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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    but it sounds to me like a TL SH-AWD 6 speed manual discounted to $36,000 would be the best of all worlds, compared to the forced compromises of the G37 AWD vs. manual. That's assuming you could get past the need for a nose and butt job.

    Too bad Acura snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory when they redesigned the TL from the generation I have (2004). I'm sure those unemployed Pontiac designers that they hired could have found work eventually.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Loved the Acura shifter, power good, service, Awd, but felt a little big- hated the look- and very busy dash- Loved my past Acura- not this one. - I'm not the only one, as sales numbers indicate.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN...I think you're right. I need to get the A/C checked.

    TL SH AWD handled better than a G AWD.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    "TL handled better...." I haven't seen any direct comparison tests done on the 2.. Would love to see the article- I've always wondered because the tL does have the SH-Awd vs infinitis setup of RWD bias. Please expand on this statement.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN....S4 is really a great car. Very fast, handles really well, ride is firm but comfortable...seems like the faster you drive it, the better it handles road imperfections. GF and I both are thrilled with it.

    That said, I like my 3, just for different reasons.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    "Too bad Acura snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory when they redesigned the TL from the generation I have (2004). I'm sure those unemployed Pontiac designers that they hired could have found work eventually."

    I said the same when I had my 2003 (so big deal), I went to the Auto show and saw the 2004- my first response was BLAH- too Accord and Camrish, just did not stand out as an entry level luxury.
    All the talk about beak this and beak that, if you put a G37, 2004-2008 TL and the 4G TL side by side, the 4G TL stands out as closest to entry level luxury. Trust me, I have seen the 3G and 4G TL side by side at the dealer and the 3G looks so y
    I have gotten INFINITE compliments on my TL, as a matter of fact it turned 3 years old last Friday and I took it to a local garage for a rotation and balance, the service guy asked if it was a new car- he said its really nice.

    This is just my HO. :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic but does the TL SH AWD drive better then a 335iX ? That is really the biggest question!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    If you prefer the looks of the 4G TL than good for you - because you are getting a heck of a good car beneath the skin.

    My "snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory" comment was really aimed at Acura shareholders, since sales of the 2009 TL, upon the redesign, dropped by well over 50% from what the 2004 model sold. And that was in a large part to the controversial looks. Here's the chart: TL Sales by year

    BMW had Bangle to contend with, not sure who at Acura decided all of a sudden that lots of chrome was in fashion, but it cost the company dearly in terms of sales. But, like I said, for those that can get past - or even prefer - the looks of the new TL, a 2012 TL SH-AWD 6-speed manual for $36,000 +/- is one hell of a good deal. Maybe not quite the enthusiast car as a 335Xi, but about $15k cheaper comparably equipped.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Can you pull the same data for Infiniti and Lexus?- Same time period.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    That particular chart source only showed historical TL sales. I'm sure if you Google searched around, you could find something similar for Infiniti and Lexus, as well as BMW and Audi.

    If it's any consolation, my old Maxima SE, which was a top seller in the 1990's and won COTY honors in 1995, has pretty much fallen off the ELLPS radar screen for most car shoppers today. I don't have the exact figures handy, but I think the current Maxima is selling at about 15% of the sales volume of my old 1995. Nissan really snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory on that one!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It got fat and got a CVT. Pretty much explains it IMO.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Agreed. And until the most recent design, went fugly as well. The current Maxima doesn't look half bad to me on the outside, but Nissan completely sold it's soul as a "four door sports car" at least a decade ago.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,418
    Is an ELLPS shopper right now. His 2008 A4 3.2 FWD S Line threw a rod at 39,000 miles. Luckily the dealer he had it towed to diagnosed the problem as hydrolock. His insurance company didn't think it was worth footing the $21,000 bill for a new engine, so they are going to total the car.

    His top choice is a G37S ('09 or '10 CPO). He's also going to look at some CPO 3ers w/ Sport Pkg. I'll keep you guys updated.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/08/usa-best-selling-luxury-vehicles-july-2012.- html

    Little research that M6user knows I love. Looks like the Acura re-due on the beak is helping its ytd numbers. Surprised to see the genesis has outsold the TL and A4 (by a few cars) YTD thou.

    Enjoy the link
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have gotten INFINITE compliments on my TL, as a matter of fact it turned 3 years old last Friday and I took it to a local garage for a rotation and balance, the service guy asked if it was a new car- he said its really nice.

    Speaking as an '05 TL owner, these generations of TLs are like girlfriends. The 04-08 (call her "Julie") is a couple of years older with an absolutely gorgeous face and a decent body. The 4G TL (call her "Flo") is the girl with the killer body but the somewhat doggy face!

    I'll keep Julie and you enjoy Flo!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    If it's any consolation, my old Maxima SE, which was a top seller in the 1990's and won COTY honors in 1995, has pretty much fallen off the ELLPS radar screen for most car shoppers today.

    Around 2000 I was driving my A4 2.8 quattro and when I was in for a service call I ended up with a rental Maxima. I thought that it had a great stereo and great power but that the handling and suspension were extremely underwhelming. The back end in particular felt bouncy. But of course I was coming from the A4 with a stick and sport package.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited August 2012
    FN......first and foremost, I consider the TL SH AWD to be in somewhat the same general vicinity as the 335i X. However, 335 is faster, handles better, and of course is less expemsive. TL still tugs on the steering wheel a little bit....even in AWD form. Still, for the money, you'd be hard pressed to find a car that mixes all of the attributes of torque vectoring, strong and smooth motor, top notch feature set of the TL SH AWD.

    It's cheap to keep, too.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    What price point does one have to hit to be considered to be ELLPS?

    What equipment does a car need to be considered a ELLPS?

    What is the balance between Luxury and Sport? All this talk about the TL SH AWD being just as good as S4 and 335iX, so is the only TL that can be considered a ELLPS?

    FN
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    Thanks for posting that data source - it is a great one to look through.

    However, not sure how you concluded that the TL's minor facelift has made much of a difference in sales? The YTD numbers are up slightly (12% +/-) through July 2012 vs. 2011, but they are also now giving away the car with up to $9,000 discounts. And the slight YTD bump is still nowhere near the sales volume of the worst/last year of the previous model.

    Here's the grim statistical truth about the Acura TL:

    2004-2006 Total US Sales: 227,461 (this is FWD only car, 1st 3 years after 2004 redesign. Average annual = 75,820. Up 37% from previous model, which still averaged 58k units last two years of it's "aged" design")

    2009-2011 Total US Sales: 98,906 (this in spite of now offering both FWD, AWD models with 2 different engines. Average annual 32,969; down 57% from previous model and down over 25,000 average sales from last two years of 2002-2003 model)

    You can't look at this in any way, shape or form (literally) and not call the 2009 Acura redesign a total screw up from a business perspective. Acura pumped tons of money into producing two drivetrains, two engine variants of the TL and sales ended up getting cut by well more than half thanks to going to Pontiac for aesthetic advice and to raid their chrome stockpile.

    Even Porsche, for all of their focus on engineering prowess, realizes that looks do matter and has continued to refine the classic 911 style. But Acura was too smart for their own good, threw the 2004-2008 exterior in the trash and look what it got them.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    "discounts of up to 9K", wow how pissed are owners of 2011s?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,513
    you do have to keep in mind the market was vastly different in 2009-2011, with the recession having a major impact. Plus of course, strong new competition in the segment.

    but, even my wife/daughter (who know zippo about cars) when we passed a current gen beak TL said "wow that is ugly".

    the 2004? my favorite. I almost bought a 2001 new (great deal, but I was too tall to fit comfortably, though I ended up with a 2000 for my son a few years back, so I have one in the family), and looked at the 2004 when it came out. IMO< a huge improvement. Better interior, more room, and also way better looking.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    stick.....I do think that the 4G TL's current styling is polarizing. That said, I remember when my dealer had a private showing for it when they first hit the street. I remember thinking how forward the styling was, which was something I liked. Clearly, I was in the minority because I liked it.

    The driving dynamics were quite a bit ahead of the 3G version, too. Tech was better, materials were better....just about everything was better with the 4G.

    Now, the polarizing styling has been "smoothed", other brands/models have caught up (and exceeded) TL's tech. From a price/performance aspect (with some pretty hefty Acura discounts), the TL (in SH AWD form) is still a compelling buy.

    It will be interesting to see if Acura makes the new RL(X)/TL(X) one model and drops the other. To me, the RL was never a real player in the lux field (E350, ES350, A6).

    I believe Acura could mine some gold with a "tweener", splitting the performance and lux difference between the TL and RL, having it priced accordingly (mid $40K).

    We'll see. Have heard of some nice specs on the new RL/TL car they've been parading around the car shows.

    Be interesting to see if Acura rolls out a TL-S next year. That always boosts sales.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Something else to consider, is Acura more aggressive in it's financing of the TL then ever before? I would have to say, yes. Before Acura (or Honda) really never would deal on their cars, but things have changed. So if someone is shopping purely on price, this could motivate people to buy a TL over say G even though the exterior isn't as nice at the G.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,513
    funny thing is, not long ago there was a newer TL parked on my street, and I thought it looked really sharp. It was a real dark blue, and looked great in that color. But in almost every other color (especially light ones) I did not like it at all.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    I see over on the G37 Board now you can lease one for $199, how infruiating it must be for the guys who are laying out $500+.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    ...why is there SH-AWD system such a gas hog??

    Compare the MDX (16/21 EPA) to a X5 3.5, ML 350 (both higher), or even a 400hp Cayenne S V8. No, wait, compare it to a 500 hp Cayenne Turbo (roughly the same at 15/22). Where is all that gas going??

    The TL SH-AWD (18/26) is below the E350 4-matic, 535xi (both 19/29), Audi A6 (19/28) and way, way below the 335ix (33 highway).

    Perhaps SH should be changed to SG for "sucks gas".

    I am probably connecting too many dots here, but when we test drove the new MDX against the competition, I felt like Acura put all of their time and attention into "gizmos" and not into decent, responsive automatic transmissions, engines and drivetrains for the current MDX. The fact that everyone else seems to offer both better fuel efficiency and actual performance (the 300 horses in the X5 3.5i are WAY bigger horses than the ones in the MDX) seems to reinforce my feelings.

    As for why the TL SH-AWD gets 20% lower fuel efficiency than a faster, more powerful 335xi is a bit of a conundrum.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2012
    Don't know- I don't lease. Scrolling the g37 board, nice- You looking to trade up/ price down?

    Wow 199 a great price - but wonder how much you need to put down? Maybe flight can land here with an answer.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    edited August 2012
    I see nothing close to that - and the 'deals' look to be
    low 3s to high 2s...?
    [ And those are with $$s 'down' ]
    Where did you see a G37 lease at $199/mo?
    - Ray
    Academic, today, but very interesting....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,760
    Once you factor in the required money up front, it's closer to $400/mo...

    But, the leases are for only 18 months... so, it's still a pretty good deal..

    Our G37X lease, which is ten months old... was for about $356 + tax.. for 36 months... so, we still feel okay... ;)

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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited August 2012
    habitat....while not the usual Honda/Acura fuel economy leader that we're used to, the 4G TL isn't too far off from what both my 335 and GF's S4 gets.

    Real world numbers are a bit different.

    When I had my TL SH AWD, I got about 18 MPG-19 MPG city. It fell down a little bit on the highway, getting 22MPG, or 23 MPG on a good day with nice weather.

    The 335 gets about 20 MPG city, but 28 MPG highway.

    The S4 (on a still green motor) gets 20 MPG city and 26 MPG-27 MPG on the highway.

    I know the F30 3 Series is supposed to make a big jump in MPG, but I haven't seen any reports yet.

    Be interesting to see if Acura does indeed go to a hybrid drivetrain with the 5G and what performance and fuel economy is derived.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,418
    edited August 2012
    I've figured out a different way home from work that has much less traffic than my normal route. According to my 328xi's trip computer, my average speed is up from 34 to over 44 mph. My gas mileage has improved too. I usually average about 20.5 mpg. This tank I'm up to 22.5.

    Filled up one AM before work & jumped right on 95. When I got off the highway, I checked the TC while sitting at a traffic light. Average speed was 72 mph & average fuel economy was over 27 mpg.

    As I've said before, none of this matters because it still costs $60 - $70 to fill it up;)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited August 2012
    When I had my TL SH AWD, I got about 18 MPG-19 MPG city. It fell down a little bit on the highway, getting 22MPG, or 23 MPG on a good day with nice weather.

    I realize that "real world numbers" can vary significantly for the "city" figure, depending upon how urban and stop and go the city driving actually is. But that 22-23 highway number you have quoted for your TL-AWD, unless its the Autobahn at an average speed into the triple digits, really sucks. I've never had a car that low, or even an SUV without a roof rack that low.

    My 2004 TL 6-speed is rated at 29 and will pretty consistently get 29-31 mpg at 70-75 mph for a 300+ mile highway drive.

    My former 2005 911S Cab, rated at 26, would consistently get 27+ on a similar highway drive, top up. 26+ top down.

    My former 2002 Honda S2000, rated at only 26, never got less than 28 and managed 32-33 on a few tankfuls cruising at 72-75.

    Even our 2005 MDX gets 23-24 on the highway, as long as we don't have bicycles on top. On our trip to and from North Carolina last week (1,200 miles total, including the week we were there), with two bicycles on the roof coming and going, averaged just under 20 (19.7).

    None of my numbers are read from a trip computer or for a short stretch. They are calculated by me filling up before and after, for trips that are at least 250-350 miles.

    On the other hand, all of our "city" mpg's suck no matter what we drive - welcome to DC.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2012
    Real world Mpgs in the g stink - 16 all in 90% city.
    Graph remember the battles on the TL board-

    Any update on the information request above - or was that a general statement/ opinion?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    My 330 gets 27 on the highway at 70.

    My 2000 Vette would get 27-29 on the highway, got to love a V8 that lops along at 1500 at 70 MPH..

    Partners Rogue gets 26 on highway

    Neighbors 2007 335i gets 27 on the highway, this is doing 65.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Infiniti has issues with the real world MPG of their cars, a friend had a M35, he traded in a BMW 530i for it, loved the car, had the MPG, the best he got on road trips was 23 on the highway.. He would get 27 with the 530i.. Even today the G and M do not deliver very good MPG.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    got to love a V8 that lops along at 1500 at 70 MPH.

    No thanks, and no offense, but the Corvette is, in many ways for me, the epitome of GM's screwed up engineering. It takes them twice as many liters of displacement to get the same power as Porsche or Ferrari, then they throw in a transmission that has to be downshifted into 4th gear to achieve terminal velocity? And, just so they don't get hit with a gas guzzler tax, they make that super tall 6th gear feel like you are lugging a locomotive?

    I was happy getting 27+ mpg at 70 mph at 2,500 rpm in 6th gear in my old 911 without having to play games with gear ratios.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Would have to say that statement for me could be the complete opposite on how I look at corvette at all. Twice as many liters, gearing (downshift) who cares you can get a vette for a third of the price if you are going to compaire them with Porsche and the Italians. Bad argument on so many levels - if you are going to bash gm the corvette is the wrong car to use as a reference. Enjoy the 911 and stick to talking about poor Mpgs in the mdx
  • hclllhclll Member Posts: 35
    Hi guys I am looking at the Audi A4 but I feel like I have to sit pretty low to get enough headroom without reclinging the seatback too much.

    I had 2 BMW 5 series and test drove a new F30 3 series they all seem to have bigger headroom than A4. Just wonder if you guys experienced the same, or it was my false impression....
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    I have a friend at work who has the 2009 A4-He is about 5"10", honestly, he looks like Mr.Incredible driving the A4.
    Literally he looks as if he is bending his neck to see the road and this is no exaggeration.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,418
    I posted about a friend of mine in South Fla who had a nice A4 3.2 S-Line that was totalled by either a large puddle or brilliant VW engineering.

    He originally started out looking for a CPO G37S Sedan. After speaking to him and raving about my 328xi, he decided to add a CPO 335i Sport Pkg to his short list. He was disappointed by the high asking prices of '09s & many dealers unwilling to budge off their asking prices. He got 1 place to come down $1000, but that was still over $4K over auction value. A dealer called him back and told him of a 2011 335i Sport Auto. The car is a 2011 Saphire Black/Black 335i Sedan w/ sport, premium, cold weather, navigation, automatic... Executive demo w/ 7,000 miles on it. MSRP of over $52K. He paid $37,500 + TTL. My friend has quickly forgotten about his beloved Audi. I hear the excitement in his voice when he tells me how much he LOVES everything about his 335i.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Your friend got a very good deal!
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,418
    He really did get a fantastic deal. Over $14,000 off sticker for a car with 7,000 miles. He even called 2 other dealers to see if they had any 2011 executive demos & they both told him to take the deal he was offered. He essentially paid what I paid (the capitalized cost of my lease) for my 328xi.

    He had looked at a few '09s. A dealer had one with 15K miles and was asking $35K. Another dealer had an '09 with 32K miles listed for $31K.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,513
    wonder if south Florida, August, and Black over black had anything to do with it?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hclllhclll Member Posts: 35
    I am 6'2 and have a longer torso, so it would be a problem to find a comfortable driving position in the new A4 right?

    Also did u guys notice the Audi dashboard is kinda of high, not like BMW's that is low in the sight?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    That's a good deal - but it also reminds me that I need to collect my "finder's fee" from my friend that I referred to BMW of Towson. They had a brand new (not demo) 535i 6-speed manual, sport package, etc. etc. with a sticker of $60,000+. They had it listed on their website as a "special" for several months at $50,900. I told him to hand them a check for $45k and dare them to rip it up. They did the deal in late June at $45,500.

    Unfortunately, Towson didn't have any remaining allocations for build to order 2012 X5d's, so I had to order ours from another dealer. But the sales manager was pretty good natured about it - said I can always come in and buy something from their sister Porsche dealer at $5,000 over MSRP to make up for the loss they took on my "hardball" friend.

    Reaffirms my belief that there are always good deals out there if you are willing to shop around..
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I have a friend who is 6'4", 210+/- and he drives an 2011 A5. Loves it. I would have thought the A4 would provide similar head and leg room, but maybe not. You might want to go back and re-check for yourself.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited August 2012
    "Reaffirms my belief that there are always good deals out there if you are willing to shop around.."

    Especially if you're not in a hurry, willing to walk away, drive 400 miles, and/or settle for options/colors that aren't your first (or even third) choice.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    You really need to check it out. Some people prefer a upright position, some like to lean back.

    I'm a similar height and I fit fine in any of the A4's from 1996 to the current one.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,513
    I was fine with your first 3 conditions. My wife violently objected to the last one (options/colors!)

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Yup, that's usually how it is...
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