Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ivan_99 · February 2012

You could get an 06 IS350 if you don't mind an automatic. It is basically the same as the new 2012.

You'd have HP that was tops in 06 and is still competitive today and you'd have the "Lexus" reliability...if you subscribe to that sort of thing...

graphicguy · February 2012

btc....I don't know your personal finance situation (married? house payment? credit card bills?, etc), but would be willing to state that if an unexpected car repair comes up, you would be hard pressed to cover it.

With that in mind, I think I would probably stay away from the lux brands. Even though Acuras, Lexus, etc are known for their reliability, they do break. And, they do cost more than their more plebeian Honda and Toyota counter parts.

Don't discount Ford or GM either. You would be able to pick up a new Focus or Cruze for that amount with warranty, and probably better performance than older lux cars.

You could probably pick up a nice, 2-3 year old Camry or Accord for that money, and be relatively assured you'd get a lot of trouble free miles out of them.

Audi, BMW, etc, while good cars, are not economical to maintain, even if nothing major does go wrong with them. Unless you can do it yourself, even routine maintenance items will be expensive.

In short, set your sights lower, until you get more established into a higher tax bracket.

Good luck!

dino001 · February 2012

Well, didn't mean to. All I was saying, if 18 grand was all I had and I had no apetite for above-average repair/maintenance, I would not buy a car I currently own, even though I absolutely love it. Trying to be a realist. It is actually very easy to buy something, but to own it is a different story.

qbrozen · February 2012

S60 2.5T FWD. ONLY that model. Do NOT get AWD in this car! And it has to be '07 or newer for better transmission reliability (unless you are getting a stick, in which case it doesn't matter).

I also endorse the G35. Or you could get a Maxima.

flightnurse · February 2012

Sweeny you and leases.... Leases are not for everybody and most of the time cost more in the long run then buying a car. To get those ultra low payments come mileage restriction which is you are not careful can add up to thousands of dollars at the end of your lease. Most ultra low leases have a cap of 30K for 3 yrs.

flightnurse · February 2012

18K can get you some nice cars, however they will not be new, and I would avoid a lease at all cost. What cars appeal to you? also do not forget to add the cost of insurance, once you step up to the lux brands, Infiniti, Audi, BMW, Acrua, lexus, insurance goes up too. One thing you need to remember is, just because it comes from Japan doesn't mean the cost of maintenance will be less then those from Germany. The same can be said for cars from the US. Most of us can give you some advice or tell you the pros and cons of certain brands over others most of is can very objective too.

sweendogy · February 2012

Leases allow you to get more far with the least amt of money- I was throwing the option of leasing to our new contributor. I own 2 cars but have leased in the past when I was less liquid so i think it's a good option. Please spare us with the leader add spew, over have the 3 series sold are leased.

dino001 · February 2012

Leases allow you to get more far with the least amt of money- I was throwing the option of leasing to our new contributor

No, they don't. They allow you to think you are getting a better car for less money, just because you are paying less per month. Long term lease can be very, very expensive, if you don't know how to lease. "Low payment" lease is great to park the car and look at it - just not drive it. Yeah - then it is "cheaper". But when you actually need to get anywhere with your car, the "cheap" lease bites.

I'm with the nurse of this - leases are NOT for "beginners". You need to educate yourself before you go there, otherwise they'll skin you alive. You need to know exactly how many miles you need, what depreciation, residual, money factor are, how to calculate lease, what are traps, why big downpayment is a bad idea, etc. And boy, at less than 50 grand a year you have no business even coming to a new car lot at lux brand dealership. I know it's harsh, but that's the reality. Our country is in its current trouble exactly because people think they could get a half milion house on 50 grand. Same applies to cars. You get it when you can afford it, not sooner.

sweendogy · February 2012

For 400 bux a month - you can get a Acura tsx-yea it's 10k miles a year - but again it's an option for some. A long term lease =what? 3 years are the avg lease deals. So for 14400 you can get a tsx for 3 years.

The point is this may be an option - you need to educate for sure before doing it - just like when you buy a car you should - or sailing a boat.

Pretty sure you and nurse - are one and the same when it comes to hateing leasing , which is fine but it is an option for some. No money or little down, smaller payment, works for some. Look at all those 3 series rolling around - you think most are paying cash, financing or leasing those puppies. I'm sure a good % of those people don't make this big bux like you and nurse.

dino001 · February 2012

By "long term lease is expensive" I didn't mean a long lease term, I meant that in the long run leasing costs more, as in after three years you need another one, and then another one, which adds up to total cost higher than buying a car and keeping it (leasing new cars means you absorb steepest portion of the depreciation every time you do it).

I don't hate leases, not at all. I think their fine for people who know what they're doing. In fact, for some brands and models, lease is better than buying as long as you get the right mileage. Manufacturers sometimes subsidize leases more than they do purchases (by e.g. inflating residuals and/or use money factors below market rates), which makes them more attractive, even with larger fees (e.g. $800 acquisition fee translates to over half percentage point in a loan). In a sense, when you get inflated residual on a lease, you buy then a smaller portion of a vehicle than you should (the rest is picked up the manufacturer). If market residual value is 42%, but the lease says it is 52%, then you get discount eual to 10% of MSRP, even before you negotiate the price (usually it is not as drastic). The fees (acquisition and disposal) will take some of that back, but if money factor is also low then it could be a winner.

My issue is that a lot of people don't understand all aspects of leasing, don't understand true costs of leasing that goes beyond monthly payment, but do it anyway and then get burned. Just because something is less per month, doens't mean it's cheaper.

dino001 · February 2012

So for 14400 (10k miles a year ) you can get a tsx for 3 years.

Then drive to your friend's house, show it to them, then go to the park, snap a few pictures in a nice scenery, then you park it in your garage and take a bus to work.

I rest my case.

sweendogy · February 2012

Well said, I have a 07 g35x which I bought new and has 30k miles - have some good fun snapping pixs in a car I own- and the 3 year lease at 10k a year would have fit me well. So what's your point ? You can Taylor a lease to meet your millage needs, most of these cars have excellent residual values after 3 years I'm sure the extra 2k miles won't cost that much per month. You rest your case- ok great. Point is may people who can't throw down 20-30-50k for a car can actually get the car they want. Sure they pay for depeshiation - but so do hey people who buy cars as well. Can't wait for flightnurse response - "leader adds, I got a BMW with m sport for 10k under sticker, lease would of cost me 15k more over 4 years, experimental dealer sale, blabble."

flightnurse · February 2012

Sweeny please do not put words in my mouth. For the record I like leases and for only certain people. I'll give you an example, my sister doesn't drive much, she wants a new car every few years, she can afford the payments. She leased a new CTS last year, got a great deal. $800 out of pocket and $499/m for 3 years, she gets 10K a year for mileage, however she doesn't drive much, about 8K year, so a lease was perfect for her.

A lease is not good for someone young because 1) the mileage restriction on leases (however you can negotiate increase mileage into lease payments.) 2) leasing its for everybody.

flightnurse · February 2012

Sweeny you have a real problem, my BMW was not a ad leader, most ad leaders are stripped down cars, just like the G37 that is advertised this past weekend in Phoenix, two infiniti dealers (btw owned by the same company) had a G37 Journey for $34K or $299/m with $4500 down and 10K/yr mileage.

sweendogy · February 2012

I love when you say leader add, or ad leader it's great.- all the examples I Have used on leases are from company websites- no where else, not dealers or anything from a local news paper, no local dealers, the actual companies deals. Let's end the leader add agrument as we have proved you are really keen on pointing out. No one said your BMW 328 m package or your 535 that your partner just ordered is a leader ad, but some here have questioned your experimental dealer story you told, I Have not mentioned it was a leader ad situation, so I don't see my problem. I have questioned why you and Dino are quick to shut down leases - when infact the company you bought a car from leases 50% of those same cars.
Again your sisters story, while long, is a great example of a lease that worked for the user- and I was pointing out to the new poster this might be a way to go. It's a situational thing, some people cant afford to buy a new car every 3 years but can afford to lease those same cars.

tlong · February 2012

Leases allow you to get more far with the least amt of money Per MONTH. Leases in the long run tend to be more expensive. For those who can deduct (business owners) or those who want new wheels every 3 years, leases MIGHT make sense. For those who keep their wheels a bit longer or want the lowest overall cost, leases make no sense at all.

nyccarguy · February 2012

Flightnurse hit the nail right on the head. Too many people use leasing as a way to get a cheap payment on a more expensive vehicle. So many people DO NOT understand leasing, but do it using a big capitalized cost reduction & paying the taxes up front (both big no-nos) in order to get a less expensive car payment. Notice I didn't say cheap.

Leasing is more expensive in the long run absolutely. Some lease for business purposes. I can tell you 1st hand that my accountant said it is easier to "write off" a monthly lease payment than it is to depreciate the value of a vehicle on a yearly basis.

Pretty much all of the ELLPS leases I see advertised in the paper are for 10K per year. There's even a Mercedes Dealer that if you read the fine print gives a whopping 7500 miles per year. A lot of people do take these 10K per year leases & go over, but there are people who like to lease a nice new car every 3 years to drive back & forth to the train station.

Kyfdx once perfectly said "leasing should be looked at as an alternate way of financing.". So true. If you can afford to pay cash or the 60 month car payment on whatever ELLPS you like, but an inflated residual or super cheap money factor that makes your payment a lot less expensive and you can live within the mileage limitations, than go for it.

flightnurse · February 2012

Sweeny, first off for the car to be "considered" a leader car it has to be advertise, my 328 was not advertised. Second, we haven't ordered our 535, again not a leader car, not too sure how a car that hasn't been built is a leader? Explain that one....

BTW, Audi has a great lease on a A8, $8500 down and payment of $1199/m I didn't catch the mileage restriction, figured you like to know that.

sweendogy · February 2012

I'm out on this conversation - here is what I learned- a lease is not for everyone, but could fit some, but be smart about it. No one understands leader adds more then flightnurse, in fact I think he might have created the ter along with "experimental car sale." guy asks for options about how he can get into the ELLlps- and we get off track. Do you think we will ever hear from that cat again?

oac4 · February 2012

I have a question to post for help and apologies that its not an entry lux sedan... On the dedicated MB forum, its pretty dead whereas this is a very active forum... Hence my posting it here. Will appreciate all comments regardless

I have a 25K budget and wants a used SLK55. For that budget, what I can find are high mileage non-CPOs (70K+ miles) but fuly loaded, of course, as most SLK55s are. I am about to pull the trigger on an '05 model. Clean, drives perfect, but from a private seller, so need an MB mech check out before I sign.

What should I worry about this car? Always wanted one and now very excited to have found one at my price and hoping it is "the one"....

fedlawman · February 2012

"What should I worry about this car?"

The cost of maintenance.

I hope you have deep pockets and a good mechanic...

flightnurse · February 2012

Have VERY deep pockets and ask these questions in the MB forum, there you will have people who have more knowledge of that car, or do a search on the net for a dedicated MB forum.

graphicguy · February 2012

oac....ypu're on absolutely the right track. New, that SLK55 was expensive. You're buying a used one. Good call on having a MB tech look at it.
Let us kniw if it works out, along with the deal details.

Good luck!

oac4 · February 2012

The car is in an MB shop for a top-to-bottom inspection (per-sales) today. Keeping fingers crossed on what they find. If everything checks out then it's a go for me. I really want a roadster to add to the stable. I know it won't come cheap to fix, but what the heck... you only have time to enjoy life and all of your hard work... so just do it...

sweendogy · February 2012

enjoy brother-- good luck--

sweendogy · February 2012

today in the parking lot i saw a manual 328xi sports wagon with the M sport package-- pretty cool looking rig for a wagon -

flightnurse · February 2012

How does it look differently then a regular wagon?

sweendogy · February 2012

Now I didnot see the front end - but the bar has the cool sports dam underneath the trunk- it also had a body colored rear spoiler - M badge on steering wheel and stick- plus the black was a dark- wonder if was the standard black or the 800 dollar option- i had no idea the wagon could come with the m pack and awd

flightnurse · February 2012

You can get it in a 6 spd manual too.

sweendogy · February 2012

I mentioned that above- I think that's pretty cool.

nkeen · February 2012

I drove an F30 328i last weekend - a Sportline with 8 speed auto. My current car is a 2006 E90 325i with sport suspension and 6 speed manual. Thoughts:
1) The steering is lighter but also feels oddly disconnected on the new car -- it has lost that firm directness I like on the E90.
2) The N20 four banger is powerful but has some lag. Not as sweet as the less powerful unboosted six.
3) The sports seats in my car can seem like instruments of torture at times. The new ones are no better -- two pointy things jutting into my kidneys. Why can't BMW get this right? VW does in the GTI.
4) Although the base pricing is not much more higher than the E90, getting the options I want means buying a lot of superfluous stuff that I don't (for instance a $3,600 package to get HID headlights), so the car ends up being a lot more expensive.
I drove a Camaro SS manual with Hurst shifter and FE4 suspension and a Subaru WRX on the same day as the F30. Both, in their respective ways, were much more fun to drive -- the WRX was a thrill to toss around and had real character. I'm afraid that BMW might be losing the plot for the sake of the see-and-be-seen audience in the US and anticipated sales volume in China.

nyccarguy · February 2012

We see it is very easy to push the price of an F30 328i to $45,000 +. The enthusiast in all of us needs to consider that for the same $45K, you can find yourself a CPO (or just plain used) 2008 M3 Sedan.

nkeen · February 2012

There was a 328i Modern Line on the floor listing for over $50K.

nyccarguy · February 2012

Thanks for your F30 328i write up. How many miles have you racked up on your E90 325i? Have you had any problems with it? How come you are looking at the F30?

nkeen · February 2012

Low mileage -- 48,000. One problem -- the thermostat failed around 20K -- I guess causing it to run cold, but no symptoms -- found during inspection at the dealership. I also had the dealer replace the driver's seat under warranty as a crease in the leatherette was starting to show fabric webbing. The first round of run-flats were a bit brick like, but the technology seems to have improved a lot with the newer tires (Bridgestone RE050As).

Whatever its faults, I've owned the 325i far longer than any other car I've had. It's a beautifully built car, and really still looks close to new. It feels as though it were made to be driven fast safely, which it was. I like the original E90 better than its mid-cycle refresh, which seemed to complicate and compromise the lines a bit. Its predecessors were an Acura TL and a GTI. I started to dislike the TL almost as soon as I had it -- good engine, but clearly not engineered by people who really understood handling and feel. Horrible clutch and steering. I liked the Brazilian built GTI to drive, but it just fell apart piece by piece (transmission, trim, you name it) -- perceived rather than real quality.

dino001 · February 2012

I have one, including the stick shift. :P Slightly different in options: 328i (no "x", it is RWD) and it doesn't have M-pack (regular sports pkg for RWD already has sporst suspension and staggered tires, just like M, the difference is in wheels (17" vs 18") and some aesthetic treats, like no badging and front grille). It also has the rear spoiler. The long sunroof is the coolest.

Most people are surprised how sporty it looks. Deep see blue, just like the one on the photo (or is that one Le Mans blue, which is available only on M-packs?). I smile every time open the door and sit inside...

flightnurse · February 2012

The HID headlights are a standalone options for $900. Take look at BMW's web site. The steering can be fixed with the M steering option, however if you wait until July when the M sport package is available that will solve the problems. Before flying out to New York my partner and I stopped off at Chandler BMW, they have two F30's a fully loaded Sportline 335i 57K and a Modern for 48K. Before I give judgement I want to drive one with the M sport package, since my 2011 has that package. Of course the big push the salesman kept telling us was, you have more power and better fuel economy with the new engine.

dino001 · February 2012

All of this confirms to me never buy a "all-new" model in its first or even second year. Dealers will act like they're doing you a favor, manufacturers act like it's a such a breakthrough that it overshadows Moon landing, you have teething issues and the list goes on. Couple of years from now and silly options/packages either disapear or get more reasonable pricing. Base model usually costs about the same, or even more by a couple of hundreds, but more popular/valuable options get bundled in much more attractive packages. No more expensive wheels forced down your throat if you want a certain color. Certain thing also become standard of no cost options. This way you can get a $50K+ MSRP down by a few thousands. Best deals are usually mid-life "refreshed" models. Bugs worked out, aesthetics, improved and couple of things made standard.

sweendogy · February 2012

i agree- just hearing 57k for a loaded 335 is unreal- the 335xi will be 60k- for a ELLPS- thats a joke- its a great car, dont get me wrong but at that cost you can buy a street in detroit these days.

nyccarguy · February 2012

Ive tried to "build my own" 328i on BMW's website. It will not allow you to choose the Xenon headlight option without checking off the $3600 Premium Package.

If you drive the F30 328i M Sport & love it, you'd consider trading in your way cool M Sport Equipped '11 328i (6 Speed Stick) already?

lemmer · February 2012

I started to dislike the TL almost as soon as I had it -- good engine, but clearly not engineered by people who really understood handling and feel. Horrible clutch and steering.

To each his own. I find BMW clutches to be pretty mediocre and Acura clutches to be among the best.

markcincinnati · February 2012

Everything I have read about the Acura TL with a manual transmission makes it sound like the reviewer has found heaven behind the wheel. If you are having issues with the feel of your clutch or whatever issue you are having, take it to the dealer -- maybe you really do have an out of whack unit.

Regarding the handling, there too, I have found the Acura comparble to the 2009 Audi I had right before I got the 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance.

I just wish the thing had Audi seats in it.

flightnurse · February 2012

Regarding the HID lights, I was not aware about the force package, I'm sure once production is geared up and all models are in production things will change.

Nope, no trade in for me, we stopped by to talk to the sales guy about the535i or 550i, for 2012 the 550i now gets the 4.4l twin turbo that is in the M5. We drove both cars back to back and my partner really liked the 550i over the 535 you can't get a manual in the 535 but you can get one in 550i he likes that. So just hashing out details.

flightnurse · February 2012

explain what you mean be mediocre?

sweendogy · February 2012

I have never heard a complaint about the Acura clutch or shifter ever--- in fact I miss my 2000 GS-r because it was the nicest manual I have ever driven- I think you should bring it back for a check- I'm sure the Acura dealer has seen probably 2 other tl-s with stick in the past 5 years so dot be surprised I'd they don't know why to do with it. I think the bigger grip with the tL is its size, shape, performance and most of all looks. If this car was 5k less it's a steal- but it's priced against the g and anyone with a car magazine subscription or a pulse would pick the g - 10 out of 10 times.

nkeen · February 2012

Mine was a 2005 TL. The clutch was like an on/off switch. The steering was heavy, with asymmetrical loading left to right (many visits to the dealer to fix this, all unsuccessful). Turning the car on a twisty expressway was like winding and unwinding a heavy spring. The car never settled down in cruise -- always fighting the steering. Great stereo, though, and one of the few cars where the auto a/c was able to hold a comfort level at one temp setting regardless of humidity and sunlight. Brembo front brakes, as the manuals had at that time. I got rid of it after about 18 months. The TSX of around the same vintage was a better if uninspiring car.

plekto · February 2012

The clutch is actually better with a distinct on/off point. But the issue with the steering is because it's a front wheel drive car with manual. There is absolutely no way to fix it or alter the laws of Physics to make it work like a RWD car. The steering is also extremely dead feeling as far as feedback goes so that you get nothing and then tons of torque-steer in corners. (see Buick for this behavior)

Add in lower profile tires than it should be fitted with, plus unidirectional tires that fight each other (each side's tread wants to move the tire outwards) and it's a pretty miserable highway cruiser as well (note GM and Toyota have had this issue - the "fix" is to switch to non-directional tires)

It's a fancy Avalon. No surprise that it sucked as a makeshift sport sedan.

nkeen · February 2012

Perhaps so. There weren't that many changes to the E90 options structure over time, one notable exception being the removal of the sunroof from the standard equipment list on the 328i, a scenario carried over to the F30. The engines were the big midstream changes, to meet the Japanese competition.

I'd bet that a lot of thought has gone into the pricing structure in order to maximize the numbers and simplify the production process. Still, in a world where HIDs are now standard on a 2013 Mustang V6.....

Speaking of E90s, I think the best auto model to drive, by far, was the 335d. I once drove the 335i and 335d back to back. The diesel packed the wallop of a torquey American V8. The 335i lacked low end grunt and felt fussy be comparison -- I never drove the manual version but I'm sure that it would be much better.

nkeen · February 2012

The clutch is actually better with a distinct on/off point.

You need a definite zone of travel where it is engaged and a zone of travel where it is not engaged, but between those you want a zone of clean linear progression for smooth uptake.

Regarding the tires, I think it had Turanzas which distorted when parked overnight in the cold and then rumbled away in the morning. The TL seemed cobbled together by some design studio in California based on what focus groups told them constituted a driver's car. And it came close in many areas. I wish the BMW was half as comfortable. Great Honda V6 too.

nyccarguy · February 2012

I drove a (F10) 535 & 550 back to back at a BMW Ultimate Drive event with my Dad. I was impressed with the 535's power delivery. It did a great job merging and I got it up to about 90. It felt great, like it could cruise at that speed for a week.

The 550 was a flat out monster. Easily one of the fastest cars I've ever driven. "Engage the hyper drive chewy." On the same stretch of highway (Garden State Pakway in NJ right near the NY border), I hit 120 before I backed off. It was awesome.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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