Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

fedlawman · March 2012

"4000 is the new 3000."

And 300 is the new 200 (horsepower).

Kirstie_H · March 2012

They've clearly been taking queues from women's clothing sizing, except the other way around. Size 6 is the new size 10.

fedlawman · March 2012

All kinds of possibilities with that opening Kirstie...but I know better.

sweendogy · March 2012

How am miles are on your prelude and is it a stick?

nyccarguy · March 2012

My Prelude Type SH has 145,000 miles. Yes it's a stick. Type SH Preludes were only sold with a 5 speed manual transmission.

nyccarguy · March 2012

Stopped by a BMW dealer this evening on my way home from work to test drive a 2011 328xi. I dig it. The steering, suspension, handling... You all know the drill.

If I can get some more cash for my TSX, then I'm going to go through with it. I'll keep you all posted!

graphicguy · March 2012

nyc....I think I hear a "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" coming up. Would love to hear the particulars on the "deal".

I know you took good care of that Prelued. And, it has a really good following. But, I also know dealers would probably wholesale it, not because it's not worthwhile, but because of the 145K miles.

You know the drill. Stick an ad in the local newspaper and see what someone will give you for it if the dealership is lowballing you. Discounts on the '11 328 should be pretty hefty right now.

stickguy · March 2012

He's looking to trade the 2010 Acura TSX, and keep the Prelude forever.

What is it with guys here ditching their relatively new Acuras for BMWs?

plekto · March 2012

It's the fact that the new 3 series is a bit too heavy and a bit too isolated from the driving experience. The consensus on the new transmission is that it's not nearly as good as the previous generation model, either. Essentially the 3 series has priced and sized itself out of the market and a lot of people wish they had bought the 1 series instead.

Acura has the same problem as well. The current generation models are much larger than their predecessors and while they are nicer looking and feeling inside, they really don't drive any better. In fact, if anything, it's a bit worse for the same sort of reasons as the BMW. Unfortunately, Acura doesn't sell a smaller car than the TSX in the U.S.

Note, this also applies to many other makers. The CTS, for instance, is a 5 series competitor and doesn't belong here either. The new ATS should, though. The G37 is honestly right at the upper end of what's acceptable, especially since you really don't need the AWD version. AWD is only a must for FWD cars in this class. But it's still quite heavy.

Now, my favorite car in this class, is the RX-8. Yes, I know, the stupid rear doors aren't exactly styled and put on right, but it's really a sedan masquerading as a "coupe". 3000lbs almost exactly and it handles like a dream as you'd expect. It might not be the fastest or the best on a test track, but it dodges in and out of traffic like a go-kart by comparison to most other cars.

flightnurse · March 2012

NYC is looking at a 2011 328ix, so your rant doesn't work. BTW, have you driven a 2012 3 series yet or is your rant purely speculation?

The RX8 is a great car, however it LOVES to drink oil and fuel, and why does it love to drink fuel, because he have to rev the crap out of it to just drive the thing.

m6user · March 2012

RX-8 is a Mazda and Mazda, while nice drivers, are not remotely considered to be luxury or even "near-luxury". Acura is coming with the ILX this late spring or summer. A smaller replacement for the TSX and can be had in a stick with a little over 200hp I believe. Basically, it's a luxury Civic SI and from what I saw at the auto show looks very nice style wise and the interior treament makes you forget what a disaster the Civic is. Pretty well done and will come in in the high twenties.

plekto · March 2012

I did drive the new generation 3 series and the manual transmission was a bit off and the steering was number than I'd like. It doesn't have the feel of, say, the old E46, or the E36. It's odd in a way. You want performance, but if it's too isolated and soft, it tends to make it feel more like a video game than a driving experience.

billyperksii · March 2012

Do you believe this guy- a RX8.

flightnurse · March 2012

The adaptive steering package takes care of that problem, which I'm betting will come standard in the M sport package coming this summer.
I didn't think the transmission was a problem.

flightnurse · March 2012

It is a great sports car, but talk about maintenance heavy car....

billyperksii · March 2012

That's my point- he was rambling about the TL's weight and performance and for the class that the RX8 is in-the RX is considered mediocre.
I think the 0-60 time for this car is approaching 8 secs- not that I care.
I love Mazda's- I had the Millenna (1st car after graduation) but the RX I think I can live without.

nyccarguy · March 2012

Stickguy beat me to the punch. I'm looking to trade-in my 2010 Acura TSX w/ Tech pkg (48,600 miles, Black/Black) for a 2011 E90 328xi sedan.

The salesman I dealt with last night was a fellow enthusiast who has been selling BMWs for 7 years (5 @ this dealer). His daily driver is a 335xi w/ a stick. During the test drive I asked him what his opinion of the new F10 328i was. He really likes the 2.0L 4 cyl turbo engine & the 8 speed automatic. He said they definitely softened up the ride (he doesn't like). When I asked about the new electric power steering, he replied: "Not a fan."

I will keep you guys updated as well as all my friends on the other boards here on Town Hall.

stickguy · March 2012

this is a new 2011 leftover, right? Or is it a demo of some kind? you probably said elsewhere but it has slipped my mind!

nyccarguy · March 2012

It is a brand new 2011. Still at the port actually. But all the cars I'm looking at are new.

The dealer had a 335xi (E90) sitting in the showroom without navigation.

fedlawman · March 2012

Not to stray too far off topic, but that new RWD Toyota/Subaru is looking very interesting...

stickguy · March 2012

If they just had a moonroof available I would be done...

kyfdx · March 2012

So what's up with the insurance settlement?

fedlawman · March 2012

Still pending.

I put together a large package including all of my documents and sent it to them for review. I should get an answer by the end of this week WRT any increase in their appraised value.

I'm not optimistic and fully anticipate hiring an appraiser and taking it to arbitration, unless...

I told my brother that I expect him to compensate me for the difference between what insurance pays me and the car's "real world" value. I will leave it to him to decide to roll the dice and pay for arbitration or just write me a check for the difference.

Either way, I should know by this weekend which way it's going to go.

In the meantime, by best friend told me he's thinking about selling his '05 997... I'm hoping things fall into place.

flightnurse · March 2012

997, very nice.... I test drove a 05 Boxster S a while back, have to say I almost traded my 05 in for that car, what a sweet ride. After that day, I have stopped looking at Porsche's, they will get me into trouble...

fedlawman · March 2012

I like the 997, but if I am completely honest with myself, it's a little soft. Too easy to drive and too comfortable.

I really want a 993, but I know the 997 is the better car for me.

kyfdx · March 2012

Just for my own edification, what sort of money for the M3? $20K-$25K? Or, more than that?

I'd pick the 993, too... but, at some point, it's nice to drive a newer car..

graphicguy · March 2012

Sorry about that nyc, I mistakenly thought you were going to trade the Prelude.

Hope things work out for that '11 328i. Or, perhaps make a run at the 335i xDrive sitting in the showroom (sounds tasty)?

graphicguy · March 2012

I'd fall all over myself if an opportunity arose that I could plant my derriere in a 993 at a reasonable cost.

But, like kyfdx, I'm more of a "new car" guy. There's always that nagging feeling that the previous owner(s) of a used vehicle did something to it that would cause some catastrophic failure further down the road. Or, that they didn't treat or care for the car as meticulously as I would.

I'm strange like that, though.

qbrozen · March 2012

the intermediate shaft failures have scared me off the Porsches. I really really wanted to get one this last time out ... just couldn't bring myself to take the risk.

markcincinnati · March 2012

I drove both the G and the TL at speeds up to 100MPH, and I had just come from driving the Audi S4 (also at high speeds) prior to driving the TL.

The G seemed like a shoebox on wheels (at the time my daily driver was a 2009 A4 w/sport package.)

The TL Advance SH-AWD was the closest car to an S4 that I had tested (and I had tested quite a few.)

So, the answer to the question is I did drive the cars more than around the block and way faster than 30MPH. :surprise:

markcincinnati · March 2012

The wheelbase of the TL is 109". The wheelbase of the A4 and G is longer. The width of my A4 was close to 72", about the width of a TL. The length of the TL, too very close to the A4 and G. Audis are always given crap for being porky and nose heavy.

The Audi, of the three examples, would be my first choice -- if money was no object. The Audi A4 2.0T Prestige with sport package was way more money per month than a TL (or a G.) The G was so tiny, so narrow, I felt like I was in one of my wife's three Audi TT's -- I felt like a bug in it. I noticed no loss of cabin space from my '09 A4 when I went to the TL.

In terms of handling, the A4 when pushed hard into a corner understeers -- even with the 19" sport package; at the same speed the torque vectoring of the TL AWD manages to tame what would have to be noticable understeer. And, despite the sweet 2.0T engine, the 3.7 in the TL is more potent.

The TL is on the cutting edge of ugly, I will not argue that point. The Audi's interior is so much better than anyone else's it's not a contest, so the TL's nice leather and fit and finish don't impress me since I was used to the Audi. The G's interior is nice, too, but again it isn't an Audi.

By what measures is the TL a boat -- it certainly seems to compete with the Audi even though the Audi does have a longer wheelbase. Or is the Audi in the nautical class too? :confuse:

plekto · March 2012

the intermediate shaft failures have scared me off the Porsches. I really really wanted to get one this last time out ... just couldn't bring myself to take the risk.

The reason for this is actually the oil. The engine was designed for high-zinc oils that are common in Europe and were judged to be minimally acceptable in the U.S. at the time. But the EPA drove the maximum levels to 1200ppm and people started to notice a few problems. Then they dropped the levels to 800ppm and people started using synthetics with sometimes none of the original anti-wear additives in them. Suddenly everyone's engines were eating themselves.

There is a company that makes a properly designed replacement part for it, though (new bearing sets), and if the vehicle doesn't have this "upgrade" already, then deduct the price from the vehicle as any of that series engine will eventually fail, guaranteed, without the mod, as you cannot physically buy high zinc oil in the U.S. any more due to the EPA's idiocy.

The problem was that the additives traditionally caused cats to die in 50-60K miles. Now the government mandates 100K+ for cats, which meant less additives. The oil makers were caught in the middle. This is exactly like the paint fiasco that happened in the 80s and 90s, where paint was peeling off of cars due to the EPA requiring different types of paint formulations. Eventually they fixed it around 2000 or so, but in this case, it's a generation of engines that won't make it past 150K, (anything that's based off of engineering previous to ~2000 or so) and some like the Boxster and Rotary engines that rev really fast just simply die in half that time. Note - this also affects a lot of S2000s, which routinely get revved hard.

And, yes, it really does happen. I lost my 67 Mercedes' engine after two oil changes when the EPA switched the levels without telling anyone. Working fine and ~5000 miles later (was my daily driver at the time) the entire internals were shot. Not even re-buildable. The oil simply provided no protection and it ate the top end, bottom end, the bearings, and even the gaskets. No smoke or issues and then a pile of parts. So I feel for the poor Porsche owners as I've been there myself.

As of 2009, Porsche has finally redesigned the engines and the problems are controlled if you use high mileage non-synthetic in the engines. (Castrol or similar) But a lot of people still run racing oil in them and ignore the EPA's "requirements". I'd do the same too, if I had a $50K Porsche sitting in my driveway. Better to be safe than sorry when a rebuild can cost 10K+ on these things.

All of that said, the Boxster *is* a good ride. The one to stay away from, though, is the Cayman S. It's significantly more rigid and quieter. It's downright dangerous as you find yourself having a hard time just pulling yourself out of the seat at the showroom, let alone de-scrambling your brain's idea of "normal" after a test-drive. :P

qbrozen · March 2012

There is a company that makes a properly designed replacement part for it

Yes, and I looked into that. It is still a big big job to do the swap. If you can find the right car from a Porsche specialist or private owner who can tell you if its been done, great. I couldn't find any such vehicle in my budget, however. Its just something to be aware of.

fedlawman · March 2012

"Just for my own edification, what sort of money for the M3? $20K-$25K? Or, more than that?"

The insurance company is sticking to their guns at $17,300 ACV. :mad:

I'm into it for more than $40K, and it's worth about $25K real world.

cdnpinhead · March 2012

The TL is on the cutting edge of ugly. . .

Phrases like that are why I look forward to reading your posts.

My TSX is of the previous generation, and the TLs of that era, as well as the TSXs, are much more pleasing to my eye than what's being peddled today. The new TSX is considerably larger than mine, and worse in a number of other ways as well, IMNHO.

Glad you're enjoying your car.

kyfdx · March 2012

Good luck... Hope you end up with something closer to $25K ..

nyccarguy · March 2012

Best of luck to you fedlawman. Keep fighting and arguing until you get what you want.

fedlawman · March 2012

Thanks to both of you.

I spoke to my brother today and told him where we are. We settled on $22.5K and I left it to him to decide if he wants to try for more through arbitration (at his expense) or just write me a check for $4500.

My mechanic is happy. I told him he could buy the salvage. With his knowledge of repair and access to parts, $4300 is an awesome deal for that car.

fedlawman · March 2012

Thanks to gbrozen and plekto for the info on the IMS failures. I had heard about them but never researched it.

Definitely good too know. I'm not scared, but definitely will be diligent thanks to you.

stickguy · March 2012

all this talk about them made me remember I always wanted one. But no way I can keep track of the model #s (993, 997).

But, this one, I am in love with. Perfect colors, obviously babied. And the right tranny. I have no clue of course about the price (and no, I am not in position to pay this much for a toy!)

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2892077512.html

fedlawman · March 2012

That's a 996. I'd pass - especially at $40,000.

qbrozen · March 2012

gorgeous color combo. I'd never buy a vert, though. Just not my thing to add weight and remove rigidity.

stickguy · March 2012

you talking about me or the car?

I would be happy with a coupe with a moonroof though. I could suck it up.

qbrozen · March 2012

I'm not going there.
:P

fedlawman · March 2012

RE: My M3.

I got a call from my brother today. He's decided to be done with it and he's going to send me a check. My good friend is going to buy the salvage so it will be going to a good home and brought back to life for him to enjoy. He's also willing to sell me his very nice E30 325i.

I won't get my car back, but this is about as good an outcome as I could have hoped for.

Thanks again to everyone here for letting me cry on your shoulders. This thread has the best members on Edmunds.

sweendogy · March 2012

Tsx now Porsche in this chat - wow - when does the civic and hummer join?

fedlawman · March 2012

No, it doesn't work that way.

it goes TSX, Porsche, then Tesla, then GSX-R 750, then the moderator puts us back on track and we return to talking about how overpriced Bimmers are and how the G37 is a much better value...

sweendogy · March 2012

Your right I forgot the title of this room. Let's get back to talking about the 993. Makes sense- make up your mind,trade the tsx in- get a BMW or Porsche or keep the tsx you love.

fedlawman · March 2012

Actually, I did really like my TSX (6MT; Milano Red w/Tan interior), but I sold it in 2005.

sweendogy · March 2012

6mt nice shifter on those.. lets get back to 993 talk-- and your comment on being a better value is correct about the g37- its a better value then the bmw -no question about that.

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