Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Could my TSX use more power via DI, FSI, Turbo, or Supercharging? Yes, but then how much torque could the front wheels handle? Would Acura's SH-AWD add too much as far as weight (& price) to its current entry level price tag without stealing sales from the base FWD TL?
I'm happy with my TSX.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Content and price them with options and packages that make sense, but don't push massive amounts of technology in one package. In other words, offer a basic version of the cars (but ONLY in AWD trim.)
SH-AWD is damn near magic, it totally transforms the basic FWD car into a really believable ELLPS car. My dealers claim they sell mostly MDX's anyway, so Acura already seems to have at least the possibility of being all AWD all the time like Audi.
With the FWD models clouding the message, it seems Acura's sometimes are more like VW's than Audis, yet Acura has essentially stated it wants to be in the Premium class and that it wants to model itself on Audi.
I assume this makes sense since VW begat Audi and Honda begat Acura. Audi morphed (in the us) to the "quattro" company and claims to be the reigning champeen of AWD cars (with the most history, don't you know?) Audi has essentially eschewed FWD cars (in North America) in favor of AWD cars in order to be taken seriously as a contender in the Premium class -- where only RWD and AWD are taken seriously, it's in all the papers.
Acura keeps hanging on to its Honda roots where it's good AND where it's not so good, premium perception-wise. Audi, morphed from FWD to FWD and/or AWD to AWD, period. They entered and won contests and races and Wards awards and other awards, but these awards and the spoils of winning were all accomplished with their AWD versions. Although I guess you could buy an FWD A4 or A6, I don't know where you go to actually find one in the flesh for sale at a dealer.
And Audi did wonder "how much power can one put throught the front wheels" -- its answer was "not enough, so we need to put MORE power through the front AND rear wheels." And they are where they are now by taking the risk of virtually dropping FWD from the NA market.
And what happened next? BMW brought out the 325 (in 1988 (?) as I recall, since I had one) with AWD; then Mercedes started offering AWD here and there. Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Volvo, VW, Cadillac, Buick and, and, and, the list goes on to cover every LPS and LPS wannabe brand and product.
As to the price impact -- I think it would be pretty easy to keep the price of an all SH-AWD fleet at about the current FWD models + $1,500; for the safety and performance this would offer, to say nothing of an image enhancement similar to that which Audi enjoyed, it is probably not a show stopper for the company.
And, most of us shopping in this class will probably not reject a new Acura that is exclusively offered with SH-AWD. For most, it ought to be a no-brainer.
I have nothing against FWD, btw, I just think it would be very helpful to Acura if it has the goal of remaining a serious premium class brand, to completely ditch any and all FWD offerings from its lineup.
:surprise:
That's not entirely accurate. A3s and A4s are sold here mostly in FWD (Tampa). I asked a salesguy about it once. He surprised me. To Audi without AWD is like nonalcoholic beer or worse.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Excellent post on Acrua, sween. Agree 100%. And I drive an '05 TL. A much better looking car IMHO than the current one. Acura has really lost its way, as has Honda.
Give my TSX a turbo, SH AWD, & excellent brakes (the oem brakes are pathetic) & I'd give it another look.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
As I mentioned in my earlier post, the crux of the issue is not how these cars drive (if the 2012 TL Advance SH-AWD is any indicator), they are not a boring drive, not an incompetent drive, nor lacking in performance. The thing is the cars are pretty much not very attractive -- even if they do get bonus points for trying to look different.
They have the driving thing in pretty good shape as far as I'm concerned -- they need to modernize the engines and look at the content that is offered by every car brand/product they wish to emulate and be guided accordingly.
They need to consider making themselves perceived solely as an AWD company and they need an across the board styling transplant or upgrade asap.
Probably more than any other step they could take, styling is the one that will bear the most fruit. For, no matter how much they up their game in the performance or content arena, people need something to draw them to the showroom and something to feel good about after they buy.
My '12 TL is "better" in so many ways than my '09 A4 -- which was the first year for the change to the B8 platform for Audi. I would not expect this to remain thus -- a refreshed A4, most likely, will again be more attractive (in all the above ways) than the current TL (from a design perspective mainly.)
You don't have to agree with the magazines, but the current A6, which looks very much like a larger B8, A4, is winning friends, awards wise. No Acura is on any list I can find. BMW, too, remains a repeat top choice amongst those who award wins for being great.
Acura simply needs a style-ectomy, soon.
:sick:
Love the traction this is finally getting - its time to release the TsX from this Elpps chat once and all as a lesson to Acura you can't stand around for 10 years and do nothing in an evolving car biz. (sorry for typos, iPhone)
Like I said, my TSX is handsome (IMHO) but its styling doesn't compare to BMW, Audi, MB.
Practicality, Luxury, & Technology are driving people into Acura showrooms rather than style & performance.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
But if you can at least suggest that you can offer a lower entry point, price-wise, you may find you attract more and younger customers. Truth be told the TL is actually much bigger feeling than my outgoing A4, which did, technically, have a longer wheel-base, but the TL is wider.
Again, we seem to be in violent agreement, Acura needs an overall styling cue that is spread across all cars and, first and foremost, is attractive.
You may or may not like the look of an Audi, but the entire line from the lowest cost A3 to the big buck A8L or R8 all have cues that they are Audi's.
BMW, ditto.
Acura is trying with their beak front end, but it obviously wasn't working for them, considering the plastic surgery the TL just underwent.
C'mon let's make some good looking cars -- at all price points!
...any KIA (Rio starting at 13k).
To me it seemed like the Acura beak was trying to imitate the Cadillac shield...but it ended up looking to thick and plasticky...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Honda must be experiencing some big internal struggles that we don't know about. Just look at latest Civic and Accord. The "sportyish" DNA is all but gone, virtually no trace.
I recently a rented Accord (yes, I was surpirised myself - Hertz had Accord in their rental fleet). Mechanicals were adequate, but the car did not impress me at all. Really cheap interior, barge look, even some ergonomics were not so great (always strong suit of Japanese cars). Long story short, if I were in market for family midsize sedan, Accord may not even make the short list.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
NYCcarguy- the death of the Rsx and the no entry point at mid 20ks is a problem- the 4 door current TSx is boring - no other term to use- its a nice safe play but 95% are auto an 97% come with the 4 that is taxed in its current form.
They have alot of holes, no supercar, no coupe, no convert, Zdx, a turbo 4 that gets terrible Mpgs, ugly Tl, tsx thats bloated, Zdx and the fact that it's current line does not have one car people have to own (see sonata). Yes I mentioned the Zdx 2 times- it seats 4, weights more then the mdx, ugly and has the sr engine as then mdx- also its overpriced .
Acura is the new Buick. Buick is the new startup. Acura has 2 choices given recent sales numbers - die or redue. Acura has a choice to make - let's hope they choose wisely.
Interesting points. When I bought my TL in '04, the TL was among the best looking sedans out there, they had the tight, nimble, and pretty good looking TSX, they had the RSX, they had the original better looking MDX. Then they bloated and uglied up the whole line, and dropped the RSX. A bunch of steps backwards. No wonder they are slipping in sales. Honda has really lost its way.
I feel when the last Acura name died (integra) I think the brand was slowly doing soon there after
The result is a BRZ that came in under its target weight at 2,690 pounds according to Subaru. That's about 100 pounds less than a Honda Civic Si, and it feels like it, too.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
"with the new 328 coming out soon - and sporting a 4cyl engine, that outperforms the current v6, does this change the way we look at this ELLPS foruM?"
Sween yes and when it comes to buying them, it usually a cash deal to boot.
ALso MB had a 4 cl in thier C class for many years and dropped it for a small V6, will MB go back to a entry level 4 cl?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Too bad this site doesn't have a "Last edited..." footnote like vBulletin powered forums do. That said, if you look at the two posts concerned, you'll see the timestamp of his original post is eleven minutes after my post which is immediately below his.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
It is very cool that the new Blown 4cyl 3 is impressing the brass @ BMWNA. I'm excited for a 6 speed stick version too. I'm also really impressed with the sub 6 second 0-60 time. I can't wait until BMW puts this thing up on their build your own on their website.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I basically decided to jump in and get one before new 328, exactly because of the four cylinder replacing base six in 328 (got the wagon, so no 335i on that, plus 50K+ after some options still too much for me). Boy, what a sweet machine - drove it in Germany on Autobahn, got to 138 mph before traffic stopped me. Now waiting for delivery in Spartanburg - probably in January.
Don't care about lower gas mileage, don't care about lower weight, higher power/torque. I just wanted that NA straight six - it's probably one of the best engines in the history. And I bet BMW would never have changed, if not for the new CAFE.
I had enough four cylinder turbos - 2002 WRX and 2008 WRX STI, which are boxers, inherently better configurations that straight four. Fast, great handling, in some aspects may better than 328 (allows faster corner entry and maintains that speed throughout). Still - I just wanted more "adult" car than my STI, was ready to give up some power and even some handling.
To me BMW 3-series was always about two things: weight distribution (50/50) and straight six. The 328 I just bought had interior that is just OK, but it looks like it was designed thirty minutes before the car was to be released - give some nice leather and wood inlays, add dashboard from 1989 and you're done. The car overcomes that in those mechanical aspects, but take of of them away and other choices become very compelling.
Audis are so much better looking(by a mile) both inside and out, have better equipment, cheaper. Or being a little on frugal side, I may get even lower to TSX (not sure about that, but would give it a try) or even Volvo V50.
To me BMW voluntarily gave up something they had over their competition. They better make it up in other areas - or else.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
But more important - I got I6, which is what all I wanted for now. :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"He tries to talk them out of them and explains that the mileage restrictions will kill them at the end of lease. But, people do not listen to them at all."
Something about the customers not listening to the voice of reason by the salesman makes me laugh
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
- The I4 Turbo has more maximum power and torque, and a substantially wider/flatter power band.
- The I4 Turbo weighs significantly less than the I6 which will aid in handling and fuel economy.
- The I4 Turbo is shorter (albeit wider by virtue of the turbo and its requisite plumbing) than the I6, and as such is easier to package which should in turn make service easier.
- The I4 Turbo returns significantly better fuel economy.
This is not to discount the fact that I6 motors are naturally balanced and have virtually no torque reversal events (of which there are two for every rotation of a 4-Cylinder/4-Stroke engine), and as such are naturally smoother both in operation and in power delivery. That said, the portion of the roughness of an I4 which is attributable to the engine's natural imbalance is A) relatively minor due to its 2.0 liter displacement (the threshold beyond which balance shafts become increasingly necessary), and are easily cancelled via a relatively small/light weight set of balance shafts.
Long story short, take a drive in a late model GTI or A3 (or A4 or A5) 2.0T and try and find something objectionable about the power delivery vis-à-vis a late model 328i. I've now had two I6 BMWs; the engine in my wife's new GTI is easily on par with the unit installed in both of my mounts from Munich.
While I would never say never, I don't see how a larger car will use the same, or very similar running gear and do better than the Z4. I can't see the high 30's... At best, the very low 30's, which is still nothing to whine about, IMO.
Time will tell.
2018 430i Gran Coupe