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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Smoothness comes in two flavors, the first is engine balance, and the second is power delivery.

    Engine Balance:
    - The only match I know of for an I-6 in this metric is an H-4, an H-6, or a V-12. Pretty much every other engine configuration suitable for an automobile will develop ordered vibrations at some level.

    Power Delivery:
    - Engines of the 4-Stroke / 4-Cylinder (or fewer) variety suffer from noticeable "torque reversal" events; in the case of the four pot motor, there are two such events per revolution of the crank. What is a "Torque Reversal" event? A state where the power delivery of the last cylinder to fire has waned to the point where it can no longer sustain engine rotation and when the next cylinder to fire has yet to wax to the point where it can sustain said rotation. Considering 4-Stroke engines apply over 90% of their power between a point twenty degrees after TDC and twenty degrees before BDC, there are two forty degree periods per rotation of the crank where the engine mechanicals and the flywheel are driving the engine.

    Remediation:
    - The remediation of natural engine imbalance of I-4 engines has been known for a very long time, simply keep displacement to roughly two liters or less and apply two (im)balance shafts rotating at twice engine RPM (one to either side of the block), and the natural vibrations of the engine are effectively cancelled out.

    - The remediation of torque reversal events is both easier and not as complete; it is easier because the manufacturer only needs to add a heavier flywheel to effectively dampen out the events. The thing is, dampening isn't as "complete" (for lack of a better word) as cancelling; the torque reversals will always be there, it will just be very difficult to sense them.

    Final thoughts:
    All intermittent combustion engines exhibit torque peaks and valleys, even the monster 18 cylinder R-2800 "Double Wasp" and the even monsterer 28-Cylinder R-4360 "Wasp Major". That said, once beyond the 6-Cylinder threshold the "valleys" don't step into the realm of negative torque and are thus imbued with a property called "smoothness". Six cylinder engines, even BMW's vaunted I6 models, do venture briefly into the negative torque territory three times per revolution, but the excursion below the line of zero torque is so shallow and so short in duration, they too have been given accolades for their smoothness.

    For my part, if BMW's new(ish) turbocharged 2.0 liter I-4 is engineered to be "only as smooth" as the 2.0T in our new GTI, it will be more than smooth enough for me. :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited January 2012
    Great post -- I nominate it for "one of the great posts" awards (as if there is such an award.)

    If the new BMW turbo 4 is as smooth as the 4 that was in my 2009 A4, I would be delighted. Knowing how time and tide tend to mean incremental improvements are possible (because of the passage of time -- plus a stack of $100 bills), I would assume this new BMW engine will be even smoother. Love the higher HP (and slightly higher torque) than in the Audi 2.0T -- makes me wonder if the tuner shops won't be bringing out some Fritos to up the torque, big time and even boost the HP by at least another 10 or so.

    31 months to go on my '12 Acura TL lease. Of course Audi may well come out with their new and improved 2.0T, in that time period too.

    And with $4.00/gal gasoline coming soon to a pump near you, these 4-cylinder engines keep getting more and more attractive.

    Drive it like you live. :shades:
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I agree on the 4cly blurb- 31 months that's tough
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I never said, "crappy" engine, I was expecting the new turbo 4 to be a power house and it is. However most people know that BMW has 6 cyl engines and to sell a $46K call with a 4 cyl is a tough sell, but the little engine produces some good number but in 0-60 and MPG. BMW learned it's lesson with the 318i, talk about "crappy" engine.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Not really, since Mark has owned 29 Audis in the past, his local Audi dealer will make him a great deal to get him out of that TL.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I would love to see the deal one would get with 31 mths remaining on a lease on a 2011 TL and reselling that TL on an Audi lot. That sounds like a "leader ad".
    Back on the 4cyl . the old 6 was a fine engine and it sold very well(leased even better) but BMW and the world is looking at 100 (98 and change close today) oil- which will continue to rOll into the pump prices. Even at 45-50k people hate the 80 dollar gas hit 2-3 times a month. 4cyls are here to stay. For 40k I'm willing to pay for a strong 4 that performs better the current 6 and gets me 30mpg highway in the /012 3- add the sports pack and you have major performer with stick.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    It will be a sad day when BMW does away with the I-6. I love my M, but I do really miss that sweet M20 I had before I went 4-cylinder. That M20 was a sweetheart.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    That M20 was a sweetheart.

    It still is.... ;)

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Yeah, yeah...
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,163
    ... is available with manual. It is basically "no-cost option" as opposed to standard automatic. So no need to go to 335 is one doesn't want to. Yiiihaaw.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    One of the major gripes I have with my 2010 Acura TSX is its lifeless electric power steering. The complete lack of feedback doesn't help when trying to navigate the snowy, unplowed, unsalted roads of Stamford, CT on my way to work this AM.

    Up until today, I haven't had the chance to put the TSX through its paces in the white stuff with its Michelin Pilot Arctic Alpin snow shoes. For those of you who've been paying attention, up until this past May the TSX was my wife's car and my DD was my Prelude (15" snow shoes in the winter of course).

    The only way I knew the wheels broke traction was by the flickering stability control light on the dash.

    FWIW, 4 driven wheels don't help you if you don't take it easy. I saw a couple in a Range Rover who must've spun out & hit the guardrail.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    One of the major gripes I have with my 2010 Acura TSX is its lifeless electric power steering.

    There was a time when one of Honda's strengths was the nimble handling and steering agility of its vehicles.

    That was a long, long time ago. :cry:
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    My 2001 Prelude Type SH :)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    That was a long, long time ago.

    Maybe not so long -- my TSX is the previous version and has conventional steering and what I consider pretty decent handling for a FWD car.

    That said, Honda's recent offerings are bloated beyond belief.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Have faith brother - the Ilx is coming along with a new rdx- they'll be fine.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I thought I read that the TSX V6 version still has the hydraulic steering. I wonder if the new RDX with the the same V6 will have electric or hydraulic steering.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    The TSX V6 does have conventional, hydraulic power steering. While its no BMW, it does provide decent feedback. The problem is that the V6 weighs so much more than my 4cyl TSX that it adversley affects the vehicle's handling. The 280 horsepower was nice though.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I'm sure the 10 people that bought one would agree the 280hp is nice.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited January 2012
    Now we all know how I feel about this category - just because you have a brand does not get you entry to this group- many disagree- hosts have no solid answer why certain cars are here- but since BMW, the standard is ditching its work horse 6 for a better 4- let's throw this car into the mix a well-http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/future_cars/audi_a3_2013.html

    Yep new a4- rocking the turbo 4- lets make some room and finally delete the tsx from this forum - why 2 acuras, with combined sales of a housing suburb.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited January 2012
    A3 not 4.

    Tsx: tl- comment - housing suburb in Detroit - sorry -
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2012
    I don't always (often?) agree with you Sweeny, but that is one gorgeous sedan! And of course it belongs here - it's a sedan from a luxury brand, and it's drop-dead sexy.

    Now BMW needs a four door 1-series to compete.

    A3 is the new A4
    1-series is the new 3-series
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited January 2012
    If the new a3 is the new a4- And the 1 series is the new 3 series- I can't wait to see the new g series as it should take advantage of both as they move up.

    So happy you also Agree that the tsx should also be moved into the accord and sonata forum. Nice -happy times !
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny your comment about "since BMW, the standard is ditching its work horse 6 for a better 4" Please define what you mean by better? please don't just say it makes more power...
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    We mentioned this before but Better Mpgs and Power - pretty simple if you ask me. - I don't know the weight but guess its lighter as well.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    That is one sharp looking sedan. Give it to me with Quattro, Diesel, & Hydraulic Power Steering and maybe I'll look for an excuse to ditch my TSX:)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny that doesn't make the car better, according to all of the experts the best 5 series was the E39. It was better in the handling department, and overall design. I guess when it comes to better you have higher Priorities then others.

    I have to say, the new 2012 BMW 550i is a watered down M5 has caught my eye, but the styling isn't what I would call stunning...
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Not talking about a whole car here-

    Mpgs and power and lighter has nothing l do with my taste _ it's what BMW and the world is doing to fight higher costs of fuel- and govt mandates

    Enjoy
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    With the evolution of each generation of car, the series gets bigger. Now your E30 is just a tad bigger then the 1 series, and now with the new 1 series coming out, I'm sure it will be the same size or slightly bigger. Now the A3 is growing into what the A4 was when it first hit the shores and the A4 is growing in the perfect size sedan (IMHO).

    So when does these cars stop being entry level luxury cars?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "your E30 is just a tad bigger then the 1 series"

    Actually, the E30 is smaller than the 1-Series. :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Well size doesn't really matter... ;)
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    edited January 2012
    Speaking of the 550i - this is even more interesting.
    [ 550d = tri-turbo. ]
    [ To me. ]

    http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-series/bmws-m-division-unveils-new-m-performance- - -diesels.html
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    [ More 'on topic' ]
    Now, if they put that 550d's motor in a 3 series...
    - Ray
    [ Wow ]
    2022 X3 M40i
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    An Electronaut? BMWs all electric car available early this year?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Very interesting sounds like fun, however the cost of rear tires would be a problem after a while. I have a friend who has a Touareg V10, he goes through a set of rear tires a year, with over 500lbs of torque at 1200rpms it becomes costly. It is fun to come off the line and leave everything behind too, but it cost to do that.

    I also wonder if they did bring the 550d to the states, how much it would run, considering the 335d is about 6K premium over the 335i.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Seems to want to drive up demand for their CPO cars up. I just "built my own" 2012 328i and with a few options, the MSRP quickly balloons to $48K.

    A used 4 cyl Turbo X3 (MY 2013) is looking more and more like a reality to replace my 2010 TSX a few years from now.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    The only turbo 4, 3 series that is being sold in the US is not an xdrive that wont arrive until later this year.

    New 2013 3 Series starts off at 34K, however if you want the sport model, that bumps the price up a couple of grand, you can build a "strip" 2013 sport for roughly 37K. Of course when you add leather, premium package add $3600, Tech package and Cold weather package you are looking at 45K. What other package do you want?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,163
    edited February 2012
    Yeah, I've seen the new pricing scheme. While it has nice sound to it (Sport - Modern - Luxury), it is basically a racket to extract more money. Want certain color of exterior or interior? Pony up for 18" wheels, too. I've never been a big wheel afficionado, as long as they are not too drab, 17" wheels generally sufficient, heck even 16" would be OK with me. The whole scheme of binding wheels with colors/inlays is clearly done to disguise a real price hike - which is to be expected, considering material, development costs, etc. One can still find one color/leather combination without the whole "line" thing, but that's probably left just to feed those $399/month (or whatever) or "starting at..." commercials when the model makes it to the TV.

    But there is nothing new. If one wants to be first on the block, pay up. Couple of years from now, the price will stay the same, but some of that stuff will be a no-cost option. Just like with the outgoing model - leather, Ipod/USB integration, couple of other things were either added to standard, or became no-cost options. Just a matter of time.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I'll build it again @ lunch & see what it comes out too.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    edited February 2012
    Base MSRP $34,900
    Destination $895
    Sport Line $2,500
    Melbourne Red Metallic $550
    Technology Pkg (Nav & HUD) $2550
    Heated Front Seats $500
    Xenon Lights $900
    Premium Package (Req'd for Xenon) $3600
    Rear View Camera $400
    Park Distance Control (req'd for camera) $750
    Sat Radio $350
    Total MSRP as built $45,345

    It was more when I did this last night :confuse:
    They'll charge another, what, $2000 for AWD?

    The Turbo 4 328i X Drive is coming later this year. I think production on the 2013 X3 Turbo 4 starts in April.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited February 2012
    This is a prime example of why I buy used. And if you want all those options, I suggest you do the same. Most of those depreciate far faster than the "rest of the car." Take, for example, the NAV. You pay $2500 new .... that's worth all of ~$500 at trade time. Metallic paint? $0. Sport pack $800. Heated seats $0. HIDs $0. Etc. And all of this is independent of age, to an extent. Those are the same values whether the car is 2 months or 2 years old. They start going down after about year 5 or so, in most situations.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I've only owned new my entire driving life from 2 weeks after I got my license in 1992. I'm not going to be in the market for another car for a while. A 3 year old 2013 X3 or 328i w/ X drive off lease with a little more than 45K on the clock for $25 - $28K represents a fantastic value compared to their respective almost $50 something thousand dollar MSRPs. I know they've been well maintained & will run for a long time. With young children, it would be much smarter of me to buy a $28K car as opposed to a $48K car. I'll let you know when the time comes. Right now, my TSX gives me the sporty ride I need for my daily commute & my Prelude Type SH gives me "yeah baby" for once or twice a week I crave brilliant handling. Your 135i is a fantastic car for the money.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,163
    The idea of buying used cars is great, the problem with it is that there were no cars matching my list anywhere within 2 thousand miles - in fact there are not cars even close to one I wanted. Manual tranny - nope, wagon - nope, combined - forget it. So I got a new one. Of course I (over)paid, but did it willingly. When I spent 45 grand this Fall, I decided that the car will be EXACTLY the way I want it, as long as it is available - not close, not more-less, exactly. And it had all those "full depreciation" items: Nav, HID (part of convenience package), sports package. I was initially against 2-grand Navigation, thought Garmin would do, but they dropped the price by $600 when combined with Premium package, making the price more pallatable.

    My general stance on depreciation I don't care, because I buy a car for myself, not the next owner. I also like to keep it 6 to 8 years, as long as it's in good shape and has no major issues. At that point the depreciation is not such a big issue anyway . Doesn't always work this way; as a matter of fact, just traded a three-year-old Subaru STI, but that one was from the get-go intended to be a transition car. BTW, the depreciation came out just great, as I paid in November '08 $33K with all taxes and fees (even got no-interest loan on top) and sold it last week for $22.8K - less than $300/month!). So it worked out, even though I didn't care about it.

    Don't expect a similar miracle with my 328i wagon though. But again - as long as it stays in shape, I'll keep it. Until now there was always "the next car", even at the very moment of purchase. This time there is no "next car" for me, not from what they have to offer. Perhaps, if Audi brings S4 wagon again (but they won't), or the new 3-series Gran Turismo (MY 2013 and beyond) comes in 335i flavor and manual tranny (which it probably won't), or they go really crazy and make M3 or M5 in some hatchback/wagon flavor (which they won't).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    HOwever if you buy the car with cash then you don't have much to worry about. With BMW, you get the 4yr 50K full warrenty, with my 2011 I added it up 6yrs 100Kmiles. I do not plan on keeping the 2011 for 6 yrs, 4 tops. I like the 2011 don't get me wrong, but I feel a Z4 in my future. My 2005 330ic with the ZHP package I plan on keep for a while..

    So some people like to buy new and some do not, there is not a right or wrong choice here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    HOwever if you buy the car with cash then you don't have much to worry about.

    That, of course, has nothing to do with depreciation.

    I do not plan on keeping the 2011 for 6 yrs, 4 tops.

    6 years isn't bad. 4 years isn't so great. You definitely get hit hard in that case.

    So some people like to buy new and some do not, there is not a right or wrong choice here.

    Well, of course people can do whatever they want with their money. If someone wants to waste more, that is their perogative. I certainly have no right to preach. I am quite wasteful myself on my car spending .... just not nearly as wasteful as I would be if I purchased new.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Preaching is what you are doing. The group you are talking to now the ins and out of depreciation, cars and how to get the best deal.

    If you pay cash for your car there is no interest in the purchase, so the dollar outlay is less. I paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K, I wont have more then 35K miles on the car, so selling it or trading it in wont be a problem.

    Now if you wont to buy a 2 yr old car, then buy a 2 yr old car, I like others do not want a used car, this should be the end of this discussion.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited February 2012
    You must be talking to someone else.

    Here is what I said:
    This is a prime example of why I buy used. And if you want all those options, I suggest you do the same.

    Reread that again and again if you think I'm preaching. "Why I buy used." And "I suggest."

    Only friendly advice in those words. Hell, I regretted it after I posted it because I don't actually WANT folks to follow it. I'm grateful to those that load up their new vehicles and take a bath 2 years later.

    The group you are talking to now [sic] the ins and out [sic] of depreciation

    You certainly can't speak for everyone. Actually, MOST people don't realize the depreciation of options. So, again, I was offering up a SUGGESTION, along with some historical data. You certainly don't need to gives a rat's bum about my advice. Again, that's your perogative. I didn't offer it for your exclusive benefit.

    By the way, you won't be selling a 4-year-old 328i for $30k. Low-mileage '08s are going for right around $20k at auction, meaning, at the most, $24k retail and $22k private party. But I'm sure you knew that.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K

    LOL. I assume you paid sales tax and other fees so the car was probably around a sales price of $37k. Depreciation of less than 19% in four years? Good luck.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I didn't mean to throw up a topic & start an argument between 2 posters. Especially q who is our resident auction maven & 135i driver and flightnurse who tracks his ZHP on a regular basis & found an awesome E90 low optioned 328i w/ SP & stick. "Can't we all just get along?"

    Like I stated, I've only bought (or leased) new cars since the glorious day I got my license back in August 1992. I'm happy with my 2010 Acura TSX as a DD (could use more power, hydraulic steering, & MUCH better brakes), but am not head over heels in love with it (like I am my 2001 Prelude Type SH). My TSX was also a car that I bought originally for my wife with Cash 4 Clunkers money that I knew I'd be driving on the weekend, but not every day. This changed when we decided to have a 3rd child and now needed a bigger vehicle. Bought her a 2011 Pilot, The 2010 TSX becomes my DD, & my beloved Prelude gets driven once or twice a week (yes it gets the garage with the Pilot).

    I'm always thinking (building online & checking out used car values) about what's next. I know the financially smart thing to do is to pay off the TSX (just refinanced), and drive it with no payment until the wheels fall off. Cars are my "thing." I've been hooked on BMWs ever since I drove a friend's '95 E36 325is (stick, sport) through the streets of Buffalo one winter night when I was in college. I leased my wife an '07 X3 and just loved the way it drove. It was never in the shop once except for scheduled maintenance.

    With 3 kids and a mortgage, I think it would be selfish of me to go out and buy an almost $50K car (328xi or X3). If in a few years, I can muster together a small down payment, then I can convince the board of directors (my wife) that this Mid to high used $20K BMW (X3 or 328xi) is what i want and I think it'll last, then I'll go for it! Life's way too short to drive boring cars.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    edited February 2012
    Hey, don't forget my poor 540. :P

    You reminded me... I wanted to also say that's the one nice thing about the Acura (well, seems to be most Japanese vehicles): low-to-no options. There is something to be said for simplicity and standard features.

    The Germans are notoriously horrible in that regard. I was shocked to see at a Porsche show that you could actually option up a base Boxster into 911 GTS territory!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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