Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ivan_99 · April 2012

I don't think there is any proof that people are filling out CR surveys as lambs...but there is no proof they are not.

I think CR and even JD Powers is about as good as we can get trying to determine reliability.

Which isn't very good...

Let's say you have two cars MB E class and Kia Rio. I would suspect that if both experience 5 minor problems that Mr E class would note every single one. There is an expectation that once you spend a certain amount that everything should be working correctly (I also subscribe to this theory). The Rio guy didn't see the, fictional, power window switch not working as a problem...because hey...it didn't leave me stranded...and they fixed it under warranty.

I would also suspect that once you start adding in "free" maintenance it skews the results.

Then I have my couch theory that relates to demographics. Give the same couch to college dudes and grandma. After 3 years which couch is more "reliable". What if grandma's really liked a particular couch (wonder why Buick is so high on JD Powers...). Or why, for some reason, the Lexus GS and IS had worse than their "normal" reliability rating; answer: because they sell those to people like me (drive it like you stole it).

Speaking of JD Powers. A while ago I compared the long term reliability from two separate periods. Conclusion: A new Audi is as reliable as a Toyota from 5 years ago...the new Toyota is even more reliable...but if 5 years ago you were "happy" with the number of problems per 100 vehicles...you could justify a new Audi

m6user · April 2012

Interesting point of view. How would you explain that different brands and models within change in the CR results from model year to model year? Wouldn't the people owning them have the same attributes and be reporting similarly. A MB owner wouldn't suddenly become complacent about the 5 problems and the Kia owner wouldn't suddenly become more critical. Probably no real way of ever determining and it probably works on a curve anyway.

Oh well, this discussion has strayed way off topic and I'm sure people want to move on.

dino001 · April 2012

A MB owner wouldn't suddenly become complacent about the 5 problems and the Kia owner wouldn't suddenly become more critical

Actually, they potentially could, very much so. It is a game of expectations. Doesn't mean this is the only variable, but it is important one, often not taken into account.

I would add, I don't care much for JP Powers' methodology. There were several times, when I read results of their surveys vs. what I knew about the car, it became evident to me there is a lot pretending there. Case in point - Subaru Legacy. Since 2005, it had three distinct levels of trim with totally different engine performance. While standard four cylinder is so-so, the GT trim turbo is a beast, one of the fastest in the group. Yet, JP Powers would allow you to choose specifically "GT" trim and would still assign lower than average acceleration to it. I suspect, the surveys were not properly sorted, there was probably not enough data for separate GT trim, but JP Powers would not admit that - they'd rather give you garbage data based on averaged low-end trim line and pretend it also pertained to the higher one. Once I discovered that, it became clear to me these guys know much less than they are pretending to do.

Not to mention their choices for categories, like "harsh ride" somehow becomes part of a "quality" in their "initial" or "long term" quality studies. Pure ignorance taken to extreme.

cdnpinhead · April 2012

with CR survey methodology is that it's a self-selected cohort. The people who take the time to fill out the multi-page survey (IMHO) are either really upset or extremely pleased with their vehicle, or worse yet, have an axe of some sort to grind (Pious drivers, anyone?). Run-of-the-mill people who have better things to do with their time aren't included.

It's anythiing but a statistically-valid survey, but no one seems to care, and here we are.

Plus which, a flaw that causes the car to stop running isn't differentiated from one that's an inconvenience or a minor annoyance in a system that 99% continues to function.

flightnurse · April 2012

wireless I haven't read many personal reviews of the current C class from owners, I like the coupe though but the price I can't warm up to. I was a big Benz fan many years ago however, I have a secret desire for a E55 wagon.

The design of the current benz doesn't do it for me, however it is typical german in its design, something that BMW and AUDI are not. We all have our likes and dislikes, this is what makes the world go around.

FN

kdshapiro · April 2012

Lexus, Acura and Infiniti set the bar in terms of dealerships. There is a Toyota and Lexus dealership in my neck of the woods, right next to one another. I cannot image the Toyota dealer selling an LS 460 out of it's showroom, which is akin to Hyundai selling the Equus next to an Elantra.

Not that that is bad. But American buyers, imo, expect the dealers to walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to luxury vehicles.

I'm not sure I would be happy to have these service guys drive my car back and forth the dealership. My ex-BMW dealer had that option, but I decided not to avail myself of that particular service.

sweendogy · April 2012

"CR isn't for enthusiasts" - bold statement - I subscribe to CR and own a car in this class- and i shopped BMW, and continue to cross shop the class. I take what they say along with what other mags have to say as a good barometer for what my next purchase should be- its not set in stone but it's a guide- they are not a "rag" and have no support other then subscribers so I take what they say seriously - unlike other mags that are tied to certain product lines.

(not directed at host) I love when people argue about what Consumers are saying about the BMw - mind you these are people who bought (or leased) a car and are just posting an opinion so other consumers know what to expect. Toyota argument - nice try but really?

sweendogy · April 2012

It must of been a real kick to the shins - rock on

flightnurse · April 2012

KD from what I have read the person who comes and picks up the cars is a Concierge type person, so in theory one would never have to step into a dealership at all.

stickguy · April 2012

now that sounds like my kind of semi-retirement job!

much better than working the front door at Walmart.

Actually, all the shuttle van drivers at my Honda dealer are retired gents that do it for pocket money (or to get away from their wife!)

nyccarguy · April 2012

Hyundai for doing what Lexus did way back in the day. I can see how the Genesis works, although I don't see any in my neck of the woods because they DO NOT offer AWD (AWD is expected here in the northeast). I'm not sure who the target market for the Eqqus is. My parents are 66 & 64. They both drive cars that cost what an Eqqus costs (2011 Cayenne V6 & 2011 Tahoe LTZ). I can tell you that there's no way either of them is setting foot in a Hyundai dealership. They also tend to like the firm ride of a German car.

flightnurse · April 2012

Once again this is why we have choices, for me I don't care about the dealership experience, as long as I can drop off my car, and get out in a reasonable amount of time I'm happy. Now I like the idea on not setting foot in a dealership as all to buy and get my car service sounds great. I think the buying process is horrible, but BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Acrua, Infiniti have it right, have a nice clean dealership with a very relax atmosphere it the correct way to go.

fedlawman · April 2012

I replaced my M today...

I want to thank the gentleman pictured with me who took such good care of my car for the past 17 years.

And yes, the E30 will be parked next to it in about 2 weeks! Talk about clouds with silver linings...

sweendogy · April 2012

Nice guy -Love your purple tie- killing it . Not that I care But becareful people on this chat hate when you stray off topic, Porsches and jeep references not allowed.

nyccarguy · April 2012

Gorgeous! Gorgeous! Gorgeous! What year is that? 1995? Mazes-Tov & may you have many, many, years of fantastic driving experiences with it! I love that car!

fedlawman · April 2012

Thanks NYC!

1995 C4. One owner local car.

Funny, it just occurred to me - I got both the 911 and the 318ic for about the cost of a base 328i...

nyccarguy · April 2012

Those '95s are what made me fall in love with the 911. I didn't particularly care for the styling before that. I thought they looked like a squashed bug. I was a 944/928/968 fan. Ever since I first laid eyes on a '95 911, I immediately added it to my list of dream cars! How many miles are on your C4? How'd you find it? Why was this guy selling it?

I'm starting to dip into my BMW's performance potential. First and foremost I'm so impressed with how well the chassis is balanced. It pours itself around curves. The entire car is very fluid.

I used to say that I'd only want a RWD 3 series with a Sport Pkg & frowned upon BMW for only offering a cosmetic sport package with AWD. Not anymore. I'm so happy with how well my 328xi drives. I don't feel the need for anything sharper & a bit lighter (Sport Pkg & RWD). I don't feel the need or want for anymore power.

When I drive a car, I always try to pick a theme song for it. Something that suits the car perfectly. My Prelude's theme is "Sunshine of Your Love" by Cream.

For my 328xi, since I'm leasing it and have to give it back in 2 1/2 years, I picked "Stay With Me" by Faces. "Yeah I'll pay your cab fare home, you can even use my best cologne, just don't be here in the morning when I wake up."

graphicguy · April 2012

Kirstie....thanks, you more eloquently explained what my cumbersome post attempted to say.

graphicguy · April 2012

Fed....BIG CONGRATS! That is sweet!

graphicguy · April 2012

Cdn....you and I view CR the sams way. Their ratings simply have no statistical validity.

flightnurse · April 2012

NYC, growing up in SoCal Porsche's were everywhere, there was a mix of 911s and the 924 (later model)944,986 and the beloved 928. I had always wanted a 928GTS. This all changed in 2000 when I was looking for one, then decided to learn about the car and the maintenance issues with the car. I drove a couple (all with manual transmission.) After learning about the maintenance issues and cost, I switched to the 2000 Vette I bought. Even though my vette had quality issues, it was a very entertaining car to drive... I have a long list of secret desire cars, and the 928 GTS is still on that list.

graphicguy · April 2012

kd....seems all the lux dealers around me will do drop off and pick up for service....including Cadillac. Personally, I'd rather drop off my own car. I do appreciate their free loaner service, though.

I'd bet if I wanted my BMW or Acura sales person to bring a new car to my home for me to test drive, they'd do it.

graphicguy · April 2012

Flightnurse....nice wish list.

Mine mirrors yours, but I'd add a Ford GT, a 12 cyl BMW 8 series and an Alpina, a'56 Chrysler New Yorker (my favorite '50s era American style), any Ferrari, a Jag XKE V12.

Drove a linggenfelter (sp?) corvette a friend was trying to sell me a couple of years ago. That was a wickec piece.

nyccarguy · April 2012

I've read those 928s can be a nightmare as far as maintenance & repairs go. You can't just take the car to any old Porsche mechanic, it has to go to a 928 speciali$t mechanic. Very cool looking cars though.

As crude as they are, I've always wanted a Corvette. My Dad has a '66 427 Roadster rotting in his garage, so Vette ownership is in my DNA;)

flightnurse · April 2012

Graphic If you have a great working relationship with a dealership, there is no reason why they wouldn't bring a car to you to look at if you are busy. I have a buddy who has leased 13 BMW from the same dealer in Atlanta. They will pick up his car when it needs service for him and drop off the loaner to him. He has bought a couple of cars this way too, so it does happen. He knows what he wants in them, tells the same salesman he has used for the past 13 cars, and it is delivered. However, some people like to test drive the cars before buying them.

flightnurse · April 2012

NYC I like your list, however the 8 Series (E31) V12 falls into the same category as the 928... maintenance nightmare. I really like the Chrysler New Yorkers of the 50's, I had a 57' Lincoln Mark II, I wish I had it now very classy car.

lingenfelter builds some insane car's which I have to wonder are they really streetable cars. I was also impressed with my vette, I was getting a steady 28 on the highway with it, and I was doing 75.

Regarding the Alpina, BMW sells a B7, insane car for the price tag, I like that they build it on the standard wheelbase 7 Series, but I would like a B5.

sweendogy · April 2012

Thought your view was to point to the Toyota recall.

fedlawman · April 2012

Thanks again everyone! I don't want to derail this thread so I'll answer NYC's questions and get back on topic...

NYC - it has 80,000 miles. Bought new by a local dentist in 1995 for $70,000 and maintained superbly it's entire life. He just bought a new Audi S5 - 4 cars and a 3 car garage meant one had to go. He's getting older and wasn't driving the Porsche much anymore so he decided to sell it.

I found the car hiding in a local Craigslist listing. Just 2 pictures and a fair asking price. I called him and after he told me about the car, I knew it was the one. When I took delivery, we posed for pictures together and he told me that if anything didn't meet my satisfaction, he'd buy it back from me. He even called me the next day to see how I liked it and to tell me he's glad that I bought it and that it went to a good home.

It's a beauty. I drove it to Bainbridge Island today with the kids and it is TIGHT. There is absolutley no slack in the steering or driveline, the engine and transmission are super smooth, the body and suspension are tight - it really looks and drives like a new car.

kyfdx · April 2012

Geez.... my mother was right... I should have stayed in college and got a good job...

Just for the record, you are killing me.... LOL

tlong · April 2012

Cdn....you and I view CR the sams way. Their ratings simply have no statistical validity.

From a purely statistical basis, I agree with this statement.

Still, CR survey is self selected from subscribers, right? But can anybody tell me why self selection would skew, to any great degree, the results of whether GM or BMW or Ford or etc. would show better/worse reliability than other makes? In other words, why WOULD self selected subscribers cause certain makes to fare better or worse?

I suspect that the CR results are pretty close to valid in spite of the methodological flaws. Just saying they're not statistically valid doesn't say why the results would balance out substantially differently than otherwise.

m6user · April 2012

It seems like a lot of people believe self-selection only brings back results from sore losers or proud owners which IMO is not the case. Unless any survey of owners is done with a gun at their head, it is self-selected. The only other method would be strictly from dealers service records since after warranty so many cars are serviced and repaired done by independent garages. That would give some good indication of initial and early troubles but wouldn't provide any long term reliability data. Pluse getting that kind of cooperation from dealers across the board would be extremely difficult. And if you think dealers pull shenanigans with customers....what would they do with something like that.

fedlawman · April 2012

"Geez.... my mother was right... I should have stayed in college and got a good job..."

If I had listened to my mom, I would be a doctor today and could have afforded a new one...

nyccarguy · April 2012

Thanks for derailing the thread for me! I'm so happy for you dude!

fedlawman · April 2012

sweendogy · April 2012

After you repaid 400k in loans -

andres3 · April 2012

Their flaw is they tell their readership what their reliability should be, and they respond accordingly. That's why Hondas have been at the top of their lists for so long.

The flaw in your argument is you get to the chicken before you get to the egg.

The CR data is based on real-world user experiences. Honda was at the top for a long time because Honda was making bulletproof vehicles for a long time. Toyota was at the top for the same reason.

I've found the CR data to be pinpoint accurate down to the smallest details with every car I've owned. They are not influenced by advertising and hence, their reviews don't read like a cheerleader's salespitch. Often, I find sources with advertising to sound as if they are getting more than monetary benefits, maybe sexual as well! :P

They are just too RAH RAH, and positive for my tastes. I'll take CR anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

andres3 · April 2012

Plus which, a flaw that causes the car to stop running isn't differentiated from one that's an inconvenience or a minor annoyance in a system that 99% continues to function.

>>>>_________

You are probably right with JD Powers, but they are just an advertisement to the highest bidder anyway, and I'm sure they skew their data as such.

With CR... you get major and minor issues separated, such as "Engine - Minor" and "Engine - Major."

A Fantastic system if I do say so myself.

sweendogy · April 2012

The argument here against CR is weak at best - owners of certain BMW
S are On guard after one mention of a bad review. To start the argument with the Toyota stuff was terrible - but to go after consumers (of said cars) and call into question the validity of such survey without any real proof of wrongdoing is crazy. The mag has been around since the 30's and has 7m paid subscribers - its not some Mickey Mouse organization.

wireless · April 2012

Can we move and hear about Fedlawman's Porsche some more?

m6user · April 2012

What's the difference....it's all off topic anyway. Maybe the topic should be ELLPS.

andres3 · April 2012

Yes, I love the conspiracy theorists that think CR brainwashes millions of people into believing something that isn't true.

In fact... some BMW lovers (since some say BMW lovers would never read CR), should know that some BMW's score quite well when it comes to quality and value (in the 90's even score wise). It's just when it comes to reliablity that they can be spotty at best.

Audi isn't perfect, but their trend is for reliability to generally improve over the last 10 years, moreso than BMW.

I can totally understand getting a fun to drive vehicle despite some reliability flaws. I can't understand the argument that because a car costs 1/2 as much it should be half as reliable (or expectations as such should be lower).

If I pay 1/2 as much I'd expect my HP and Torque, comfort, luxury to be halved, but not the reliability. If the performance was half, and the reliability was also half, then I'd expect the price to be 1/2 x 1/2 which equals 1/4!

andres3 · April 2012

Qualify as on topic?

nyccarguy · April 2012

As you all know (and are probably sick of me saying so by now), I am infatuated with the way my BMW 328xi drives. I love it more and more every day. With close to 1200 miles (and my best friend's V1), I've been doing my best to explore the limits of what this Bavarian engineered I6 & RWD chassis can do. Yikes!

I've discovered DS mode in the transmission. It should be explained very simply in the owner's manual:

Slap shifter to left, Plant right foot, Smile

The throttle mapping is much more responsive. The car feels even more alive!

dino001 · April 2012

engineered I6 & RWD chassis can do.

But, but, but... Isn't your car AWD? :confuse:

nyccarguy · April 2012

Yes sir, you are correct. It is AWD, but is a RWD based AWD system. Take the AWD out of the equation & like your 328i Touring is a good old RWD chassis.

dino001 · April 2012

Fair enough.

laurasdada · April 2012

Yes, the wife's 535xi has the DS mode, too. It's quite an attitude changer, I fear for her. My Jag has a sport mode, too. Combined with the paddle shifters, quite un-gentlemanly!

ivan_99 · April 2012

Yes, I love the conspiracy theorists that think CR brainwashes millions of people into believing something that isn't true.

I don't think it's a conspiracy (unlike the president's b-certificate

) but I think it leads to generalizations regarding an entire manufacturer. I originally speculated that demographics (another generalization too) play a large part in the CR results (couch theory).

I find it -reasonable- to assume Buick has a high reliability ranking because 'old' people aren't tearing it up like a younger person would; same with Lexus.

Of course, in my case, a long time ago I had -acceptable- reliability from my Honda Civic, even though I kept that thing over 5k rpm all day...so that may prove the point that Honda is making extraordinary reliable vehicles.

My IS350 isn't *super* reliable. My previous cars...my Honda wasn't as reliable as my Audi. Looking at CR...the Audi should loose that comparison every time.

I overheard (eaves-dropped) the lady across the hall saying "my car's a Honda so it'll last forever". I thought "really? I could break it pretty quick". But she heard form them/they that is is reliable.

As a disclaimer...I also listened to them/they when I decided on my CPO IS350 over a 335 (didn't want to deal with potential problems of a German car). If I had the few problem in a 335 I've had in my IS350 I would have thought "see...those German cars break down, they were right"

m6user · April 2012

My IS350 isn't *super* reliable. My previous cars...my Honda wasn't as reliable as my Audi. Looking at CR...the Audi should loose that comparison every time.

I think CR has a sample size a little larger than ONE. If two other peope had Audis that had more problems than your Honda would you then accept as fact that the Honda was more reliable. It's twice the sample size yours is. People do get lemons or plums and that is why a survey of several hundred or even thousands is a better indicator than your admitted speculations. Did the lady across the hall have a copy of CR in her hand? Would have made your story even funnier.

andres3 · April 2012

I find it -reasonable- to assume Buick has a high reliability ranking because 'old' people aren't tearing it up like a younger person would; same with Lexus.
____>>>>>>>>>>)))))))))

I don't agree with those presumptions though. A decently made vehicle will stay in one piece whether you drive it like grandpa or you drive it like you stole it (as long as you maintain it properly). For instance.... My '95 Neon fell apart when it was babied, and it tore apart equally as bad when I drove it like a teenager should (:P).

My friend of the same age literally raped his '95 Geo Prism (a Corolla under the emblem) day after day, from birth until he sold it at over 100K miles. While he treated his Corolla at least 10X harsher than I treated my Neon, I needed 4 tow trucks in 65K miles while his car needed zero in over 100K miles. He had zero mechanical issues (someone did break off his rearview mirror though (but that's rough housing negligence, not the cars fault).

With rev limiters in Automatics... if the car can't be driven like it can be driven, then maybe the manufacturer should move the red line to 2,500 RPM???? I can't imagine any kind of driving style (short of willful attempts to destruct) hampering the life of a well made vehicle (accidents excluded).

In conclusion if a car self destructs just because you don't drive it like someone over 65, then that car should be labeled as a disposable vehicle. Like a BIC disposable razor. Planned obsolesense?

Another example, I've tracked my A3 several times (and driven it way harder in general than any other car I've owned, including the Neon as a Teenager). The A3 has been fairly reliable almost to the level of the Honda I owned for 65K miles (which was far from perfect, but very good; I blame Ohians for most of the issues). None of the issues with my A3 that have hit my pocket book could really be reasonably attributed to driving it "hard," other than routine maintenance items like Brake pads, rotors, and tires. Costs in those areas are high when you drive it like it was MEANT to be driven.

P.S. It wouldn't suprise me that much if an Audi made post 2000 was more reliable than a Honda made post 2007. Was the Honda made in the USA?; even less surprising then. Now if your Honda was made in Japan, and the Audi beat it... congratulations to Audi! But Audi is reliable enough for the last 10 to 12 years that any one good one could perhaps beat a bad Honda by a bit.

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