Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

habitat1 · October 2012

I think digging a little deeper into the anthropology files, it may have started when BMW decided to cater to the "mass" American market and conceded to their preference for automatic transmissions:

Your butt gets bigger when you're too lazy to shift. The seats get wider because your butt got bigger. The car got bigger because the seats got wider. The car got heavier because the car got bigger. The brakes got bigger because the car got heavier.....

Before I get rebuked - yes, I know that it would take about 1,000 shifts to burn enough calories to make up for the Snicker's bar or MacDonald French Fries. It's not the physical act of shifting that determines the width of one's butt. That's just the canary in the mine shaft of our mental attitudes. Not a sermon, just a thought.

graphicguy · October 2012

dino....interesting observations. Can't disagree, although I absolutely hated the "start/stop" feature of the loaner I had. That said, it can be permanently defeated, so no harm, no foul.

Like you, my biggest buggaboo are the seats. Unless you go with sport seats, at extra cost, the standard seats, even in my coupe, really aren't all that comfortable. The seat bottoms are flat and hard, with no thigh support.

The only other "quasi" issue I have with the F30s is the protrusion of the nav system......it looks like an afterthought.

I also agree that BMW did indeed do some cost cutting with the dials and knobs. You can tell the difference going from an E9X to an F30.

markcincinnati · October 2012

I think we're basically in violent agreement. And Audis are nose heavy and overall fairly heavy cars. Yet, what we've not discussed is the fact that all of these car companies -- even the ones that are "related" (like Audi, Porsche and VW, et al) -- make whatever helps them meet their revenue, volume and profit objectives. Some time ago, a BMW owner told me, as he looked down on my Audi, that BMW would never produce anything other than RWD cars.

I'd say we've pretty much incorporated X-drive across virtually all BMW's -- because they sell and because they make profit.

Someone told me that Porsche would never make a CUV (or SUV) and would never create a sedan and that Porsche's were "only" about performance -- then the 944 came out.

BTW there is a team of lawyers who look out for the use of coke (little c) -- they always want to see it as Coke. Likewise quattro is well, "quattro" not Quatro or Quattro -- the Audi legal team will, no doubt, be sending Edmunds a cease and desist demand if they allow us to post the brand incorrectly.

Virtually all I see here in Cincinnati are AWD Porsches -- and I suspect the two Porsche dealers are happy as a clam in its shell to sell as many of them as they can get their hands on.

For most mere mortals, living through even our "moderate" winters, AWD vehicles are more, dare I say, practical. The fact that some of the highest performing vehicles are offered in AWD trim is, for some, a bonus.

Drive it like you live. :surprise:

dino001 · October 2012

Don't know the new Nav, the loaner doesn't have it. My old nav is OK when it comes to guidance (although it can get confused at times and there are some things I'd improve on the screen guidance), but it sucks when it comes to points of interest. Huge gaps in coverage, even on basic items, from lack of car parts stores (that may be by design) and search categories are botched. Lack of some basics, like pharmacy (had to go with either name or general). I think my old Garmin is generally better in terms of POI search and in par when it comes to guidance. I'm sure new Nav is probably improved a little, because the reference line is not as high.

dino001 · October 2012

I just experienced today what it means when you buy a premium brand vehicle. Well, I was prepared, as I have done my research, but still can't shake that feeling of being treated like a milking cow. So I get to this first "free" service that BMW tells you that "all you pay is tires", everything, everything is freee. Yeah, right. I get my "advisor" (who is basically a sales person) simply print out a piece of paper with $600 "worth" of service they "recommend" and casually saying like nothing that's what they're going to do. It is:
- four wheel alignment (well, OK that may be a legitimate item for those concerned, but why isn't that covered than if all is supposed to so free, free, free): $200. WHAT???!!!! :mad: Market rate is between $50 (with coupon) and $80, I understand that's a premium place, but not at a tripple rate.
- engine induction system cleaning. Yeah, right at 15K miles it's soooo dirty, especially when using a brand premium gas. I have never done one and I owned some perfomance cars, like STI. No thanks. BTW, price is also $200, a little over double of market.
- power steering fluid flush. Really?? At 15K??? Are your serious??? Oh, also $200.

Wow. So this is how "free, free, super free" service looks like - nice isn't it? Absolutely ridiculous, both in terms of "recommendations" and prices. I wonder how many poor saps would they scare into doing this.

I told them to jump into the lake (in much nicer words, of course), and the "advisor" didn't even flinch, except he told me all that story about lost goodwill at beyond warranty (yes, I do plan to keep my car for longer, at least today). But when you count all those "recommended" services at those highly inflated prices, it's like paying for that good will, just up front. I'll do when it comes, got enough money for that. A coworker summarized it well - she said it's basically bying a friend.

I already dread my next visit and "advice" at 30K. I hate those pitches. The sad part is that in the noise there can be something actually worth doing, but when you get hit for money just for the sake of it, I lose all trust to my "advisor" and have to work on my own what actually is worth doing and at what price.

nyccarguy · October 2012

Thanks for the detailed write up on the new F30 328i. The more I read about the steering & driving dynamics from enthusiasts like you, the more it looks like my next car isn't going to be a new BMW.

I agree with you that the way an engine sounds & the smoothness of how it delivers power are important to me as well. It doesn't get any better than our N52 Inline 6.

How many miles are on your wagon? Do you need anything fixed (under warranty) or do they just need to do the service? I just hit 11,000 miles this AM & my OBC says I still have 4900 miles to go before I need my 1st service.

I've got 3 minor issues that I'm holding out until the 1st service to bring it in for.

(1) the panel gaps between the hood & the front fender (1/4 panel) are uneven. The driver's side is nice and tight, while the passenger side is noticeably wider to the naked eye.

(2) when I first drive the car in the AM, while sitting at a long traffic light, the engine idle jumps up & down between 500 & 700 RPM.

(3) When it is cold out (in the 40s & under), my trunk does not latch closed. I have to stick a key in the latch so it catches when I close it.

qbrozen · October 2012

Do you have another dealer you can choose?

Mine never suggested anything like that.

nyccarguy · October 2012

That's awful! And he basically "threatened" you too about post warranty work. Nice dealership.

dino001 · October 2012

I put out (and got approved) a claim on a small (1/4" in diameter) paint flakeoff at door handle lining (where the key housing used to be). It looked like a paint system defect (exposed primer, no trace of impact), not damage to me and they agreed. The car stays overnight at the shop, as they have to paint the new piece in my color.

They also agreed to replace a torn door sill - it was me, hitting it hard every time I got out of the car, the sill split it two at point of those impacts, about 3 inch long split. I must admit, it was because the way I like to sit (lowest possible, as far as possible), combined with my weight and general clumsiness when getting out. Since I noticed the damage, I'm making more concerted effort to get out in a way avoiding this damage, but I still catch myself hitting the area once in a while. So I'm thankful for that - not expecing to get such consideration if keep banging this sill on next service, so I'll try to excercise more caution when getting out of the car.

I also lost an undercarriage bumper for the lifts (it was discovered in a tire shop some time ago) - $69 to put it back. I'm OK with that.

Other than that, the car is perfect. They'll replace the wipers (free). The mileage: 14,000. 12 months and three days since delivery in Munich.

dino001 · October 2012

From what I see, it's kind of "standard" here, but I may be wrong about that. Another dealer in Lakeland has their service prices posted - Still too high, for my taste, but a little but lower. But it's out of the way for me, much less convenient. And the whole loaner thing, I would have to ask what their position is on that if I wanted to switch.

Like I said, otherwise, it's a pleasant experience

:sick:

habitat1 · October 2012

What's the name of your dealership, if I might ask?

I am planning on stopping into mine later this week on our X5d to order the trailer hitch and spare tire kit (blew it, should have checked that box). We only have 1,400 miles on the vehicle, but I will be asking to speak to the service manager just to make sure we don't get hit with any of the BS you just went through.

andys120 · October 2012

I lose all trust to my "advisor" and have to work on my own what actually is worth doing and at what price.

Mike Miller at Roundel (the BMW Car Club magazine) puts out a good comprehensive schedule of what maintenance is needed on various BMWs, it's free to BMWCCA members. You can also get similar ones at "Bavarian Otto's" blog on the Bavauto.com website.

I have found that if you stick to these schedules you will get many trouble free miles from your car. They are a little more comprehensive than the maintenance BMWNA gives you but not as extensive as the extras your dealer is pushing at you. There's no way you need a P/S flush at 15K, you can go 100K without problems and that
induction system cleaning is pure BS.

If I were you I'd find another dealer for warranty work and a good Indie shop for everything else.

dino001 · October 2012

The name is Reeves. The sad thing about the whole thing is, their sales staff and creating a really good environment, trully friendly and no-nonsense, even if very aggressive on pricing, makes you feel comfortable.

I'm generally not opposed to somebody setting whatever their price can be - it's free market and it is their choice to do so, as it is mine to use them or not (basically market sets those limits). I'm also cognizant that my car is one of cheapest they have out there, so the perspective is different - somebody with $100K 7-series may not care if alignment is $100 or $200, but they may care more about "concierge" type of service that you get in such a place. Those "free" perks can be quite costly. I don't need them, I'd rather keep my money, but again - they cater to people who do care and such a treatment costs money. Fine with me.

I can't be angry at Ritz for their hotel room prices being out of what I'm willing to pay, so I'm not angry at Reeves for $200 alignment price. It's too high IMHO, so thanks, but no thanks. It's the other two "recommendations" that really bother me, because they are trully bogus in my opinion.

I don't think you need to worry about anything at 1400 miles. This is not the case of somebody putting the car on the lift and then telling you your (fill the blank) is broken and has to be fix for X. This was planned maintenance visit used as an opportunity for an upsell, because they think that whatever BMW pays them is not enough. They invented a bogus need for some preventative stuff that don't really need, but nobody can disprove such need. I'm already used to that - every time you have an AC service as maintenance, the guy without a fault will "recommend" duct cleaning, coil cleaning and other equally "preventative" stuff, not to mention a UV lamp to kill bacteria with a bargain price of over two grand, or electrostatic filter for another two.

All I need is to say no and they go away.

dino001 · October 2012

Indie shop is in my plans. Warranty work so far seems to be taken care of OK, but I'm always open for options.

cdnpinhead · October 2012

I wonder how many poor saps would they scare into doing this.

The vast majority.

Enthusiasts, who have a clue how cars work and what's actually required, are no longer the target market for BMW (or any of the others, for that matter).

cdnpinhead · October 2012

The more I read about the steering & driving dynamics from enthusiasts like you, the more it looks like my next car isn't going to be a new BMW.

Enthusiasts, who have a clue how cars work and what's actually required, are no longer the target market for BMW (or any of the others, for that matter).

Isn't it interesting how the same answer works more than once?

habitat1 · October 2012

So I went into Tesla today for my test drive of the Model S and to try to decide if I should convert my $5,000 deposit into a binding configuration. They can deliver the car in 90 days from whenever I hit the "confirmed" button.

My quick take is that Tesla has a great vehicle for greenies, geeks and semi-enthusiasts that can will get excited by the 240 volt plug, 17" touchscreen, or holding the steering wheel in both hands on a vigorous test drive....

....but, once you come to a stop and look around the interior of the car, you realize pretty quickly that you aren't sitting in a Panamera, CLS, A7, 5-series. I don't want my first impression to be too harsh, and intend to go back with my wife when she can do a test drive in the next week or two. But I think Tesla might have more of a packaging problem with the interior than their sexy photographs and YouTube videos suggest. The seats were Toyota Camry quality and the empty area below the dash and between the driver and passenger seat (where the gear shift and center console would normally be) looked awful and detracted from the sense that you were sitting in a high tech, high quality cockpit. Neither the car I test drove nor the other one in the showroom had the panorama sunroof. Too bad, because the headliner looked like it was poorly fitted and finished. Which was also the case with the leather on the showroom model's seats. Overall, other than the 17" screen and dash, I was underwhelmed by the interior design, fit and finish.

The test drive itself was much better. Car has good acceleration from a standstill, even the "base" model I drove. It was even more impressive going from 40 to 70 on the highway. I am sure the performance model is a hoot to drive. Handling felt very good but I didn't get a chance to really test it fully to be able to call it great.

I need to go back again and stew on this before hitting that configure button.

nyccarguy · October 2012

Yes it is. As of today, the 2 ELLPS manufacturers who do not equip their vehicles with electric power steering?

Dino - funny you commented on our cars' cupholders. I have no problem with the cupholders in the E90. Holds my cup with no problems. When I don't make, there's always room for a DD medium or large w/ no issues.

cdnpinhead - I plan on doing some DIY oil changes inbetween the freebies BMW gives me just in case I decide I want to buy my car out at lease end. I know it's most likely pointless & a waste of money, but I want to do it to get some experience.

dino001 · October 2012

My main problem with their cupholder was my favorite thermal mug didn't fit (has too wide bottom

, but yes, large DD cup fits just fine. Panera's mug seems to kick and spill liquid violently when I pull out of their lot, so I learned to hold it in my hand for that. But what's more important, try open both holders and watch your passenger to kick them with their knee, possibly break them with one hit. They're just too close to those knees to comfort, IMHO. Looking how they're build (intricate structure of plastic pieces and springs), I can only imagine how much a replacement would cost, if broken.

So, yes I found one thing in F30 I really like more than in my E91 - it is CUPHOLDER. :sick:)

graphicguy · October 2012

dino.....Really sorry to hear about your dealership's service. That really irritates me to no end. I know of one BMW dealership that had somewhat dicey practices. It's probably the more popular of the two BMW dealerships in the area.

They would load up a case of techron in my trunk (with an inflated charge tacked onto my oil change bill for the privilege). They said it was "recommended" to put in a bottle of techron in the gas tank with every fili up. It is? Recommended by whom?

My current BMW dealer (the one who's least preferred in the area) have been at the pinnacle of customer service for me. My BMW service has been free, as they state.

Although, I can see my RFTs are going to need replacing by next Spring, maybe sooner. I do think the next set of shoes are going to be conventional (non-RFTs). While I tend to be more cautious with tires, I'm going to swap these out at 20K miles. I could probably get 25K-30K miles out of them, though.

I think a lot of it depends on the service manager regarding their practices. What's really a shame, many people think they absolutely need to have their power steering flushed, or that they have to have injectors cleaned every 10K miles.

Personally, I've never had a clogged injector, nor have I ever had so much "gunk" in my power steering fluid reservoir that I needed it to be flushed. Today's fuels are required by law to contain detergents that keeps injectors clean.

habitat....cool write up on the Tesla. I hope they thrive. I think what they're trying to do is viable. And, I think they're one of many "alternative fuel" car companies who, while not toppling GM, will carve a nice niche for itself. I can see Tesla being a company who becomes more of a licensing firm (licensing their intellectual property to other car companies) instead of a car manufacturer.

dino001 · October 2012

There is always post-service survey. Many of them are useless, with questions formulated in such a way that they make it clear they DON'T want to know what you really think. Will see what BMW sends me. If there is any open question that allows me write an opinion, I'll let them know what I think about those "recommendations". They probably won't care, anyway, but I like to give people a chance to make things better, if they are at all interested.

markcincinnati · October 2012

We've had three BMW's and our dealer, The BMW Store, never suggested we spend anything with the dealership for the first 50K miles. We were even given new rotors at over 45K miles -- all with a smile.

We would go in on Saturday's for the free hand car wash -- and would ask for the 6 point inspection (also free) which basically got us fluids topped off, air in the tires and a measurement of the remaining brake life and tire life. If we even made a peep about the wipers, well, new wiper blades, no fee, no questions asked.

Although I had similar experiences at Audi, when I asked, they didn't seem quite as anxious to volunteer the free services or wiper blades, etc. But if you asked, they gave without any indication that they were anything less than happy to do so.

One last thing, our BMW dealer requires every employee in the service department to wear WHITE lab coats -- and you would think you were driving into a surgical theater when you went to the service dept.

This level of service and professionalism is impressive. Neither the Cadillac nor the Lexus dealers even come close. Audi also bested the Cadillac and Lexus dealers, but not the BMW store.

Of course our BMW store is owned by the former service manager -- which probably means his motto, sales through service is more than a phrase.

dino001 · October 2012

They took care of all the damaged parts, including the undercarriage bumper for the lift. I paid nothing at the end. How can I slam them now

?

dino001 · October 2012

At the end - the experience was shockingly disapointing. There was so much anticipation and the mountain gave birth to a mouse, as we say it in my old country.

The steering did not get any better over time. I must admit, the car moved in prescribed directions, so it's not like there was no response. But there was no feedback - basically no feeling. Am I at the limit, can I go faster? Nothing.

The 2.0l turbo engine is fast and torquey, transmission is brisk and great. If there is any automatic I can have, that's the one. These are admittedly strongest points of the new F30, especially with gas mileage almost 20% higher than my car in same conditions - impressive. But... I take my E91 3.0l NA with manual back and no thanks to a new car any time soon. Hard to explain. I may change my mind over time, but not today.

Interior dials are really cheaper in feel and over time felt cheaper and cheaper. To describe the difference is between feeling a soft bump (E91) and hard ratchet (F30). The plastic on those also feels cheaper. I also just noticed that the sunroof liner was not motorized, as opposed to my wagon, but to be fair, I don't remember is E90 sedan had sunroof liner motorized or not. The wagon has a long panoramic sunroof, so the liner has to be moved with its own motor, as it is too far for the driver to reach when he wants to close it from the back. The non-Nav screen has 4:3 aspect ratio, the long panoramic ratio on my E91 Nav is so much better. From pictures it looks their optional nav screen is still panoramic, so you get a different screen than standard version.

The screen had a gremlin - today in the morning I got "No signal" message and my ipod started playing at fast forward mode (radio played just fine) - really weird.

I am absolutely NOT buying a new one and if, God forbid, I needed a new car, the shopping of other brands would definitely be on. Most likely into lower priced territory. There is no point of spending this much money if the product doesn't really deliver.

nyccarguy · October 2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only 2 manufacturers that now offer good old rack & pinion in this ELLPS class steering are Infiniti & Mercedes-Benz.

Mercedes-Benz seems to be pretty serious about improving the "Sport" in their Sport Sedan. The 2013 C-Class has a new DI 3.5L V6 (248 hp/251 lb-ft torque) in their C300 4Matic.

They now have AGILITY CONTROL suspension that: "automatically adjusts the individual shock absorbers based on the road surface and the driver's current driving style. Valving inside each shock absorber automatically firms up during stronger body motions for sharper handling feedback and stability, and reduces the damping rates during gentler motions for a smoother, more composed ride."

The 4Matic AWD system retains a 45:55 front/rear torque split. It is a RWD based AWD chassis.

MB says 0 - 60 mph in 6.0 seconds w/ 7 speed automatic. The C-Class is handsomely styled with nice interior materials. This generation C is definitely not just a "cheap Mercedes."

graphicguy · October 2012

Mark...I've never had an issue with either The BMW Store or Jake Sweeney BMW. But, it was The BMW Store who loaded a case of Techron in the trunk, stating it was a good idea to add a bottle every fill-up. An overzealous tech writer? Probably.

Jake has always bent over backwards for me....in both sales and service.

I consider us lucky to have two good dealers in the city.

At one time or another, I've interfaced with probably every luxury dealer in the city, for one reason or another.

The only one who was really quite bad was Thompson McConnell Cadillac. And, that was in regards to my late Mother's car (in which they made it a habit of fleecing her, and trying to fleece me).

habitat1 · October 2012

I would agree with you that Mercedes is improving the "sport" factor, but that's somewhat of a relative improvement. Even with their improvements, and in spite of BMW's steering and Audi's weight, I would still put Mercedes solidly in third place ranking those brands on overall enthusiastic driving dynamics. I am basing this on three categories of comparison, most of which I've driven over the past 12 months:

C350 vs. A4/S4 vs. 335i
E350/550 vs. A6/S6 vs. 535i/550i
SLK vs. TTS vs. Z4 (although none of these are within a mile of a Boxster S)

That probably suits Mercedes OK. I don't think they are trying to compete with BMW and Audi for the serious driving enthusiast in these segments, as evidenced by no manual transmissions, a chassis emphasis on comfort rather than handling and slush box automatics vs. DSG's. But, to their credit, they are closing the gap a bit and making the choice of Mercedes for luxury not as much of a tradeoff. Unfortunately BMW appears to be inadvertently helping them to close this gap from the other (wrong) direction.

graphicguy · October 2012

nyc.....the GF was all hot and bothered by the Benz C350 4Matic coupe when she was looking, before deciding on the S4. We test drove a totally loaded one.....black with tan interior (just like my 335i).

It felt like a slug. Now, this was a 2012. I think the tech, build quality and materials were anything that wasn't met or exceeded by the BMW or the Audi. Maybe the 2013 is significantly upgraded. But, for $55K (which is the MB's sticker price), I felt it was waaaayyyyy overpriced.

dino001 · October 2012

A friend of mine has a three years old C300 with manual transmission (previous generation). It actually feels sportier than I had expected - very much so. I remember I also drove both automatic E90 328 and same C300 generation back-to-back last year. The impressions were "wow, that Benz is really sporty". To be fair, I think it was "sports" C300 and non-sport package 328, so a bit unfair to the bimmer. But my though was Benz had nothing to be ashamed of - at all. Can't tell about the new C250 - suspect it does not hold the candle to the F30 328 in terms of power, but after this undewhelming steering experience with F30 I don't know anything anymore.

flightnurse · October 2012

Dino sorry to hear about the dealership, I never had that problem, I would drop the car off and then received keys for the loaner (all in about 20 minutes.) Return loaner, receive my keys and off I went (all in about 20 minutes.) Not once was I ever "up sold" on anything, or "recommended" anything (since it is covered by the free maintenance if it needed to be done.) I would write the GM of the dealer as well as BMW about this experience, this dealer isn't living up to the true experience.

In regards to your driving experience of the F30, like you, I like the drive-train the quick shifts of the 8 spd transmission keep the turbo 4 in the powerband all the time, the car "feels" much quicker over the E91. Also drive then E91 and F30 back to back you can "feel" the difference in the steering right away, the E90 is weighted and has a direct feel to it, the F30 does not, very "easy" and you are right very Buick like. BTW, the sport seats in any 3 series are the better seats for comfort , well next to the comfort seat of the 5, 6, 7 series and x5 and x6 comfort seats.

dino001 · October 2012

F10 is a 5-series. E90 and F30 are 3-series. But I get your point - probably there is not much of a difference between current 328 and 528 steering, anyway.

flightnurse · October 2012

Sorry about that I edit my postings, this is what happens when you are multi tasking (not really paying much attention.)

dino001 · October 2012

The questions had write-in sections, so I filled it with some spicy comments regarding these service recommendations. Had to really hold myself from saying it too harshly. I was still trying to tell them warranty work was great, but those recommendations were about revenue generation, not real concern. Not sure, if I want anybody call me back or not. Generally don't like these kinds of confrontations.

flightnurse · October 2012

Dino, first off congrats on writing and submitting the survey, management can not make an informed decision without feedback from it's customers. It someone calls you back from the dealership, embrace it, it does not have to be confrontation at all, but a time to educate managements on your experience.

My partner had an issue on his first service from the Nissan dealership. He responded to the survey, the GM of the dealership called Rick personally and they both spoke, at the end, the GM was grateful of Ricks honesty, the GM upgraded Rick to the Platinum elite level in their (the dealerships) service reward. This gave Rick two free services a year (basic) and 20% off all other services.

Good luck.

markcincinnati · October 2012

Beginning on page 62 of the Dec '12 issue of ROAD & TRACK and continuing through page 65, Honda has spent however much it takes to buy a 4-page, full color advertising spread dedicated to the "theme" and title "The Name of The Game." There is a boat load of text describing in the best copy writing money can buy, probably, the technologically advanced 2013 Honda Accord. From LED headlights to a feature-laden interior to the description of how the '13 Accord is both smaller on the outside and bigger on the inside.

Of course the patient reader is told about the achievement of the "neat trick" of being more maneuverable, more powerful and more economical. The damn thing is safer, too -- it says so right in the ad copy.

The car is full of such amenities as Pandora radio, Bluetooth this and that, a rearview AND sideview cameras , sat-nav, a voice activated bidet, collision warning, lane departure warning, LaneWatch, a George Foreman fryer with GreaseBlock technology, and even an available 6-speed MANUAL shifter, and to motivate the thing, you can get a 278 horsepower V6 that actually reverses the greenhouse effect of SMOG (on a planetary basis) and (apparently) push-button start and hands-free ingress if you are so inclined.

Don't forget adaptive cruise control -- Honda didn't overlook this tech either.

I'm sure I've missed stuff, I mean, c'mon the ad is four pages in length and mostly uses a small font as if this is an article about the thing, not an ad.

OK, so I read this and I see the picture of the interior which approaches handsome, not Audi handsome but a far cry from any Honda I've ever been turned-off by (including my '12 Acura TL, which, while quite functional is hardly grin inducing when you get behind the wheel.)

Now, then, as to the title of my post -- I'm used to the Audi A8 getting the bells and whistles long before the A4 and usually before the A6 and way way way before Audi's "cousins" the VW clan. I'm at least aware that Cadillacs [used to] get features, functions and other high-end content (aka, "stuff you'd like to have in your Chevy or Pontiac or Buick, even) before the lesser aspirational models. I assume that the new ATS, CTS and XTS all have content that is, for the time being, exclusive to Caddy's -- wouldn't want a lowly Buick LaCrosse to have blind spot monitoring or adaptive cruise control or whatever gimcrack or gewgaw du jour marks a Premium Car's territory (these days).

The top o' the line from any car maker or "family" of cars usually gets the new tech, new toys, new safety kit or partridge in a pear tree BEFORE those poor cousins downstream, er, down-market.

So, this 2013 Accord gets content, tech, etc, etc, that certainly seems like prime beef from as recent as 2011 in many of the world's high buck, high zoot, high prestige makes. Hell, this Accord seems awfully close to being premium-car state-of-the-art insofar as content and even safety engineering (high strength steel, and "ACE II" a body structure engineered to evenly distribute full-frontal crash energy [or nudity] more effectively for instance). Now the engine choices are hardly revolutionary, but they do (claim) to now include direct injection powerplants, CVT transmissions with paddle-shifters (yawn) and "double-downshifting" conventional 6-speed autos with rev-matching.

My point is, shouldn't all this content, kit, performance and safety rigging be introduced FIRST in the Acura line? Then after two-years, one at-least, and only then be trickled DOWN to the Honda's?

What a world, what a world -- The Wicked Witch from the Wizard of OZ.

Drive it like you live.

DOH!

Homer.

rayainsw · October 2012

I drove one a month or so ago.
V6 automatic.
Dynamically satisfying, to me.
- Ray
Currently a BMW 3 driver....

stickguy · October 2012

They needed to make an impact with the Accord more than they needed to give Acura a head start. But I assume a lot of this will arrive there shortly (and some already is on the new RDX, at least with tech),

and for this piece: a 278 horsepower V6 that actually reverses the greenhouse effect of SMOG (on a planetary basis), not sure if you were being funny (as with the grill, a feature I actually liked!), but Volvo actually did this. They had a coating on the radiator that absorbed CO2 (or something bad) and converted it to water vapor or some such good thing. Not quite sure it was a net positive, but just might have been.

markcincinnati · October 2012

You mean you didn't find the bidet amusing?!? I must be slipping. :sick:

victor23 · October 2012

Volvo actually did this. They had a coating on the radiator that absorbed CO2 (or something bad) and converted it to water vapor or some such good thing

Just pandering to their traditional customer base. Like "organic" foods. Just wait until water vapor is bad too. Oh, wait, it is the most potent greenhouse driver...

victor23 · October 2012

This is because Hyndai turned the business model upside down. The basis of the car business always was: add a gimmic, bundle with a load of unneeded cr... um... features, charge over the nose. Hyndai, in order to enter the market (although being far from a technical innovator), showed everybody that you can get a nonexpensive car with all most recent bells and whistles, even in pretty basic trims. Thanks for that! Hopefully, there is no way back. Although VW, for example, still requires you to upgrade to V6 AWD top-of-the-line at $42k just to get heated mirrors (which is a must in our climate).

habitat1 · October 2012

George Foreman fryer with GreaseBlock technology

The 2013 Accord may have all of those extra goodies, but I'm still betting that after I got behind the wheel, I'd still claim my 2002 Honda S2000 was the best car Honda ever built under the Honda label. Manual seats, no tilt, telescoping steering wheel, a standard two speaker stereo with about 12 watts. But when you pushed the start button and started driving it, none of that other stuff mattered.

Don't fall into the trap that thinking do-dads are what makes a car great. 278 horsepower to the front wheels and a weight balance that is still at least 60%+ nose heavy isn't going to get me all worked up over the new Accord, even if that standard George Foreman fryer has a self cleaning function.

In fairness, the new Accord may be the best FWD mid size, mid-priced family sedan on the market. And congratulations to Honda for bringing upscale technology and safety to the mass market. But what I think needs to trickle up to Acura is a new attitude. I said it 5 years ago, and it's more true today. Acura could use Honda engineering technology to build a couple of RWD 3 and 5 series competitors with class leading driving dynamics.

Sorry, I'm just grumpy because I'm about to dish out $75k for a new Boxster S or pre-owned 911 partly because Acura is too friggin boring to put out a $50k S3000 a decade after Honda showed they could kick [non-permissible content removed] with a $32k S2000. I've been hoping for some trickle up for a long time. Guess it's time to face the fact that it's probably not going to happen for my little niche.

sweendogy · October 2012

Grumpy - you are obviously not Hondas target audience with the Fwd accord. I mean 75k for a boxer, or used 911, wow, last month you talked about the Tesla you had on order- maybe you should just wait for the NSX - it's an Acura.

flightnurse · October 2012

I'd still claim my 2002 Honda S2000 was the best car Honda ever built under the Honda label.

Really, I have to vote the NSX as the best Honda car ever built under the Honda label...

I'm just grumpy because I'm about to dish out $75k for a new Boxster S or pre-owned 911 partly because

What happened to the Tesla? Also how does someone cross shop a Boxster S, 911 and Tesla?

kyfdx · November 2012

Also how does someone cross shop a Boxster S, 911 and Tesla?

Because they can...

billyperksii · November 2012

Mark- Lines are around the corner at my local Honda Dealer, TL owners are trading in their TL AWD TECH/BASE for the 2013 Honda Accord V6/I4-you swayed US over with your write up- YEAH RIGHT.

habitat1 · November 2012

Really, I have to vote the NSX as the best Honda car ever built under the Honda label..

I suspect your vote is being cast from a distance that is pretty far away from the driver's seat of that car. I considered a pristine pre-owned 1996 NSX at the time I bought my new 2002 S2000 The $32k 240 horsepower S2000 equalled or exceeded the performance of the 270 hp NSX. Comparable acceleration, handling edge to the lighter, tighter S2000. The NSX had more prestige, but not more sports car guts or build quality. Not to mention that the NSX with 30k miles was $49k used and had been $85k+ new. Granted, the second generation NSX upped the performance slightly with the 290hp 3.2 liter engine, but the price of the NSX was never a remotely good sports car bang for the buck. On the other hand, the S2000 kicked the butt of everything within 50% of its price: base Boxster, Z3/4, SLK, 370Z. etc. Perhaps not in high torque, raw muscle car acceleration, or luxury do-dads, but in extraordinary engineering and visceral sports car performance and handling. I'll repeat that I think it was the best car to ever wear a Honda/Acura label.

What happened to the Tesla? Also how does someone cross shop a Boxster S, 911 and Tesla?

I like the "because I can" response, but then again, why not?? Same general price and with the Model S Performance Edition, it scoots 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds. Plus, I like the green concept, even if I don't think human farting was responsible for Manhatten being under a mile of ice 16,000 years ago. But alas, after a test drive two weeks ago, I've just about crossed the Tesla off my list. The interior layout and material quality was too much like a high tech golf cart then a high tech luxury performance sedan. I'm going to get back over for another drive with my wife before I decide whether or not to ask for our deposit back, but as of right now, I told the electrician to hold off extending the 220 volt service in my garage (the damn plug is in the rear of the car).

markcincinnati · November 2012

I was not and am not trying to sway anyone to do or buy anything, from Honda, Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Volvo or VW.

On the other hand, I AM (but don't tell anyone) shilling for George Foreman's appliances.

:surprise:

habitat1 · November 2012

I'm probably not Honda's target market for a FWD Accord now, but it wasn't that long ago that I might have been. After all, I still drive a 2004 FWD TL 6-speed as my everyday car. My "trickle up" comments were more to question why Acura hasn't set itself more apart from Honda. Lexus has V8's and RWD, Infiniti is pretty far removed from the Nissan line-up. But Acura, much as I like the parent company, hasn't really done much that isn't more than a moderate uptick from Honda - other than putting SH-AWD in this and that.

As for the new NSX, as my baseball manager/coach tells me, I'm not getting any younger. I'm having a tough time waiting for the new Cayman to be unveiled at the LA auto show in 4 weeks. By the time Seinfeld and all of the other celebrities get the first batch of NSX's, I may be ready for one of those motorized chairs they advertise on late night TV. Besides, haven't seen the details, but I have this stinking feeling that Acura is only going to offer some kind of computer aided automatic transmission on the NSX. That - and about $300,000 - are what keeps me from considering the new Ferraris. As long as I'm not in a wheelchair, I want to use my left foot to depress a real clutch pedal. Kind of hard to do that on a Tesla, given that it's only one gear. But everything else, I'll shift my own thank you.

flightnurse · November 2012

The S2000 and NSX are not in the same league. While the S2000 handles well for the price of admission, not once in all of the years did I read any auto enthusiast magazine compare the S2000 and NSX together. As you pointed out the S2000 was fighting with the likes of Z3/Z4, Boxster, Z350/370 crowd. While the NSX was battling with Ferrari, Lambo's and such. Since the NSX was Honda's flagship sports car, I'm not too sure that the S2000 could be Honda's best built car. Now for you maybe, but that statement would be hard pressed to hold itself in a larger automotive community.

flightnurse · November 2012

I'm not getting any younger. I'm having a tough time waiting for the new Cayman to be unveiled at the LA auto show in 4 weeks.

If my travel plans stay how they are, I should be in LA for the auto show and plan on being there on Dec 1st.

The next generation NSX doesn't do anything for me, I like the last generation, simple and straight forward...

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