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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Where in the world? Here buddy, I always do homework(ask flight).

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/viewall.html

    I bet you could get a sweet deal on those 3 sitting on your local dealers lot- not only does he have to sell a weird looking car - but he has to sell a manual of such car.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    And that was interesting homework, but I don't quite get it. The "take rate" for the TL is 5%, but the odds of one being sold is 6305 to 1?? 5% is a lot closer to the actual sales ratios I've heard.

    Interestingly, we came very close to getting a 2012 Cayenne 6-speed manual instead of a BMW X5d. Beautiful black on back one at Auto Palace in Pittsburgh. If it wasn't for the fact that it's just a hair too small inside and I didn't really want to pay Porsche service costs for the next 10 years and 150k miles, we would have gone for it. According to your article, that one has a take rate of 1.3% and an odds of 37,000 to one. Which means that at 5,000 to 1 for a hole in one, I should get 7+ aces if I let my wife get the Cayenne? Maybe I should rethink that.

    Thanks for posting your sources. Still not sure why the "take rate" and "odds of selling" are so at odds with one another. But at least I will know to never question your homework skills again.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2012
    Take it up with motor trend, its not my article as I didn't write it, I used it as a resource. I was surprised about the Camry number, also 50/50 rate on the S5 is pretty cool (save the manuals)

    Btw how are you getting to the number you heard?

    And yes I only post numbers that are researched, why clutter the board with Jargon or opinion when talking about specific numbers.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited August 2012
    The 3% number for Premium Cars with manual transmissions is the number the enthusiasts magazines used in 2010. I would assume the number has declined what with the increase in excellent 6, 7, and 8 speed "clutchless" automatics.

    For those of you who see no merit in comparing a TL SH-AWD to an S4, I do understand your incredulity. I was exactly in that mind-set until I drove the two cars back to back one long afternoon of test driving in June or July, 2011.

    There is no way the S4 is NOT more satisfying and overall believable as a performance car. Nevertheless, the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheels, driven exactly over the same test drive route and the same speeds (up to 90mph) feels somewhat like a diluted S4. The S4 is the better machine, there is no argument from me on that point. Where I found myself able to rationalize and accept the TL (after 29 Audis in a row) was when I contented the two similarly and found the Audi required an MSRP bump in excess of $11,000.

    I live in Cincinnati, a small city or a big town, replete with at least twice-daily traffic clogs on our three Interstates. The chances, my chances, that is, of being able to ever tap the potential of the S4 continue to erode -- although there remain a few chances to make forward progress at speeds in excess of 65MPH. The S4 does rip through the TL's performance envelope, but the TL SH-AWD with the 19" wheel and tire upgrade rips through most other car's performance envelopes -- but even then, there is a decreasing window of opportunity to use its performance.

    I have not been drinking any Kool-aid -- I am not suggesting you should succumb to the price differential if you are willing and able to pay the price for an S4 Prestige with several options that crank its price up over 5 figures more than the TL.

    What I am suggesting, or asking, is that you do test drive a TL SH-AWD advance or TL SH-AWD tech with the upgraded wheels and tires and with the super slick 6-speed stick.

    It is difficult to learn to love, let alone like, the TL's nose and butt, and the interior has "too much Honda" in it -- but damn, the TL SH-AWD Advance can be loaded up with options and leased for less than $550 per month for 36 months. If you have not driven this car equipped thusly, I believe you will be impressed.

    I do not believe you will think you are driving an S4, I believe you may think of the TL SH-AWD Advance as a "second cousin, twice removed," however.

    :shades:
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    What a horrible article, first off the VW, Toyota manuals are regional, my zip code you can not build a VW Tiguan or Toyota Camry with a manual. I believe this a east coast thing.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    O.K., I think I figured it out.

    The "take rate" of 5% for the TL means that 5% of all TL's in 2010 were manual transmissions. The 1 in 6305 odds of being sold means that of ALL cars sold in the US in 2010, 1 in 6,305 was a manual TL.

    Test: The "take rate" on the Camry was 3%, but the odds were 1 in 1237. Which if you do the math backwards, implies that there were about 8.5 times as many Camry's sold in the US than TL's. According to the site listed below, total TL sales were 34,039 in 2010 and total Camry sales were 327,804. That's 9.5 times as many, but given Motor Trend rounded the "take rate" to the nearest percent, is within the rounding error.

    sales by model

    Looking at it another way, total car sales in the US were 11,371,674 in 2010. Odds of one of those cars being a manual TL, 1 in 6305 = 1,804 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Camry, 1 in 1,237 = 9,193 total. Odds of one of those being a manual Cayenne, 1 in 37,361 = 304 total.

    P.S. I personally test drove 1.3% of all manual Cayennes made in 2010 (1 GTS and 3 V6's). Does that make me an "expert"??

    Cheers.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Article is what it is, its A well Respected car mag and You have the right to dissagree with it. Manuals for the Camry were dropped in 2012, prob the reason you can't build a manual in the region, or any region in the us, data cited was 2010.
    Vw you can still for 2012 get the Tiguan base S model without sunroof with a 6 speed. Don't know IF this goes away for 2013.

    I think your responce was incorrect.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Nice work on crunching the numbers.
    I don't get the "expert" part but for sure you were one of very few who drive such a car.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny I'm not incorrect, back in 2010 a co worker who moved from NC to PHX, had a 2010 Camry SE 4 cyl with a 6 spd manual, when I told him that you can't buy one here in PHX, he was shocked. Toyota has been doing this for years, having regional cars, now not too sure why one could not buy a SE with a stick nationwide.

    If you type in 28201 (Charlotte,NC) you can build yourself a Tiguan with 6 spd just as you stated, however, when type 85006, no 6 spd manual. So again, horrible article, if someone was to read tha article then they would think they should be able to to buy one.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    P.S. I personally test drove 1.3% of all manual Cayennes made in 2010 (1 GTS and 3 V6's). Does that make me an "expert"??

    In the sense of what the term expert means, yes.

    BTW, when I test drove a Cayenne GTS, I was very surprised how the size shrunk the faster I drove it. BTW, The GTS model's that Porsche builds IMO is the best one to get just the right amount of go fast goodies and luxury combined.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    It appears that VW has built a GTi version with a diesel engine in Europe and has been selling very well. VW is thinking of bring it over here to the states, it gets the larger Hp rated 2l diesel that we get here 170hp and 250lbs of torque. The torque is up slightly, but the HP is up by 30, so what do you guys think of this?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    flight just because you cant build a VW with a manual in a certain region doesnt mean you cant go to the dealer and ask them to order one..
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    glad your an expert- or in the sense of the term means-

    I drove a 2010 GTS Cayenne for a day- agree the rig does get tight faster, never drove the base or the turbo so dont know if they are just as good, but car was pretty tight for an SUV
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I wasn't being serious.... no "expert" title for me....I was just making a joke based upon the fact that I actually test drove 1.3% of all manual transmission Cayennes Porsche sold in 2010. To achieve the same "experience" with a Camry, I would have had to test drive about 4,200 cars.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    "ok"
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I guess I expect all BMWs to drive kinda like my 328xi does. I drove that 650i Convertible and it didn't feel very nimble. You are right, I expect MORE from a car's settings in "SPORT PLUS" mode. I just felt like I was driving an SL made by BMW. Maybe that's their target market (Look, It's pretty & you can fit 2 golf bags in it. Drive it to the Country Club, then take your wife to dinner. No sacrifice in ride comfort...)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    edited August 2012
    That's what I'm thinking stick. My current 328xi (with it's 230 hp) is no rocket, but definitely fast enough.

    Like I said before, I may not like the way the new F30 328xi (2.0 T 4cyl, electric power steering) drives nor will I want to part with the better part of $50K to get one. So if I do stick with an ELLPS, I'll probably end up with what I LOVE.

    If a BMW 335i w/o NAV were to pop up for sale around the time my lease is up, it might be worth a look. I rarely use the NAV & would easily give it up for a Sport Pkg car. Those Sport Seats are PERFECT for my 5'10" 150# frame:)

    EDIT: I see the link from BMWUSA's site doesn't work. The car is an '09 335xiA (sorry sweendogy) with premium, sport, probably cold weather with only 24K miles. Listed for $31,499.

    It won't be too much more than the lease buy out on my 328xi that will have 50K miles on it. Just thinking out loud as always.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I guess I expect all BMWs to drive kinda like my 328xi does.

    Forget it, at least until BMW goes on a serious weight loss program. I know vehicle weight isn't the only factor, but how can you have a "nimble feel" when a car like the 650ic weighs over 4,500 lbs. Here are some weights from ultra fit to morbidly obese. Any surprise that the order represents how nimble the vehicles feel

    Boxster: 2,888 lbs
    Boxster S: 2,910 lbs
    911 C2: 3,042 lbs
    911 S Cab: 3,318 lbs
    Z4: 3,549
    Panamera: 3,880
    SL550: 3,935 (2012 model was 4,200)
    640i: 4,192
    Cayenne V6: 4,398
    650iC: 4,531

    I know the list ranges from sports cars to SUV's, but in almost every case BMW has ballooned up in weight more than most of its competition. Audi was previously the fatso with many of their cars, but BMW is giving them a waddle for their money. And not that shaving 265 lbs off the SL was much more than kicking a deck chair off the Queen Mary, but at least Mercedes is trying to go in the right direction. The fact that the E class is now leaner than the 5 series is, IMO, embarrassing to BMW.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Mark....I certainly understand what you're saying. I do like the current TL SH AWD. I even like the styling (pre-nose surgery). But, I think you and I are probably in the minority.

    I saw the announcement for the new RL. Looks quite interesting. Also will be interesting what will happen with the TL, given the new update to the Accord. Seeing pics, and seeing reading the "updates", I'm not so certain that it will be a revolutionary update vs an evolutionary one. I do think the TL is going to need a revolutionary one. Then again, much of it's competition is pretty long-in-the-tooth, too. The ES/IS certainly hasn't been revolutionary, neither has the G (although it looks like it's due for an update based on the new Altima).

    Since you know the Cincinnati area like I do, I took the GF's S4 to Amish Country a couple of weeks ago. It's a great drive, over some great roads. As most know, the S4 has a DSG dual clutch trans. Frankly, it simply outperformed any manual trans I've ever driven....and I've driven a lot of them....some good, some bad. This trans trumped all of them, regardless what measurement you use.

    It downshifts at precisely the moment it needs to (does the same for upshifting, and also double clutches precisely when it needs to. In addition, it snaps of shifts way faster than I ever thought I could. It magically seems to know what gear to be in, too.

    NYC.....my 335i's trans is close in performance, but not quite what the S4 trans can do.

    If I can get that kind of performance out of auto/manual transmissions, I won't need a manual.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    If I can get that kind of performance out of auto/manual transmissions, I won't need a manual.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that no one in this forum NEEDS a manual or a DSG. If I have offended any Formula One drivers, my apologies.

    I've driven the new 911S with PDK transmission. According to the experts (the real ones, not me) it's crisper, faster and better than any other dual clutch auto manual made, including Ferraris latest and greatest. But it just doesn't give me that same sense of involvement and satisfaction. That's really what it's all about for me. And, I suspect, most others that prefer a three pedal manual transmission.

    Analogy: When I golf, I like to play the course from the tips (7,000+ yard back tees). I know it's likely to add 2-3+ strokes to my score over 18 holes, but I get more enjoyment playing the entire course than cut out 500+ yards so I can pat myself on the back for a slightly better score.

    There are some cars - the TL especially - in which the manual is clearly better than a traditional slushbox automatic in performance, objectively and subjectively. But there are other cars - the S4 and 911 to name two - in which the transmission choice merely represents a personal "engagement" preference. Agree?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Really where we're you 3 mths ago? totally agree – be prepaired for auto lovers revolt, dsg and vws new automated manuall, someone will hit you with a Lamborghini comment about how all there cars are now auto-
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Buying my 2010 6 speed manual Camry:
    My local region did not allow you to choose a manual on the Toyota website. When I picked a zip code far enough East, it allowed me to pick a manual.
    My local dealers would order one for me, but I did not go that route because I know the price would be higher. So I looked at the dealer website inventories for the zip codes that were in the region that the Toyota website allowed you to pick a manual Camry, and sure enough, some dealers had them on the lot, although not many.
    Bottom line is you could get one any where in the country, although in some regions, your dealer would have to order it.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Thank you, i will let Flight know, enjoy rowing the gears.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Habitat1.... We're on the same page!
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    'The Mercedes-Benz C-class, Lexus IS and ES and the Audi A4 earned the worst rating, "poor," in the new test.'

    FWIW:

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/14/autos/luxury-cars-crash-test/index.html?hpt=hp_t- 1
    2022 X3 M40i
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I took delivery of a Volvo S60 T5 3 weeks ago. Very happy to see that it, along with the TL and Infiniti G, earned the top rating honors.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Tell us what you think of your Volvo. What other cars did you look at besides it?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I like the Mercedes response...paraphrasing (liberally)..."Obviously, if we didn't do well the test is flawed" :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well the crash tests are very specific so the manufacturers can (and do) design the cars to pass the tests - regardless of whether it adds to the overall safety of passengers or not.

    I'm not super familiar with Euro NCAP standards, but I've heard they are different (offset impacts, pedestrian protection, etc.). Perhaps the Euro standards are at odds with some US standards so the Germans have to decide which test they want to design the car for?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Yeah, I think the Euro NCAP recently updated the pedestrian safety specifications, I'm not certain the north american tests have anything specific for pedestrians.

    I just admire the brashness of their statement :)

    I assume all manufacturers will eventually pass this test with a 'good' since some already do; hopefully not at a detriment to weight or cost...
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    These crash tests do change ALL THE TIME. Just because the car I'm looking at didn't do well in the latest "test" wouldn't detract me from buying it. I consider Mercedes-Benz to be at the fore front of safety. I remember my 2007 X3 got either a "5 star" or "best pick" safety rating, then in 2008 the X3's ranking went way down. Am I to think that a 2008 X3 is a death trap compared to the 2007 I had? I don't think so.

    Next year it will be the IIHS "BatWing Test" where the Mercedes-Benz C-Class performed better than every luxury brand in protecting occupants when Batman's "BatWing" is dropped on top of it.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    "I remember my 2007 X3 got either a "5 star" or "best pick" safety rating, then in 2008 the X3's ranking went way down. Am I to think that a 2008 X3 is a death trap compared to the 2007 I had? I don't think so."

    It's a long way from "the rating went down" to "death trap". Wow, exaggeration to make a point is always helpful, right? The tests are what they are and they don't change substantially from year to year and they apply to all manufacturers equally. Are they perfect? No, but they are better than nothing. Some of the comments here sound like Mercedes. If one doesn't like the results the tests are flawed. If a manufacturer at least, makes it safe enough to get a good rating I would have to believe it is a little safer than one that didn't. Please notice I said a "little safer". The ratings don't go from "you will not be harmed" directly to "death trap". Pleeeease.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey NYC, some thing else to loo into, the 650i weights more then you 328, this will offset how is handles too.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have to temper my last post with the understanding that the frontal crash test was in fact substantially changed and is now an offset front end crash against a stationary object. The old test simulated a headon with another vehicle. Don't know what changed from 2007 to 2008 though. Still, the fact remains the test applies to all equally and that these ratings do not go from absolutely safe to death trap as there are gradations and even the lowest rating would not be classified as inherently unsafe.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I've had the S60 for 3 weeks and I'm very happy with my choice. I test drove a LaCrosse, VW CC, Tauras, Azera. I've always been impressed with the ES 350, but there are so many of them here in Western PA. I wanted something different.

    Before I give my impressions of the S60 there a couple things you need to know. I was coming out of a 2005 Avalon Limited, which was a great car. This is a loaded 2013 and is my first "luxury/near luxury car." The front seat comfort for both the passenger and driver are outstanding. All of the controls are on the steering wheel or within easy reach. Handling is outstanding, power and acceleration are very good (this is my first turbo). Visibility is very good. The car has a solid feel. No rattles. The ride is a little choppy on rough roads, very good otherwise. I'm getting 30+ on the highway at about 65 mph and around 24 in mixed driving on regular.

    The phone, radio, NAV, etc. are accessed through the Volvo Sensus system, which works fine once you get past the learning curve. Our cell phones, iTouch work fine. The Sensus/NAV screen is not a touch screen. It's 7 inches. I wish it was a little larger. The tach. and speedometer are not backlit. The interior has that orderly understated look, but, not surprisingly, lacks "bling". Sensus is voice activated and works very well.

    I got all of the safety features, all of which seem to work as advertised. Two of the best are adaptive cruise control and active bending Xenon headlights. I find lane departure annoying, so I've shut it off. I don't let any of these "safety nannies" drive the car for me, but if they can give me a heads up, I'll take it.

    On the downside are a tight back seat and no spare. There is an inflation kit in the trunk. This was almost a deal breaker for me. The dealer threw in a donut spare, which comes in a fabric zip bag and is strapped down in the trunk, a + $200 option. This makes a smallish trunk even smaller.

    Volvo offers the Safe and Secure plan, which covers maintenance and repairs (even brakes) for 5 yrs. or 50,000 miles. (Tires are not covered under this plan.)

    The car is very fun to drive and I'm happy with it. Hope this helps.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Jeffm - thanks for the review - I found it interesting the cars you cross shopped this against - Taurus and azera - cars that when you think about them seem to be in a different category but when you dive deep they are very similar - why not another Avalon , seems like Toyota improved a bit on the old one and it's a very near cousin to the es.

    The spare tire thing for Me would of been an issue as well- the Volvo have run flats?

    Good luck with the new rig- refreshing to see a newer car talked about here.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    My exaggeration was an attempt at humor that obviously didn't translate well given the medium. I know the car was by no means considered a death trap.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Fantastic write up Jeff. Glad you are happy with your S60;)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    I parked next to a black S60 with the saddle interior yesterday. Very sharp.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    Interesting..

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited August 2012
    Auto start-stop was a little weird to me when I first got the Malibu Hybrid. Now I rarely notice it.

    It may seem like an annoyance, but in real-life, it's a non-issue.
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    We would have loved another Avalon and were looking forward to the 2013. Problem is the the front grill design, which we think is ugly. (No offense to those who find it sharp. These things are very subjective.)

    BTW, the LaCrosse is an impressive car, but those wide A pillars were a deal breaker.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The tests are what they are and they don't change substantially from year to year.

    Actually this this is a modification to an existing test. Years ago the IIHS decided that the head on test done by the government wasn't real world enough so they came out and tested offset crashes. The performance of most cars was poor so it forced automakers to design to get a good rating on this test.

    Now the IIHS has moved the target and changed the offset test from moderate overlap to small overlap. The moving target is the way the insurance industry gets the automakers to keep making vehicles safer in order to reduce the payouts they have to make.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited August 2012
    Hey Jeff...welcome. Nice write up on your new Volvo. Congratulations.

    Ray....thanks for the update. The couple of times I drove the new BMWs with the start/stop feature, left a very negative impression. Glad to see BMW recognizes they have a lot of work to do on the "feature" and has offered a way to permanently defeat it.

    Frankly, I'm surprised it made it past engineering at BMW given how poorly the feature operates (as in, it shudders the entire car).
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I'd like to see a cost/benefit analysis; how long will it take to pay for itself.

    I admit I haven't follow this technology, but I can't image it saving a huge amount of fuel. Plus I'm from the old school where it's ingrained that starting an engine equates to damage done (excessive wear).
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    I admit I haven't follow this technology, but I can't image it saving a huge amount of fuel.

    It would think depends on your driving environment. I could see start/stop saving 15-20% on fuel in traffic prone urban/suburban areas but out in the boonies perhaps less than 10%.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    I think if you have a hybrid that already runs occasionally with the gas engine off... .it's no big deal... And, either way, you could probably get used to it....

    But, I hated it, especially with the 4-cylinder.... and, if you had to disable it every time you started the car, that would be a non-starter for me... (pun intended, naturally..)

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Let me jump in here about the great BMW and its auto start - again its done so BMW can improve its MPG mandates - any gain is a good one, certainly when the 3 has to carry the line of bmws (x3,x5,x6 and m cars) Cafe results.

    To say the idea of turning a button off or on as a deal breaker is a joke, so many other dealbreakers somehow get overlooked - no Spare tire and run flats 2 that come to mind - inflated price another.

    When I bought my g - a coworker who had one told me to save the breaks I should shut down the stability control every time I get in- I have done so everyday I owned the car, no idea If this has helped the pads (I keep it on in rain). I also put a seat belt on every day- also not a deal breaker for me.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    edited August 2012
    I deliberately left the start/stop feature on during my 8 mile test loop in the new 335i and I could barely notice the start/stop.

    Frankly the price tag is a lot more of a deal-breaker for me( I buy my Bimmers well used to avoid the massive depreciation hit).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

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