Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1480481483485486590

Comments

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Yeah, I read it the same way.

    They pulled a Consumer Reports and gave the BMW the win based upon soft and fuzzy nonsense like the seats, and so on. Basically they looked damn hard for any reason whatsoever that they could to make their favorite car not lose the contest. Which is to be expected, really, considering that BMW kind of has been the benchmark for the segment since Volvo stopped making sports sedans in the 90s. They didn't want BMW to lose and any areas which were slight problems were probably given a pass versus them being super critical on the Cadillac. As is human nature when you're dealing with favorites vs a newcomer.

    But just like how Mercedes was the luxury car of choice for several decades (say, 1960-1990), BMW is now facing the same sort of problems Mercedes faced when the Japanese got into the fray. Except this time, it's GM coming for them. Nobody expected it and it has to be causing a lot of ulcers for BMW and Mercedes.

    That said, nobody is going to buy the ATS with the puny turbo engine. Everyone who has the money will buy the 3.6.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    They gave the win to BMW for OVERALL driving experience, the ATS might have a sportier ride, but after awhile, that sporty ride wears on you. C&D lived the BMW engine over the ATS, as well as the shifting. Now the interior of both are very different, I wish BNW would stop the all black interior, however, the ATS interior looks very busy.

    I rented my first XTS, have to say, I liked it, the size is between the 5 series and 7 series, the XTS needs more power, maybe turbo charge the 3.6l engine to make say 350hp. Still waiting for the ATS to make to the rental fleet.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,976
    But he did say the ATS was more fun to drive. Since we're talking sports sedans, shouldn't that be a priority?

    Also he closed the piece by saying that BMW has to get back to building sports sedans.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    "Well according to Car and Driver and carscoops it is. "

    Car scoops never said anything of the sort, it said both motor trend and c&d both placed ahead of it. Looks like car snoops is a news gathering blog of sorts.

    I've not driven either car but looking at the specs, and its most important spec being price I would be hard pressed, discounts aside to pick the caddy over the BMW. They seem pretty close on everything (I could be wrong) but if they are close on price why would you not pick the perennial leader.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    This is a legitimate approach, to go with something you know rather than pick up the newbie, if all things including price are at par.

    My take on the whole piece it is now up to GM what they do with ATS. If they see it as a good (great maybe) start and go on relentless self-improvement path, this could be start of something great. However, GM DOES NOT have best track record of self-improvement. If they declare a victory and then expect to sell this product unchanged for next 20 years (excaggerating, of course), this will not matter at all and BMW is safe, even if on their own merrit they depart from their core values.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    He also stated that the ATS was the first competitor to take down BMW. I'm sure BMW is aware of this, as we all know EPA # will be playing a big factor in how these cars perform it was interesting to note, that C/D averaged 23 MPG in the BNW while in the ATS they averaged 19. That is a significant difference.

    Something else the C/D editor stated was, the BMW engine was the better of the two, Again, the BMW won because it was over all better, fun to drive was one part of the equation here, but OVERALL makes it a winner.

    We can tear apart this review, and I knew people who hold on to just ONE part of the whole driving experience and point just to that and say, "Hey, we like to drive these cars because of XXX." However, winner aren't won because of one part of the test eval.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Dino I agree, however, GM has spent a lot of money on the car and have taken a completely different approach on this car as well as the XTS. I'm hoping that GM does continue to improve the car, this is where I think Infiniti lost it. Infiniti is happy to be where they are, I do not see GM being that way. As I stated before, this is great for us, I'm sure BMW will look at the ATS and say, HEY, we need to get serious about this again and make a mid-cycle change to the F30 that will pull it away from the pack... The ATS has more power then the BMW, however the engine in the BMW appears to make the power easier then the ATS...
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    I just read they put ATS on the dyno and it somehow "lost" so much of the power from the engine to the wheels that the output was comparable to 328. That could also partially explain the gas mileage disparity - drivertrain losses. Another explanation can be in the power curve itself. The ATS has probably much more "peaky" curve, which forces one to drive it harder to get similar performance.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    Has anybody driven a 10 year old Cadillac anything and come away impressed?? I certainly haven't.

    Yet last week I drove a 2001 BMW M5 with 120,000 miles on the odometer that a friend just bought from the original owner. This car drives better, with fewer rattles, than any 2 year old Caddy sitting on your local dealer lot. The paint looks better than a brand new Caddy.

    The fact is that for GM to be successful against BMW they have to produce a quality vehicle that will remain so for a decade. And they need to start with performance and pricing that is compellingly better. The fact that the ATS is priced the same, with no better performance than the 328 is IMO not going to win many crossover buyers.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    edited October 2012
    Well, Cadillac has a habit of large cash rebates, so let's wait and see how the transaction price will look in a year. I agree with the rest of the your point. It took GM 30 years to squander its long legacy, it may take them twice as long to rebuild it. When a trailing runner wants to get up front, they have to run faster, not just as fast. At best, it seems ATS is just as good, not better than 328. This is something to talk about, but it is NOT something that would suddenly make GM a new leader in next two years. If they undertstand it is not a drag race to next light, but rather a multistage championship tour, where everybody makes improvements constantly, they have a chance. If, on the other hand, they sit on the laurels of "job well done", they concede the chase, before they even started. ATS - good start, even really good start perhaps. Just don't assume you're done, GM.

    The longevity of the design is also a good question - we shall see about that in five to ten years.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I suspect a comparison of Automatic Transmission versions of these two cars would result in a different ranking.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    In whose favor?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,705
    Has anybody driven a 10 year old Cadillac anything and come away impressed??

    You've hit on something important. I drive a couple of Bimmers that are more than 10 years old* and both are still solid, good -looking cars that are enjoyable as well as reliable. The only problem for BMW is that I can't find a reason to spend the money on a new one. If they could recapture the magic of the Reitzle-era cars maybe I would.

    *2000 528i/146K
    *2001 330ciC/80K

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Again, the main problem here is that they are comparing a nasty turbo 4 to a 6. So of course the 6 wins in smoothness and torque delivery. Now, if they did the same with the V6 engine from GM, I suspect that the GM would win.

    I've seen both interiors, and the GM clearly wins.

    As for it being a little too sporty/stiff/whatever, I'd remind you that you want it to be a bit like that since the car will still drive great when it's 5 or 10 years old. Well, that and the reviewers are rapidly aging and have gotten soft. I test drove a Cadillac CTS with the sport suspension and it honestly was softer than my 1990 Volvo. Sure, it would bump a little here and there, but go sit in a BMW 3 series from the 80s. Those were like having the tires connected to a pogo stick. When you got the sport suspension, your teeth would rattle going over railroad tracks. It just was how it was back then.

    BMW has gotten soft. Go test drive a Subaru WRX if you want a car that hasn't changed or gotten soft when it comes to "sporty". Be prepared to grab some Advil, though, if you're a typical couch potato. Personally I think GM has hit the right amount of sporty in their new cars. Enough so that you get good results and not quite so bad that your fillings fall out. If you want a couch on wheels that cradles you and sucks up bumps, buy a Buick or Lexus.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "In whose favor?"

    I think the Cadillac would win. A simple reflash would change the power map for the engine and the transmission would mask any power deliver deficiencies that might remain.

    Of course, by the time the comparo is performed, BMW will release the MY14 and all the current complaints about the 3-series (soft suspension, numb steering, etc.) will be fixed.

    It's really kind of sad that BMW is basically building a RWD Buick right now.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    Hey Fed, you opened Pandora's box by using the word Automatic Transmission, as you know some people do not believe that Sport Sedan and Auto trannys should be used together.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "they are comparing a nasty turbo 4 to a 6"

    The BMW has a turbo 4.

    I doubt if the Cadillac's turbo 4 is nasty - consider the turbo 4 of the dearly departed Solstice/Sky. I think the engine management software just needs a few more lines of code.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,673
    And they are selling every single one with very little discount too...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    It's been a couple of years since I've driven one so things may be different now, but at the time, the Infiniti G37 was the perfect example of a car that was horrible with a stick but brilliant with an automatic.

    Reading these two magazine articles, that's the impression I took away about the Cadillac. The ATS will be a segment killer with a slushbox.

    Plus, it's a brand new car - and impressive already compared to the benchmark of the segment. Give GM a year to dial it in and it will absolutely brilliant - three pedals or two.
  • mvs1mvs1 Posts: 462
    Has GM already won?

    Being that there is finally a discussion occurring on these boards and car mags running comparos they struck gold.

    I've owned many a luxury sport sedan from Audi, Infiniti, Lexus (well not really), and now a 335. When the time comes to get a new car I typically evaluate the entire field. I'll no doubt at least drive the ATS....
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2012
    That's why they're building it. They're giving North America exactly what it wants. :mad:

    That's why I drive 20 year-old cars...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2012
    Oh yeah, I went to a DE day a couple of weeks ago and one of the guys in my run group had a 2007 335i. During our first session, I saw him leave the track after 4 laps. After the run, I asked what was wrong and he told me his car went into "limp mode."

    I know BMW corrected this in later model years, but I've never seen it in real life before. To think that this could ever happen to a BMW is just sad. Times have changed and the sports sedan is dead.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The BMW has a turbo 4.

    I figured BMW always used inline 6s so I didn't even ask about the engine. So what we need is a 335i to a 3.6 ATS comparison. Because that's what almost everyone's going to buy if they care about performance.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    While I think the original poster of the ats vs BMW - selectively posted the article because he is a BMW lover - it was a good post to open up conversation. These cars are very close - like I said before maybe 2 close. Caddy must realize they should of undercut the mighty 3 in pricing, maybe gm is trying to subsidize the volt vs this. For guys to say the caddy would of win if it had the auto, or if they compared the bigger engine cars, or if both cars were the same color - look these comparisons will come down the rode so hold on to your hat.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,541
    It's not domestic manufacturer's style. They always put out price unrealistic price and then cut it with rebates and dealer marketing support, so their customers feel like they're getting a great deal. The problem is with magazines taking that sticker at its face value.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,976
    Yet last week I drove a 2001 BMW M5 with 120,000 miles on the odometer that a friend just bought from the original owner. This car drives better, with fewer rattles, than any 2 year old Caddy sitting on your local dealer lot. The paint looks better than a brand new Caddy.

    That is true. But how will a 2013 BMW compare with a 2013 Cadillac in 10 years? Past performance is not always an indicator of future performance.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,904
    Just curious, did your friend tell you how much he paid for his well maintained example of an E39 M5?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Past performance is not always an indicator of future performance.

    That's what keeps me showing up at the golf course trying to break par. But I'm not necessarily prepared to plop my money down on a GM product, hoping that they suddenly find the short grass when they have spent most of the last 40 years knee deep in the rough.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Something in the $20k range - higher than blue book, but it was in exceptional condition and owner just had full service and four new tires.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,613
    edited October 2012
    I know BMW corrected this in later model years, but I've never seen it in real life before.

    Oh, its pretty much a given on the N54 cars. But he didn't have to leave the track. Just back out of it for a half lap or so to let it cool off a bit. Still, it sucks. I have a larger oil cooler in the garage now that I have to get around to installing this winter. Being an '07, his might not have any factory oil cooler (depending on build date and sport or nonsport, I believe), which is even worse. The n54 cars without the oil cooler are just doomed at the track.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

Sign In or Register to comment.