Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

victord1 · March 2004

It's funny how my '03 Maxima SE has more luxury features (easy entry-exit feature, heated steering wheel, auto-on headlights...)than the '03 TL-S, 3series, and IS300. Now if you think by merely having real wood on the 3series making it more luxurious than the Maxima, then I rest my case....it's an individual thing.

Maybe we should compare cars based on their own merits and not on their perceived images; read brand names.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Do not agree. It's the placement of the vehicle on a luxury brand's scale that determines if it's a near/entry level lux.

The 3, C, A4, IS300 are all near/entry. They're not luxury cars though. They're the feeders to fill coffers and get brand loyalty. These cars exist at the bottom of a luxury brand's offerings.

Infiniti
Lincoln
Saab
Subaru
Volkswagen
Volvo

No way in hades is Subaru near anything luxury. Subaru makes economy and joe blow cars. If you sell a car for under 20k there's no way any vehicle from the brand can be considered luxury. It goes against the concept of luxury branding.

As I've stated before, Kmart brand can sell a coat for $5k but in the end it's still a Kmart brand coat.

A Nissan Max loaded to the gills is still from the same brand as the Sentra and Frontier. It may be the most expensive car in that brand but the brand itself is common place.

An entry-level lux car is the bottom rung of the luxury brand's offerings. If the brand sells anything approaching economy cars it most certainly can not be a lux brand or offer anything that can be termed entry-level lux. Why is this a tough concept for people?

buddhabman · March 2004

Infiniti is a brand that has shot up these last two years. Howver prior to that it wasn't very highly considered, particularly in view of its' rebadged vehicles.

Let me admit I am a big Subaru fan. Subaru's are fairly highly regarded, if they weren't why do you see all the AWD and Sportwagons out these days. I will agree that adding it to the Premium segment is touchy, but thats only because of the prior level of interior refinement and powertrain options. The chassis/platforms and worldwide engine drivetrains are considered top notch. The US is finally geting the nicer equipment, plus nicer vehicles are in the works. All the brands seem to be getting into the entry level market, so no problem with Suabru having entry level cars.

carlisimo · March 2004

Wouldn't Europe's Mercedes Benz A-class and BMW 3-series Compact (and soon the 1-series) disqualify those two companies by your standards?

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Those models do not exist in the US and if they did BMW would be very worried about diluting its brand. BMW dumped the 318ti because it was viewed as diminishing the brand. Read up on the worries from business analysts about the 1 series and MB's bust of a c coupe. As BMW and MB reach more downmarket they risk becoming just another brand like Mazda, Subaru or Chevy. Sales numbers too threaten BMW's branding as they expand.

Lie down with dogs...

victord1 · March 2004

you wrote "The 3, C, A4, IS300 are all near/entry. They're not luxury cars though." I agree.

Now about the Kmart thing: are you saying that even if the same objects can be had from Kmart and, say, Neiman Marcus, they're still not the same?!?! Are we talking about placebo effects here??

I think it's only fair to compare things on what they have to offer and not their "perceived" images. After all, we're not comparing brandnames here.......or are we?

Carlisimo, well put. I was thinking of the same thing. Been there, done that, for BMW and MB.......lie down with dogs.

O.K. now all you BMW, MB and Lexus fans can start throwing stones now :-)

dhanley · March 2004

The whole branding thing makes no sense to me. But what if we said this: a luxury brand is somewhat defined by it's dealerships and service. If you can get service loaners, some period of free service, and the dealerships are attractive and have a good chance of serving cappucino--it's likely a luxury car.

I still think that significant noise(say, low seventies cruising)/shock supression, top-tier safety, amenities such as climate control,leather, heated seats, and respectable power ( say, 0-60 in <8 seconds ) are really requirements for luxury.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Now about the Kmart thing: are you saying that even if the same objects can be had from Kmart and, say, Neiman Marcus, they're still not the same?!?! Are we talking about placebo effects here??

Not the same objects though. I specifically stated a Kmart coat, just like a Honda Accord, is by definition a product of the Kmart/Honda brand.

I think it's only fair to compare things on what they have to offer and not their "perceived" images. After all, we're not comparing brandnames here.......or are we?

Yes we are. Entry-level luxury has everything to do with branding. You can't brand a Nissan a luxury car as the brand is synonymous with being plebian.

iwantonetoo · March 2004

This discussion reminds me of the Clinton hearing. It depends on what the meaning of is is.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

I still think that significant noise(say, low seventies cruising)/shock supression, top-tier safety, amenities such as climate control,leather, heated seats, and respectable power ( say, 0-60 in <8 seconds ) are really requirements for luxury.

Who makes the car determines if it's luxury. Ask VW and it's flailing Phaeton how much good it does you to be the People's Car yet you've got all the same gizmos as a 7 series.

You don't simply sell a car. You're selling someone a brand. Nike, Nordstrom, Mercedes...all carry weight by virtue of branding.

buddhabman · March 2004

Do you agree or not?

Luxury -

Audi - A8 L
BMW - 745i
Cadillac - Deville DTS
Jaguar - XJ8
Lexus - LS430
Mercedes Benz - S Class

Premium Aka Near Luxury -

Acura - TL, RL
Infiniti - G35, M45, Q45
Lincoln - LS, Towncar
Saab - 9-5
Subaru - New Legacy GT, Outback H6 VDC
Volkswagen - Passat W8, Phaeton
Volvo - S60, S80

kdshapiro · March 2004

I agree that modding the engine to increase horsepower is a very viable thing. However:

1. You run the risk of terminating your warranty as the dealer can rightly claim increasing hp/torque with unauthorized mods put undue stree on the engine/driveline components that cause the failure.

2. I do not believe these same mods contribute to an overall increase in gas mileage.

3. You decrease the life and reliability of your vehicle.

But, it is your vehicle, you take your chances and believe what you want about the dealer fixing any engine/drivetrain issues with these mods.

dhanley · March 2004

Well, i don't agree with you at all--but you can be as superficial as you choose.

I still think if you put 100 people in a decked-out camry versus one of the low-end mercs or bimmers you get in europe--the vast majority will pick the camry as more luxurious.

dave

blueguydotcom · March 2004

They may say the camry feels more luxurious, that doesn't change the impact of branding. Once the brands are revealed most people will change their tune.

The fact remains most people are influenced by branding. Like it or not most cats will cruise up to a Subaru and a MB and they'll have instant views of quality, luxury, etc based purely on the badge.

danny1878 · March 2004

Brand name, Characteristics of a car or price limiter?

1. If brand is the main qualifier then we couldnt include Phaeton eventho Phaeton is a bit more than just near luxo (bcuz most of its product is non premium vehicle).
We have to include all lexus sedans eventho some of them doesnt have 'performance'.

2. If characteristic is the main qualifier then all sedan which qualify as premium/near luxo perf. have to be included too (such as VW Phaeton but not ES330). But then we have to define the term of luxury(unfortunately how hard the car tries to be luxurious, it's brand name tells people otherwise) and maybe we have to define the term of performance too.

3. If price is the main qualifier then STI have to be included if we include G35 based on its stripper price tag. It certainly would include ES330 but not CTS-V. And maybe we have to define what price range that could be considered as the 'premium'

Some people might/-not consider these sedans as premium/near luxury performance sedans: ES330, 1 series, 325i, TSX, Phaeton, CTS-V, new Accord, Subaru STI bcuz of various reasons. Underpower, price such as over 40k or less than 30k, regular brand name, no luxury features/ no radio.

aahhh IDK

jrock65 · March 2004

"An entry-level lux car is the bottom rung of the luxury brand's offerings. If the brand sells anything approaching economy cars it most certainly can not be a lux brand or offer anything that can be termed entry-level lux. Why is this a tough concept for people?"

It's not a tough concept. Some people just don't agree with you and your definition.

I agree that there are brands considered "luxury." I don't agree that a car must be under such a brand name to be considered an entry luxury vehicle.

Different concept of "luxury", I guess.

victord1 · March 2004

A coat labelled Kmart, Neiman Marcus, or any other "prestigious" brands doesn't necessarily mean it was manufactured by those companies individually. It probably comes from the same off-shore sweat shop.

"You don't simply sell a car. You're selling someone a brand. Nike, Nordstrom, Mercedes...all carry weight by virtue of branding." True. But a wise buyer should know WHAT he/she is really buying.

Nissan, Honda, Mazda, Subaru.....are not luxury brand , and never will. I never say they are. I'm comparing the luxury aspects car-to-car.

I just hope that we're not going to compare performances of these "entry luxury" cars based solely on brands and what those manufacturers claim their products can do.

I have said in other forums that my next car will most likely be a 3series. But that decision is based on factors OTHER THAN the luxury, performance, or brandname aspects of the car. Up to now I've never, and never will, thought of a 330i as being more luxurious or of better brand than my current Maxima.

More power to the placebo effects. Nuff said. Cheers.

pg48477 · March 2004

Branding does not make a vehicle luxure or not. Even though VW is not a luxury brand Phantom is a luxury car. Sales have nothing to do with it , if people don't buy it does not mean it's not luxury vehicle.

In my opinion full size luxury cars are:

745/760, S-class, Q45, LS430, A8, Phantom.

midsize Luxury:

5- series, E class, RL, A6, M45, G430/330, S type.

and finally near luxury, or entry luxury:

3 series, TSX/TL, IS, G35, C class, X type, CTS, ES330.

now, if you want to add performance than 325, TSX, ES330, C230 disqualified So I have only 6 vehicles left:

330, TL, G35, C320, CTS and IS(would not include IS for luck of power, but it handles grate)

I like TL best out of this group, nice handling, lots of power, tones of luxury, grate price. I would probably go with 330, but don't like the interior, and way to much money.

pat · March 2004

It makes no sense to have a discussion completely consumed with what the belongs in the discussion and what does not.

I think that the suggestion that the entry-level lux category is the lowest sedan offering of a brand that is *generally* accepted as presenting the intent of a "luxury" appeal is a good one. I think two good additions to that thought are that the sedan shouldn't exceed the $40-42k'ish range in a common configuration, and that maybe we'll include the 2nd bottom vehicle in some cases (TSX and TL, S40 and S60/S60R).

So I'm exercising my, um, royal power :-), and declaring that this discussion is about the following vehicles:

Acura TSX and TL
Audi A4
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
Jaguar X-Type
Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

I'm not adding Volkswagen for a couple of reasons. Generally speaking, one does not (at least so far) think of that brand when thinking of lux vehicles. There is the Phaeton, but in no way is it in an "entry level" class. So the way I see it, it doesn't belong here either way.

I'm changing the name to Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans from Near Luxury Performance Sedans if for no other reason than to make ME feel better about the name!

But I'm leaving the "performance" part, so feel free to not discuss the "maybe" vehicles if you think they don't belong.

If anyone feels strongly that I have overlooked something important, speak up within the next day or so, or forever hold your peace!

Thanks to all of you for your efforts in trying to get this nailed down.

Now, let's talk about cars and not about the discussion! Okay?

:-)

blueguydotcom · March 2004

A coat labelled Kmart, Neiman Marcus, or any other "prestigious" brands doesn't necessarily mean it was manufactured by those companies individually. It probably comes from the same off-shore sweat shop.

So true. I'd never argue one automatically means quality.

True. But a wise buyer should know WHAT he/she is really buying.

You've just eliminated 99.9% of the buying public.

I have said in other forums that my next car will most likely be a 3series. But that decision is based on factors OTHER THAN the luxury, performance, or brandname aspects of the car. Up to now I've never, and never will, thought of a 330i as being more luxurious or of better brand than my current Maxima.

You're in the minority on this. I would agree with you but most would feel otherwise. Mention you have a Max and nobody cares. Mention the MB or BMW and the majority of people have a reaction based on the brand and what it's associated with. Good or bad, brand plays a big role in how the majority of the world views products.

More power to the placebo effects. Nuff said. Cheers.

Yeah, I had a friend reselling ugly, bland Ugg boots on ebay before Xmas. She was nearly doubling her investment.

buddhabman · March 2004

Pat - I think the Saab 9-3 merits the list. The features and interior are at least as nice as he Cadillac, Jag, Infiniti, Volvo. The power and drive of the Aero model put it close also.

pat · March 2004

I considered the 9-5. But I don't think the Saab brand presents as a a lux brand, nor makes people think of luxury ... am I wrong?

pg48477 · March 2004

I did not know you care much about what other people think about your car.

I buy cars because I like it not because others think it's prestigious or not.

As for 2004 Maxima, material wise it's worse than 2003, almost as cheap as Altima.

pg48477 · March 2004

I say include it , it makes no difference what the brand is , it's about individual vehicles. ES330 has no performance, but you still decided to include it. 9-5 does not have much luxure but good performance

jrock65 · March 2004

I think people think about Saab like they think about Volvo or Acura. Not on the level of BMW or Lexus, but above Toyota or Nissan.

Not too sure though.

qbrozen · March 2004

i've always thought of Saab as a 'tweener. Definitely above the basic japanese and american brands. so i think it belongs. Come to think of it, are there ANY "base" european brands offered here in the US?

I can't make an argument for the new Subaru Legacy GT just yet because its not here. If it comes with the options for power leater and navigation (that might be where it falls short), does 0-60 in the anticipated sub 6 seconds, and breaks $30K (which it probably will), then I'll probably be fighting for it to be included.

pat · March 2004

And this is exactly where it gets too hard.

I think we need to stick to the brands that are striving to present a luxury image as a whole. Subaru is not one of those, and I don't think Saab is either.

We've got to draw the line somewhere and talk about the cars instead of the discussion. It's going to be somewhat arbitrary and not everyone is going to agree, but if we are going to have a meaningful conversation we have to define the parameters and then stay within them.

Ya know?

knr5 · March 2004

In the interests of keeping things simple, I suggest, Pat, that you lose the "maybes" from your list and add Saab 9-3 and 9-5. I agree with jrock65 that Saabs are perceived as being more upscale than the Nissans, Toyotas, Hondas etc., more or less in the same bracket as Volvos.

There is some truth to every perspective on the issue of what cars belong in this discussion. Cars use combination brands -- the make and the individual model name -- to, perhaps, benefit from both family branding and individual branding. So, while there is some halo effect from the make, the dominant perception is one based on the individual model. People may swear by the "Pathfinder" while detesting the "Xterra", for example. A person driving around in a "Land Cruiser" is looked upon very differently than one tooling around in a "Corolla." So, in my view, it is more meaningful to discuss specific models as being in the upscale performance sedan category. In some (hopefully, rare) cases, therefore, cars from so-called "lesser" makes may deserve to be discussed in this forum as well.

There are as many "best buys" as there are people. It is, after all, a function of priorities driven by individual and/or family needs and wants. Every car is a compromise among competing demands, just as every purchase decision is. A lot of the firepower in these forums, while highly entertaining, is often misdirected. A lot of the criticism of different cars (and, occasionally, their owners!) is analogous to faulting the lion for not having the grace of a gazelle!:)

Just my 2c!:)
Raj

rderizans · March 2004

Thank you, Pat, for just putting a list together!

FWIW, I think Saab belongs here. The 9-3 and 9-5 are cross-shopped with all of the above cars, at least in my area (NY).

Suburu might build an amazing $30k Legacy, but it doesn't belong here. Just my $0.02.

fedlawman · March 2004

I agree, the Saab's belong and the Subaru doesn't.

Sorry, but I also believe that, like it or not, branding does play a role in this subject.

For example, if the Lexus IS300 was sold here as the $25,000 Toyota Altezza, it would not qualify as "entry-level lux." Instead, it would provide good competition for the Mazda 6.

dhanley · March 2004

People reacted more to my saab than my bmw--i think it belongs.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

I did not know you care much about what other people think about your car.

I do care because since I've purchased a BMW I've found I'm treated quite differently when people connect me with the car. For the most part the experiences have been quite negative but the fact remains in my Protege I'm anonymous. Not so in my other car.

I buy cars because I like it not because others think it's prestigious or not.

I never wrote you or I did otherwise. But when you read the reasons most people buy cars it's rarely related to how the car drives - reputation for dependability and resale is what drives honda and toyota in such a big way.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

FWIW, I think Saab belongs here. The 9-3 and 9-5 are cross-shopped with all of the above cars, at least in my area (NY).

Wow in all my time helping friends and family drive cars I've only gotten one person to even test drive a Saab. She thought it was nice if underpowered. I have two friends who were raised on Saabs and there seems to be some kind of genetic code that passes from parent to child to get the kid into Saabs.

When I did my looking, the Saab never entered my radar. Front wheel drive and GM...running for the hills.

merc1 · March 2004

I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but the Phaeton is most definitely a full-on luxury car, reguardless of the badge. It might have the wrong badge and sits in the wrong showroom, but it is the real deal.

pg48477,

I take it you mean the Phaeton, not the Phantom? The Phantom is a Rolls-Royce, and it is several times more luxury car than anything being discussed in this topic.

M

easyrider300m · March 2004

It is a car that defines near luxury. The 2004 is selling at about 28,000 after discounts and incentives. I think it has the most bang for the buck in the near luxury class.

And the soon to be released Chrysler 300C Hemi version should also be considered although I think it may be eligible for the luxury car class, not just near luxury. It will sell for around $34k very well equipped.

I own a 2000 300M with 70k on the dial and it still rides as good as the day I got it. Some of the members of the 300M Enthusiasts club claim (with some slight modifications) that they get under 15 second quarter mile times. And the car just has very unique and classy styling

qbrozen · March 2004

but if subaru is being disallowed, then so is Chrysler ... no matter how nice or expensive it may be.

qbrozen · March 2004

just wanted to add Lincoln LS to the list.

and i still vote for Saab. If its not in the same category as Volvo and Acura, then where is it? Its definitely not competing with Civics and Sentras.

chrisboth · March 2004

Chrysler is actually a luxury brand according to Mercedes...The crossfire would be here if it had 4 doors and the pacifica is a pretty well done luxury hybrid....people may not recieve chrsyler as a lux brand but they certainly intend to be one. Everyone wants some entry lux pie and soon enough even the subbie may have to be included despite the branding thing.

Fact is affluence is out there even where you dont see it and those "stealty wealthy" may just be able to get the lux and not the badge and the uninvited perceptions that a merc or bimmer bring you. The wealthiest people i know drive accords and the pay checks to paychcks drive 5 series. A company like Subaru can give those who like to be unseen a little of what a bimmer offers without the price or the BS.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

A company like Subaru can give those who like to be unseen a little of what a bimmer offers without the price or the BS.

ROFL. Scoobies have one big strike right off the bat: AWD. Another would be cheap interior materials. One more would be the total lack of style inside and out. Kia Rio exterior and interior pretty well matches the WRX.

The WRX/STi is a fast car. That's all it offers. If speed were the only criteria for getting a car most of us would be driving around in one of those buzzy, chincy econoboxes.

mgh_1 · March 2004

Aren't the Lexus 330 and the 300M substantially about luxury with no significant emphasis on performance?

I know we could say acceleration equals some form of performance, but I was thinking the handling aspect comes into play as well.

IMHO I look at the LS as more luxury than anything else.

The Saab 9-3 and 9-5 belong in my eyes.

Just my .02.

speedracer3 · March 2004

IMO Subarus do not belong in this category while the Saab 9-3 should definitely be added to the list.

buddhabman · March 2004

Thanks for the support. I can see the arguement for calling it a "tweener" brand, but it is a brand really shopped by people also looking and can afford Acuras, Audi's, BMW's, and Volvos. I hope Pat will add them to the list.

As for Subaru, I will give up the ghost. Although I think it deserves a consideration, maybe not yet until the updated models come out and prove something. But note Subaru is also cross shopped with Acura, Audi, Audi, BMW and Volvo for sure. Note also, all the brands mentioned in this topic have reacted to what Subaru has done, so the other brand managers know whats up.

I wont argue AWD vs RWD, it's a preference. But AWD provides awesome driving dynamics for a multitude of surfaes and conditions.

The Chrysler 300M deserves consideration, not for the brand but the car itself.

chrisboth · March 2004

"ROFL. Scoobies have one big strike right off the bat: AWD. Another would be cheap interior materials. One more would be the total lack of style inside and out. Kia Rio exterior and interior pretty well matches the WRX. "

The wrx is a tin can...i was referring to a 250hp upscaled sedan for 05 - the Legacy. Of course its awd but so is the a-4. And while i wont buy one I know pleny of people making 300k who would. They just dont care about RWD the way we do! ...and they dont care about affluence but will spend 32k no problem. THis is a great segment with lots of people and lots of $...all the rules are changing fast and even KIa and Hyundia have nothing to stop them from competing too even in RWD format someday soon.

kdshapiro · March 2004

"The wealthiest people i know drive accords and the pay checks to paychcks drive 5 series."

Wow, the wealthiest people I know drive $300K cars, care about RWD and have interesting automobile collections, but what has that to do with the price of tea? Seems like some of this conversation is about the type of person that drives one of these cars and not the type of car a person drives.

pat · March 2004

First, this isn't about wealthy or not wealthy people. It is about entry-level luxury performance sedans. We aren't here to talk about people; we're here to talk about cars. Let's not get into categorizing (generalizing, assuming, stereotyping) the folks who drive them.

Now, as your host, I am officially declaring this discussion about the following vehicles and no others:

Acura TSX and TL
Audi A4
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
Jaguar X-Type
Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Saab 9-3 and 9-5
Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

As I said earlier, feel free to NOT discuss the "maybes", but I'm not going to rule them out. If you want to talk about them, talk about how they do or do not fit the "performance" description along with anything else of interest.

I am ruling out all other suggestions, though, for the reasons stated earlier. Those reasons include the fact that we should keep this to a marque that intends to convey luxury across its spectrum, it is nonsensical to have a never-ending discussion about what the discussion is about and most importantly, it's time to draw the line.

So here it is - talk about the cars in my list or go make another discussion if you need to talk about something else. Just keep in mind that another vague, undefined category doesn't serve any purpose. To keep it useful, interesting and productive, be sure to clearly define the topic.

Okay? Have at it!!

:-)

buddhabman · March 2004

First of all, Thanks Pat for adding the Saabs to the list.

Acura TSX and TL
Audi A4
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
Jaguar X-Type
Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Saab 9-3 and 9-5
Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

Here are my rankings, what I would buy now(within 40-42K cap) if I wanted to buy a "Entry Level Luxury Perfrmance Sedan":

1.) Acura TL
2.) BMW 330i w/Sport Pkg - 6spd
3.) Saab 9-5 Aero - 5spd
4.) Audi A4 3.0 Quattro Sport Pkq - 6spd
5.) Volvo S60 R
6.) Infiniti G35 Sedan Sport Pkg - 6spd
7.) Saab 9-3 Aero - 6spd
8.) Cadillac CTS w/Sport Pkg
9.) Jaguar X Type
10.)Lexus IS300
10.)Mercedes C240 w/Sport Pkg
11.)Volvo S40
12.)Infiniti I35
13.)Lexus ES300
14.)Volvo S60

fedlawman · March 2004

http://www.world-challenge.com/2004/events/seb/tc-results.html

Right now, fourteen BMW 3-series drivers are wondering how they got whooped by a FWD, 4 banger.

raher · March 2004

Ooh boy those RWD only folks have got a task on their hands coming up with an explanation as to how this could have happened. I guess the guy driving the TSX didn't know he didn't stand a chance because of torque steer and knowing in advance those RWD guys had "perfect balance".blah blah blah
Once again that old addage turns out to be true..when the green flag drops, the BS stops!

kdshapiro · March 2004

Between the TL and 3series. It depends on your priorities. If I wanted seat of the pants M3, for 3 series prices, it would be ZHP at the top of the list. If I cared not about the precision feel of a BMW and slickness of the looks and just needed a car.. I will admit if those were the only 14 cars in the universe, it would be the Acura TL.

qbrozen · March 2004

i haven't driven one yet, but by all accounts and specs thus far, I'd have to say the new S40 T5 6-speed is going to be high up on this list for me. Certainly much higher than number 11 (looking at buddha's list).

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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