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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,631
    It appears that VW has built a GTi version with a diesel engine in Europe and has been selling very well. VW is thinking of bring it over here to the states, it gets the larger Hp rated 2l diesel that we get here 170hp and 250lbs of torque. The torque is up slightly, but the HP is up by 30, so what do you guys think of this?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,140
    flight just because you cant build a VW with a manual in a certain region doesnt mean you cant go to the dealer and ask them to order one..
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,140
    glad your an expert- or in the sense of the term means-

    I drove a 2010 GTS Cayenne for a day- agree the rig does get tight faster, never drove the base or the turbo so dont know if they are just as good, but car was pretty tight for an SUV
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I wasn't being serious.... no "expert" title for me....I was just making a joke based upon the fact that I actually test drove 1.3% of all manual transmission Cayennes Porsche sold in 2010. To achieve the same "experience" with a Camry, I would have had to test drive about 4,200 cars.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    I guess I expect all BMWs to drive kinda like my 328xi does. I drove that 650i Convertible and it didn't feel very nimble. You are right, I expect MORE from a car's settings in "SPORT PLUS" mode. I just felt like I was driving an SL made by BMW. Maybe that's their target market (Look, It's pretty & you can fit 2 golf bags in it. Drive it to the Country Club, then take your wife to dinner. No sacrifice in ride comfort...)

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    edited August 2012
    That's what I'm thinking stick. My current 328xi (with it's 230 hp) is no rocket, but definitely fast enough.

    Like I said before, I may not like the way the new F30 328xi (2.0 T 4cyl, electric power steering) drives nor will I want to part with the better part of $50K to get one. So if I do stick with an ELLPS, I'll probably end up with what I LOVE.

    If a BMW 335i w/o NAV were to pop up for sale around the time my lease is up, it might be worth a look. I rarely use the NAV & would easily give it up for a Sport Pkg car. Those Sport Seats are PERFECT for my 5'10" 150# frame:)

    EDIT: I see the link from BMWUSA's site doesn't work. The car is an '09 335xiA (sorry sweendogy) with premium, sport, probably cold weather with only 24K miles. Listed for $31,499.

    It won't be too much more than the lease buy out on my 328xi that will have 50K miles on it. Just thinking out loud as always.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I guess I expect all BMWs to drive kinda like my 328xi does.

    Forget it, at least until BMW goes on a serious weight loss program. I know vehicle weight isn't the only factor, but how can you have a "nimble feel" when a car like the 650ic weighs over 4,500 lbs. Here are some weights from ultra fit to morbidly obese. Any surprise that the order represents how nimble the vehicles feel

    Boxster: 2,888 lbs
    Boxster S: 2,910 lbs
    911 C2: 3,042 lbs
    911 S Cab: 3,318 lbs
    Z4: 3,549
    Panamera: 3,880
    SL550: 3,935 (2012 model was 4,200)
    640i: 4,192
    Cayenne V6: 4,398
    650iC: 4,531

    I know the list ranges from sports cars to SUV's, but in almost every case BMW has ballooned up in weight more than most of its competition. Audi was previously the fatso with many of their cars, but BMW is giving them a waddle for their money. And not that shaving 265 lbs off the SL was much more than kicking a deck chair off the Queen Mary, but at least Mercedes is trying to go in the right direction. The fact that the E class is now leaner than the 5 series is, IMO, embarrassing to BMW.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,219
    Mark....I certainly understand what you're saying. I do like the current TL SH AWD. I even like the styling (pre-nose surgery). But, I think you and I are probably in the minority.

    I saw the announcement for the new RL. Looks quite interesting. Also will be interesting what will happen with the TL, given the new update to the Accord. Seeing pics, and seeing reading the "updates", I'm not so certain that it will be a revolutionary update vs an evolutionary one. I do think the TL is going to need a revolutionary one. Then again, much of it's competition is pretty long-in-the-tooth, too. The ES/IS certainly hasn't been revolutionary, neither has the G (although it looks like it's due for an update based on the new Altima).

    Since you know the Cincinnati area like I do, I took the GF's S4 to Amish Country a couple of weeks ago. It's a great drive, over some great roads. As most know, the S4 has a DSG dual clutch trans. Frankly, it simply outperformed any manual trans I've ever driven....and I've driven a lot of them....some good, some bad. This trans trumped all of them, regardless what measurement you use.

    It downshifts at precisely the moment it needs to (does the same for upshifting, and also double clutches precisely when it needs to. In addition, it snaps of shifts way faster than I ever thought I could. It magically seems to know what gear to be in, too.

    NYC.....my 335i's trans is close in performance, but not quite what the S4 trans can do.

    If I can get that kind of performance out of auto/manual transmissions, I won't need a manual.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    If I can get that kind of performance out of auto/manual transmissions, I won't need a manual.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that no one in this forum NEEDS a manual or a DSG. If I have offended any Formula One drivers, my apologies.

    I've driven the new 911S with PDK transmission. According to the experts (the real ones, not me) it's crisper, faster and better than any other dual clutch auto manual made, including Ferraris latest and greatest. But it just doesn't give me that same sense of involvement and satisfaction. That's really what it's all about for me. And, I suspect, most others that prefer a three pedal manual transmission.

    Analogy: When I golf, I like to play the course from the tips (7,000+ yard back tees). I know it's likely to add 2-3+ strokes to my score over 18 holes, but I get more enjoyment playing the entire course than cut out 500+ yards so I can pat myself on the back for a slightly better score.

    There are some cars - the TL especially - in which the manual is clearly better than a traditional slushbox automatic in performance, objectively and subjectively. But there are other cars - the S4 and 911 to name two - in which the transmission choice merely represents a personal "engagement" preference. Agree?
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,140
    Really where we're you 3 mths ago? totally agree – be prepaired for auto lovers revolt, dsg and vws new automated manuall, someone will hit you with a Lamborghini comment about how all there cars are now auto-
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,667
    Buying my 2010 6 speed manual Camry:
    My local region did not allow you to choose a manual on the Toyota website. When I picked a zip code far enough East, it allowed me to pick a manual.
    My local dealers would order one for me, but I did not go that route because I know the price would be higher. So I looked at the dealer website inventories for the zip codes that were in the region that the Toyota website allowed you to pick a manual Camry, and sure enough, some dealers had them on the lot, although not many.
    Bottom line is you could get one any where in the country, although in some regions, your dealer would have to order it.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,140
    Thank you, i will let Flight know, enjoy rowing the gears.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,219
    Habitat1.... We're on the same page!
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,520
    'The Mercedes-Benz C-class, Lexus IS and ES and the Audi A4 earned the worst rating, "poor," in the new test.'

    FWIW:

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/14/autos/luxury-cars-crash-test/index.html?hpt=hp_t- 1
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 107
    I took delivery of a Volvo S60 T5 3 weeks ago. Very happy to see that it, along with the TL and Infiniti G, earned the top rating honors.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    Tell us what you think of your Volvo. What other cars did you look at besides it?

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I like the Mercedes response...paraphrasing (liberally)..."Obviously, if we didn't do well the test is flawed" :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Well the crash tests are very specific so the manufacturers can (and do) design the cars to pass the tests - regardless of whether it adds to the overall safety of passengers or not.

    I'm not super familiar with Euro NCAP standards, but I've heard they are different (offset impacts, pedestrian protection, etc.). Perhaps the Euro standards are at odds with some US standards so the Germans have to decide which test they want to design the car for?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Yeah, I think the Euro NCAP recently updated the pedestrian safety specifications, I'm not certain the north american tests have anything specific for pedestrians.

    I just admire the brashness of their statement :)

    I assume all manufacturers will eventually pass this test with a 'good' since some already do; hopefully not at a detriment to weight or cost...
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    These crash tests do change ALL THE TIME. Just because the car I'm looking at didn't do well in the latest "test" wouldn't detract me from buying it. I consider Mercedes-Benz to be at the fore front of safety. I remember my 2007 X3 got either a "5 star" or "best pick" safety rating, then in 2008 the X3's ranking went way down. Am I to think that a 2008 X3 is a death trap compared to the 2007 I had? I don't think so.

    Next year it will be the IIHS "BatWing Test" where the Mercedes-Benz C-Class performed better than every luxury brand in protecting occupants when Batman's "BatWing" is dropped on top of it.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    "I remember my 2007 X3 got either a "5 star" or "best pick" safety rating, then in 2008 the X3's ranking went way down. Am I to think that a 2008 X3 is a death trap compared to the 2007 I had? I don't think so."

    It's a long way from "the rating went down" to "death trap". Wow, exaggeration to make a point is always helpful, right? The tests are what they are and they don't change substantially from year to year and they apply to all manufacturers equally. Are they perfect? No, but they are better than nothing. Some of the comments here sound like Mercedes. If one doesn't like the results the tests are flawed. If a manufacturer at least, makes it safe enough to get a good rating I would have to believe it is a little safer than one that didn't. Please notice I said a "little safer". The ratings don't go from "you will not be harmed" directly to "death trap". Pleeeease.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,631
    Hey NYC, some thing else to loo into, the 650i weights more then you 328, this will offset how is handles too.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    I have to temper my last post with the understanding that the frontal crash test was in fact substantially changed and is now an offset front end crash against a stationary object. The old test simulated a headon with another vehicle. Don't know what changed from 2007 to 2008 though. Still, the fact remains the test applies to all equally and that these ratings do not go from absolutely safe to death trap as there are gradations and even the lowest rating would not be classified as inherently unsafe.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Posts: 107
    I've had the S60 for 3 weeks and I'm very happy with my choice. I test drove a LaCrosse, VW CC, Tauras, Azera. I've always been impressed with the ES 350, but there are so many of them here in Western PA. I wanted something different.

    Before I give my impressions of the S60 there a couple things you need to know. I was coming out of a 2005 Avalon Limited, which was a great car. This is a loaded 2013 and is my first "luxury/near luxury car." The front seat comfort for both the passenger and driver are outstanding. All of the controls are on the steering wheel or within easy reach. Handling is outstanding, power and acceleration are very good (this is my first turbo). Visibility is very good. The car has a solid feel. No rattles. The ride is a little choppy on rough roads, very good otherwise. I'm getting 30+ on the highway at about 65 mph and around 24 in mixed driving on regular.

    The phone, radio, NAV, etc. are accessed through the Volvo Sensus system, which works fine once you get past the learning curve. Our cell phones, iTouch work fine. The Sensus/NAV screen is not a touch screen. It's 7 inches. I wish it was a little larger. The tach. and speedometer are not backlit. The interior has that orderly understated look, but, not surprisingly, lacks "bling". Sensus is voice activated and works very well.

    I got all of the safety features, all of which seem to work as advertised. Two of the best are adaptive cruise control and active bending Xenon headlights. I find lane departure annoying, so I've shut it off. I don't let any of these "safety nannies" drive the car for me, but if they can give me a heads up, I'll take it.

    On the downside are a tight back seat and no spare. There is an inflation kit in the trunk. This was almost a deal breaker for me. The dealer threw in a donut spare, which comes in a fabric zip bag and is strapped down in the trunk, a + $200 option. This makes a smallish trunk even smaller.

    Volvo offers the Safe and Secure plan, which covers maintenance and repairs (even brakes) for 5 yrs. or 50,000 miles. (Tires are not covered under this plan.)

    The car is very fun to drive and I'm happy with it. Hope this helps.
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,140
    Jeffm - thanks for the review - I found it interesting the cars you cross shopped this against - Taurus and azera - cars that when you think about them seem to be in a different category but when you dive deep they are very similar - why not another Avalon , seems like Toyota improved a bit on the old one and it's a very near cousin to the es.

    The spare tire thing for Me would of been an issue as well- the Volvo have run flats?

    Good luck with the new rig- refreshing to see a newer car talked about here.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    My exaggeration was an attempt at humor that obviously didn't translate well given the medium. I know the car was by no means considered a death trap.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,538
    Fantastic write up Jeff. Glad you are happy with your S60;)

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,438
    I parked next to a black S60 with the saddle interior yesterday. Very sharp.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

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