Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dino001 · February 2012

paid $39K (out the door) for my 2011 328i. In four years if I sell it for $30K I lost only 9K, I wont have more then 35K miles on the car, so selling it or trading it in wont be a problem

Talking delusional

And my house is worth half a milon. :P

After four years you'd be lucky to get $20K for a stripper 328. Unless you got something like 10 grand discount (which I doubt), it was probably base plus one package, no sunroof, no sports, no HID.

nyccarguy · February 2012

Something that I do love about my Acura. Tech pkg was the only option. Auto was a no cost option.

Porsche's options are insane. It is cool how customizable the cars are from the factory. My Mom drives a 2011 V6 Cayenne. I think there are only 3 options on it, but one is a $10,000 option package.

It is crazy if you ever look on a Porsche dealer's website to see inventory. Some of them have PDK equipped base boxsters with $70K + MSRPs.

flightnurse · February 2012

I would like to hear from the regulars of this group if I shouldn't have made the comment "he group you are talking to now [sic] the ins and out [sic] of depreciation" is false!

Regarding my 328i, first you are making an assumption that my 328 is a strip down car, MSRP was almost 47K, the GM ordered this car as an experiment and it failed on him. Here in Phoenix, 99% of all 3 series cars (non M cars) are sold with automatics, the GM wanted to see if he ordered a 328i with M sport package, (leather was a free option on my 328) xenon head lights, keyless access, cold weather package, moon roof would sell, and it did't not sale, it sat on the lot for 5 months. I must have hit the showroom at the right time, that is why I got the smoking deal. So yes most base 328 with very little options are selling at mid to low 20s. BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood point. So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them. Mine will have less then 40K and keep in pristine condition with all the right option.

flightnurse · February 2012

Yes porsche does have a nice long list of options, I was looking at a Caynne GTS, however when I optioned it out how I want it, it was 93K....

dino001 · February 2012

So, you say you got $47K MSRP for $39K with taxes (that's what OTD means in my dictionary)? Even with dealer incentives, it's still five grand below dealer cost. Wow, on that I can only say your it sounds just too good to be true, but since you say you got it, congratulations and kudos.

Now, on the resale: I'm no expert, I just sold a three year old car last week. First, the fact that dealers post $30K on something, doesn't mean you can sell same thing for that. Buyers don't care about auction prices, but dealers do when they take a trade. If you want to sell it individually, be prepared for weeks of no phone calls interrupted by text messages from people wanting to give you less that dealer would. I just went through that personally just in last month. Finally I sold it, but the reality was quite painful. You may have more patience and you obviously have more luck than me, so who knows.

Well, it is funny you said about the "experiment" car. That's very close to what I got (no M package, but regular sports package, convenience pkg and Nav). The car was about $46.5K MSRP. Nowhere near your discount, but it was ordered, so no reason to go below costs either.

sweendogy · February 2012

Your story sounds alot like those "leader adds" that manufactures put on there websites. Sorry guy

flightnurse · February 2012

dino I can only say the "experiment" was the word the GM used to me, I had no reason not to believe him, why would the car sit on the lot for 5 months with no bites. the Color combo was great, the options were right on the mark, except it was a manual and not an auto.

nyccarguy · February 2012

I'm sure you got calls from some serious characters selling your STi (right?). What were you offered by your BMW dealer on the trade? How much more did you get selling the car privately?

Flightnurse - auction values are relevant because that's what you are offered (at least here in the north east) for your trade.

I'm trying to talk myself into buying used next time around, so I'm trying to look at the glass as half full. Most BMWs here in the north east are leased for 3 years. When the lease is up, the car has anywhere from 30K to 45K miles on it. The car is still under warranty, has had all maintenance done by the dealer (ok, so not by Mike Miller's old school maintenance schedule) and is still in relatively good condition. It might have a new set of tires, fresh oil, and at least front brake pads & rotors. BMWs are wonderfully built machines who's life is FAR from over when the 50K mile warranty expires.

dino001 · February 2012

Again, manual is just for me. Now, if I could only believe somebody would take 5+ grand loss just to get rid of it. I did some basic math. $47K MSRP car is about $44K invoice. Then we may have dealer incentive (2011 is last year of the model), say 2 grand or so. So to get to $39K OTD we have price at $35K-$36K. That's possible 6 grand hit. Say there is another thousand or two lying around with the mfr - still 4 grand loss. Dealer finances inventory at say 6 APR on their revolving account (maybe more, I don't know, but it seems reasonable). Car is $43 or so invoice, which means it cost the dealer about 2.5 grand to finance it over full year. Why would one take this hit after just five months? Is there something you want to tell us?

dino001 · February 2012

Yeah, that was the worst part. Those jokers from 300 miles away sending you a text "would you take XXXX" . The long story was in December I got $22.5K offer from dealer ('08 STI, 37K miles, perfect interior, some scratches on exterior - $36.5K new MSRP, got it for $33 OTD - Subaru had $2.5K bonus cash then, it was November '08, Lehman Bros. just declared bankruptcy). Should have taken it right then. I decided to put in on Autotrader. Couple of serious calls, joker texts, showed it to one serious buyer, no avail, wife would not let him. At last, got a second buyer - lady buying it for her son (actually it is his money, but she's still calling the shots). It is month and a half from the time, I'm a little exhausted and she read me well. Bottom line - accepted 22.8K, which basically is about my "storage" costs added to the dealer's offer. But time passage also impacts the depreciation, so I think a dealer's offer today would be less than then. Playing it back in my head, I probably left five hundred to thousand on the table - but it's done, moving on. I take it as a lesson.

Weird thing is, Edmunds TMV is far, far less than Kelley/NADA, not only on dealer retail, but also on trade. This is first time I saw such discrepancy - usually it is that Edmunds tells you trade is more than Kelley/NADA, but retail is less. Here, they all three values down by several thousands. I think it has something to do with low supply due the tsunami. Seeing my transaction, I'm inclined to thing Edmunds is wrong this time - it looks to me as a computer calculating price based on predicted value rather than actual asking/transaction prices, which seem to be in Kelley/NADA case.

sweendogy · February 2012

Experiment = leader add? Are you sure its not a 323 you own and not a 328?

dino001 · February 2012

Those are sold in Canada, but not US.

qbrozen · February 2012

Regarding my 328i, first you are making an assumption that my 328 is a strip down car ...

No, I'm not. Actually, I'm assuming it has the right options. In the used car world, most options are assumed to be there and you start deducting when they aren't. So when I said $20k, that assumed premium package and auto trans, at the least. I didn't realize you had a stick. So the $22k is probably generous.

You apparently don't understand depreciation as you said you did because you failed to realize my main point, which is that most options add zero-to-very-little value to a used car.

BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood [sic] point.

Thanks for that. Did you wonder why I posted selling prices as well as auction prices? :confuse:

So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them.

Good for them. But, as your own buying story indicates, asking price and selling price are vastly different things. I'd also bet those are CPO.

dino001 · February 2012

Nurse may be a classic example of somebody who assumes they should get their car 20% below invoice, but same car should sell later 20% above dealer retail, just for mere fact of them keeping it in a garage and washing it every week.

Look for highest dealer asking price in their area, add another twenty percent to that is and then say "That's the value of my car". LOL

I disagree a bit with you on options. There is some "basic level" assumed, which usually may be above stripper, but there are options adding value, at least in first couple of years. Manual transmission does not have to be a value subtracting proposition for BMW - the car is rare enought to attract a few sporty stick shift afficionados, especially with M-package. That's a good combo. May not attract a buyer first day, but chances are those who show up may be more motivated - of course there will also be jokers as well.

sweendogy · February 2012

Talking Mazda .

dino001 · February 2012

Now, THAT IS funny

qbrozen · February 2012

but there are options adding value, at least in first couple of years

well, yes, of course. Those that I detailed in one of my posts above. With BMWs, for example, premium is assumed. Sport adds value, as does Nav. They do, however, as I said, suffer worse depreciation than the rest of the car.

A stick does hurt it at trade time, but you are correct that it doesn't have to hurt it at selling time. Dealers do the same thing. That's a sort of joke I've told before, and complained to salespeople about, too... they'll tell me "nobody wants it" when trading it to them, but then its "rare/hard to come by!" when buying it from them. So poor stick drivers get the shaft coming and going.

dino001 · February 2012

I agree - options do depreciate faster than base. I heard that Toyota actually accounts for that in their lease formulas (different residual percentage for base and different for options), which is probably smart thing for their protection, but will significantly increase lease payment for loaded models.

nyccarguy · February 2012

"...complained to salespeople about, too... they'll tell me "nobody wants it" when trading it to them, but then its "rare/hard to come by!" when buying it from them. So poor stick drivers get the shaft coming and going."

Very well said Q! Right on the money!

dino - I know the ride, build quality (solidness), RWD handling balance are very different between your 328iT & your WRX STi, but how are you holding up with the severe power differences between the 2 cars.

Q - I totally agree with you regarding the auction values of cars, that's what you get from the dealer whether it is a 10/10 or a 7/10. They deduct more if the car is in rough shape and don't add so much if the car is truly exceptional.

Sometimes, if you have the perfect car for the perfect buyer, things can work out in both of your favors. Back in 1998, when we graduated college a friend of mine had to have a Mustang Convertible with a stick. He special ordered a V6 (VEE SIX) Mustang Convertible with a stick. We tell him he's NUTS because everyone who wants a Mustang with a Stick Shift is going to want a GT (V8) & he's going to have a lot of trouble selling the car when the time comes.

To say my friend is anal about how he keeps his cars is and understatement. He also made it look like a GT (Dual Exhaust, Rear Bumper to Integrate dual exhaust, fake hood scoop...).

Fast forward to 2003. He Special orders a MINI Cooper S. His MINI comes in and he starts looking into selling his Faux GT V6 5 SPeed Mustang Convertible. I do some research for him & tell him that given the way domestics depreciate & given his car is a complete odd ball to expect to get maybe $11K TOPS for the car.

He lists it himself anyway after getting trade in offer of like $10-$10,5 (Plus paying full sticker for the MINI). He gets a call from some 16 year old kid who wants a Mustang with a stick, but insurance (& his parents) prohibits him from buying a V8. He likes the stick, the convertible, (Mom Likes the V6), & most importantly the faux GT styling. I think my friend got $16K for his car.

dino001 · February 2012

Well, I don't miss that power because I didn't really need it at the first place. I already feel my 41 years of age, so kid cars don't excite me as much. I got that STI because it was a deal one could not resists. Nice to get and have for a while, but glad it's over now. Traded these horses for better mileage, refinement, quiet cabin, and good stuff inside with no regrets. It is 230 hp vs 305, but in torque it is 200@2750 vs 290@4400, which means at low end the difference is less and delivery is linear. 328 is deceptively quick - not explosive or screaming, but it is just enough. I like it just the way it is.

sweendogy · February 2012

I find it funny that it's mid feb and no sedan on local dealers lot - maybe because I live in AWD country and they have yet to build them.

dino001 · February 2012

2012 3XXix and 335d sedan will be still old body and engines, just like coupe and convertible. I don't have any insider info, but new Fxx body will probably be 2013 for those. No way to say when, if all of it will come at fall, or if they space it out from spring to winter, as they usually do. Strategically it is better to have something to talk about every three months than have big talk once, but production lines have to be switched. When I was in Munich in October, they were making both new sedan and old wagon bodies on the same line, but that may be unique to that place.

For now, new body/engine will only be on 328i and 335i sedans, which is announced, but I don't think it has come to lots yet.

graphicguy · February 2012

Around OH, KY, IN, TN, etc, a loaded 328i with M and other options are tough to come by. They usually reserve those options for the 335i. That said, $47K for a 328i is a ton of money. I can buy a 335i for less than that.

That said, BMW dealers don't sell at a loss. They'll hold on to a 328i like you describe, use it as a loaner, or a demo. But, dealers sell just about all the ones they can get their hands on. IF you bought it at $7K-$8K off MSRP, the option list may not be what is reported, or it has a bunch of miles on it as a demo/loaner.

BTW.....took my 3er in to have the oil changed (6K miles, paid for it out of my own pocket....next one is on BMW), and they let me drive a '12 328i sedan. Interesting with a 4 cy...drive train's a lilttle rough.... uncharacteristic of a BMW. Significantly down on power compared to mine, too.

From the outside, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between an '11 and a '12. Interesting interior (don't know the name of it). Looks like the interior of a 5 series. IF you like the 5, you'll like the new 3.

But, as mentioned, the coupe/'vert for '12 is the same as my '11 coupe. So, not significant changes there for awhile.

Ride, handling, etc? About the same as an '11.

As I told my sales person (who is always nice to me when I stop by), "I'd take a steeply discounted '11 over this "updated" '12".

He agreed with me.

Should be interesting to see the sales numbers this year. They say MPG will go way up on the '12. But, I'm getting 23-24 MPG in mixed driving on mine, already. And, I've got a heavy right foot.

flightnurse · February 2012

Motor Trend reported that only the Sedan will be available for 2012, coupe and convertible will be old body style. Mid summer BMW will release the M package for the 328i and 335i. A 4 cyl diesel to be released by fall (look for mid 40's highway mpg.) The 6 cyl diesel will be dropped from the 3 series completely when the 4 cyl diesel is released.

flightnurse · February 2012

In Phoenix I test drove a 2012 328i sport with tech package and assorted goodies, price was 42K. I liked it, the turbo 4 pulls very strong, yes it is faster then 2011 328i, the car has more room in it, and an adult that is 6 ft tall can fit in the rear seat comfortably. Over all nice car, the new M package will give more power to the turbo 4, dealer does not know how much though, however i'm guessing 10-15hp more, kind of like the 330i with the ZPH package did.

Sween I doubt BWM dealers in your neck of the woods wont a regular 328i they want it with iDrive, wont happen until fall. The there are a couple of big markets for 3 series, So Florida, So Cal and Nor Cal, so I'm guess those markets and markets close to them will have first choice of cars.

flightnurse · February 2012

You are assuming too much, first off, I wasn't looking to buy a car the day I bought mine, however, the offer was presented to me, thought about it, retested the car, liked it, and bought it. I didn't sit and haggle with them at all, the price was written on a piece of paper, and was explained about the "experiment" he (the GM) tried, it failed, and he wanted to move the car, he was losing money on the car. I figured he would make up the difference he lost on the car from others who purchased cars. 2 weeks after buying the car, I went back to the dealership and purchased the extra 2 yr 50K extended warranty (bumper to bumper.) So when I sell my car, I know I should get the price I want. My cars are kept in pristine condition, and all service work done to them. So please save your arm chair quarter backing for your friends and co-workers.

nyccarguy · February 2012

I completely understand your liking the 328xit over the STi for its refinement & other aspects you mentioned. A 328 isn't blazing fast, but has no trouble getting up to speed & will cruise all day long on the right side of the 80 mph hash mark.

The STi has always been a screaming performer, but at the end of the day it is still an almost $40K car.

qbrozen · February 2012

LOL

dino001 · February 2012

All I can say good luck - I really hope you can get it. Send us a report fours years from now, would you?

dino001 · February 2012

Small correction - mine does not have "x" (it's a RWD - so yes I switched from AWD to RWD). They also stopped adding "t" in wagons (stands for "touring"), but it would still apply if they had

.

Anyway, I love it. It is all I wanted - no more, no less. I only have two complaints - dashboard looks like it is 15 years old, designwise, and the cupholders/armrest storage really suck. I think of BMW design process like this: they develop/refine engines and transmissions for 4 years, they obsess about new/improved suspension and steering for 2 years, exterior styling takes them about 10 months, then two weeks before the premier Hans just realized they forgot about the instrument cluster (again

) - so they pull one from the previous generation (which was used in one before that), slightly change fonts and send it to the marketing department... :surprise:

dino001 · February 2012

That said, $47K for a 328i is a ton of money. I can buy a 335i for less than that.

Yeah, but then you don't get a few things. My wagon was $46.5K MSRP. It took sports, premium, convenience and Nav. I guess you don't really need Nav and half of the convenience (HID is a must, but keyless start or rear sunshades are not). I would not get one without premium and sports, if not just for seats. If those seats were sold separately, I'd get them and could live with all-season rubber, on standard rims., normal suspension and speed limit at 130 (although I got it to 138 mph on German autobahn, but well

)

What's funny is realization than when compared with sedan, the wagon is actually cheaper, even though it starts higher. Sedan doesn't have standard fold down seats ($500, which is absolutely ridiculous - what's worse I noticed dealers actually don't order them - can only imagine surprise on somebody's face first time they try to fold seats :sick: ), is also has no sunroof (which I understand tall people may actually prefer not to have). What's more, the wagon's sunroof is "panoramic" (about half longer, because it can fold under longer roof) - absolutely awesome, puts

every time I reach for the button.

Wonder if the new 328i has still fold-down seats optional.

graphicguy · February 2012

dino....haven't looked at the 3 series wagons. Matter of fact, I don't think I've even seen one around here....regardless of model year.

I still think it will be interesting to see what the market will do as the "new" 3 series (and 5 series) have a base 4 cyl (albeit, turbo). I know Audi has been pushing their A4 with 4 cyl motors, and that MB is doing it with their new C series.

But, $40K+ large for a 4 cyl car is a bit of a stretch IMHO. You lose the smoothness of their 6, which is world class. I know they said the '12 328i is as fast as the previous gen 6 cyl, but it may have been lost on me. I've driven the previous 6 cyl 328. The '12 certainly doesn't feel nearly as quick.

Should be interesting!

dino001 · February 2012

It is all government's CAFE standards. Has nothing to do with actual market demand. They're doing it because they have to. By reports new 328i is even faster than previous and uses 20% less fuel. Mine getting the wagon now was no coincidence - the 6-cylinder NA engine was a big part of that decision. Didn't want to wait for the new 328i GT.

BTW, EVERYBODY who actually sees it is person says it looks better than sedan, more sporty, better lines. Perhaps there is some flattery there, but I think the same. You get sedan's handling (car is identical up to center pillar), extra boot, and better styling? Yet, you know, it is America. They don't buy anything with word "wagon" in it...

dino001 · February 2012

Small correction. I believe there is some demand for fuel efficient 3-series. But would be much better satisfied by a lower priced and even more efficient 320i (or whatever the naming would be) with something like 180 hp engine and price point slightly below current A4. Those would really sell to completely new customer base. But would probably not satisfy their CAFE goals.

qbrozen · February 2012

That's kind of where this whole concept gets lost on me, too. There are easier way to skin the CAFE cat, so I have a hard time buying it as an excuse for turbocharged cars.

Agree with you wholeheartedly that an NA 4-cyl wouild be even more efficient WHILE expanding their customer base. Even better than that, however, I would like to see them bring a smaller, lighter, 4-cyl base option here. Would increase efficiency considerably more. How about the 3-door and 5-door 120i? Wouldn't that be a helluva lot easier than constantly developing new engines? The 3-series is SUCH a porker now, which is the only reason I picked the 1 instead.

sweendogy · February 2012

Is it stupid of BMW to release a Rwd only 328 and 335 in the new body style and have the old body awd cars sitting next to them with the same model year 2012 - am I missing something, it's mid feb - what took them so long to get the 2012s rolling . I understand the coupe convert saying the same body- wagon ok . But to have xdrive models in old carb , why?

dino001 · February 2012

That may actually be twofold: engineering (fitting xdrive to the chassis) and manufacturing (retooling factories). They could have discontinue it altogether, but they elected to keep selling those. I don't know if I would call it stupid, but it's a little unusual to see models that seem to differ by just drive system.

cdnpinhead · February 2012

. . .expanding their customer base.

BMWNA has made it abundantly clear that they aren't interested in expanding their customer base that way -- mere plebians could then afford to drive a new BMW, and that'd never do. They prefer to sell (or, more often, lease) to those who aspire to the biggest baddest most expensive possible lifestyle, and it appears to work very well for them.

However, the majority of the customer base that reads and responds to Roundel articles predominantly drive the older cars because they think like you (and I) do. BMWNA could give a rip less about the enthusiast market; they're here to get cars on the road, and the people who care about such things are a mere sliver of the market -- the sliver that got the brand going, but that was then and this is now.

Oh boy. :sick:

sweendogy · February 2012

Sorry rest of the country but I would bet te majority of the US 4 door cars are sold up east- and would say 80% are with x-drive north of DC. I would of thought BMW would have figured out the drive system - its feb 13th.

dino001 · February 2012

You still can have it, just not in a new body. Plus, remember it's a global car - vast majority is sold in RWD config, x-drive is a recent development (less thasn 10 years). How do you get percentage anyway? Don't judge by what you see. Southeast, Southwest, California, Midwest, are mostly 2WD. And it's "would have thought", not "would of thought"

nyccarguy · February 2012

There's got to be a damn good reason that BMW released the new F30 3er in RWD guise only, especially since the car debuted in February. For the record, we've had snow stick to the ground exactly twice so far.

nyccarguy · February 2012

A $47K 328i is expensive, but hardly unheard of. Back in December 2007, my Mom ordered & leased a 2008 328xi with an MSRP of $46,000 + without the sports package & without navigation.

Most 335s out there have an MSRP in the $50K range.

nyccarguy · February 2012

I agree & disagree with some points you make about BMW. You know that personally I think BMWs are insanely expensive. They are well worth the cost of admission. I'd love a NA 4cyl 3er or a small 6 pot 320i that I could buy for the low to mid $30K range. However, I don't think we're going to get it.

I'm a BMWCCA member & enjoy reading ROUNDEL every month. We enthusiasts make up such a small percentage of the market, that we barely even register on BMWs radar screen.

BMW is in the business of selling cars and making a profit doing so. Some of the ROUNDEL letters I read every month drive me crazy. "I can't believe BMW won't import the F10 5 series wagon...". Well, BMW sold LESS than 900 (nine hundred) of these during the last year of E60 production.

Dino100 - I think your RWD, stick, sport pkg wagon is way cool.

dino001 · February 2012

I just read something in my warranty/service booklet. Spark plugs - new 4-cyl turbo needs them every 30K miles (528i and Z4 28i already have new engine), while most old 6-cylinder, turbo or not, only at 60K miles - twice as long interval. Curious.

It may be nothing, spark plugs are cheap, but I see it as a possible sign of things to come. Nothing is free. If you get 250 horses out of 2 litters, claim 20% lower fuel cost, somethings's got to give. We shall see in five years.

nyccarguy · February 2012

While it has snowed exactly twice this season, luxury buyers expect their cars to have AWD here in the northeast. The northeast is a major market for BMW. The same way I'll bet there are 3 & 5 buyers that won't realize their 328 & 528 guise BMWs are powered by 4 cylinder engines, they might not even know that BMW makes RWD only vehicles.

As (cheap) enthusiasts, we can only hope that in an attempt to sell a whole lotta cars that BMW leases out as many cars as possible so 3 years from now the used car market is flooded with well maintained, great driving BMWs.

nyccarguy · February 2012

Glad you made the comment about the F30 having some decent rear headroom. One of my biggest gripes with the E90 is its dimunitive size. While perfect as a second car in a family or a single person, for someone like myself who has to have child safety seats in the car it is just too small. I love the way the E90 drives though.

Interesting comments about the coarseness of the 4cyl turbo engine. Even though my Acura's I4 isn't the balanced wondeer that the BMW I6 is, it is a pretty damn smooth engine.

fedlawman · February 2012

"I can't believe BMW won't import the F10 5 series wagon..."

Here is a spy shot of the F10 sportback and wagon during field testing in rural Georgia...

sweendogy · February 2012

Thanks for the grammar lesson, dinko.

My % number was a blind number- and my comments started off by saying sorry to the rest of e country. Attack mode - Dino you lose a bone?

I stand by what I said, BMW did a bad job with this release.

kyfdx · February 2012

Cool!

The F in F-10 meant front wheel drive...

(that's a Datsun, for the kids out there..)

kyfdx · February 2012

My E46 has a 100K mile interval for spark plugs...

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