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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    The Caddy that really interests me is the CTS-V. But, now you're talking about hitting that $70K range, where a lot of nice iron resides.

    So, it's not like they don't have any models that catches my eye.

    FN...rented a CTS coupe during an out of town business meeting. Was it nice? Yeah! Was it something I'd plop my own money down for? Not hardly.

    Like you, I always considered the CTS to be the competition for the 3 or A4 or C Class. Cadillac touted it as competition for the 5, A6 or E class. That doesn't make it true, though. So, now Cadillac is saying the ATS is the competitor for the 3, A4, C? We'll see.

    Once they show up at Hertz, I'll give one a spin.

    It scares me more than a little to see the complicated electronics in the ATS and realize this was a the brain child of GM. It could just as easily be a catastrophe for them as it would be a success.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    I have driven a couple of CTS-v sedans.
    They have good points, IMHO.
    TQ from that S/C V8 is one.
    If an ATS-v is available when the lease runs out
    on the BMW I am driving, I will at least test one.
    - Ray
    TQ junkie . . .
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    ray...I'd do the same. If they would come out with an ATS-V, at a price that fits, I'd certainly check it out. I don't know if they could shoehorn a Camaro SS motor in it, though (which is what I'd like to see).

    I don't know if the ATS is AWD, RWD, FWD, or a combination.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    So to get BMW lovers to "consider" a car non BMW it must have 45o hp and fit a price level, a bmw can have an old 6 and 230 Amd cost in the mid 40s and Do no wrong. Snob factor just hit it's highs The initial reviews have been very good see another below.

    http://www.stltoday.com/classifieds/transportation/reviews/cadillac-ats-it-sure-- beats-playing-golf/article_b2e28cdb-2bba-53cb-80c0-e9e1b7449d16.html
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Graphic, like you I'll rent the ATS a couple of times, and get about 300 to 400 miles in them, not the typical 15 mile test drive. I have been looking for a XTS to hit the lots so far no go, even in Detroit National hasn't had them yet.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    Given the weight I anticipate for an ATS-v,
    I would probably not require 450 HP.
    My BMW 3 has 320 HP and 370 TQ.
    Something in the 350-400 HP range would be something
    I would ‘consider’.
    And more TQ = better, for me.
    There will be other factors I’ll consider.
    But that’s just me.
    - Ray
    BMW lover – and snob, I guess . . .
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    M6, I truly hope the ATS is a success, I have never said other wise, in fact my partner and I have been waiting to build one, a FWD Turbo 4 Performance with manual and the options I like can be had for 42K. I wish I could compare that build ATS with a 2013 328i with the options I would want on it, I' thinking they will come out about the same price or close to it. But when it comes down to the hype, the ATS has fallen short, 270hp should be better then what GM has posted for the 0-60. Same can be said about the V6.

    I forgot who posted it, but I do not think the ATS will pull people out of their 3 series, but it will allow people who have a chevy or maybe a Buick into the Caddy showroom and upgrade to the ATS. Time will tell and again I hope the ATS is a success.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    The following is from a blog post from Inside Line. Just for conversation.

    "The most reliable rumor-mongers have the ATS-V getting the same direct-injection, 5.5-liter, fifth-generation small-block V8 that's going into the C7 Corvette. If that naturally aspirated engine comes in around 460 hp, it would put the ATS-V a comfortable 100 ponies behind the supercharged 6.2-liter small-block V8 in the CTS-V. Throw in a choice of new manual or automatic seven-speed transmissions and it all sounds delectable."
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    'a FWD Turbo 4 Performance'
    I thought RWD or AWD were the only 2 options here?
    - Ray
    Possibly confused....
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,036
    RWD and AWD are the only options for the CTS. And the manual is only available on the RWD so I have not idea what FN built on the site.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    The 6 on the ats I think will be 330hp - so could be the wheelhouse .

    Fn building a car with Fwd.. Must be a leader add, how's the Acura nsx search going ?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    edited July 2012
    Analyst Rates ATS over BMW 3-Series

    Edit: Ha! After reading the entire article, I see it's the same Edmunds analyst.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Sorry my bad, I meant to say RWD, happens when you are multi tasking...
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The thing that everyone seems to be missing with the ATS is that it's basically what the CTS should have been in the first place. It has a much shorter wheelbase and is several hundred pounds lighter. If you check videos online, you'll see a version of it screaming around the Nurburgring at silly fast speeds which is almost certainly a ATS-V prototype. Dropping that much weight makes a huge difference.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    I don't think the cts- missed its mark- certainly when you add in the cts-v in all trims- fastest production sedan and a muscle wagon with a stick shift (that's when you turn the gears by hand). This is a car that helped keep the brand.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    I'm just going to reserve any more comments until I spent time in the ATS, one of the nice perks of traveling so much, being able to drive a lot of cars. Not just being a arm chair quarter driver.

    FN
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Sweeny how much real driving time do you have in a CTS to make that comment?
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    The comment that it saved the brand?

    No real world driving at all, would love to own a 6speed wagon Cts but out of my range at 70k. My comments are on the sales numbers - and the critics reviews of the family of cTs cars, can't argue to value aspect either on a cTs v vs the m5 or e63, talking 25k in savings, faster car (not that this means much), and loved by the auto press, plus a wagon with 550hp and a 6speed is as cool as it gets. Pretty amazing stuff from America.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    Reading what others have commented and real world driving experience are completely different, there are times when I read Car and Driver and the comments I read about a car I have personally driven, differ then what the writers are saying. The CTS wagon is a good example, on paper it should be a winner, however the rear seat room is horrible, less space then a E90 3 series, the drivers seat while comfortable, not much legroom for me. Others have stated the same thing, the powertrain is only a portion of the car, it is how everything works together. The perfect example of this is the Vette, wonderful powertrain, very easy to drift the car and the wonderful baritone exhaust note but the interior is dated and cheap for the price point that GM charges.

    The ATS and XTS are the new Caddy and I hope that they succeed where caddy has failed in the past. CTS has been marginally successful and we all know the STS was a failure from the gate.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    I agree real world driving is something you have to consider- but I would take car and driver, consumer reports and top gear over your comments from some rental car you picked up in Ohio, and drove for 2 days. It's your opinion and it's worth something to you, not everyone.

    While I agree the vett interior stinks, but like you stated the power train is terrific (easy to drift I guess you could add, and did :confuse: ), but it's still the best seller in the segment, why ? 430 hp for 50k. I have also stated in the past that I think the pre2011 3 series has a rather boring interior, and it's laughable they Charge you for paint and leather (this is a lux car right), Bluetooth and I have also stated for 35-40-50k you can get more powerful sedan for what BMW charges.

    Marginal success for the cts- past 2 years they have outsold the TL, 2008 was mot car of year And was 10 best for 2008 and 09, And 2010 and in 2010 MT said it maybe the best American car ever made.

    Sts don't know it- not sure it's in this class
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    The CTS has been out now for 10 years and just now is selling well... TL been out since 1996 and have sold well from day one. In fact it was second best selling car in it's class behind BWM 3 series.

    The Vette is a car everybody wish's they could own, it is an American Icon, however, some of us have owned a vette and had a very poor experience with it. I believe the vette sells well, but it doesn't have the highest return customer based as other sports car do, and why is that? I believe Porsche has the highest repeat customer base, why is that? Better built cars? Better driving satisfaction? Can't be the price as the Porsche's prices keep going up.. Something keeps customers coming back to the brand.

    Again the question is, will the new ATS and XTS change peoples perception about GM and Caddy to keep people coming back to the brand.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    FWIW - As someone who did drive a [ 2007 ] Corvette for over 30,000 miles, I will say this:

    I long wanted a top tier sports car. The planets aligned in late 2006, and I bought the Corvette. Although I did enjoy most every mile I drove it, I am not a typical Corvette owner in several respects – and once I had my ‘fix’, I was content to move on.

    I knew what I was buying. The interior worked well for me. The seats in the 3LT I found quite comfortable and supportive, in street driving. And nothing ever buzzed or rattled or came adrift.

    - Ray
    Satisfied with the Corvette driving experience . . .
    And open to an ELLPS with a version of a Corvette drivetrain . . .
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,190
    edited July 2012
    TL has sold well from day one, not exactly check the sales numbers from 2007 on. It hasn't been number 2 in a long time. Cts, My point is it saved the brand and was and is a success.

    Porsche comments - they build nice cars agree, still vette sells more cars and has been the top pick for years because of price and value.

    Ats Is the car That they hope will build on cts - cant comment on xts because like the sts above its off topic and don't care about limos.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,536
    edited July 2012
    ray....interesting to note your experiences...especially with the 'vette. That's a car that I always said (well, since I was 16), I want to own one. I had friends buy them. I rode in them. I even had the opportunity to drive a Lingenfelter Corvette. Once I did, the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"

    With a (then) wife, and a kid, the Corvette "jones" went away. Once the wife was gone, and the kid grew up, my tastes changed (to luxury sports sedans). I don't fall in love with my cars like others do. I know some Corvette aficionados who are die hard. I know many more who got their fix, and like you, let it go.

    I feel fortunate that I'm able to own some awfully fine cars...BMWs, Audis, Acuras, go fast Mustangs, etc. Had one Cadillac. Will never own another (a story for another time).

    FN...once the hype machine finishes on the ATS, we'll see how it shakes out. You're right, the CTS just started to be competitive with its last iteration. Even there, the competition has passed it by.

    The ATS may be a competitor to the 328i, or A4. But, how long will that last?

    The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time.

    So, renting a car is a good way for someone to get a feel for it. I know I've been able to rent a Benz, a Caddy, a Volvo (surprisingly good), and some others. I actually was able to get a lengthy test drive (longer than a day) on a BMW, Audi S4 and a Cadillac CTS coupe (which gave me the opportunity to cross it off my list). You come to some very realistic conclusions that the trade rags don't pay much attention to driving and using them as you would on a daily basis.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,577
    '..the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"

    One way in which I am different from most Corvette drivers is that I only have 1 car [ at a time ] and though I was able to do everything necessary with the 'Vette, most people have another vehicle [ or 3 ] to use for things like trips to Home Depot, etc.

    I drive a BMW now, partly because in some ways it is less 'extreme' than the Corvette. A plus as a 'fun only' car, for many. A minus as a utilitarian vehicle.

    YMMV.
    - Ray
    Watching with interest the ELLPS landscape ...
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,640
    the first generation TL was actually kind of a dog sales wise. Also very expensive. Once they redesigned it for 1999, that is when it became a hot seller.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    "The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."

    So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?

    I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    "The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."

    So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?

    I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I value magazine reviews of cars, but I take the opinions with a grain of salt. A road test done in isolation is good for a general overview of a car, but unless it is a comparison test with other cars, it is of limited value.

    A comparison test is better because memory of the cars is fresh and the venue, conditions, etc. are the same, making for a more accurate review. But still, all people are influenced by expectation bias and so there is no such thing as an unbiased and impartial road test.

    In the end, in choosing a car, you have to take in all the info and facts that are out there, test drive the car (hopefully long enough to discover the nits like the glare on the instruments when the sun is at certain angles, or that pressure point in the seat back that you won't notice until an hour of driving) and make a decision. With cars of this caliber, it will often be a decision of value, comfort, and aesthetics more than sheer performance.

    As for the ATS, until I see and drive it in person and see some instrumented performance testing alongside it's peers (same day, same track), I will reserve judgement on it.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,688
    M6, I think you need to reread what was written, "with all the hype the ATS has had, the ATS better come out swinging, and swing hard." The objective data that has been pointed out, with a car that makes more HP then BMW, one would assume the ATS would be faster. Subjective, the ATS is not faster. Again, I hope the ATS is a winner, competition only makes things better.

    With 30+ more HP and less weight then a 328i why isn't the ATS faster? Is BMW underrating the 2l turbo motor or is GM overrating the ATS engine?

    When a car is driving on a track this does not relate to real world driving experience, since the surface of the track is ultra smooth. Having a rental of the same car give a real work driving experience, remember, the rental car is usually the mid-line model, not the over the top end version that car mags get. Like Graphic, having rented some cars have saved me some mistakes, the CTS would have been one of them. The new Chrysler 300 is another perfect example, I was not that impressed with the first Gen, the second gen I like a lot, easier to see traffic lights and the fit and finish is much better, I wouldn't have known this if I had not rented the car. The V6 with the 8 spd transmission is a great combo, this is one car I agree with the auto mag's.
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