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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Are you the same guy arguing why thr tsx should be in this category a few months ago?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    Yup, that's me:)

    The TSX was a mighty fine automobile, but my BMW is just on another planet. Besides my brief drive in a G37X (which was very entertaining to say the least), I haven't driven anything other ELLPS lately. It's like trying to put Trevor Hoffman & Mariano Rivera in the same category.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Really? I get 23-24 mpg not even trying to hard on my daily commute (65% highway at 60-80 mph, 35% city). On interstate at 75-85 mph I get 28-29 mpg. Even in Germany, going 90-100 mph (normal cruise speed there if you don't want to be pushed to truck's lane), I got around 23-24 mpg. It is really amazing how they were able to achieve such high mileage on the highway with that six.The mileage admittedly plummets to 18-19 mpg if I do all-city driving.

    This batch you drove must be a lot stop-and-go, if you got that trying so hard.

    BTW, I'm glad you like deep sea blue. I do to, I got one ;) Actually, it was my third choice. I wanted crimson red, but they discontinued it for 2012 wagons, so they did with montego blue (a little brigther). But when I saw my car on the pedestal in Munich, I immediately fell for it and forgot about my first choices. One downside - you can see every dust particle on it :cry:. I don't like washing my car this frequently, my previous cars were less susceptible to show the dust than this one.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    Don't forget my 328xi sedan (AWD Automatic) is hauling around some extra weight compared to your 328i sports wagon (RWD Manual). I think even in dry conditions, my car is sending 5% of it's power to the front wheels. My car is only rated at 25 mpg. Your wagon also has the sport suspension which lowered ride height helps with better mileage.

    You've got excellent taste in colors. My wife's (2 cars ago) 2007 X3 was Montego Blue. It was gorgeous. She got tons of compliments on it. It did show every little spec of dust, almost as bad as a black car. Every time we see a Montego Blue X3 or 3 series, she gives me the "HMMMPH" and "The Look" because her Acura TSX was black followed by her Pilot which is Polished Metal Metallic (the Bali Blue only came with Grey Leather on the EXL NAV).

    If I were to factory order my car from the factory Id most likely get Deep Sea Blue. The Crimson Red & Sedona Red are nice colors too.

    With my 328xi, it was a leftover & I was more concerned with options (Xenon NAV) than colors (as long as it wasn't black).

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Actually, not to be misleading, but the performance package (335i) can be set up at the dealer....OR, if you order from the factory, it will be delivered with your car already installed.

    It was like that for the '11s. Not sure about the '12s.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Poor Mariano
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    The great Mo Rivera WILL BE BACK. Throwing his cutter & breakin bats!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 234,725
    Doubtful..

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino the Euro car's are geared differently, or was this your personnel car on the Euro Delivery? When I did the Euro Del on my 05, the best I got in Germany was 18. I was not going to have a Opal pass me on the Autobahn..
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    What does the Performance Package consist of? Since the Twin Turbo 6 in the 6 Series and 7 Series makes 315hp, Will the 3 series w/ PP make the same HP?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    It was Euro Delivery. My overall mileage over 2K miles or so was 21-22, but highway at 90-100 mph was better.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Lookimg at a used 14k mile 2011 335 x manual with all the bells and whistles - car is on a used car lot - car fax suggesd the car was serviced multiple times with tires being mounted 3x times, oil change and a replaced transmission - car wAs then sent to auction where this dealer picked it up. A transmission replaced at 12k miles is huge flag- thoughts from you guys would be helpful.

    Does BMW warrantee transfer full and complete?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,381
    run. fast.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Yes it does, is this car at a BMW dealer? If not, take the VIN # to a local BMW and have them print off the service history for you, it will give you the dealers name in which the car was serviced at. You could ask the serving dealer why the tranny was replaced at 12K miles.

    I find it interesting that a transmission was replaced it could be a fluke since they are not the weak spot of the car.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Thanks for the link, however you comment on the webpage makes no sense, why can't you get a PP on a Manuel, AWD 335i? The article doesn't say it not be had...

    On a side note, those who bought a 335is, shouldn't be too happy since these are the same HP and torque # as the 335is.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    The difference is 335is has SMG, which would make big difference vs. traditional automatic.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    Yeah my comment was from last nov -'Ive re-read it since- thanks for pointing it out thou

    Guess I was thinking about those leader ads you liked to mention at the time- got me sideways
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Not a BMW dealer- just a used car dealer. I called tHe bmw dealer where the car was bought and serviced - they would not give details as I am not the registered owner.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    So, are we going to replace the CTS with the ATS when it arrives? Just saw the prices. Too close to the 3 series for me. The base engine package seems to compete with the TSX.

    Rightly or wrongly, if I was buyying a Caddy instead of a BMW I want a big discount. To me Caddy is closer to Acura in price than it is BMW.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I don't know the specifics on the ats and its pricing but I agree some discount needs to apply if they are going to be a real threat to the 3. Would love to see what fully optioned out car would be- the maxed out 335 gets to 55k pretty quickly-
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    AH, I was not aware of this, yes the SMG would make a big difference.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If you don't know the pricing, how could you say some sort of discount needs to apply? :confuse:

    The V6 with 300+ hp starts at about $42000. Now if it is decked out with much of the stuff that is optional on the 328 like leather, etc, etc, etc. It may already be a value proposition. The base starts at about $33000 and only has the 200 hp. This is probably going to be for people that like a small Cadillac but don't need all the go-go. Again, how decked out "base" cars will be is the question that hasn't been answered by GM yet. If a 270hp 2.0 ATS has enough standard it may still undercut BMW(apples to apples options) so heavy discounting may not be necessary.

    No real test drives have been done either so if those turn out to be very good and the pricing is right it may be very competitive. Since we don't have any idea of the standard equipment that goes along with the different engine price points it's kind of silly to be making definitive statements at this point in time.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    Well if both cars are equipped the same at the start - and they both are around the same price then BMW would win because well it's a BMW- and since caddy saying this is a 3 series fighter they would need more for less. See g35-g37- similar performance 10k diff in price. If they were priced the same Infiniti would sell fewer cars - pretty simple if you ask me.

    The details for pricing on edmunds - posted today do not include any options or standard features - so we have no real clue on how to compare these cars.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    so we have no real clue on how to compare these cars. \

    Ummh, that was my point. How can one say the ATS would have to be discounted until we do know the details? The base ATS may have standard that which you might have to pay thousands for on the 328. I agree, BMW has the pinache and history, so if they were very(you're never gonna get exactly) similarly equipped the ATS would have to be at a lower price point or be discounted like you said.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    As much as I'd love to have you as part of the BMW ownership brotherhood on our board here, I'm sure whatever they are asking for that 335xi with the new manual transmission isn't exactly cheap. So I'd pass on this & keep looking if I were you.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Thx you. I have decided to pass- Maybe ill look at the ats/ :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    GM needs to get the ATS right the first time for it to be competitive in the market it will compete in. It will be interesting to see what happens, it took the CTS 5 years before it was close to BMW. I hope for GN sake they do get it right.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    walk away from that 335..
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    One could say, the ATS should be priced lower then the CTS, so a base price could be speculated. A base CTS is $36K a base 328i starts at $35K, so one could say the ATS should start at about 30K or even less. GM at times seems not get the pricing game correct, if they want to sell the ATS then they need to get very aggressive on the price, mid level ATS should be priced at about $33K make it less then a BMW enough for people to think twice about spending more money on a car then they need to.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    dino....granted, I've only driven a 3 with the SMG trans once, and it was only on a brief test drive. But, I came to the conclusion BMW's SMG trans isn't nearly ready for prime time. Maybe it's something you get used to. But, the one I drove was in a new 335is. It wasn't remotely smooth, nor was it particularly sporty.

    Again, could have been I wasn't used to it. But, I knew it wasn't for me within a minute or two of driving it.

    flightnurse.....I've heard rumblings on some of the other BMW specific forums when the PP first was announced that the 335is folks got the short end of the stick, considering what they paid to get the "is" version.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic I drove a M3 with the SMG and didn't like it, this was the last generation M3 ( I beleive) and I hoped they have gotten it right, but I guess not. Too bad, since Porsche,Audi and VW sure has. I would consider a new BMW with a SMG if it worked as well as VW's...
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    I know a guy who has been a DIE HARD stick driver his entire life. He had a 997 911 C2 (6 speed manual). He got rear ended at a light and the car was very badly damaged (he was in the hospital for 2 months). The car wasnt damaged enough to be totalled, but he said it never drove right after he got it back. He immediately began searching for a new car. His 1st stop was a BMW dealership. He nearly walked out when the salesman said they didn't have any 6 Speed Stick M3s in stock for him to drive. The guy practically begged him to drive the DCT equipped M3. He drove it and absolutely LOVED it. He ended up buying an M3 Convertible with DCT.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,381
    I have not driven a stick since my Accord was sold back in February (my Volvo is an AT, and the other car in the family is a minivan). I still occasionally push at the imaginary clutch, or reach to shift gears, but overall have not missed it. Just driving around town of course, so no big deal, but did get stuck in NYC traffic on my trip to LI!

    and my DD had been a manual for all but 3 months since I got my first car at age 17, which is many, many, many (sadly, I just had a milestone Bday) years ago.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Ok boys, according to the Detroit Freepress the ATS will start at $33,990. Too high in my book.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20120508/BUSINESS01/205080328/Cadillac-unveils-ATS-- pricing-it-s-the-new-kid-on-the-block-

    enjoy the reading...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    And when is the last time anyone paid MSRP for a GM car? When the rebates come (and they'll come quickly), you'll be able to buy an ATS for $29,500.

    Here's to hoping it isn't ugly...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    And if I haven't said it yet, I think the new car to buy right now is the E90 328i - while they last.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Well when I bought my 2000 vette there were not rebates on it, of course they do sell everyone they make.

    The size of the car is important, since the ATS is smaller then a CTS, not too sure how they is going to play out... The 2012 3 series is a bigger car then 2011, the A4 is about the same size as the 3, and the C class now has livable back seats. This is going to be interesting.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    A similar article was on edmunds earlier in the week- I don't think it's the starting price but the options prices and standard features that need to define if it's a player -I think we need further details before totally dismissing a non-BMW. The article did point to the fact you can get the bigger eng 6 with some technology for 42k - which in a 3400 lb car could be interesting.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 234,725
    of course they do sell everyone they make.

    I think that's true of every car model, eventually...

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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    Thank-you for the compliment my friend:)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I had you in mind... I think you made a smart move.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    I know I made the right move:). I enjoy every single mile I drive it.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Would you believe that I am even rethinking my position on AWD? At least, certain applications of it...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    You are correct, however, in the case of the Vette, you wont see the past year model linger in the showroom very long. Not like other GM models..
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny I'm not dismissing the car at all, what I'm saying is, for the ATS to be a home run, GM best get it right the first year. Since the ATS is being billed as a 3 series fighter, they will have a problem to start with, its size. It is smaller then a 3 series, A4 and C class.

    Yes, the ATS will have the 3.6L DI engine but that doesn't mean it will be a good car...
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    flight....nyc....just goes to show, an opinion is worth what I charge for it ;) .

    I didn't like the SMG in the BMW. Others may like it quite a lot.

    Over the last several years, I've strayed away from manual transmissions. I think the automatics have become so accomplished and efficient, I don't think I can match the performance of a good automatic. The 6-speed auto in my 3 is great. I know I couldn't match the shifts if I were driving it with a manual.....and I'm pretty good with the left pedal.

    Some cars just cry out for a manual....like muscle cars.....or a Porsche. Everything else, a good automatic will net more performance 9 out of 10 times.

    Someone mentioned 3 series diesel cars a while back in here. I was in Manchester U.K. for business a few weeks ago. My company has a couple of cars for those of us visiting to use. I think they lease them as they change every 3-4 years. They put me in a diesel Jaguar. Not a bad car, at all. They don't understand our (meaning U.S.) affinity for "petro" cars. But, gas is about $9-$10/gal there. So, diesels are very popular.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic when it comes to the argument for and against a manual transmission I would place BMW and Vette in the category as must have. Growing up I have had only three cars that didn't have manual transmission. 65 Mustang, 57 Continental Mark II and a 1970 Datsun truck that had a Buick V6 in it. However, after driving the VW DSG car, I could live with a good dual clutch transmission car, but BMW has not built one yet. I do see the future going in that direction when it comes to performance cars.

    When it comes to prices in the UK and the EU the price for Petrol and Fuel (diesel) are about the same, this is why Diesel's are so popular. BTW, it was me who talked about the 335d.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    edited May 2012
    I think that regardless of the actual transaction price the ATS has to be priced less than BMW if for no other reason than frequently people look online to check out a car. I would think that if they are priced too close together no one would even take a hard look at the ATS at which point they might discover the discounts. Sometimes the "discount" doesn't appear quickly and it turns people off. Or in some markets, you have dealers that don't discount as heavily as dealers in other markets.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Flight the 328 you ride is it manual or auto?
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