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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,758
    While I'm sure that ATS looked nice, at $54K? No thank-you.

    I agree that $54K is a bit of a stretch for the ATS but you can option out a 3 series to almost $60K. I'm going to say that the ATS will do very well in the $35-40K price range

    The enthusiast mags are already saying the 3 has some serious competition in terms of driving dynamics. But the badge snobs will still flock to the 3 because of the roundel. Personally I'm not interested in driving what my neighbor's 25 yo live at home kid is leasing. I like to be noticed in something different.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Rob, the magazine's always say something like that when they aren't doing a comparison, on their own each might be a great car, but once you get the competition together the faults of each car are easy to see. I hope the ATS does well, competition only makes for a fun time and better products.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Habitat- the Escalate is just a suburban with bling, nothing extra was done to it and of course weren't built very well, can't use that as a comparison to a German built car.

    The reason why we got the Genesis at the price is the 2013 are rolling in, end of year, all manufactures are doing this, even BMW (with the 5 series). Currently here in Phoenix, BMW is offering $4500 off options (not too sure which option package they are referring to) plus $3K.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,458
    And I agree with you that a mid to high $50 something thousand dollar 3 series is absurd as well. Much of the 3's "advantages" may be gone as well due to electric power steering & suspension softening.

    While it is true that 328xis are EVERYWHERE, especially silver ones like mine, the E90 is still an absolute blast to drive. I welcome the competition as well. The ATS looks nice, the next IS should be more competitive, the next G will probably make all of us BMW nuts think twice before a return trip to our local dealer.

    When my lease is up in 2 years, I don't think I'll be shopping in this ELLPS category anyway.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,758
    Rob, the magazine's always say something like that when they aren't doing a comparison, on their own each might be a great car, but once you get the competition together the faults of each car are easy to see. I hope the ATS does well, competition only makes for a fun time and better products.

    You're right - until the 2 are compared side by side, it's all speculation. But if the worshipers of the temple of BMW say it has a chance...

    I too look forward to some competition for the 3 series. It's a great car but IMHO getting a little soft.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I too look forward to some competition for the 3 series. It's a great car but IMHO getting a little soft.

    Or....is it just that the 3 series has gotten too big? The current 3 series nearly as big (and heavy) as the 5 series from a few generations ago. And the current 5 is nearly as big as the 7 series was a few generations ago. Want small and nimble, a little one series, that seems tiny by today's standards, is not much smaller than a 1990 vintage 3 series.

    The 3 series can still be made to be tight, as was proven to me as I rode in the backseat of a 4-door M3 being driven by a BMW instructor at their track last week. But look at the relatively low percentage of 335i's that are equipped with manual transmissions today, let alone sport packages and suspensions. I don't think BMW has gotten soft by their own preference - rather it's more the result of their objective to increase sales and, as such, having to cater to a lower common denominator when it comes to American buyers. Frankly, I wish they'd just tell the softee buyers to pound salt and buy a Lexus. But then again, I'm not a BMW shareholder.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    I do hope the ATS is as good as what Cadillac has been saying in their commercials, however, history has proven that they have been short every time... I'm looking forward in driving a ATS and XTS, once national rental car gets them in, next week I'm back in Detroit so I'm hoping they have gotten the XTS.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,758
    I do hope the ATS is as good as what Cadillac has been saying in their commercials, however, history has proven that they have been short every time...

    I'm more interested in what the reviewers say as they get the most seat time in every car.

    As for what Cadillac says in the ads....I've never seen any advertiser say "Hey our product is mediocre."
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Bill did u own a Vigor when it was new?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Rob, I'm talking about history, and even on Cadillac web page they say it is better then a 3 series... I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself.
  • Why is this directed at me IVAN?
    FWIW, I agree with the Australian CEO.
  • I think I was still in high school but my older brother best friend had one and it was one sweet ride back then. Additionally, those name (VIGOR AND LEDGEND) catapulted the Acura brand. My sister's husband bought the Ledgend and that car was the talk of the town, I was aspiring to buy one.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Just because you agreed to the statement

    "As for what Cadillac says in the ads....I've never seen any advertiser say "Hey our product is mediocre."

    So I thought I'd point out where an employee (the top) made a public statement (which is sort of like an advertisement) saying their product was mediocre.

    btw...me too (agreeing with the CEO) :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Posts: 1,111
    Legend, integra and vigor - I agree totally made the brand "pop" certainly where I grew up in the urban jungle. (maxima another car, )

    Now they have the Acura tl-shawd advance package and a blump grill -
  • And they did away with names as numbers sound more prestigious... like the German makes.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,905
    We leased a Vigor in 1994... the last year... A loaded GS model.. It was my wife's car and we really liked it.. stickered for right around $29K

    5-cylinder, 172 HP... weak R134 A/C.. Killer lease deal (my first lease)..

    My aunt bought a new Legend in 1992... which is now sitting in my driveway.. 43K miles!! Original MSRP was $32,500..

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    A buddy of mine bought a Legend GS 6-speed manual sometime around 1994. Pretty interesting that BMW and Porsche (I believe) were still using 5-speed manuals at the time. Granted, it was still FWD, but for Acura, that may have been the pinnacle of their attempt to challenge the 5-series as the sport sedan leader.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,905
    I think in 1994, Acura was probably kicking BMW's butt... at least in sales...

    E34s weren't the most loved model that BMW ever came out with... and, then.. they had the Nikasil issues with the V-8 engines..

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  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,683
    edited September 2012
    So are you saying you have a 1992 Legend with 43,000 original miles. Wow.

    I really liked that generation of Legend. Very nice looking car, and clearly very well engineered. I still think it was a mistake to drop the Legend name, but obviously that's water that's been under the bridge for something like 15 years...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    What built Acura was the Legend and Integra and the total dealer experience, not the Vigor (the car was around for 2 or 3 yrs), again the name was stupid. I had a roommate at the time have one (bought new), and every time he drove me to the airport I swear I was in an Accord.... Now my roommates brother in law at a Legend LS which I thought was a nice car.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    If I'm not mistaken, even the original Legend was built upon an Accord platform - or some variation of it. The Integra was definitely based upon the Civic.

    Part of the problem/dilemma with Acura over the years is that they have not put enough distance between themselves and Honda in the engineering and product positioning of their vehicles. Both Lexus and Infiniti put a much bigger gap between themselves and their respective roots. Acura stuck with Honda based FWD and V6's, even in their top of the line cars; and as a result has had to fight the perception that the Integra, Legend, TL and even RL were simply gussied up Honda's. It wasn't until the 2007 MDX that it wasn't simply a well equipped, face-lifted Pilot. Lexus had that problem with the ES - a gussied up Camry - but the GS and LS had no Toyota counterpart and were made in Japan. The early G20 was a Sentra based car, but at least eventually evolved into its own identity with RWD. The M and Q were non-Nissans.

    The good news for Acura is that Honda is a better starting point than Nissan and Toyota, in my opinion. But they seemed to have bi-polar disorder in trying to establish a true luxury division and then chickening out when it came to competing with BMW and Mercedes. They could have, IMO.

    Off subject, the best engineered car, dollar for dollar, I have ever owned was my 2002 Honda S2000. RWD, 120hp/liter without turbos, as tight of a suspension as a Porsche. I just wish they had more balls to put some of their engineering prowess into something that competed with a 550i 6-speed manual. Or, just introduce a Honda S3000 so I have something to consider before I buy another Porsche. The upcoming NSX is over the top in stylistic craziness and will, I predict, be a non-event. The S2000 was revolutionary and forced Porsche to improve their Boxster. But I digress...
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    The Legend was a result of a joint venture with Britain's Austin Rover Group called Project XX that started in November 1981 with the Austin Rover-Honda XX letter of intent signed by the two companies to replace the Rover SD1 and to provide a luxury vehicle for Honda. ("Acura Legend", 15 August 2012 at 23:46.). So according to this, the legend was not an accord in any way which is what I thought.

    Yes, the Integra was based on the Civic.

    Acura Legend. (15 August 2012 at 23:46.). Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Legend
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Once again the Vigor was an Accord...

    The Honda Vigor is a compact sedan sold in Japan from 1981 to 1995. It was sold in North America from 1992 to 1994 as the Acura Vigor, a mid-size luxury car. The Vigor started out in Japan only in the early 1980s as a luxury level Accord, and as such was Honda's flagship sedan until the arrival of the Honda Legend. Acura Vigor. ( 23 August 2012 at 18:43.)

    Acura Vigor. ( 23 August 2012 at 18:43.). Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Vigor
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,905
    That's true.. the Vigor was a Japanese market Accord.

    But, all Acuras are Hondas.. The Acura nameplate is purely a marketing exercise for North America... They don't exist in the home market (but, the vehicles do..)

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  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Very true...which is why in Europe they sold the Honda NSX :shades:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Ooh, did you say "Sterling?" :P
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    Yup, I remember the Sterlings 825 better styling then the Legend, but for some reason wasn't as reliable as the Acura. I really like the 5 Door that was produced. My room mate who had the Vigor, his brother in law bought a 5 door Sterling, then later on bought a Legend.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,598
    This is true, but the dealer experience is what set them apart from the Honda dealers too. Even today there is a big difference between the Acura Dealer and the Honda Dealer, in regards to attitude..
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