Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

graphicguy · July 2012

The Caddy that really interests me is the CTS-V. But, now you're talking about hitting that $70K range, where a lot of nice iron resides.

So, it's not like they don't have any models that catches my eye.

FN...rented a CTS coupe during an out of town business meeting. Was it nice? Yeah! Was it something I'd plop my own money down for? Not hardly.

Like you, I always considered the CTS to be the competition for the 3 or A4 or C Class. Cadillac touted it as competition for the 5, A6 or E class. That doesn't make it true, though. So, now Cadillac is saying the ATS is the competitor for the 3, A4, C? We'll see.

Once they show up at Hertz, I'll give one a spin.

It scares me more than a little to see the complicated electronics in the ATS and realize this was a the brain child of GM. It could just as easily be a catastrophe for them as it would be a success.

rayainsw · July 2012

I have driven a couple of CTS-v sedans.
They have good points, IMHO.
TQ from that S/C V8 is one.
If an ATS-v is available when the lease runs out
on the BMW I am driving, I will at least test one.
- Ray
TQ junkie . . .

graphicguy · July 2012

ray...I'd do the same. If they would come out with an ATS-V, at a price that fits, I'd certainly check it out. I don't know if they could shoehorn a Camaro SS motor in it, though (which is what I'd like to see).

I don't know if the ATS is AWD, RWD, FWD, or a combination.

sweendogy · July 2012

So to get BMW lovers to "consider" a car non BMW it must have 45o hp and fit a price level, a bmw can have an old 6 and 230 Amd cost in the mid 40s and Do no wrong. Snob factor just hit it's highs The initial reviews have been very good see another below.

http://www.stltoday.com/classifieds/transportation/reviews/cadillac-ats-it-sure-- beats-playing-golf/article_b2e28cdb-2bba-53cb-80c0-e9e1b7449d16.html

flightnurse · July 2012

Graphic, like you I'll rent the ATS a couple of times, and get about 300 to 400 miles in them, not the typical 15 mile test drive. I have been looking for a XTS to hit the lots so far no go, even in Detroit National hasn't had them yet.

rayainsw · July 2012

Given the weight I anticipate for an ATS-v,
I would probably not require 450 HP.
My BMW 3 has 320 HP and 370 TQ.
Something in the 350-400 HP range would be something
I would consider.
And more TQ = better, for me.
There will be other factors Ill consider.
But thats just me.
- Ray
BMW lover  and snob, I guess . . .

flightnurse · July 2012

M6, I truly hope the ATS is a success, I have never said other wise, in fact my partner and I have been waiting to build one, a FWD Turbo 4 Performance with manual and the options I like can be had for 42K. I wish I could compare that build ATS with a 2013 328i with the options I would want on it, I' thinking they will come out about the same price or close to it. But when it comes down to the hype, the ATS has fallen short, 270hp should be better then what GM has posted for the 0-60. Same can be said about the V6.

I forgot who posted it, but I do not think the ATS will pull people out of their 3 series, but it will allow people who have a chevy or maybe a Buick into the Caddy showroom and upgrade to the ATS. Time will tell and again I hope the ATS is a success.

m6user · July 2012

The following is from a blog post from Inside Line. Just for conversation.

"The most reliable rumor-mongers have the ATS-V getting the same direct-injection, 5.5-liter, fifth-generation small-block V8 that's going into the C7 Corvette. If that naturally aspirated engine comes in around 460 hp, it would put the ATS-V a comfortable 100 ponies behind the supercharged 6.2-liter small-block V8 in the CTS-V. Throw in a choice of new manual or automatic seven-speed transmissions and it all sounds delectable."

rayainsw · July 2012

'a FWD Turbo 4 Performance'
I thought RWD or AWD were the only 2 options here?
- Ray
Possibly confused....

robr2 · July 2012

RWD and AWD are the only options for the CTS. And the manual is only available on the RWD so I have not idea what FN built on the site.

sweendogy · July 2012

The 6 on the ats I think will be 330hp - so could be the wheelhouse .

Fn building a car with Fwd.. Must be a leader add, how's the Acura nsx search going ?

Kirstie_H · July 2012

Analyst Rates ATS over BMW 3-Series

Edit: Ha! After reading the entire article, I see it's the same Edmunds analyst.

flightnurse · July 2012

Sorry my bad, I meant to say RWD, happens when you are multi tasking...

plekto · July 2012

The thing that everyone seems to be missing with the ATS is that it's basically what the CTS should have been in the first place. It has a much shorter wheelbase and is several hundred pounds lighter. If you check videos online, you'll see a version of it screaming around the Nurburgring at silly fast speeds which is almost certainly a ATS-V prototype. Dropping that much weight makes a huge difference.

sweendogy · July 2012

I don't think the cts- missed its mark- certainly when you add in the cts-v in all trims- fastest production sedan and a muscle wagon with a stick shift (that's when you turn the gears by hand). This is a car that helped keep the brand.

flightnurse · July 2012

I'm just going to reserve any more comments until I spent time in the ATS, one of the nice perks of traveling so much, being able to drive a lot of cars. Not just being a arm chair quarter driver.

FN

flightnurse · July 2012

Sweeny how much real driving time do you have in a CTS to make that comment?

sweendogy · July 2012

The comment that it saved the brand?

No real world driving at all, would love to own a 6speed wagon Cts but out of my range at 70k. My comments are on the sales numbers - and the critics reviews of the family of cTs cars, can't argue to value aspect either on a cTs v vs the m5 or e63, talking 25k in savings, faster car (not that this means much), and loved by the auto press, plus a wagon with 550hp and a 6speed is as cool as it gets. Pretty amazing stuff from America.

flightnurse · July 2012

Reading what others have commented and real world driving experience are completely different, there are times when I read Car and Driver and the comments I read about a car I have personally driven, differ then what the writers are saying. The CTS wagon is a good example, on paper it should be a winner, however the rear seat room is horrible, less space then a E90 3 series, the drivers seat while comfortable, not much legroom for me. Others have stated the same thing, the powertrain is only a portion of the car, it is how everything works together. The perfect example of this is the Vette, wonderful powertrain, very easy to drift the car and the wonderful baritone exhaust note but the interior is dated and cheap for the price point that GM charges.

The ATS and XTS are the new Caddy and I hope that they succeed where caddy has failed in the past. CTS has been marginally successful and we all know the STS was a failure from the gate.

sweendogy · July 2012

I agree real world driving is something you have to consider- but I would take car and driver, consumer reports and top gear over your comments from some rental car you picked up in Ohio, and drove for 2 days. It's your opinion and it's worth something to you, not everyone.

While I agree the vett interior stinks, but like you stated the power train is terrific (easy to drift I guess you could add, and did :confuse: ), but it's still the best seller in the segment, why ? 430 hp for 50k. I have also stated in the past that I think the pre2011 3 series has a rather boring interior, and it's laughable they Charge you for paint and leather (this is a lux car right), Bluetooth and I have also stated for 35-40-50k you can get more powerful sedan for what BMW charges.

Marginal success for the cts- past 2 years they have outsold the TL, 2008 was mot car of year And was 10 best for 2008 and 09, And 2010 and in 2010 MT said it maybe the best American car ever made.

Sts don't know it- not sure it's in this class

flightnurse · July 2012

The CTS has been out now for 10 years and just now is selling well... TL been out since 1996 and have sold well from day one. In fact it was second best selling car in it's class behind BWM 3 series.

The Vette is a car everybody wish's they could own, it is an American Icon, however, some of us have owned a vette and had a very poor experience with it. I believe the vette sells well, but it doesn't have the highest return customer based as other sports car do, and why is that? I believe Porsche has the highest repeat customer base, why is that? Better built cars? Better driving satisfaction? Can't be the price as the Porsche's prices keep going up.. Something keeps customers coming back to the brand.

Again the question is, will the new ATS and XTS change peoples perception about GM and Caddy to keep people coming back to the brand.

rayainsw · July 2012

FWIW - As someone who did drive a [ 2007 ] Corvette for over 30,000 miles, I will say this:

I long wanted a top tier sports car. The planets aligned in late 2006, and I bought the Corvette. Although I did enjoy most every mile I drove it, I am not a typical Corvette owner in several respects  and once I had my fix, I was content to move on.

I knew what I was buying. The interior worked well for me. The seats in the 3LT I found quite comfortable and supportive, in street driving. And nothing ever buzzed or rattled or came adrift.

- Ray
Satisfied with the Corvette driving experience . . .
And open to an ELLPS with a version of a Corvette drivetrain . . .

sweendogy · July 2012

TL has sold well from day one, not exactly check the sales numbers from 2007 on. It hasn't been number 2 in a long time. Cts, My point is it saved the brand and was and is a success.

Porsche comments - they build nice cars agree, still vette sells more cars and has been the top pick for years because of price and value.

Ats Is the car That they hope will build on cts - cant comment on xts because like the sts above its off topic and don't care about limos.

graphicguy · July 2012

ray....interesting to note your experiences...especially with the 'vette. That's a car that I always said (well, since I was 16), I want to own one. I had friends buy them. I rode in them. I even had the opportunity to drive a Lingenfelter Corvette. Once I did, the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"

With a (then) wife, and a kid, the Corvette "jones" went away. Once the wife was gone, and the kid grew up, my tastes changed (to luxury sports sedans). I don't fall in love with my cars like others do. I know some Corvette aficionados who are die hard. I know many more who got their fix, and like you, let it go.

I feel fortunate that I'm able to own some awfully fine cars...BMWs, Audis, Acuras, go fast Mustangs, etc. Had one Cadillac. Will never own another (a story for another time).

FN...once the hype machine finishes on the ATS, we'll see how it shakes out. You're right, the CTS just started to be competitive with its last iteration. Even there, the competition has passed it by.

The ATS may be a competitor to the 328i, or A4. But, how long will that last?

The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time.

So, renting a car is a good way for someone to get a feel for it. I know I've been able to rent a Benz, a Caddy, a Volvo (surprisingly good), and some others. I actually was able to get a lengthy test drive (longer than a day) on a BMW, Audi S4 and a Cadillac CTS coupe (which gave me the opportunity to cross it off my list). You come to some very realistic conclusions that the trade rags don't pay much attention to driving and using them as you would on a daily basis.

rayainsw · July 2012

'..the allure diminished as I asked myself...."how much will I really drive this?"

One way in which I am different from most Corvette drivers is that I only have 1 car [ at a time ] and though I was able to do everything necessary with the 'Vette, most people have another vehicle [ or 3 ] to use for things like trips to Home Depot, etc.

I drive a BMW now, partly because in some ways it is less 'extreme' than the Corvette. A plus as a 'fun only' car, for many. A minus as a utilitarian vehicle.

YMMV.
- Ray
Watching with interest the ELLPS landscape ...

stickguy · July 2012

the first generation TL was actually kind of a dog sales wise. Also very expensive. Once they redesigned it for 1999, that is when it became a hot seller.

m6user · July 2012

"The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."

So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?

I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

m6user · July 2012

"The trade rags do a little track testing. Run around with a car for a few days, maybe a week. The most they drive a car is their "long term" fleet. Even there, that's only for a year, on average. And, not one person drives it for a long period of time."

So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above? How much track testing is done on a business rental? A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test? One person is working at a regular job, the other is doing nothing but evaluating a car. I guess reading any reviews by any kind of magazine or blog is a waste time. We should just wait for somebody on here to rent one for a couple days and give a thumbs up or thumbs down?

I like how some people put down the ATS right off the bat by READING about the 0-60 estimates from Cadillac(not professional testing or rental cars) and READING that it has an inch or so less back seat space than a 3(now that's what I base my decisions on, lol). Then turn around and ask someone else if they have any real world time in a vehicle as if they can't comment on it unless they have. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

fedlawman · July 2012

I value magazine reviews of cars, but I take the opinions with a grain of salt. A road test done in isolation is good for a general overview of a car, but unless it is a comparison test with other cars, it is of limited value.

A comparison test is better because memory of the cars is fresh and the venue, conditions, etc. are the same, making for a more accurate review. But still, all people are influenced by expectation bias and so there is no such thing as an unbiased and impartial road test.

In the end, in choosing a car, you have to take in all the info and facts that are out there, test drive the car (hopefully long enough to discover the nits like the glare on the instruments when the sun is at certain angles, or that pressure point in the seat back that you won't notice until an hour of driving) and make a decision. With cars of this caliber, it will often be a decision of value, comfort, and aesthetics more than sheer performance.

As for the ATS, until I see and drive it in person and see some instrumented performance testing alongside it's peers (same day, same track), I will reserve judgement on it.

flightnurse · July 2012

M6, I think you need to reread what was written, "with all the hype the ATS has had, the ATS better come out swinging, and swing hard." The objective data that has been pointed out, with a car that makes more HP then BMW, one would assume the ATS would be faster. Subjective, the ATS is not faster. Again, I hope the ATS is a winner, competition only makes things better.

With 30+ more HP and less weight then a 328i why isn't the ATS faster? Is BMW underrating the 2l turbo motor or is GM overrating the ATS engine?

When a car is driving on a track this does not relate to real world driving experience, since the surface of the track is ultra smooth. Having a rental of the same car give a real work driving experience, remember, the rental car is usually the mid-line model, not the over the top end version that car mags get. Like Graphic, having rented some cars have saved me some mistakes, the CTS would have been one of them. The new Chrysler 300 is another perfect example, I was not that impressed with the first Gen, the second gen I like a lot, easier to see traffic lights and the fit and finish is much better, I wouldn't have known this if I had not rented the car. The V6 with the 8 spd transmission is a great combo, this is one car I agree with the auto mag's.

flightnurse · July 2012

Ray I agree with you on your take of the Vette.. Lots of fun.. But not something I wont to keep long term.

dino001 · July 2012

Acceleration is due to torque, not horsepower. 328i torque is 255 lb-ft at 1250-4800 rpm, i.e. it gets maximum torque really fast and stays there for duration. ATS 2.0 has 260 lb-ft at 1700-5500 rpm. So those figures are about even, ATS higher horsepower is basically achieved by longer curve, i.e. you get benefit at screaming engine speeds. ATS higher torque starts a little higher rpm, which could make a difference in those 0-60 tests and possibly rolling start. Quarter mile and passing (40-60, 50-70 or similar) numbers are more important in real driving conditions - does anybody know those?
Another factor would be energy efficiency of parts (internal friction) and load from electrical power devices. The more stuff the vehicle has, the more drain it will experience. Aerodynamics is another thing, important at higher speeds, over 40 mph. All those factors would contribute to test numbers.

flightnurse · July 2012

Hey Dino, the Regal GS makes 295lbs of torque with 270hp, the 0-60 times is 6.3 seconds. Is this because it is FWD?

m6user · July 2012

"With the former(referring to ATS RWD version), the factory-estimated 0-to-60-mph time is 5.4 seconds, exactly the same as that of the 335i."

above from Automobilemag.com which was testing the 3.6l, automatic.

Slower? Inside Line did a full test on the 2.0L 328, manual, and the 0-60 was 5.9 sec. The ATS is supposed to do it in 5.7 according to GM. Since I haven't seen any third party documented testing for the ATS 2.0, manual, it will be yet to be determined. So I don't know where you're getting all your info. However, I think it's too early to automatically call it slower. Do you have some real data that says that the ATS 2.0L(the volume seller) is actually slower than the 328? I haven't seen it. In fact Motor Trend has the ATS beating the 335 on the skidpad in case you care about that sort of thing rather than rear seat room.

I think most of the mags drive the cars both on the track and in daily driving. The fact that most of the tests done so far on the ATS have been preproduction models at a raceway isn't the cars fault. Full tests will arrive shortly which is why I find it curious that you bashed it so quickly. Bias maybe? A lot car mag/blog outfits actually use the cars for a week or so to commute to work, haul stuff, etc besides doing some performance testing. Those are the ones that interest me more so than just a half day at the track type review. Comparisons like Fedlawman mentioned are also beneficial when cars are tested and driven back to back. Can't get that type of experience flying in and renting a car for a couple of days.

sweendogy · July 2012

M6 you hit it on the head, comments without fact are just opinions, which mean nothing- & you are right on the bias issue - its a joke.

Let's go down to hertz - pick up a cts basic, and compare it to an optioned (they way you ordered) BMW seems fair.

BMW - brain men washed.

graphicguy · July 2012

So renting a car while on a business trip for a couple of days is a better test than the above?

Yes!

How much track testing is done on a business rental?

None! I have track time, too. As just one example, I don't dump clutches from 4K rpm to get 0-60 times as that's not real world. I don't track my daily drivers.

A couple days rental is better because it's "real world" compared to several weeks of driving by several different professional reviewers during a year long test?

See above. I don't need a journalist to tell me if a car is good or not. Again, I have a goodly amount of track experience, too.

Like FN, I rent and drive a lot of cars during my business travels. That gives me a really good baseline of how any particular brand, model, car fits what I want in a car....not what a journalist tells me I must have.

I consider the trade rags to be entertaining. I don't consider them to be the end all to be all regarding the worth of any car. I can make that determination myself.

m6user · July 2012

"I consider the trade rags to be entertaining. I don't consider them to be the end all to be all regarding the worth of any car. I can make that determination myself. "

Really? I just read Motor Trend and buy whatever they tell me to. I thought everyone did. Now, I'm really impressed. :surprise:

Never seen a mag article that says "you should buy this car". Read a lot that say you should consider a car if you like certain things. Don't think anyone in here are sheep being led to the slaughter. I think most people read reviews and such to get some baseline information. The reason they are tested similarly is to have some sort of useful comparsion information. If the articles said "oh, I drove this vehicle real world for three days and really liked it cause it was peppy, handled curves good, was big inside and stopped on a dime". Not real useful information for readers.

I used to travel for major corporations and rented cars almost every week for years. All 50 states and 13 other countries. Only a couple of times did I rent a car that I actually ended up buying as there just aren't a lot luxury performance cars that fit my company's rental criteria or were available period. Just because I might have rented a VW and didn't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't like an Audi or because I liked a Maxima that I would love an Infiniti. Different beasts.

flightnurse · July 2012

I used to travel for major corporations and rented cars almost every week for years. All 50 states and 13 other countries. Only a couple of times did I rent a car that I actually ended up buying as there just aren't a lot luxury performance cars that fit my company's rental criteria or were available period. Just because I might have rented a VW and didn't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't like an Audi or because I liked a Maxima that I would love an Infiniti. Different beasts.

turning peoples words around seems to fave pastime on this forum. Renting a CTS sedan has saved me money, as I was interested in getting one, however, after renting two of them for a total of 500 miles, showed that the car was not going to work for me, when I did the typical dealer test drive, of all of 15 miles I didn't see some of the issues I had with the car. So for me, yes, renting cars does pay off.

m6user · July 2012

I don't know what you mean by turning peoples words around. If you said it, you said it. If you didn't mean what you said maybe you should proofread better or explain differently.

I totally agree that renting the actual model of car you are thinking of buying is a great idea. I'm just saying that I just can't remember ever renting, on a business trip, the exact car I was looking at. As far as really getting to know a car while on a business trip it didn't seem like a good evaluation for me as I was usually trying to find my way around on strange roads and in a hurry.

In fact, I remember renting a couple of Nissans one time and hated them. I later bought a 1996 Maxima. Based on my rental car experiences I never should have even considered a Nissan. But based on a lot of very postive reviews of the Maxima it peaked my interest and I rented one from a dealer for three days and drove it extensively with the soul purpose of evaluation. Ended up buying a loaded Maxima and loved it. It was a great car that really was in another league compared to the models that I had got for rental cars. It rode and handled great with plenty of pep and enough luxury for me at the time. Just proved to me that renting something in the brand didn't necessarily give me a good picture of all the models and how different they can be. Even now a Maxima is nearly Infiniti like while the Altima and others are, well, like Nissans.

dino001 · July 2012

FWD may be part of it - the mechanical losses are I think less (shorter shafts), but pulling is always less efficient than pushing and it must be more significant, otherwise race cars would be FWD. Another factor is probably transmission programming (tall gearing, early shifts) and internal losses.

sweendogy · July 2012

Mixing words - I think if you did a better job in researching you comments it would help the overall conversation- fact better then opinion - ie "tl 2nd best seller" and cTs a moderate success, and let's throw in the vett comments as well- I need meat, don't just give us veggies.

fedlawman · July 2012

Some cars reach 60 in 2nd, and some need a shift to 3rd to get there.

nyccarguy · July 2012

I'm in the midst of a 2 week vacation. Drove from my home in Stamford, CT to my cousin's home in Leesburg, VA & am now on the 2nd leg of my trip in Charlotte, NC. Obviously my vehicle of choice for routes 81 & 77 through VA & NC should be my 2011 E90 328xi, but since I've got a wife & 3 kids under 6, we opted to take my wife's Pilot;)

One of the rides in my cousin's garage here in NC is a 2010 G37S. Automatic, RWD, Sport Suspension. I got to sample it yesterday for myself.

I love the thickly bolstered sport seats with adjustable thigh support. The power that the 3.7L VQ pumps out is outstanding. The chassis is well balanced.

The brakes are good, but not outstanding (as they should be in a car w/ 326 horsepower). The ride was a bit on the bumpy side given the glass smooth roads here.

I would definitely give a CPO G37X a drive when my the lease on my 3 is up 2 years from now.

sweendogy · July 2012

HoW many miles does the 10 g have on it?

nyccarguy · July 2012

42K. He bought it with 14K on it. He loves it!

graphicguy · July 2012

I just read Motor Trend and buy whatever they tell me to.

To each their own. I know people who treat Consumer Reports as the bible when it comes to buying a car. I guess it's not too big of a stretch in saying some use C&D, MT, etc as the final word in buying a car, too.

I don't do it that way. But, far be it from me to criticize if someone does.

Like Fedlawman, I read the articles. Find them entertaining. I look at the specs and the performance panels (with the understanding of what they did to extract those numbers). That's about as far as it goes.

But, at the end of the day, they're still journalists whose opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

My favorite was Patrick Bedard of C&D. I couldn't care less about the way he tested anything. I just loved the way he wrote.

At the end of the day, the merits or demerits of any car reside with the person who is writing the check. As such, if that's me, a nice, lengthy test drive will tell me what I need to know.

The auto maker's hype machine goes full blitz when a new car or model is introduced. The trade rage writers are wined and dined during the manufacturer's roll out and test drives (usually in some exotic locale). The journalists, after this all expenses paid vacation, complements of (in this case) Cadillac, write about it in their blog, issue, etc.

I hope the ATS does well. Those of us in the U.S. have invested in GM to do well. When it comes to one being in my driveway? It doesn't interest me enough to even test drive it.

If it interests you, or anyone else on these boards, I will congratulate you if/when you buy one. And, I'll be happy and non-critical for/of you.

sweendogy · July 2012

He could need new pads- car rips thru them every 20k or so.

flightnurse · July 2012

M6, I guess the mindset could change everything. When I rent a car, I look at it as a extended test drive, as far as getting around, the wonders of the iPhone and the navigation come in handy. Granted I wont be able to find a ATS Turbo manual, but a ATS Auto will give me the idea on how the interior is set up for daily driving, how it feels getting in and out of the car more then twice or three times, how it feels driving in city or parking it on a daily basis, all of these makes a big different and a lot of time are over looked when you have a salesman trying to hype the car and you are evaluating it.

markcincinnati · July 2012

Long time posters here will know that I fell off the Audi wagon about a year ago and went with a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance. The car has lived up to its reputation of being "perfect" from a mechanical perspective -- I would assume this car would soldier on for years and years and 100's of thousands of miles with nothing but regular maintenance. This is the first car I have ever owned that seems to be deft at hiding the miles it shows on the odometer (20,000+ in 11 months). The Germans I have had showed their age unless they were "over maintained."

In fact there has only been one -- troubling -- issue with the car. The front brakes at 8,000 miles were warped (and "turned" as part of the warranty.) Again at 20,000 miles the tell-tale shuddering of warped rotors returned and they were again resurfaced. Today, two days after the resurfacing, the brakes feel "the way they should" in my opinion.

While the car was in for an oil change, tire rotation and brake resurfacing, my loaner car was a 2012 TL Tech. Not AWD, not Advance -- simply a nice 3.5L FWD TL with the tech package.

Previous loaners have always been new MDX's -- I can't remember when I actually had driven a TL that was not AWD and not Advance, in fact.

To cut to the message: I get out of my TL and into the FWD TL and motor off to run errands and drive all over the city of Columbus, OH for a few hours -- my first thought within one mile, "this car is a sofa." Had they given me a Lexus instead?

OK, here's my impression -- the TL FWD falls over its tires, i.e., understeers easily, has torque steer aplenty and is unimpressive for a car that probably lists (as my loaner was) close to $40K. There is no way it belongs in any discussion -- while keeping a straight face -- called Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans. It feels like an Accord or a Camry (or perhaps Avalon) for pity's sake. The steering is way overboosted and there doesn't appear to be any device affixed to the thing that provides any resistance to the massive body roll and exacerbated understeer this thing is capable of demonstrating.

No wonder all the good stuff written about the TL (for 2012) is about the SH-AWD Advance version -- without that level of trim, the thing is practically a joke with respect to "performance" entry level or other-wise.

I had no idea the difference would be so pronounced.

While I was there, I looked at the new RDX -- now without SH-AWD (good looking, upscale Honda CRV, NO SH-AWD, what were they thinking?) and the ILX -- better looking than a Civic but with a puny engine and 5 speed automatic, again it makes me wonder "what were they thinking?"

The TL, as mine is configured when driven back to back with an Audi S4, made me think, the TL was (for the money) an S4-lite (or S4 like) for $11,000+ less money.

Going from the German cars I have been used to in my garage since 1978 to the TL was, with this model, not terribly difficult. It does appear that Acura needs to really step up its game to be in the ELLPS crowd. As of my day in the life this weekend, I would say Acura is on probation to remain a member of this group.

2014 can't come soon enough! :shades:

m6user · July 2012

"While I was there, I looked at the new RDX -- now without SH-AWD (good looking, upscale Honda CRV, NO SH-AWD, what were they thinking?)"

I think they were thinking that the RDX with SH-AWD turbo 4 was selling like electric blankets in July and they had to either change it drastically or get rid of it. The new RDX is selling like crazy. So it appears that there were lots of people that SAID they loved the turbo and SH-AWD but those same people were not BUYING them. It's easy to say a company should do this or that when you have no skin in the game. However, if you're trying to make a profit you have to design and sell vehicles people will actually buy and not just post about on so-called enthusiusts forums.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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