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My Prelude feels perfect at 75, even though the tach needle is over 3K. Anything over that and I feel I'm driving the Prelude "fast,"
My former TSX felt just right at 80. Which seems logical given that it is heavier than my Prelude, has more sound deadening material, and an actual overdriven 5th gear.
I've had the BMW up at 90 for a few brief moments and the car was as you and my wife have pointed out is "scary fast." The car is just inceredibly planted at speed.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
anyway, that is why I have fully embraced the mantra: depreciation is your friend! Assuming you aren't the first buyer. the couple of CPO 328i models I found last week (a 2008 and a 2009) were going to cost about what a load up Focus would, or a mid-level Camry. IOW, affordable, and a very realistic alternative to brand new.
Though I still want to see a Dodge Dart in person!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Just a personal note about those '08 & '09 CPO 328is (plural). Some of the '09s came with these 16" wheels standard. They look small on the E90 IMHO.
My Mom had an '08 328xi for 3 years & almost 60K miles. Not only was it a great car to drive, but absolutely bulletproof.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
@nyccarguy - congrats. It is gorgeous. Makes me really miss by ex-BMW. My G cannot match the smoothness of my ex-BMW. HP ain't everything.
My argument has never been the g as a better car- but a better value for a lot of the same things the BMW does. The g or Acura might never be the top pick for car and driver mag, or the "true driver"- but in consumer reports they have consistently ranked better. An unbiased news rag with no advertising support- I think the true driver, a person who wants the true sport and performance is going to get the 335 or 328 - with sport and stick. Other then that set up these cars in this class are very close regardless of price. -
Now I would love to add the Chrysler 300C to the list, after having one for 8 days I have to say for the price you get a lot for your money. When the 8 spd auto goes into the car for MY 2013 this will be a car that will give Infiniti and BMW a run for their money...
My partner hasn't made up is mind what car he wants, he was edging towards a 535i, I was sort of pushing towards a 740i (same engine with 15+ more hp.) But he started looking at used A7s he is looking at price (trying to save some money.) So who knows what we will buy, but for him price is playing a factor.
With the 8 spd coming to 300C, the might G will have major competition in the best bang for the buck. For under 40K the 300c will be a major player. Just as long as Chrysler doesn't program the 300c to go into "eco" mode so quickly even BMW will have to watch out.
Fun odd fsct- Jeep and the c300 share the same parent - please give us updates on when to expect the 8speed auto becomes available.
BTW men - I turned 36 today!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
It seems like anytime someone drives a car with leather, some power and decent driving attributes they think it's ELLPS. Use some discretion folks. The 8spd is offered in the Charger. Again, leather, decent handling, 8spd tranny and good power from a v6. Should it also be ELLPS?
Personally, I think there is more to being a luxury brand than nice leather. Including driving experience, styling that holds up over time, amenities, cutting edge tech, customer service, warranty, dealer experience and overall quality of components. I don't think Chrysler is there yet....maybe a couple of pieces but not the whole pie.
I was 36 once. A long time ago. A real long time.
I have a birthday in a few weeks, but it is much more renowned than 36 (as a milestone!)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Go buy a new G37 then talk about how wonderful it is, stop reading the mag's and coming off as an expert.
The nav is very good, tech in the car is good. It's an acceleration monster and really hugs the road. The wood trim gives the interior a very classy look. Cup holders stink, but I love the electric telescoping steering wheel. Highway mileage is decent, trunk is roomy. I love that hids are standard. And I have all the goodies for a measly 45k. Bt integration is awesome, and the Bose is good. Non sport seats are comfortable.
So while I love bmws, the g37 is not an also-ran and in almost every comparo, comes in second for good reason. I tested out the awd system during that freak October storm and I was impressed.
As i started out this post, the g is a fine car in its own right.
Fact, the only LX car NOT to have the 8 spd for MY 2012 is the V8 cars, whether they are Dodge or Chrysler, that will change for MY2013 when all LX cars will get the new 8 spd auto.
Fact, Chrysler was the Luxury division, granted they suffered in the past, but I can state things have gotten better, and yes, they should be in the ELLPS. The feel of the leather, switches, steering, handling and the closing of the doors have a great feel to them, if you haven't driven one then it is hard to make comments about the cars.
This makes no sense, the Nissan Versa and Infiniti G37 are from the same parent too, so when we can expect the Versa to get a V6 option?
Do all manufacturers who put leather seats in their vehicles belong in this discussion?
flightnurse and nyc....I'm with you on the 0-60 thing. If that was the end all to beat all, then this discussion would only be about Mustang GTs/Boss/KC, Camaro SSs, Charger/Challenger RTs and 'Vettes.
Then again, as we all know, nothing really competes with a G series, regardless of the parameter you use......well, except maybe a Jeep.
Once again, have driven the new Chrysler 300c? I think I know the answer already. I dont think you have, so why are saying that the 300c shouldn't be here if you have no first hand knowledge of the current 300c?
As to the cars themselves, I would discard the 300C since it is a FS barge. And if you are including that (maybe even if not), why isn't the Hyundai Genesis included? Simply because you have to go to the Hyundai dealer to get one?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
No, I haven't driven the 300, but what should be litmus test for including an ELLPS in this category. It has to be more than leather seats.
2. I realize the 8spd is only offered on the V6 now. That is why I mentioned that the 200 can have the same engine as the 300, the v6.
Please read posts more carefully.
If marketing jargon is the criteria for inclusion then many manufacturers would be discussed here. One doesn't have to drive every car made to know that certain manufacturers and certain cars shouldn't be included here. There are many ways to determine through magazines, auto shows, dealer showrooms, etc. and the test drive is just one factor(albeit a major factor). There are many aspects as to what makes a luxury car and carmaker and, yes, it does include the dealer experience. Go to your local Chysler/Dodge dealer and see how it compares to a BMW or Lexus dealer and honestly report which ones feel like a luxury carmaker and which one doesn't.
However, everything I say is based on the premise that the cars discussed here are supposed to be from what is commonly as a luxury carmaker. If that is wrong and it just depends on any one members perception of what a luxury car is without regard to brand, size, price than I will stand corrected.
When my lease is up, I'm going to have to make a decision. I'm obviously going to drive an F30 (4 cyl 3 series), but I think with similar equipment to my 2011 will be priced out of my league. The IS is going to be all new. The G37 is going to be all new. MB might get some sense knocked into it and offer the C350 with 4matic.
I might not like any of these and want to buy my 2011 back from BMW or buy a similar 2011 328xi CPO with 25,000 or 30,000 miles (instead of the 50K mine will have).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Landscape should change a bit and it's going to be interesting to see what happens with this new Caddy as well- looks like a power player on paper.
If when my lease is up, I can get into a G37 with 100 more horsepower for $100 a month less or $50 a month less on a lease, then I'd most certainly go for it. If MB offers up the serious "conquest cash" that they did last year for the C - Class and I can drive one for less than my current 328xi, I'll drive a Mercedes (C350 4matic).
In 30 months, I might not exclusively shop this ELLPS class either. I might dig the X1 or a CPO X3 with the N55... Who knows.
For now I LOVE MY BMW 328xi!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think his statement has more value then others talking about m3s or Porsches that are clearly out off the category all together.
Don't forget all of these cars have some competition on almost every level and some marquees, e.g. Hyundai produces the genesis and equus, which some may say are luxury cars, but the dealerships don't pass the litmus test of a luxury dealership. Neither do Chrysler dealerships. Especially if one uses Lexus as the benchmark.
Maybe this particular thread has outlived it's usefulness due to the changed landscape of the auto world.
nyc....BMW does indeed discount their cars pretty heavily....especially with lease subsidies. I think I got $7K+ off on mine (including a hefty $2,500 rebate). You got almost as much off with the addition of favorable money factors and residuals.
This is not distressed merchandise. They are "best in class" vehicles.
That blunts things as far as making that financial commitment.
That said, if I was staring at a ~$50K '12 328i, with a 4 cyl, with little to no discount, I'd be moving down the road into something else, for certain.
I've tried to warm up to Mercedes a few times, both C and E class. I can not do it. For the life of me, I can't see the appeal....especially for the price. They don't do one thing that's better than the competition.
To add insult to injury, you can get a Chrysler 300C, which has a honkin' hemi, that rides and handles about the same as an E Class with a 6 cyl. And, it has better tech features. So, maybe the 300 does belong here.
I bought a '12 C350 in November. Drove other ELLPS's. The Benz was the clear winner. I'm a car enthusiast for many decades, read C&D, and know BMW's reputation. Was quite surprised how much I didn't like the BMW. Interior was bad, very bad, looks the same for the past 10 years. Driving was nothing special, the salesman encouraged us to drive very quickly around his route which included a traffic circle as well as interstate. Just didn't do it for us.
The MB handled much better and rode better and was better in every regard. We would have bought an A4 well before a BMW. It's really personal preference. We got the C350 for $43k out the door with 18's, keyless go, no NAV. Most features are standard on the 350 such as upgraded sound system.
I do like the way BMWs look. There are way too many on the road now - I see more of them than Accords. The interior and driving dynamics - not so much.
BMW 3 Series Rules The Universe, I mean Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan board. Congrats on your C350. I'm glad you are enjoying it. It is a beautiful car. It's also got a ton of standard features. So much so that I don't know why anybody would consider a "loaded up" C250 because it gets to the same sticker price very easily.Just curious as to where you live. In many of our necks of the woods here, we like to have our ELLPS fitted with some sort of AWD system. MB only offers the C300 w/ 4Matic AWD.
Which 3 series did you drive? Did you drive the C250 & C350?
Thanks for sharing about your C350.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2018 430i Gran Coupe
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Personally I wouldn't mind the smaller engine as much as the turbo. Just don't trust the long-term reliability of turbos. Have heard bad things about the Audi's and VWs ("cripplingly expensive to repair").
My wife said get a powerful engine and, man, who could argue with that?
I live in NC so no need for AWD. I heard the C350 AWD drive will be out soon though.
Getting ready to leave on an 8-hour trip in a few minutes... in the Toyota Minivan Argggggggg!!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
So, if a BMW is thought to be problematic, regardless of the facts, CR rates them as such. Perception is reality is CR's world.
I agree with you. I doubt CR sells many subscriptions into the BMW market.
For decades, they put different values on cars than those of us in here do. In CR's world, everyone should be driving a Camry, Corolla, Civic or an Accord.
I haven't read their mag in 15 years. When I did read their rag, I didn't find one thing about their ratings and opinions I agreed with. I just hear people in these sorts of threads talk about them.
Too much conspiracy theory, IMHO. It is actually much simpler. Besides acceleration fiasco, Toyota was actually going through a quality dip during mid-to-late '00. It was related to their goal of being No. 1 in sales, catching a moderate case of GMnitis, absorbing too many new suppliers too quickly and attempting too aggressive pricing cuts to meet the points (and sales quotas). The acceleration thing was just the apex of the process. Regardless whether the issue was real or imaginary (pedal was real and they kicking and screaming admitted it, electronics may have been imaginary) , CR simply noticed what people did - their new spanking Camries and Lexuses (Lexi?) were NOT as reliable as the previous ones. They had no choice, but take them off that "automatic recommendation" list. BTW automatic recommendation really meant that if a new model tested well enough to get positive review, they would not wait for the reliability data to recommend it, as history of previous models had a consistent track record of good reliability. Toyota simply lost that streak. There are plenty of models that have good reliability, but are not recommended due to lower score in tests and vice versa - good score, but reliability below average, or "New/no data".
It is all consistent. One can dispute their ratings (they tend to focus things that enthusiasts simply don't care about and other items that are very important to the enthusiasts get low weight in their score), also their reliability survey method can sometimes be disputed, as well. I just don't exactly believe in conspiracy that the results are predetermined. BMW 3-series is usually "in or out", depending on the year, point in the cycle. They usually get top ratings in their category (so even CR likes them as ELLPS), but the recommendation is occasionally withheld, when the survey data shows consistent issues with significant repairs, regardless whether paid by the owner, or in warranty.
BTW, Honda is going through similar crisis today as Toyota did in late '00. It is not related to reliability, but to overall design/quality feel. The new civic is such a flop (not in real terms, vs. expectations and competition progress) that Honda decided to accelerate the refreshing cycle.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That is not entirely accurate. They place vehicles in different categories. It just so happens that small and midsize sedans are most known and followed by people, hence Camry or Corolla. They have other categories, too and occasionally test them. BMW 3-series consistently wins its own class (sporty upscale sedan) in terms of points, it even sometimes gets recommendations, which it can later lose due to reliability data. Same often happens to Passat - it very often is on top of the ratings, but it does not get recommended due to reliability. Then Camry/Accord step in, as being half-notch below, but with better record.
They do not say "you should buy ..., period". They say, "If you want a familly sedan below $30K, you should buy...". Big difference.
In other words, their criteria and values are not as different as yours, but they use a two-stage evaluation process. Step one is the car merrits, as what pertains to its category. You score above certain threshold, you become a candidate. Step two is reliability data. It just so happens that those darlings of ours also happen to be more prone to failures than those more hum-drum offerings of others.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Yeah, I'm going to take your perception as reality. Got any proof that people filling out their surveys are just lambs led to slaughter and who can't seperate fantasy from reality? Gimme a break.
It's more for items where there isn't a wide array of difference in performance and options - say, toasters. Toasters have one job - to turn bread that isn't toast into toasted bread. Some may do it a bit faster or more evenly, and may last longer, but that's about all there is to rate.
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I believe the Genesis is a luxury car, for Hyundai. For the size, equipment and, price they have a great product. Give then another year or two and I truly believe they will be a big player in the luxury car market.
People laughed at Acrua, Lexus and Infiniti when they started and today, we have people who do nothing but praise them like they are gods.