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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I like the "because I can" response, but then again, why not?? Same general price and with the Model S Performance Edition, it scoots 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds. Plus, I like the green concept, even if I don't think human farting was responsible for Manhatten being under a mile of ice 16,000 years ago. But alas, after a test drive two weeks ago, I've just about crossed the Tesla off my list.

    The problem is that the car is a half-baked attempt at an electric vehicle. They took a ready-made car, the Lotus Elise (which is a horrendously expensive platform to use) and then added a thousand pounds of weight to it in batteries.

    The Leaf, on the other hand, is a purpose-built EV and while it needs refinement and work, is actually pretty good for a first serious attempt at a EV by a major auto maker. Yes, I know other cars existed in the past, but this one you can actually *buy* and not lease, and it's not designed with government regulations and making some lawyers happy. It's designed to actually be a proper vehicle in the marketplace.

    They did make the S2000 until 2009, so you might actually get a very lightly used S2000.

    As for new, the Scion FR-S coupe is actually quite compelling. It's inexpensive, has a good engine and drivetrain layout, and just begs for a supercharger to be added. (my local dealer had brochures for local TRD suppliers/shops in the showroom and was saying that it would be 6 months, tops, before they were able to do it in-house).

    Independent shops are reporting yields in the 280-320HP range, which would turn it into a European car crusher, much like the NSX was.

    Yes, it's not Honda. But it's not a bad second choice if you need fas, fun, and new. (though I'd still take a S2000 in a heartbeat)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    It sounds like the factory will probably take care of the turbo for you within a year or so.

    one of this months car magazines had a piece on the turbo version of that engine, and certainly speculated that this car would get it (along with the WRX, etc.).

    I think it already has a nice balance of power, cost, complexity (or lack of!) as it is, and is more than fast enough. But, I am sure that they will make a boatload of money selling a turbo model for what, another 3K or so?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    not once in all of the years did I read any auto enthusiast magazine compare the S2000 and NSX together

    But I did that comparison. With my own butt in the drivers seat and had my own checkbook out.. 1996 NSX 30k miles vs. new 2002 S2000. They were a hell of a lot closer than you might be fooled into thinking from simply reading Road and Track and not doing the comparison yourself.

    Both the NSX and S2000 were hand built, side by side at the same Japanese factory. Both had fit and finish were FAR superior to anything made by Honda or Acura in the US. Both were engineered by the same team of Honda's Formula One racing team engineers. The NSX produced 90 hp/liter without turbos. Great for it's time in 1990. They improved it to 91 hp / liter a little later. The S2000 produced 120 hp / liter in 2000. You need a $140k 911 GT3 RS to approach that output today, 12 years later. The BMW M3, 104 hp /liter. Halfway between the NSX and S2000.

    The bottom line is that the 1996 NSX I almost bought had a price tag of $85,000 new, $15,000 more than the 1996 911 C2. But by 2002, even a new NSX was no where near the same performance league as a Ferrari 360 or (cheaper) 911S. Yet, at under $35k, for the entire 10 year run of the S2000, nothing within $10-20k of its price could match its engineering, build quality or overall performance. I'm not saying that the NSX wasn't a very good car during its early years. But way before the end of its run, it had become a underpowered, overpriced, stale car. And sold a few dozen the last couple of years before Acura finally and mercifully pulled the plug. The S2000 never suffered that level of competitive deterioration or indignation. It came in a winner, went out a winner vis a vis its competition.

    Some people - perhaps you - don' want to give the S2000 credit because it didn't cost $50k+ or carry the same exclusiveness/prestige. I look at it differently. Acura had a marginally competitive car in the $85k price range. It's biggest advantage when it was introduced was that it didn't break. Porsche fixed their reliability issues. Acura sat on its hands relative to keeping the NSX performance competitive. Honda had a sub $35k car that was the class leader, by a big margin, for a decade straight. That gets my vote. You can place yours on the NSX.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    was 2002 the first year? My BIL got one when they first came out (He had the first one in central NY, and I imagine one of the earliest ones int eh country) and he still has it. Not sure of the miles, but I doubt he broke 35K on it. Babied toy, spends winters in the garage, probably has not seen rain in years. I wish my life was that good!

    my other BIL and I are both waiting for him to get stupid and sell it so we can fight over it (and I know now he can't afford it!). He sometimes gets antsy to buy a Porsche (older Turbo 9xx of some vintage) or a cobra kit car. But so far, he has not pulled the trigger, and if he does, the S2000 has to go.

    I drove it when new. Fun car.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Not to dis your reminiscing of the days-gone-by vis-a-vis the S2000, because I actually considered one until the kids started coming, but didn't the Mazda RX8 win most/all comparisons?

    RX8 was Japanese built as well. I didn't delve into the finer details regarding their build quality.

    The RX8 had other problems regarding ownership (muscle car mileage with econo-car torque)

    I just didn't see the S2000 as "that" fantastic; maybe I should have tracked one for the day :shades:
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    Stickguy - S2000 came out in late 1999 as a MY 2000. The years to own were 2002 and 2003, IMO. For 2002 they added glass (vs. plastic) rear window, stronger clutch / transmission, and a few other upgrades. But in 2004 they replaced the 9,000 RPM 2.0 liter engine with a 8,000 rpm redline 2.2 liter engine. Same horsepower, slightly more low end torque, but it lost a little of the high rpm edge that made it a fan favorite. Schumacher once commented that it's the closest thing under $100,000 to a Ferrari in spirit.

    Ivan - The RX8 never did anything for me. A couple of rungs down the ladder in performance, funky 4 door with mini back seat. It certainly didn't have any success on the track like the S2000 enjoyed. About the only thing it had going for it was the novelty of a high RPM rotary engine. But given the lower performance and horrific gas mileage, it didn't get beyond the novelty stage.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    2004 tL 6 speed - so in car years you do drive a 2007 accord 6pd - now I understand- so maybe you are an accord target. . Most of us here also understand that Acura has not done its part to own 2 spots on the car list to the right(sorry billy), some of us have voiced this many times over- but hosts seem to be clinging to the idea that the tL and tsx should still be listed -is the ilx next? in actuality caddy a domestic car maker has better offerings.

    Love the talk of left foot action,just be careful lots of dsg and cvt lovers here- they will rant all day long about how much Better they are- texting also better with this option. The $75k talk, the tesla talk-great stuff but prob wrong venue- until the new 2015 3 comes out then that price could be a true comparison. Hearing leather will be standard.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    2004 tL 6 speed - so in car years you do drive a 2007 accord 6pd.

    Not quite. The 2004 TL 6-speed also came with Brembo brakes, a noticeably firmer sport suspension and summer performance tires compared to the automatic (since switched to high performance all season). So even though the Accord and some other FWD cars now have comparable horsepower, I would still put my 2004 TL as one of the best handling and braking FWD mid size sedans I've driven. Unfortunately, with the latest generation, the FWD TL has morphed into more of an Accord Plus, and the AWD one is nearly a quarter ton heavier and does not have a separate sport suspension set up even on the 6-speed manual version.

    I do agree a bit with your underlying point, though. Acura has not really acted like they want to be a distinct luxury/sport division from the mothership Honda. Certainly not the way Lexus has gone well above Toyota in product design and pricing with the LS and GS models. Hell, even Hyundai has a V8 RWD sedan that is priced higher then the droopy flagship RL, and they DIDN'T need a luxury division label to give them the balls to try. Infiniti has its own set of problems, but at least when they started with the Q45, they had the ambition of going above Nissan in a relatively big way.

    The good news for Acura is that I think Honda is a stronger starting point then Toyota and way above Nissan. But I'd like to see them show more commitment to designing and building cars that seriously compete with Audi's A6 and above and BMW's 5 series and above in the sport luxury segment. The ILX? Really? We've already had the Integra, RSX, TSX and the XXX. Do we really need another model that begs the question "where does this fit in between the Accord, Civic and TL?" They appear to be stuck in perennial underachievement.

    Note to Acura: Please, Acura, give me something with RWD and a 50/50 weight balance to seriously consider over a 535i or 550i 6-speed and S6. Go ahead and borrow some Hyundai balls to price it at $50-60k+ If you do it right, I'll buy one, I promise.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    Excellent post! Very nicely put. :D
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Glad you came back the way you did in your response, only question is, who buy these car anymore in the mass markets- East Coast?
    "Hell, even Hyundai has a V8 RWD sedan"
    I for one might trade up next summer for a 550 XI (operative word-might).
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Great rebut, billy loved it, but Quite similar. I might have been off a year with accord- the 08 newer body coupe came with 268hp 6- a very similar if not the same gearbox- throw on a pair of after market brembos and tire rack to performance tires -btw you get 18s on the accord- and you have a TL coupe- while the tL might be a great fwd turner it's still an accord in soul- a lot of soul. Which is not a bad thing- so again maybe you should save a buck or 30k and reconsider the accord.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    Tuner Accord coupe instead of a Boxster S? I don't think that's for me. I "tune" $50 million real estate projects for my day job, serve on a couple of boards where I "tune" companies for shareholders, and even "tuned" a falling down 1930's house (with a bulldozer) into a new FLW prairie style house for my wife and kids. But I've still got my $125 gas leaf blower pulled apart trying to figure out why it won't start. I wouldn't have the slightest idea of how you might tune FWD into RWD and a 60/40 weight balance into a 50/50. I don't think you'd want to ride in a car I've tried re-fitting with Brembo brakes.

    On the other hand, if I was going to take up a second career in mechanical engineering, I might start by figuring out how to replace a BMW steptronic with a 6-speed manual so Billy can have a manual transmssion 550ix's in his garage in a couple of years.

    Not me....but I do like your creative thinking.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I noticed the use of "" around a word tune, a lot. - don't get it - I said turner- ie left"turn" - "tuning" a car with new breaks and tires, that's not a tune - it's a upgrade.

    Glad your making a "tune" on realestate - watch out for those arms, ballon payments and contingencies. The comment was to say you were not an accord guy- well in a way you do own an accord, or at least a similar variation -
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    edited November 2012
    I started out with an 83 RX7 GS then a GXU RX 7 .I love those cars and they stopped making them.
    So I got into Integras , What a deal and fun ride.My last one was an RSX Type S it was a rocket ( can you say rice on here?)
    Then Acura decided that the TSX would be the entry modle (screwed )again.
    So, I had to go with BMW ,warranty was the seller,but the price was almost divorce city.
    My problem is I live in the East and Vail in the winters and swapping over to steel wheels and studded ties drove me nuts.I bought a VW Golf as I was impressed with the German quality,except for Mercedes. I needed a natural aspirated engine for the Rockies.
    Back to the 3 series do you think by laying out 41k that had the options that should of been standard I got stiffed.
    Why is it driving home after every car sale I feel like I just got screwed again.
    While my wife says that her IS was a bargain. :confuse:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited November 2012
    I think it's because cars are too similar. Once upon a time, they were all designed by people who didn't know what they were doing. In fact, it wasn't until about WWII that it was decided to put things like gas pedals and so on in the configuration that they are now in, or to decide which direction doors would open up.

    So occasionally you got a real gem in the middle of the crap. Because people were trying everything and anything to be different and maybe make a breakthrough.

    Today, cars are all jellybeans and are all designed by people that all went to the same half dozen design schools. You feel like you had to compromise because every car *is* a compromise by the time it gets through a dozen layers of management and meetings.

    Your next car should be a classic. Something that is different, simple, and about the driving. Not about the options. Something that has soul and won't depreciate out from under you.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well said.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 234,732
    I needed a natural aspirated engine for the Rockies.


    I thought it was the other way around? That you wanted forced induction at altitude? :confuse:

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  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    What is going on with the yawn feast over at Infiniti? Everyone else seems to be moving forward with new products that are bringing new customers into their brand, even Acura, but Infiniti just seems to be sitting there with their arms cross. Forget the actual products, but where is the actual news of new entry level models coming, fuel efficient/hybrid models, within the next 6-10 months?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I know this was to tweak me- but ill play the game. New customers -'like they are doing with the new Jx? They have a hybrid-
    Google Infiniti news smarty- pretty easy - enjoy the day

    http://wot.motortrend.com/spied-next-gen-infiniti-g-sedan-testing-near-the-nurbu- rgring-272761.html/0/
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I thought it was the other way around? That you wanted forced induction at altitude?

    Thanks you, I was lost on that one myself, I figured the turbo 4 would be the one to get, however, the GTI is the only golf to have non diesel to have a turbo....
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    Something that has soul and won't depreciate out from under you.

    Yeah, good luck with that. I bought a Lincoln LS back in '00 and got to watch it die over the next several years. The car definitely had "soul," but the company did not.

    YMMV
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    I thought it was the other way around? That you wanted forced induction at altitude.

    Yeah, me too. Something about the laws of physics comes to mind.

    I just love these boards.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    All engines tend to not do well at 10K+ feet. Some engines run at excess capacity and can compensate and some cannot. ie - a GM supercharger simply assumes you have normal density air/runs at full pressure and so it's effect at higher altitude is to essentially offer little if any boost to the engine. Though it will likely make the engine get enough extra air that it will operate fairly normally.

    Most turbos work similarly. The downside of turbos, though, is that most of them are attached to tiny engines that have no torque unless the tubro is engaged, so you have to downshift a gear or two to keep the RMPs up enough to get that boost. This of course is easier with a manual for either type of design, which is why manual transmissions are usually best for high altitude running as well. (snow as well - you can start a manual in 2nd while most automatics need a special snow mode).
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I did say a classic car. Something from 2000 doesn't exactly qualify. Too many computers and bits to fail as well.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited November 2012
    The E30 BMW 3 series comes to (my completely unbiased :blush: ) mind, but is a bit small by modern standards. I just helped my neighbor find a nice, local 318is. He paid $4000 for it and its tight as a drum. Its loaded too with sunroof, leather, on-board computer, cruise control, ABS, and an airbag. ;)

    The E39 5 series is a bargain today too and compares well with the current cars in this segment.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Interesting.... The VW 2.0; TSI makes 200hp and 256;bs of torque, and at 10K ft, will make roughly 80% of that, Ford Foucs ST 257hp from a 2L turbo, so again, why wouldn't you want a turbo car at higher altitudes again?

    In regards to turbo v super charger, I was under the impression that a turbo engine was better at high altitudes then say super charged engine.

    ll engines tend to not do well at 10K+ feet. Some engines run at excess capacity and can compensate and some cannot. ie - a GM supercharger simply assumes you have normal density air/runs at full pressure and so it's effect at higher altitude is to essentially offer little if any boost to the engine. Though it will likely make the engine get enough extra air that it will operate fairly normally.

    Most turbos work similarly. The downside of turbos, though, is that most of them are attached to tiny engines that have no torque unless the tubro is engaged, so you have to downshift a gear or two to keep the RMPs up enough to get that boost. This of course is easier with a manual for either type of design, which is why manual transmissions are usually best for high altitude running as well. (snow as well - you can start a manual in 2nd while most automatics need a special snow mode).
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    discharges into a lower pressure at high elevation and speeds up, which pumps up the pressure to the intake manifold accordingly. Only downside is that you still need high octane fuel in CO, unlike NA engines which run fine on 85 or 87 octane, even if they need 91 at MSL.

    Superchargers run at the same speed, regardless of elevation.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    A reporter is looking for a recent car buyer whose car's sunroof/moonroof feature was a big factor in their purchase decision. Please send your daytime contact info to [email protected] no later than Monday, November 5, 2012 at 5 p.m. Pacific.

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  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    A reporter is looking for a recent car buyer whose car's sunroof/moonroof feature was a big factor in their purchase decision.

    Are they kidding, it was a factor 30 years ago when I bought a Prelude but everything I've had since came with it whether you wanted it or not (ragtops excepted).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    Porsche went back to making the sunroof an option for the new 911. They offset it by making the navigation system standard, so it didn't look like they were being too cheap. They did it in response to requests from serious track type buyers. It adds a not insignificant amount of weight (75+/- lbs) to the very top of the car, slightly raising the center of gravity as well.

    BMW makes the sunroof a no cost option on the M3 for the same reason. Some prefer the carbon fiber roof, stiffer structure and lower weight.

    I must confess that I considered the large panorama sunroof to be a positive feature in our X5d, compared to the dinky one in the MDX. But it wasn't a major decision factor and would be even less so in a ELLPS.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited November 2012
    I think Infiniti and Acura need to be perceived as "a" (if not "the") brand to talk about (there are other makes as well that need some help in the promotion dept.)

    I subscribe to "too many" auto magazines (my wife says it's too many): Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track and Esquire (?).

    Month-in, month-out these magazines have stories, ads, "tests" & news items about Audi and BMW (to name two.) Now I know other cars buy ad space and are written about, too; but, somehow Audi and BMW always seem to be doing something that gets them written about. It is the combination of "reminder" advertising coupled with opinion pieces, features, featurettes and actual tests (and cover stories) including long-term tests and comparisons that keeps Audi and BMW in the mind's eye even if it is not "officially" tested in this month's issue.

    Audi, BMW and others (Porsche comes to mind) are often featured in words and pictures that are "lifestyle" pieces, just to make sure you're never more than a page turn away from something that shines a light on the brand.

    Of course if you are an Audi or BMW owner, you are aware of the corporate sponsored "for owners only" magazines: the slick, glossy "lifestyle" magazines that often out-do Travel & Liesure, Field & Stream and Architectural Digest, among others, for content and style. Whenever I get my Audi magazine it never ceases to amaze me the apparent expense Audi must take on to produce such a piece. Often the articles aren't even about the cars, but about some halo lifestyle.

    The magazines are meant to let you know that having a BMW or and Audi makes you a member of a very exclusive and desirable club.

    The Acura magazine is OK, but it still looks like it is a thinly disguised advert for Acura -- I can't remember any such "corporate organ" from Infiniti.

    Yes, the cars should be the stars, but marketing to make you want to be a "member" of the [fill-in-th-blank] club or to make you want to remain a member of the club is certainly important, too.

    I haven't had an Audi for 14 months, yet when I got my latest Audi magazine it was worth looking at and reading from cover-to-cover. I still felt like a member in good standing when I got it. The feeling wasn't even close when I got my first Acura magazine (14 months after the purchase of a '12 TL.)

    My wife got a Bimmer magazine and she, too, took time out to page through the entire thing -- hello Infiniti, is this thing on?

    We have Audi and BMW shirts, sweaters, wind-breaker, car-key fobs, wrist watches and stick pins collected at the auto maker's boutiques in North America and all over Europe. I even have "Audi Experience" note pads that were a gift from Audi as well as a set of 6 wine glasses with the four interlocking rings etched into them (and a complete set of brass Audi coasters to set the wine glasses on to not stain the coffee tables.) Even American Express' platinum card magazine is something most auto brands should hone in on as examples of keeping the proselytizing on-going.

    Getting a customer to buy-into the brand (you may call it hype or any thing else that means promotion) is important to keeping them in the fold. Despite my "logical" and "rational" reasons for not re-upping for Audi #30 last year, I still feel a kinship to the brand.

    The auto makers on this list could take a page out of Audi, BMW, Porsche's and (probably) Mercedes play books.

    That (the above) is "What Is Going on with Infiniti (?)".

    Drive it like you live or drive it like "they" make you think you are living.

    :surprise:
  • victor23victor23 Member Posts: 201
    Are they looking to a buyer for whom it was a big negative factor? Not because of weight, "serious track", etc, but because I dislike this option itself, and rate it (for my uses) between useless and irritating.
  • victor23victor23 Member Posts: 201
    Even the lowly Volkswagen sends you a "lifestyle" magazine (online, and about once a year, a very nice one in print).
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    All the info I have is contained right there in the request. :) Somehow, I doubt that's what they're looking for as they say "whose car's sunroof/moonroof..," implying that the car purchased by the consumer would have one.

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  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If I had leased 30 Acuras or Infinitis they probably would have given me number 31 for free and not a bunch of baubles! ;)

    Audi made a ton of money offf you over the years so they should spend a little to keep that cash flowing. I think the Japanese just have a different business model and it's not because they can't do things the Euro way or they're not smart enough to, they just have they're own way of doing business.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Mark if makes you feel better, you can start the petition over on the Infiniti Boards- lets see who will be petitioner number one (rhetorical). :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    So Infiniti needs to sent a mag to compete - that's complete HS.

    How cares about a mag or "free maintence" - make a good car at a good a good price and people will comeback.

    Billy once again adding value, As you would say "great post"
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree with your post. It does take more than bangles and bobbles and cockles and mussels (alive alive oh.)

    The cars, as I said, have to be the stars, that is the product must be be better than good (as in good is the enemy of great.) But the question I was responding to seemed to me to beg a marketing response.

    Good or even great products can get lost without sufficient and great marketing. Now, I am NOT suggesting that Acura and Infinitis at this juncture have GREAT cars -- they do, however, have good to very good products.

    The original poster seemed to ask why we don't hear much from Infiniti (as I recall it was Infiniti.)

    A great magazine, for instance, doesn't make a great car -- I only suggest that marketing practices that will support a great product are, today, needed.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    ..setting aside glossy magazines, logo coffee mugs and golf hats, I'd put these two items at the absolute pinnacle of marketing:

    (1) BMW Performance Center Delivery: Order your BMW from scratch and whether its an X5 made down the road in SC or M3 made in Germany, you have the option of picking it up at the Performance Delivery Center in Spartanburg. At NO additional charge. That includes a free night and dinner at the Marriott, 3 hours of track and off road time with BMW's professional racing/driving instructors, a tour of the 4.5 million s.f. factory and as much time as you want browsing the BMW museum and reminiscing about what you were doing when the pristine 2002 tii on display was their hot little car. I don't know what this costs BMW to put on - I went through at least $500 in tire rubber and brake pads trying to keep an X5d ahead of some young guy and his wife chasing me in an M3.

    (2) Porsche Driving Events: The BMW sister Porsche dealership, not to be outdone, invited me and my wife to a Sunday driving event 5 weeks ago. The instructor to student ratio was about 1 to 3 and for a total of 12 of us, they had no fewer than 4 Panameras, 4 Carrera S's and 2 Boxster S's for us to throw around the track. I KNOW I went through at least $1,000 of rubber at this one.

    I think Audi does similar events.

    Frankly, Acura and Infiniti (not to mention Lexus and a few others) probably shouldn't even try to replicate this type of marketing. You really need the goods to show off, if you do. Compared to the X5, our MDX would either burn right through the flimsy brakes or flip on its roof on the track, or break in half trying to go through 24" of water and up and down boulders in the off road course.

    Whether or not I ever buy another Porsche, I'll be doing some word of mouth marketing on behalf of the company for a few years as a result of that one Sunday morning.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Proof is in the pudding.
    That's why I will probably try the Germans on my next go around but for now I will enjoy my TL- only 20K going on 4 four years. My Audi Sales Rep is pounding me day in day out to trade up for the A6 Premium/Sport. I think I will pass on that. Can someone say 550XI, M-SPORT, COLD, Alpine White with Cinnamon Leather and Dark Wood Inlays, 20% rear tint and 35% front?
    As Mark would quote- What a World , What a World, What a World.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Excellent post, however, you have missed one other aspect of BMW ownership that is the BMW Club of America. They hold event year round whether it is on the track or a park. It is nice to see a company that really treats the people who buy their products as a family. The BMW motorcycle side of the company does the same thing, but they take things one step further, they have rally's (weekend events) and October is the big month. MB was big into event for their customers but have basically stop this, I'm not too sure if Audi does.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I will say that the BMW club idea is great to some - infact it maybe a driver of sales, but who really knows the value of this- I guess it does get owners closer in some way. The majority of BMW, Audi, Infiniti, mb, Acura owners do not participate in such clubs- most are buying (leasing) a car that fits needs/budgets. The majority of the people who would participate are the select few enthusiasts that not only enjoy the brand but enjoys driving. Which is a good thing- I would guess at one event you would see a lot of M series owners and 2002s and 318s -which is pretty cool - how many 399 a month leased 328 autos will be in the crowd is anyone's guess, my guess is not many. Rock the vote people.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...one other aspect of BMW ownership that is the BMW Club of America...It is nice to see a company that really treats the people who buy their products as a family.

    Except that BMWCCA is an organization independent of BMW itself. It was founded in 1969 as a support network for BMW owners - I guess back then the dealer experience wasn't what it is today. They have a close working relationship with BMW but no formal connection.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    The majority of BMW, Audi, Infiniti, mb, Acura owners do not participate in such clubs- most are buying (leasing) a car that fits needs/budgets.

    This is true, but I still think that a lot of those 399 monthly lease customers are influenced either consciously or subconsciously by what the enthusiasts do or say. That's been the basis for endorsement advertising and brand imaging for a long time, and at least with respect to something like the BMW CCA, they are getting real people / customers involved in enhancing the brand image. Buick hires Shaq to try to enhance its image, BMW lets you loose on a real track. And you tell a few friends and they tell a few friends and....
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Billy, I think you should enjoy your TL for a few more years. I'm at 8+ years and 63k on mine and it's still reasonably fun to drive. Made even more fun by beginning to teach my 17 year old daughter how to drive a stick. In the meantime, we can all pound BMW to put the 5 series on a much needed diet. No reason that a 550xi should weigh 4,500+ lbs - 130 lbs MORE than a 2013 Porsche Cayenne SUV. :cry:

    Just think what that baby would drive like at a third ton less heft. :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Hahaha

    - I just opened the Infiniti club of New England - who wants to join? Don't even need a car or driver license. Benefits include discounts at subway restaurants, courtyard by marriot and western union. $50 a year includes a yearly email with my best edmunds rants. If you act now I will throw in a set of dice valve stem caps.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    " but I still think that a lot of those 399 monthly lease customers are influenced either consciously or subconsciously by what the enthusiasts do or say"

    I will respectfully disagree - I think most of these people are seeing 399 and say 'I can get a BMW for the monthly price of a financed Camry'.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2012
    I will respectfully disagree - I think most of these people are seeing 399 and say 'I can get a BMW for the monthly price of a financed Camry'.

    Ha - you just subconsciously agreed. Why would a non-enthusiast pick a $399 BMW lease over a $399 Camry purchase?? Because, I contend, that they have been at least partly influenced by image marketing and their perception that enthusiasts drive BMW's not Camrys. Nevermind that they themselves wouldn't know what to do with a clutch pedal if it came out of the floorboard and bit them.

    You see this all the time with sportswear and professional endorsements. I always wonder what Kevin Plank thinks when he drives down the road and sees a 40 lb overweight woman jogging at 15 minute a mile pace wearing his Under Armour clothing from head to toe. I'm not sure what "house" she is protecting with all of that expensive lightweight technology, but if it makes her feel better about herself, good for her.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    This is correct, however, BMW does support the events, track days (bringing M cars to the event), clinic's and such.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    You see this all the time with sportswear and professional endorsements. I always wonder what Kevin Plank thinks when he drives down the road and sees a 40 lb overweight woman jogging at 15 minute a mile pace wearing his Under Armour clothing from head to toe.

    It's a combination of "I'm glad she's inspired by Protect this House" and "Let's see, retail price $29, COGS sold $2, wholesale price $6, x 28 million units - DAM@ I'm rich".
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