Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1491492494496497585

Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    And what track did you drive this GT-R?

    No track, I-270 and the DC Beltway during some non-rush hour times. And it was last year with a 2011 model.

    Again, great numbers on paper and there is no disputing the 500+ hp and AWD ability to get the 2-ton car around a track quickly. But until you drive one, it's hard for me to explain the unsatisfactory experience I had. This is just a sledgehammer of a car, nothing scalpel like about it, when you are driving it anywhere but the Nurburgring track. Nissan's answer to the Viper, not a Ferrari or Porsche. And, by the way, the RWD 911GT2 took back the title from the GT-R with a lap time of 7:18. Again, not that this matters that much to me. I want a sports car that is attractive, light, enjoyable to drive at 30 mph as much as 100+ and still let's me row my own gears, no matter how bad or slow I am. The GT-R is a hell of a deal for the right buyer, just not me.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,161
    Note you said 2-3 yr old Porsche - and posted a new vs new comparo. I have a Jr mechanic, he rotated my tires and chipped a rim.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Habait I have driven two GT-R's on races tracks at speed, A 2010 (stock) at Willow Springs (the big track) and 2012 (slight modified) at Firebird Raceway.After a lap or two you f forget how much the car really weights when you are throwing the car into turns at speed. The builds speed VERY quickly and can stop just as quick.

    We all have our likes and dislikes, you like the S2000 over a NSX, you like the Cayman and I like the Boxster.

    Now if Nissan can shave off 750 pounds from the GT-R I highly doubt you will fine a better car for the money...
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Now if Nissan can shave off 750 pounds from the GT-R I highly doubt you will fine a better car for the money...

    That 750 lb "shave" may involve a few hours with my chain saw and end up with something that looks more like a Cayman than a GT-R. No I suspect Nissan will continue to produce a nearly two ton GT-R and be unapologetic for its girth. As they have every right to be.

    My preference for a lighter weight, more refined, manual transmission coupe like the new Cayman S over the GT-R is just that, a preference. Most of my time in the driver's seat will be in sub-sonic speeds where nimble handling - and interior design - will be noticed, but the raw power of 545hp will not. Would I like more power? Who among us wouldn't? But if it's a trade off between 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and 2.9 seconds vs. giving up the enjoyment of shifting my own gears, a marginally ugly interior (IMO) and Barracuda inspired exterior, and a car that is "clunky" around town (Edmund's quote), I'll take 4.5. But that does not mean that I don't respect your choice to go with the GT-R based upon your preferences.

    It may be valid to call something "better" based upon a single attribute. But my choice of cars - and I suspect yours - involves several attributes, some of which are in conflict with each other and change over time. In 2005 I bought a 911S Cab at $10k more than the coupe. The soft top was a detriment to absolute track performance, but a joy for my daughters in the mini-back seats. Now I'm about to pay $3,000 more for a Cayman coupe than a Boxster. Go figure.

    Bringing this back to ELLPS, the trade-off preferences can be even more subtle. Nissan is often dinged on the lack of refinement relative to the G37 vs. the BMW 335i or even Acura TL-AWD. Other's might take the raw power and performance of a Subaru WRX and ask why anyone would consider a more expensive ELLPS. As you said, it all comes down to likes and dislikes and weighing preferences, not just a single attribute.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    It sounds to me like you might be interested in the new Scion/Subaru coupes. They are light, agile, and perfect for zooming around town and up and down mountain roads. Plus, you could get one, modify it with a supercharger, and a ton of other goodies and still be 10K under the price of the Nissan or Porsche.

    As much as I love the Cayman, it's overpriced and they still haven't really fixed the problem with the output shaft bearings. The Nissan is simply too heavy to be considered.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,651
    they still haven't really fixed the problem with the output shaft bearings

    My understanding is that the infamous Intermediate Shaft bearing failures were cured when they eliminated the entire part with the adoption of the 997 motor circa 2007. I don't think this problem ever affected the 987s (Cayman and Boxster after 2005)

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    It sounds to me like you might be interested in the new Scion/Subaru coupes.

    Once again, personal preferences. I still like playing baseball with 20- and 30- somethings, but I'm a couple decades and entire headset past wanting to have something that would characterize me as a boy racer. I'll pay up and forego that $10k difference. No argument that Porsche pricing isn't a little painful...they didn't become the most profitable car company on the planet by accident. But, to their credit, the craftsmanship and engineering is right up there with the best on the planet. I sometimes wish Honda had evolved their S2000 into an S3500, but for now, there really isn't anything in a sports car format that appeals to me as much as the Cayman and/or 911. So I guess I'll pay up for that preference as well.

    The good news is that they did fix the rear main seal leak, if that is what you are referring to. Some time ago, in fact. I had a 2005 911S (997) and it didn't drip a drop of oil in 5.5 years and 30k+ miles. That problem pretty much went out the door with the 996 model of 911 and the pre-2008 (I think) Boxsters and Caymans. My independent Porsche mechanic has a 2007 Cayman with 120k+ miles that looks brand new, and he would claim it was all about proper break in.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    I believe if honda dropped a V6 in the S2000 it would have lost it's handling characteristics that made it what it was.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Probably right. Better to leave well enough alone, and simply reminisce about what a mere $32k bought me in 2001
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,161
    What if they put that 6 in the trunk- ?
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ....and called it a Boxster??
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,161
    Only if they marked it up 15k, because they are the most profitable company in the world.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    what a mere $32k bought me in 2001

    what would be 41.8K in today's dollars (ouch)...or 10K less than a BASE Cayman.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    It's good to hear that they finally fixed the issue to a certain extent, but the issue was only finally fixed in 2009. All Porsche designs that use the intermediate shaft design are going to fail. Not if, but when. Sure, they did other tricks to keep the things lasting a bit longer, but the overall design itself was rubbish.

    Just something to keep in mind when you think about buying a "2 to 3 year old Cayman". Be *sure* it's a 2009 or newer model, since the engines are horrendously expensive to fix.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Not sure where you got your Porsche expertise, but you aren't related to my brother in law, are you? As a union electrical contractor, he is essentially forced to buy GM or Ford or suffer career consequences. So he comes up with comments like "I'd be holding my breath" on expensive repairs, mechanical failures, etc. when I bought a 911S back in 2005. As it turned out, he went through two Cadillac Escalades in the 5 1/2 years I had the 911, took massive depreciation hits on both, had POS quality issues with each, and had to actually sue his GM dealer over warrant repairs that were faulty. I had 3-4 oil changes and 1-2 minor warranty repairs that were all handled professionally. Yes, Porsche hourly service rates are definitely higher than Joe Goodwrench. But fortunately, I didn't need to use them, other than for a few oil changes. And my experience, as well as that of my colleagues, has been consistent with the fact that Porsche and Lexus have been interchanging top spots for quality and reliability the past several years.

    If you have had first hand Porsche experience to the contrary, sorry to hear that. Porsche is good, but by no means perfect, and the pre-2005 996 RMS issues were not handled as well as they should have been. But, if you are related to my brother in law and perhaps have an axe to grind against someone who prefers Porsche to Scion, that's not my issue to address.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    what would be 41.8K in today's dollars (ouch)...or 10K less than a BASE Cayman.

    I seem to recall a new Honda S2000 was still under $36,000 when they ended production for 2010. In November 2001 (2002 MY), the S2000 was at least $15-25k+ less than all of its competition of the day - SLK, Boxster S (base Boxster was only 201hp), Z3 3.0i.

    In addition, the S2000 had an options list that had exactly 1 item on it: pick your color. Everything else was standard - leather interior, power roof, etc.. It was a pretty spartan car compared to a Lexus, but it delivered on true sports car performance and engineering that only the Boxster S could match at a price of $55k, reasonably equipped. Which has now grown close to $75k, similarly equipped in 2013. Even the Base Boxster today - albeit a enormously improved car compared to the 2002 base Boxster - is $60k+ with "normal" options. A base Cayman for $52k?? Are you sure you don't want a steering wheel with that, sir? :)

    P.S. Edmund's Host, if you are watching: I recall that when I bought my 2002 S2000 in November 2001, the MSRP was $32,880 and Edmunds TMV for the DC region was $36,000, $3,200 OVER MSRP. In California, it was higher still. Perhpas you can check Edmunds archives to verify? This was 2 full years after the car was first introduced. The high demand, limited supply was still resulting in dealer premiums. I only got a discount because of an early snowfall, 10 weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. By the following spring, I had offers to sell the car for more than I paid for it - back to the dealer.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,368
    Here you go

    Research to your heart's content... ;)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2012
    Thanks, although that doesn't show what Edmunds TMV was back in 2001. Which...is just fine. I need to reprioritize my time and focus on the future if I'm going to be able to write the check for a Cayman S come April.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,368
    I think Edmunds started the Prices Paid forums in 2003.. So, that would have been after the "over sticker" days of the S2000...

    I've only been a Host since 2005, so not my fault... ;)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited December 2012
    Do a search via Google or Bing for "Porsche ims failures". Numerous sites explain that the issue affects all M96/M97 engines. The issue is that the design doesn't lubricate the bearings adequately. The problem is exacerbated by automatics and typical American driving patterns since the engine is designed to run properly (and lubricate itself properly) with frequent 5K RPM shifts.

    If you run it like you stole it and have a manual, it'll last about twice as long. If you put racing oil in it, you'll likely be fine as that's close to Euro standards. American oil is also far to low ppm zinc to give any level of fallback if the engine starts to wear out.

    According to independent analysis, they are rated for 90% reliability at 90K miles. At a constant speed of 60mph. Yes, that means you can expect 10% of the bearings to fail by 90K miles. And if you run it faster than that, it'll wear out faster. If you run low ppm oil in it or don't change it regularly, it'll wear out faster. If you lug the engine or have an automatic, it'll also wear out faster.

    The bearings are garbage and essentially need to be replaced like a timing belt at 60-70K miles to be safe.

    At $2500 cost. (10 hours labor plus $900 in parts last I checked, plus tax.) Quite a steep "service item". To top it all off, they look at you like you are daft if you question this logic. I mean, the first 15K mile service cost a mere $500 (a couple of rounds of golf), so why are you complaining about a $2500 bearing change every 4 or 5 years?

    You have to love Porsche dealers...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Or you install the LN Engineering upgrade once and you're good.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Yeah, that's the $2500 "fix". The one nice thing is that you can get a lot of used Boxsters and Caymans with blown engines for literally nothing. Rebuild the engine and upgrade the IMS bearings and you're golden.

    But buying new or CPO, yeah, get a 2009 or newer.

    All of that said, though, I dearly miss the S2000. They really need to make a replacement version of it. Maybe a little more bling and a hard top as well. I'd still rather have a S2000 versus a Cayman.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    If you really, really wanted to know, you could use the "help" link at the top of this page, then choose the "contact us" option. There's a person, or several people, who provide historical values, but really only by request that way.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    I have to to give it to Acura when the NSX had the snap ring issue, they stepped up and would replace the transmission with no questioned asked. Of course this only effected some of the 91 ans 92 NSX's. So how Porsche done the same thing with the problem? This to me shows if the manufacture really cares about its reputation or not.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Porsche sort of acknowledged the problem by beefing up the IMS bearing in later (M97) models. I don't believe there are many (or any?) instances of failure with the M97.

    Just one of several good reasons to just say no to water cooled Porsches IMHO... :)
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    I have to say this has been an interesting threat about the IMS failure, I have extended my search for my fun car between the NSX and a Boxster S, now I am aware of the IMS failure, I know what I'm getting myself into. From the readings here it seems that the IMS should be replaced as a failure will happen at some point and the cost of the replacement is much less then the cost of a new engine.

    So if porsche is aware of the problem why haven't they helped owners out like Acura had done with the Snap Ring on the NSX?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited December 2012
    Dont know. Could be the general European attitude about planned obsolescence. Who knows?

    The nice thing about the IMS issue is you can get an older Boxster for pennies, do the upgrade and end up with a really fine sports car for cheap.

    Ive been toying with the idea of doing this just to keep the miles off my 911.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    I would think that Porsche could pay for the replacement of the IMS to the upgraded one for no cost, this would go a long way in customer relations and if an engine needed to be replaced because of the IMS, Porsche could pay for half or 3/4 of price tag. I'm not too sure how I would feel if I paid 85K for my new (2007) Porsche and 5 years later at 75K miles (or so) needed to spend 20K on a new engine because of a part that Porsche knew would fail... I'm surprised no law suits have been files over this.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,642
    Could be the general European attitude about planned obsolescence

    I'm not too sure if this is really case or that the attitude has changed to have this happen. MB build theirs to last look at the W126 series S class. They are tanks, well build and have lasted. But of course this meant people weren't trading in their S class's as often and MB wasn't selling the cars they wanted.

    In regards to the Boxster, this is why I have been looking at them. One can get a 2005-07 at a good price. Spent 2500 for the replacement of the IMS and have a car that will last a while...
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    All you have to do is look at a new BMW, Audi, Range Rover, etc. to see that the Euro manufacturers obviously dont want the owner servicing the vehicle.

    We are supposed to buy new from the dealer, drive for 3 or 4 years, then trade in on another new one.
Sign In or Register to comment.