2 – Saturday 17 Sept. – Krimml to Verona, Italy

    There had been rain overnight – and there were wispy clouds around the area – with thick overcast. [ pictures ] We had breakfast at about 9 and headed toward the Falls. We actually drove past the Falls and up to a couple of overlooks [ start of the Gerlos Pass \ Alpine Road – pictures ] and then drove back down to park and hike in. The sun came out brilliantly as we started the trek.

    The hike up to various views of the Falls was fairly steep, but the scenery was quite spectacular. [ pictures ]

    After we finished the hike, we stopped at their café for coffee and an apple strudel. Excellent! We stopped back in the village to just stroll around for a while, just enjoying the ambiance.

    Then we were off – heading up to the Gerlos Pass. The sun was out and we stopped several times to just enjoy the views. Just after passing the summit [ and paying the toll ] we pulled off at a tiny [ closed ] ‘kiosk’ and scenic vista – lovely lake and glaciers above. [ pictures ]

    Descending, there was just no where that I could pull over \ off the road to safely stop. And the road demanded attention. The views were often stunning – and the road was in excellent shape [ as were most roads we encountered in Austria ] and I just needed to pay attention. My daughter really enjoyed the views!

    Heading back north toward the A12 \ E60 we encountered some sort of festival [ in Stumm or Fugen? ] that involved cows with elaborate ‘headdresses’. Unique in my experience.

    And we stopped at a McDonalds for a quick bite of lunch. Odd to see their take on menu, etc. And my daughter bought something [ delicious ] from a trailer parked in the lot next door.

    We hit the highway, toward Innsbruck, turned south and crossed into Italy. This is where we encountered the first real issue of the trip. I had not done sufficient research to realize that the area from before Trento to Verona was as industrialized as it was. My bad. I had expected to be able to simply [ ? ] pick an exit off the highway and find a hotel or B&B to stay for the night. This turned out to be a very bad idea. Long [ and winding = narrow switchbacks, in the dark ] story short: We finally asked a toll-taker at an exit in Verona for a recommendation at about 9PM, and stayed at a hotel just off the highway. Very basic, small rooms, but adequate & inexpensive.

    = = =

    Day 3 – Sunday 18 Sept. – Verona to La Spezia

    We had a surprisingly good breakfast at the hotel and then headed south, toward La Spezia. This drive was relatively uneventful, until it started to rain. The highway was well worn [ tire ruts ] in spots and even with brand new Michelins, there were times when I felt it prudent to slow somewhat. And the GPS \ nav again became confused – taking us on a more circuitous route [ even narrower and more winding ] than necessary from La Spezia to Pitelli. Really, really narrow streets. Cars parked on either side. Raining. Not confident of the Nav system’s routing – somewhat stressful. But we did arrive – and not too late = 4:30 or so in the afternoon.

    After settling in, we asked about a place to have dinner. A few mis-communications and assumptions and much walking later [ and rather wet ] we managed to have pizza at the only place in the village that was actually open at about 6 or 7 on a Sunday evening.

    It rained, often quite hard, and was quite windy until 3 or 4 AM. Then cleared and calmed.

    = = =

    Day 4 & 5 – Monday & Tuesday 19, 20 Sept. – Cinque Terre

    continued...
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    edited October 2011
    Day 4 & 5 – Monday & Tuesday 19, 20 Sept. – Cinque Terre

    I had decided early on [ for several reasons ] that we would park the car at the B&B and leave it there until we left on Thursday. We took a bus to La Spezia and then the train to each of the villages – bus stop right across from the B&B.

    I will not detail everything here. Suffice to say that the scenery and the town buildings are everything we expected, and even more! The color of the water was striking – and the surf generated by the overnight storm added interest and texture. Beautiful. [ pictures ] The high temperatures were a bit warmer than is typical for this time of year all 3 days – but cool each morning, for breakfast outside on the deck.

    We had gelato each day we stayed here. In fact twice one day - outstanding!! The lunch each day in the different villages was quite good. And the sight-seeing was just amazing.

    = = =

    Day 6 – Wednesday 21 Sept. - S. Terenzo and Lerici.

    The woman who runs the B&B where we were staying suggested that we would enjoy spending some time walking through these two local villages. We did. Interesting architecture. Beautiful old church – castles – lovely. And we had a very good lunch right at the harbor. I’m guessing we walked over 4 miles this day – much of it up and down the hills. But worth every step.

    Day 7 – Thursday 22 Sept. – La Spezia to S. Bernadino, Switzerland

    Despite our prior experience, we decided to try the same strategy that had blown up in our faces before – meaning: look for a place to stay for the night, off the highway, once well into Switzerland.

    Circling around Milan to the southeast, we headed toward Como. Again, the vistas were lovely, but safely pulling off the road to stop and really enjoy them was problematic.
    [ pictures ]

    At one point [ perhaps near Chiavenna? ] my daughter noted that one of several waterfalls [ dropping hundreds of feet from the peaks on either side of he road that wound up the valley floor ] looked like we might be able to exit and drive back to see it somewhat closer. She was correct [ that happened a lot ] and it was well worth the slight ‘detour’. [ pictures ]

    We ended up staying at an exquisite little hotel in San Bernardino. Just before the entrance to the San Bernardino tunnel, this a tiny old village – primarily geared to skiing. We were ‘off-season’ and the town was very quiet. The water in the creek running through town was clear. The air was crisp, cool and clear. Just lovely. We had excellent fondue for dinner in the hotel’s restaurant and slept well – enjoying the fresh mountain air – at over 5,000 feet elevation.

    Day 8 – Friday 23 Sept. S. Bernardino to Memmingen, Germany

    We had another excellent breakfast [ more wonderful bread ] at the hotel and headed north. On the Autobahn [ 96 \ E54 \ E43 ] approaching Memmingen, I had my one opportunity to briefly explore the outer limits of [ my experience in ] LEGAL, very high speed driving. A break in traffic [ Friday PM ] allowed a quick blast to 135+ MPH. Exhilarating. But traffic again intervened and I was back to 100 – 115, or so on most of the unlimited sections. This was also the case the next day, Saturday, going to the Munich airport – generally able to hold a steady 100, with a few blasts to 115 or so – then back to 100. Holding 115 MPH for a few minutes at one point was quite satisfying. Being passed while doing 100 MPH by Porsches [ and others, but most often Porsches ] clearly doing 140, 150 MPH or more was quite an experience as well!

    We arrived in Memmingen in time to spend a few hours exploring the old city area, town square, churches, etc. We ate dinner at the hotel - very good.

    Day 9 = final day – Saturday 24 Sept. – Memmingen to Munich Airport and fly back to Boston

    We slept well, until a local, nearby church rang the “100 o’clock” bells. The ringing just kept on and on – at 7AM. Oh, well – time to rise and shine. Another very traditional breakfast at the hotel, an hour or so at the farmers’ market in the town square [ best looking produce and fruit I have ever seen ! ] and we packed up for the last leg of our journey. We drove to a car wash, then to a final fuel stop [ ended with exactly the quarter tank the shipper recommends ] and drove to the airport to drop the car off, and [ after waiting in several lines, including 2 security checkpoints, since we were flying to the US ] we flew home without incident.

    A few overall impressions:

    This was a wonderful trip. It is hard to describe the feeling of driving for miles through what looks like the biggest postcard in the world. Large areas of both Switzerland and Austria were absolutely magnificent and spectacular.

    Cinque Terre was all we had hoped. We spent 2 full days exploring and enjoying all 5 towns and it was amazing. The other 2 small villages we visited near the B&B on our third day there were a charming surprise as well.

    The times I was stressed were mostly a result of no experience driving anywhere in Europe and knowing very little German or Italian. [ Meaning, mostly my fault. ] I do not expect to return to Europe anytime in the next few years [ if ever ] and my daughter had downloaded a translation app. For both Italian and German - so did not expend a lot of time or effort trying to learn the languages. Some of the country and village roads in Italy were scary narrow. And I wish they had the option to just buy a sticker for use of their toll roads. My one ‘incident’ [ scraped the left front rim ] was while struggling to deal with an un-attended toll booth at an exit somewhere south of Trento after dark. I drove too close to the curb, trying to understand and deal with the instructions and reach the ticket \ credit card slots, etc. [ sigh ] Oh, well.

    Why not Rome or Florence or Milan or Venice, one might ask? My daughter spent over a week in Italy a couple of years ago, and had an opportunity to visit each of those places. And I was just personally much more interested in the Austrian and Swiss Alps and the Italian Mediterranean coast than the cities. We were both quite happy with our choices!

    The car – 2011 335iS Coupe, Le Mans Blue, Gray Leather, DCT, Premium Package, Comfort Access, Heated Front Seats, Satellite Radio.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q3/2011_bmw_335is-short_take_road_test- -

    I test drove 2 cars equipped essentially identical to what I bought, except they both had the optional 19” wheels & tires. For me & for my typical driving, I decided that the 18s would be fine – and offer a somewhat better ride. The car was delivered with Michelin Pilots – excellent tires.

    continued...
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Given that every time I drove ‘my’ new car, it had my daughter in the co-pilot’s seat and a trunk full of our luggage, I was very impressed with the acceleration and response at every speed and under every condition. [ I am really looking forward to driving it with only me in the car ! ]

    The performance exhaust system is perfect, for me. The DCT is a jewel, manually or automatically upshifting very, very quickly & with precision, and no perceptible interruption in the flow of TQ application. Very smooth – and fun! And downshifting manually with perfect rev-match every time. Very impressive.

    I found the ride [ even with fairly low profile RFTs ] to be absolutely perfect – at any speed and on every surface we encountered.

    I certainly did not stress the car, handling-wise, with my daughter along and driving unfamiliar roads – but under all conditions the steering feel, response and the balance were confidence-inspiring.

    Dynamically, I find this BMW a near perfect blend of practicality and performance. I enjoyed almost the entire driving experience [ exceptions noted above ] and I am really looking forward to re-delivery here in [ says BMW ] 6 to 8 weeks.

    Why the 335iS? Having driven more than one 335i with Steptronic previously, I was most interested in the additional HP, and [ particularly ] the additional TQ and the 7-speed Dual Clutch Transmission of the ‘iS’. The handling poise of the 335 with a significant bump in acceleration and better gear shifting was enough to draw me in to test one. FWIW: I am quite satisfied with the ‘iS’ – and [ for acceleration and handling context ] my previous car was a Corvette.


    set full screen mode [ option bottom right – and \ or F11 on firefox ] end enjoy

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/rayainsw/BMW%20Euro%20Deliv/?albumview=sl- ideshow
    2022 X3 M40i
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited October 2011
    that was great. I've been to Europe several times and was able to absorb how things work at company expense during my first 3-4 visits; I can appreciate how hard it would have been to have taken such an ambitious journey as a maiden voyage. By the time I took my wife over I had a much better grip on things, one of which was when to ignore the GPS.

    I also enjoy the Swiss & Austrian Alps -- thanks for the descriptions & photos. I arrived last year too late to use some of the prettier passes, but there's always next time. Northern Italy may be on the agenda as well, given your great intro.

    Parking and using shanks mare & public transit has a lot to recommend it, though I find it hard to do with a rental that's costing a pretty penny each day it sits -- you didn't have that issue.

    Wow, just over a week ago. You'll have those memories forever. Thanks again for taking the time to share your trip in such detail.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Yes, thank you.

    I've never been to Europe but I've always wanted to go. I really enjoyed reading about your trip and looking at your pictures.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Yes....Thanks, Ray! What a great report. Maybe NYC can give us a report on driving his TSX around NY. :P

    Actually, I think the TSX is a sports sedan that appeals to a different demographic than some would think. I know my son's friends (all early 20s) love the TSX. Seems as if that feeling switches once that 30+ year old threshold has been passed.

    I've had a TSX loaner when I still had my TL in for service. They're really nice cars. Decent power....handle well.....relatively comfy.....lots of options as standard.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Very nice, I did the Euro Delivery of my 2005 330i Sedan with the ZHP package. Had a blast driving around Europe, my car has the nav system, I was able to get a copy of European DVD for the Nav system which made it very nice. I just bought a 2011 328i sedan with the M3 package and 6spd Manuel from a dealer. But we are going to get a 535i next spring and will do the Euro delivery on that car. Its going to be a nice trip..
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Took the TSX "out to the ball game" on Friday night, watched 1.5 innings of baseball, then sat through an hour & a half rain delay until the game was postponed until Saturday night. The TSX's backup camera made street parking a snap. Took the TSX back to the game on Saturday night & saw one of the most amazing baseball games ever.

    I appreciate your candid thoughts on the TSX & tremendously respect your opinion. I'm sure your TL SH AWD would run rings around it. At the price point, it's not bad though.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Ray, I have been looking forward to your write up. You did not let us down. I wonder why you stated you will probably never return?

    My wife and I have been to Germany about 25 times -- and we have taken the train from Munich to Venice (which goes through Verona) so many times we cannot remember, but each trip has always been better than the one before it. Breathtaking scenery, excellent sometimes food-gasmic meals (especially in Italy) -- the 5 course meals on the train trip to Venice are all Italian and all very nice, considering the food is on a train.

    We've stayed in Verona many times and we are fortunate enough to have access to a relatives apartment in Venice -- although we have stayed in many hotels in Venice, including the Danieli (worth saving up for.) We find virtually every part of Europe worth a return visit is the point. Why will you not be returning, pray tell?

    Loved the running commentary about the car, its transmission, tires, etc and even your reason for choosing it over others.

    Nice job!

    And, thanks! ;)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2011
    I have been reading the endless running commentary apparently about the inclusion of the TSX in this discussion forum.

    I tend to agree the TSX doesn't fit in with the other cars -- I am on day three of having a loaner TSX while my TL gets backup sensors installed (I live in Cincinnati and the dealer is in Columbus, and I travel to Columbus every Saturday, so here I sit with a TSX and an '09 Audi A4 Prestige/Sport (tiptronic) at my disposal.)

    Over the weekend I drove both cars extensively -- I prefer the Audi, DUH! But the TSX was "a very nice little car." It seems outclassed by the other cars in this forum, but, I say let it stay here and let's not bash it. It seems the TSX is a fine machine, but is somewhat lacking in both lux and performance characteristics -- for MY taste.

    Let's move on, let's accept the fact that ALL of these cars are fine machines in their own right. They can't all be BMW's or Audi's or whatever your ideal is of an ELLPS. I think I have driven virtually all of the cars listed at the top of the page -- I like some better than others, but, overall I think they are ALL mighty fine.

    Since I just leased a new TL, I would assume you might think I am going to tell you how great the TL is and how it could kick your fill-in-the-blank car's butt. Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I didn't get it for that reason -- I got it because of its value. I may live to regret buying on that criteria -- I'll let you know.

    I will be turning in my Audi this week -- I will miss it. At 53,000 miles it feels like it is about a 20,000 mile old car -- and since the tires have plenty of tread, it still performs better than most cars on the highway. But, so does the TL SH-AWD Advance. While the Audi is "better" (as far as I am concerned) I just don't see that the price premium the Audi commands is justified. That is just me, perhaps -- I know that (finally) Audis are once again selling well, most reliability issues are behind it (I can testify, however, that I NEVER had reliability issues with 28 of my 29 Audis), its style always turns head and the driving experience is only rivaled by Infiniti and Acura -- and BMW, of course.

    Yet, you know, the S60 is the car I would have most liked to have leased for 36 months if there would have been ANY wiggle room in the S60 cap cost (which there was ZERO). If you have driven an S60 T6, you know what I am talking about -- it seems like a hell of a lot of fun. Truth be told, I thought the S60 T6 was more fun than a new 3 series X-drive flavor.

    The CTS too, had its merits, but one deal breaker -- no OMG handles for the driver or front-seat passenger (whose dumb idea was THAT?!?) I wouldn't take the CTS seriously for that one omission -- and for love nor money, you couldn't get blind spot warning on a CTS 4-door sedan (again, at this price point, in this class, a serious omission, specially when you can get a Taurus with it for pity's sake.)

    Anyway, I pretty much like or love most of the cars in this class -- they are the right size, the right power (usually) and make an old fart like me feel like I am driving something that can outperform virtually anything else on I-71 and I-75 here in the Big Town of Cincinnapolis.

    Drive it like you live.

    I'll sign off now, knowing I am often wrong, but NEVER uncertain.

    Mark

    :surprise:
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Ray good recap . Always wanted to know what the process and experience with this program- it was a good break from the TSX bashing/ lovefest of the past week, and after reading this it also clarifies what lux and sport should be for me. It must be cool being able to explore the limits, something you can't do on the LIE.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Wow Mark, it takes the dealer that long to install the back-up sensors?
    I had mine plus the wood wheel and wood gear shift knob installed in a day. I had the 09 TSX as a laoner as well, nice car but not for me.
    I try to upgrade with every new car, the next one I get is going to be a beast, probably a V8 Mercedes.
    Secondly, I have learned that some of the posters on these boards, their words are just wind. They drive around in (mass production)RWD/AWD V6 and think that their car is special, you would probably think they own a RR Ghost or Phantom the way they rant.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2011
    No, it takes one day to install the back-up sensors. I live in Cincinnati, the purchasing dealer (where I also purchased the sensors from, and incorporated them into the lease now that they can be capitalized) is in Columbus.

    100 miles separate these cities.

    I travel EVERY Saturday to Columbus. The arrangement was this -- drop off the car, pick up the loaner, then pick up the car the following Saturday. This, for better or worse, gives me the use of the TSX for about a week.

    I am able to note the Acura upgrades to what is essentially a Honda of some kind (people here say it is an Accord). The fit and finish and the interior are certainly somewhat upgraded over what you would get in a Honda.

    But, despite these upgrades and the requirements for premium fuel, the TSX doesn't, to me, represent an entry into the ELLPS crowd. But, as I said, live and let live, keep it in and we'll see what happens.

    I would think that the TSX would be "naturally" cross-shopped with an Audi A3 -- for instance.

    But, as I said, I cross shopped a 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance with an Audi A4 2.0T Prestige Tiptronic and, for fun, I drove a Premium Plus S4, more or less stripped of the lux bits and w/o the Sport Differential (Torque Vectoring). Also, I shopped the Acura against a CTS/4 Luxury Edition w/19" wheels and paddle shifters as well as against a Volvo S60 T6 and against an Infiniti G37X/S and an M37X Premium+Tech. Having just come from a 2008 BMW (my wife's), I did not look at a 3 series, my German preferences satisfied with the A4 and/or S4.

    To me, these cross shopping adventures seem MOSTLY rational (the M37X is an outlier) -- I would not have considered a TSX anymore than I would have considered an A3, for instance.

    I drove my 2009 A4 Prestige with the 19" sport package to work, yesterday -- today I drove the TSX in. I would say the differences were like Filet Mignon vs Laura's Lean hamburger patties. I like both of them, but prefer the filet, by far.

    I did test drive both of the Audis and the Acura on the same Saturday in June -- I also test-drove the CTS I mentioned. The Acura was, best I can describe, like an Audi AS4 quattro if such a model actually existed.

    Anyway, sorry to digress -- again -- but the back-up sensors are not taking this long, the issue is where I live vs where I bought. Once the sensors are in, I will either use a Cincinnati Acura dealer for service or I will take advantage of Lindsay Acura's Saturday service for things like oil changes and tire rotation, etc.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    'Why will you not be returning, pray tell? '

    The short answer is:
    Other priorities ....
    Very glad I did this - now.
    - Ray
    Movin' on........
    2022 X3 M40i
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Back in 09 I crossed shopped the following-

    GS350 (wanted this one badly)- disliked- 17' wheels, Dealer installed XM
    E350- disliked- price, Long term cost of ownership
    G35X-cramped interior(reminds me of my 99 millennia) intrusive growl
    RL- Nothing to dislike, could not see a difference getting this over the TL-wood accents probably
    A6 3.2- went to the dealership but they were on cloud nine.

    I think I did two more, I cannot recall now.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Looks like a group of mass produced v6s to me.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Looks like a group of mass produced v6s to me.

    Are hand-made V6's better? :surprise:
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited October 2011
    Wouldn't know out of my price range but if it was I would get a RR ghost or phantom.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    About the slaughtering my TSX has taken lately. I'm going to somewhat agree with Sweendogy and say that my TSX is a "Sporty Sedan" instead of an all out "Sports Sedan."

    Considering some of the cars its being considered to by some posters here (no disrespect to anybody in particular), might not be entirely fair. A fully loaded up almost $50,000 A4 with Quattro, Sports Suspension, and Torque Vectoring Rear Differential. I would hope the Audi drives a whole helluva lot better. Same thing with a TL-SH AWD.

    The TSX V6 is too nose heavy to compete with anything in the class and you'd have to really hate the base TL to buy a TSX V6 with a similar MSRP (even though the V6 TSX is loaded with incentives most of the time).

    Where does the TSX go from here? You can't give it more power because it will torque steer like crazy. You can't give it Acura's SH-AWD because that will add weight and price.

    The TSX is a great car. I own one and love it. It has a taut suspension, adequate acceleration, fantastically supportive seats. It it fun to drive, gets good gas mileage...

    I'm happy with the decision I made to buy it. I've got over 41,000 miles on it after only 25 months. In a little less than 3 years it will be paid off and I'll hopefully be able to drive it relatively trouble free for well past the 100,000 mile mark.

    If there was never a cash for clunkers program, we drove our leased X3 for the entire 3 years and it had 60K miles instead of 45K for 3 years, would I have even set foot into an Acura dealership? Probably not. If something happened to my TSX today, would I get another one? I'm not so sure.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    nyc.....in that mid $30s price range, I think the TSX is "right there" with the likes of an A4 or 328i (both discounted).

    I've taken a couple of stabs at liking Infinitis. None of them ever made it to the top of my "want it" list. I think they lack the refinement I got used to with Acuras, BMWs ,etc.

    The TSX should at least be given a look in the sport(y) sedan category based on the value equation.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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