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2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I had a bit of the opposite problem with my wife. We were trying to decide between another MDX and X5d to replace her MDX and then went to a Porsche dealer that had a 2012 Cayenne 6-speed manual in stock. Gorgeous black on black with all the right options and none of the dumb ones. Was willing to discount it to under $50k. My wife drove it and I almost had to pry her out with a crowbar. She was rowing those gears like it was a (slow) 911. But it was just a bit too small and I really didn't want to pay Porsche service costs for a vehicle that will likely be keeping for 8+ years and 120k+ miles. We ordered an X5d.
Not so ultimate driving machine
I was going to ask you if you drove a Cayenne coming off of your 5 1/2 year live affair with your 911 Cab. After an '05 530i & an '08 328xi, I was almost certain my Mom was going to go for an X5. She drove the X5 & liked it a lot, but then drove a Cayenne & fell in love. You definitely made the smart choice going with the X5 diesel. There's A LOT to be said for BMW's no cost maintenance.
Every time I spend a significant amount of time driving my wife's 2011 Pilot, I tell myself that it's comfortable & has adequate power. I drive my Prelude and enjoy the car's simplicity. I say to myself that I don't NEED a BMW (or BMW payment) as my commuter sled. Then I push my 328xi's start button and listen to the I6 purr to life. I love how the engine's power doesn't seem to peak, the perfectly weighted steering, the car's agility & balance, how it seems to cruise effortlessly at high speeds...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
My sense is that the new 3, being a little bigger, a little softer and a little more expensive, is creeping more and more into the "tweener" role that the 5-series used to play between the enthusiast 3 and executive 7. Especially when I look at dealer's websites and see almost nothing but automatic transmissions. At the present time, the largest Acura dealer in my area has 3 TL 6-speed manuals in stock and the largest BMW dealer has 0 (that's ZERO) 3-series with a stick in stock. What's next, cats sleeping with dogs??
Even the C-Net reviewer slipped into a bit of bipolarism when he longed for a manual transmission to better match the great engine, yet commented that a $50k+ car shouldn't have as much road noise and feedback.
It appears that the 135i is now BMW's enthusiast car. I was initially shocked when a golfing buddy showed up to our last outing this June driving a new 135i convertible. It was his "graduation present" for getting his last kid through college. I asked how he fit into that little "toy". He quickly pointed out that it has the same front seat interior room as his old 1987 M6, is considerably faster and better handling, and cost about the same amount.....25 years later. Not that price mattered - he owns/flys his own turboprop - but he bought the 135 for its virtues, which sounded a lot like why people used to buy the 3 series: DRIVING enjoyment.
So is the 3-series gradually evolving into less of the driving enthusiast's choice and more of a "mini-5"?
Same thing when I drove a 650i Convertible. Very pretty & incredibly fast, but for $100K I wasn't blown away. I'll take a 911 C2 Coupe for that kind of cash.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
As I said, I have the TL but my eye is on the 550 and the E63.
I wish - it is a tech error, and we can't edit posts. Well, we COULD, but it messes up the order of posts and that's worse. It's an intermittent error, so when you see it, the best thing to do is just post a new message with a new subject line, even if you're replying. It's the only cure.
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The 550i and E63 are nice cars, although for my taste, I also think the CLS550 is a great looking car and plenty fast enough that the E63 is hard to justify.
On the other hand, I'm not sure any ELLPS or even LPS is so enticing to me right now to have me dying to give up my 2004 TL. I could see driving it for the next 5+ years while having another fun car in the garage.
Wow then, have I got a deal for you:
2013 911 C2 Coupe: Racing Yellow and Black (or your choice); 7-speed manual transmission.
Options: Premium Package with Adaptive Sport Seats, PASM, Sport Chrono, Sport steering wheel. Period. No Sunroof, no Bose, and definitely none of the goofy things like alternating color seatbelts.
MSRP: $92,000 +/-; Order it today for $87,000
No, I'm not a dealer. I just want to live vicariously through someone else's wallet. And sorry, I know this has nothing to do with ELLPS - I won't let that happen again in this forum.
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Hey habitat, I feel the same way about my '05 TL. At 126K and never having had to fix much of anything on it, I'm easily good for 200K.
I'm just not all that impressed with the current crop - BMW getting soft, Audi too expensive, MB IMHO the nicest looking but less sporty, the G is great if you like raw power and growl instead of much refinement.
I really do miss my '98 A4, though.
For a while (2004 through 2006), Acura was arguably #2 in this segment under BMW. Audi was overshadowed by BMW, Infiniti was showing promise as a Japanese BMW alternative, and M-B wasn't an enthusiasts choice. Cadillac was showing promise and Lexus was failing as a Japanese BMW alternative.
Today, Audi is tops and Infiniti is arguable #2 being the best bang-for-the-buck choice in the segment. BMW and Acura have both lost their way (though the Roundel still has clout the cars don't deserve right now). Mercedes has improved quality and handling dynamics, and Cadillac has gained credibility with the Gen2 CTS (and the ATS is looking like a real player). Lexus remains content to do the same old thing and sell a ton of ES and RX 350's.
6 years from now, I'm sure the picture will be completely different again.
The new A3 sedan looks like a reincarnation of the 98 A4 with a modern feel.
I'm guessing at that point it would replace the A4 in this ELLPS list?
The new 5 series is OK, as I stated, if I was to get a 5 series it would be a 550i with the M sport package, which really makes it a M5 light. Yes, driving one is a lesson in control, as it is easy to drive it fast without knowing it.
The 1 series will become the 2 series starting in 2014 and BMW will be bring out a series of cars sort of like the Audi "S" cars, I have read that in 2014 the 235i will have a M performance package, sort of like what BMW did with the 3 series with the ZHP package. This is why it is hard for me to get sell my 330i, it was/is a true drivers car, something that the current 3 series is not. The M235i will get the 315hp turbo six, which would make me want to sell my 330i, it will be a drivers car. This is something that Infiniti hasn't done with the G, its not a drivers car. The M235i will be less then what i paid for my 330i and give me more performance, so it is a win win...
Audi makes some very nice cars, but for all of the accolades the A6 gets, I don't think of it as an enthusiasts choice. No manual transmission, very heavy, an AWD system that is FWD biased, etc. It performs quite well, in spite of all of that, but I still can't think of it as a true drivers car. And in the performance line of the S4, S5, S6 cars, I would still never put them in the enthusiast's league of the M3 or M5. More like AMG-lite.
If you are saying that Audi is #1 because they are the closest to "all things for all people", I'd probably agree. But they don't get my own blood boiling to dump my Acura TL and buy one tomorrow.
On another matter, I think BMW needs to steal some Porsche engineers and put their vehicles on a big diet. The 550i weighs damn near the same as a Porsche Cayenne SUV. Which, by the way, dropped 400 lbs in its redesign and the new 911 and Boxster have also lost a few pounds in the Porsche spa. Not sure why BMW, "the ultimate driving machine" has been so slow to use more aluminum and charge its engineers to do more with less (weight).
Other than being a bit poor in the snow, my '05 TL was just one of my favorite cars ever. Great over-all package and, IIRC, not a penny invested in ~ 85,000 miles other than routine maintenance/wear and a ton of Zaino!!! Every time I see the current-gen TL and "The Beak," I shed another tear (no offense to the current owners, still a fine car and beauty is in the eye...).
Why, oh why, did I trade the TL? Oh, yeah. Mid-life crisis...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
For years the Audi A6 quattro has been REAR WHEEL biased, but still uses a non-reactionary system.
The TT, on the other hand, did not start out with the TorSen system, rather it started out with the Haldex system (not that there is anything wrong with that), but it is FWD biased and it is a reactionary system, meaning there is some lag whilst the thing figures out there is a need for power at the opposite end and then shifts power appropriately.
The A6, since that is where we started, also can be equipped with a system that is called the sport differential, but you can call it a Torque Vectoring system and you'd be right. Acura's system is SH-AWD but it is, currently, implemented in its cars with SEVERE FWD bias (95%), and it, too, is reactionary. Those of you who have the 6-speed auto 305HP V6 TL SH-AWD can attest to the lag time in these reactionary systems by simply putting the transmission in drive and flooring the accelerator. For an instant (which seems like a second) the steering wheel twitches in your grip while the reaction time passes and the FWD power is shifted aft.
Try an Audi S4 or even an A4 -- both, like the A6, with Rear Biased AWD -- floor them -- there is zero torque steer, since the thing is 60% RWD biased and doesn't have to react, since TorSen differentials "bind in real time."
The new Audi A6 chassis, while still NOSE HEAVY, are much better with respect to weight distribution than they have ever been and somehow Audi has -- perhaps only for a brief 15 minutes of fame, so to speak -- managed to jump to the top of the heap insofar as performance is concerned.
And, despite its high price tag, the new S6 is a price performer when compared to both BMW and Mercedes models that can keep up with it. Yep, Audis have cranked up their prices -- but, if there is such a thing as bang for the buck in the over $60,000 crowd, today that accolade would be earned only by Audi.
I still remember my buddy who purchased a new 530 (RWD only) with a Premium Pack option, period. This was, admittedly 2002. My Audi A6 was a quattro with the sport package, premium wheels, nav and everything you could get on an A6, including premium paint -- oh yea, and it came with a 4.2L V8. My Audi was about $2K less. To even approximate the content (but not the engine) would have put the 530's msrp into orbit.
Where was I? Oh, yea -- A6 quattros have never been fwd biased, and for several years now they have been rwd biased, but with non-reactionary awd (which, admittedly, makes them a bit heavier than the other ELLPS and LPS offerings from Asia, Europe and the US.)
:P
Love the looks
Yup, 126K here in my '05 TL and no problems of any significance. While I sometimes wish for other cars, I know that if I ditched the TL I'd miss it. I learned that after ditching my '98 A4.
When I see newer TLs on the road, I have no desire whatsoever for a newer one. When i see my own model on the road, I still think it's one of the sharper looking cars out there. Acura really screwed up with the redesign.
An A4 Quattro with 6-speed manual starts at $35K. It's a better car than the 328i. It's also the sexiest looking car in this segment (inside and out) with the best combination of performance, elegance, and refinement.
IMO of course...
Thanks
Sorry if my post was misleading. I test drove the car at one of BMWUSA's drive for team USA last year. I drove the 650i convertible on a hot summer day. I know it's a grand tourer & not a true sports car, but c'mon. It's a sport package equipped BMW, not an MB SL550.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The A4, as with the TL, requires that you go with AWD to avoid their standard FWD setup. That's OK if you are comparing to a 328ix, but if the "P" in ELLPS is important, I still prefer the driving feel and dynamics of a 50/50 balanced RWD sedan. And, if you really want AWD and can get by the exterior looks of the TL, it appears to offer significantly better performance than the A4 Quattro.
Personally, I don't find Audi's exterior design on the A4 to be that much better than the TL. The A5 is seriously great looking, the A7 very good, but the A4/A6 still look slab sided and plain/boxy in my opinion. When I think "sexy", the A5 qualifies, but the A4 needs a lot of work. Even the C-class sedans beat the A4 for exterior looks, IMO.
Disclosure: I haven't driven a new A4 Quattro 6-speed manual. I am basing performance comparison on what is published and my limited experience with an automatic as a loaner. But giving up nearly 100hp to the TL and Acura's AWD system (perhaps) being more advanced from a handling perspective, leads me to believe that the A4 would not do well in a track test between the two. And maybe not against a 328i RWD.
But.....sexy is an "O", so I do respect your "IMO".
And the interior and exterior styling of the Audi is far better (again IMO). Better control layout and material quality in the Audi, and the Audi just goes down the road better (quieter cabin with classic German suspension tuning). It's the only $35k car here that makes you feel like you spent $45k when you're driving it.
The AWD TL is the best car Acura sells right now and I agree it's still a contender (I like it better than the G37). But I have to bump Acura down a notch from 6 years ago because as a whole, their lineup isn't very compelling.
True about the SL.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Aesthetic preferences are very subjective, and I respect yours. If the A4 had more of the look of the A5, I'd be more excited. Not sure how they would do that - maybe reshape it into an A7-lite and flair the sides a bit. As for going down the road better, I'll hold off on that until if and when I get behind the wheel. The 2010+/- A4 automatic I had as a service loaner was certainly not as you describe in quietness and luxury feel, but that was a couple of years ago and it may have been beaten up a bit.
Features vs. MoJo
Just curious as to how many of you would take the ELLPS with the smaller engine & more features vs. the car that would have you fighting to keep it below triple digits on public roads (if the costs were in the same ballpark) Daily driver of course?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
And yes, the A4 styling pales in comparison to the A5, which is drop dead gorgeous, but it appears to me as the most fluid and least contrived of the segment. Of course, there's just so much you can do with a 4-door 3-box design without sacrificing interior space/comfort.
I admit it's been a while since I've driven the TL, so maybe I need to refresh my memory? I remember it being a very nice car, but like all Honda's, a little less isolated in cabin noise vs. the competition.
The 550i 6MT weighs 4,350+ lbs, goes 0-60 in about 5.0 and gets 15/22 MPG. The CLS550 is 200 lbs lighter, goes 0-60 in 4.4 and is rated 17/25 MPG. The E55 AWD is another 115 lbs less than the CLS.
When I was vaguely contemplating an M5 in 2002, it weighed 4,000 lbs and with a high revving 400hp/369 ft.lb engine, was a few tenths quicker than the current 550i in spite of giving up 80 ft lbs of torque. Forget the handling comparison, the old M5 was much more precise, nimble and tossable than the current 550.
In the ELLPS, we have seen pretty steady improvements in performance, at not a huge increase in price. I would expect BMW to have maintained it's dominance with the 550i, but in my opinion, has been slow to put it on a diet and keep it positioned as the clear enthusiast's choice over some of the LPS competition. At least they do still offer a 6-speed manual. And maybe the added 40 hp in the performance package for 2013 will help. But I'd like to see it tip the scales at 3,950. That's still a half ton more than my beloved 1995 Maxima and only 400 lbs less than a Cayenne SUV. Come on, BMW, start doing those push ups and get rid of the flab.
Hey Fed, for me most Honda products are like appliances, they do what they are suppose to and don't leave a last impression. On my last trip arrived into Charotte NC late, got to rental car agency and had a problem, not many cars to choose from, had a couple of Chrysler 200s (no thanks), 2 Altima's, a Camry and an Accord. I had my choice of Tahoe or transverse. I took the Accord (its been a while since I have driven one) it was an EX. Nothing stood out for me, the driving position, the steering feel, the brakes, the handling. When one talks about the TL, I hear people talk about the top of the line model, not the entry level or mid level. The last time I drove a TL was back in 2008 and it was a Type S, nice car, very comfortable seats, but again, not else stood out.
so I would give up some motor (your car vs. a 335 say) to get the goodies like moonroof, fancier seats, etx.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The TL SH-AWD Advance with the a la carte addition of back-up sensors and splash gaurds is north of $47 or $48K depending on how many a la carte do-dads (which are nice) you check off.
The TL SH-AWD, however, is able to (mostly) keep up with the S4 (you've no doubt read the test report comparing the two cars, which shows them to have remarkably similar performance -- even though the Audi, in the end, does out-perform the Acura -- for $11,000+ more outlay.)
I call the TL SH-AWD Advance, an S4 "lite" or perhaps S4-like. Given a price independant choice, I would still, however, take the S4 without any hesitation.
I like the [Acura's] 19" wheels, blind spot warning, the ventilated seats, the best factory sound system ever and the torque vectoring, etc, etc, etc, all of which jack the cost of an S4 way too close to $60,000.
I went to Acura from a nearly $49K 2009 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige quattro sport -- the last in a long, long line of Audi products (which I dearly loved.) I wanted the performance of the Audi and the content of the Acura -- for UNDER $50K. The Acura is outgunned by the S4 (and yet the TL is NOT shamed by the S4), but [the TL Sh-AWD Advance] is priced like an Audi A4 Premium+ with a couple of options on it. And the Acura is "similar" in performance to the S4, which I would argue is at the top o' the heap of the desirable car list (that can be afforded by mere mortals.)
The TL is ugly, a step up from fugly, but a far cry from the beautiful A4 (IMHO). But once you're behind the wheel of the TL at, ahem, "highway" speeds listening to a great DVD-Audio disk, you quickly forget how the face and butt of the TL look.
Today, the TL remains an interesting proposition -- perhaps when Acura "rationalizes" the entire lineup, improves the styling and so forth, Acura will regain legitimacy in the Premium class. I await 2014 for some sign from above that they have once again found their way.
My hopes are high, but likewise are my doubts that they [Acura] will once again be a legitimate player in the ELLPS and LPS sandbox. The new RDX and ILX indicate they think they can get away with producing "Honda's who know someone" rather than real Premium cars.
And, you know what? If they sell enough of them, it doesn't matter one whit what any of us thinks. With Acura we're kind of at the same place we were (or are) with respect to manual transmissions -- no matter how we cry and whine (here on these boards), manual transmissions are virtually dead because "no one" buys them and it costs a lot to get a car certified for sale here in the US -- so why bother when the customer take up on stick shifts which used to be at 3% continues to fall and fall and fall into the abyss.
We have voted with our dollars -- and here we are. :surprise:
Drive it like you live.
Even the Tech version seems tinny, flimsy and not worthy -- of anything but the comment, "nice Honda." :confuse:
The top of the line must have some secret sauce, a "sport tuned" suspension perhaps(?) -- I had never driven any TL other than a TL SH-AWD Advance until 2 weeks ago. What a disappointment to drive the lesser vehicle. It wallowed (like a pig) and seemed to be soft and squishy, able to overpower its poor tires and wheels even on a cloverleaf exit ramp.
Damn near made me say "who screwed up this car, is this a joke?"
http://moneyland.time.com/2012/08/02/last-gasp-for-the-stick-shift/
2010 stats- odds of a camry being sold with a manual 1237 to one, total cars Sold 325k in the states.
Outbacks 1300 to one they sold 93k in the states
Acura TL 6305 to one
In the us Acura sold in 2010 total tl's of 34,049, simple math is 5.4 TLs with manuals - (mind you this is one of the sweetest manuals you could ever by for any money)
My point.
TL might be a nice car but it's no S4 or even an enthusiasts choice - even with its fancy long name.
My 2004 TL 6MT had a number of addiitonal performance features that none of the automatic models offered at the time: Brembo brakes, larger diameter stabilizer bars, "sport tuned" suspension, summer W-rated performance tires. But for the current 2012 model, Acura bagged the Brembo brakes completely (bad move) and made the suspensions equal across all AWD models regardless of base, Tech, Advance or 6MT.
What the TL SH-AWD 6MT offers is arguably one of the better close ratio short throw six speeds to be found in an ELLPS and a not insignificant 110 - 145 pound weight savings over the Tech and Advance automatics. To me, the driving difference between a 6MT and any of the automatic TL's is significant - with much more responsive acceleration and fun to drive factor. If you found there to be a difference between driving a Tech and an Advance in automatic form, I can't imagine where it's coming from. Possibly those ventilated seats, but not the engine, suspension, brakes or anything else that matters.
In 2004 they had the RSX which, while arguably not deserving of the Acura badge, was a terrific sports car (especially in "S" trim). Then there was the first gen TSX 6MT. It's ride, handling styling, driveline, etc. had such a synergy that, for me, made it an even match for the BMW 3-series. And the TL in 2004 was lean and mean, with good looks, powerful driveline, and sharp reflexes.
Today, the only Acura worth a second glance is the TL SH-AWD. And even their best has polarizing looks (I'm being polite ) and an unattractive cockpit with too many buttons (my opinion).
For me, even with a bottom-of-the-line A4, you get a handsome, elegant sedan that does no wrong. Now I'll admit that I'm not a bells and whistles kind of guy, so i don't care if my car has back up cameras, Nav, and surround audio. Hell, I even prefer cloth and pleather to genuine cowhide!
Oh well, I'm just one enthusiast with admittedly unconventional tastes. And I've admitted before that I became alienated from this segment several years ago when I discovered the joys of E30's.
Thank you and Habitat for setting the record straight on the SH-AWD - I did do it a disservice by not mentioning it in my initial comment.
Outbacks 1300 to one they sold 93k in the states
Acura TL 6305 to one "
I have one of those 2010 Camry 6 speed manuals. Love it. People say Camry's are boring, but the 6 speed manual makes it better than ANY automatic, CVT, whatever, in my opinion.
Where in the world did this stat come from? Had they discontinued the 6MT in 2010? (I wasn't in market and don't know).
In any event, there are 3 TL manuals sitting on Pohanka Acura's lot right now, and they have sold at least 10-12 so far this year. That kind of blows the 1 in 6305 out of the water for 2012. I've been told that manual transmissions on the TL this year are running about 3%, which would make it 33 to 1. Or 190 to 6305.
It is a shame in my opinion. The TL manual gets an 8.5 out of 10 on my scale for crisp feel, short throw. Behind my S2000 (rate 9) and 911S (rate 10), but ahead of all non-M BMW's, all Audi's, and the G37. Just rating the gearbox, mind you, not the car. On the other hand, the TL (and MDX) automatic gets a 3 on my rating scale. Way too much lag time and mushiness in response. The MDX and X5d have almost identical 0-60 times on paper, but when you drive them, they couldn't feel more different when you accelerate from a standstill or punch it on the highway.
Lots of guys on this board are auto lovers - but also claim to be enthusiast, they will talk dsg, dct, cvt all day long, one guy even mentioned Lamborghini as being now auto only as his argument- pretty funny stuff.
Enjoy the ride.