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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    During my family visit in the Old Country this Xmas, I drove my dad's Audi A4 1.9TDI (2005, I think).

    Would never switch my 328i for it (or previous WRX/STI, or any other good gasoline engine), not in milion years. The clacking sound is still something to get used to. I appreciate better fuel economy and torque, but everything else is better on a good gasoline engine: sound (as for pleasure of well-running engine), noise level, vibrations, weight. Yes, the torque is higher on diesel, but it lasts for 1000 rpm and then it's gone - and when it's gone and you forget to shift, you get run over. May not be such a problem for those new 7-, 8- speed automatic transmissions, but my dad's A4 had 6-speed manual. I love manual transmissions, but not on diesels, apparently - you end up shifting back and forth, always caught on wrong gear (car stops accelerating after the torque peak in merging/passing, or it starts vibrating when left on too high gear for current speed - often issue in city driving).

    No, diesels are not such a pleasure as some may like you believe. Some of those issues may be (have already been) overcome on newer models, but in my opinion diesel engine belongs to tractor trailers and other heavy duty workhorse machines, not for passenger cars. SUVs - maybe.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A reporter would like to speak to a woman who is a new Lexus IS owner. If you fit the description, please send your daytime contact to pr@edmunds.com no later than 3 p.m. PT/6 p.m. ET, Friday, January 11, 2013.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited January 2013
    In 2001 I was in Italy a couple of weeks for business and drove some kind of small minivan like vehicle. I can't even remember the make but it was diesel and a manual transmission(5 spd I think). I was impressed with how quiet and smooth it was. I didn't find the torque disappearing and remember driving around lake Garda and the curvy roads enjoying the scenery and shifting through the gears. Freeways were also worry free. I remember being passed by a Smart on the freeway at about 150 klicks and saying "holy crap, I wouldn't go that fast in that thing!"

    Point is, I think it depends on the particular diesel engine. I also believe I would try at a least a couple of modern diesels with 7-8 spd auto trannies before I made a blanket statement that all diesels belong in semis or farm tractors.
  • buyabuya Member Posts: 74
    Thank you. That was a helpful review. I almost forgot the turbo diesel lag that I felt in the bimmer I once had a fraction of a century ago. It was a good car, but the lag was still felt at times. And diesel wasn't widely available at regular gas stations either. There's no reason for me to reconsider buying a diesel yet, and if it's mpg I'm after, I may consider a reliable hybrid like Prius. I was about to reconsider turbo diesel cars. So thanks again.

    How do you guys feel about the Lexus 300h? Is it a prettied up Camry hybrid? Which would you buy?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Perhaps you're right, but VAG's 1.9TDI (previous gen 4-cylinder diesel) was a highly acclaimed motor, a special favorite in high-mileage used car markets, like my Old Country's (Poland). My dad's is abot 100k miles, which is nothing for those engines. Granted, that engine is also an older-generation, developed prior common rail technology. It is known for high durability and good resistance to abuse due to substandard fuels and hard working conditions. All great, but the price was noise, vibrations and short torque curve.

    The new enviro-friendly diesels are known for overcoming many of those issues (lower noise, not as much vibrations, better power delivery), but the price paid is steep - high maintenance and much reduced durability. So, if having to choose between noisy durable diesel, or quiet fragile diesel, I choose gasoline engine.

    I think many Americans confuse marriage of reason between Europeans and diesel with some kind of love without limits. Europeans opt for diesels mostly because their governments push them to do so by taxes on both vehicles and fuel and because diesels to get better gas mileage. In the world of fuel priced at $6-8, a lawn mower may be attractive for people mover.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    What will Porsche do to meet these tougher CAFE requirement? Import a diesel 911???

    I think the average would be included in VW total...so the Golf's, Jetta's, etc would do the heavy CAFE lifting...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Would never switch my 328i for it (or previous WRX/STI, or any other good gasoline engine), not in milion years.

    Not sure comparing a 328i to an older A4 1.9 TDI is a fair comparison. I'm driving a 2013 328ix loaner today with 1,400 miles on the odometer. Great car, but I have to say that the 335d would be my strong preference for both performance and fuel economy over a 328i. Had to shut off the engine start stop feature to maintain my sanity in stop and go traffic. There is no diesel clatter in my friend's 2011 335d and it definitely has more punch when you need to accelerate on the highway. He gets an honest 40 mpg on highway cruising at 75 mph and 30 mpg overall. The trip computer on the 328ix loaner shows 23.3 mpg overall; probably heavy city driving.

    That said, the current 8,400 rpm NA V8 M3 with a 6-speed manual is about as sweet as a 3 series gasoline engine can get. I'd be the first to admit that if a really sporty, engaging drive is what you want, hard to beat a naturally aspirated high rpm manual transmission car like the M3.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino of course some of the engine in Europe aren't as refined as others. To pass judgement on the car you drove in europe with one that are imported here is like saying, there isn't much difference in a M6 and a Yaris...

    Drive a Passt or Jetta diesel you will be quite surprised on how well they run and really how quite it is for a diesel.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Ivan, I'm not too sure about this, if it is true please post a link so I can read it. Because I'm sure Infiniti and Lexus would be linked to Nissan and Toyota. Since Infiniti, Lexus and Porsche are imported as their own brand, one would assume that they are separate brands.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    It would not be fair, pricewise, compare 328i to 335d. To me valid choice would be 335i vs. 335d - that would be no contest, IMHO. I understand all the limitations of comparisons between new BMW and old Audi. However, to be fair i terms of pricing, four cylinder diesel is one to make real comaprisons to the lower-powered gasoline engines, whether smaller 6-cyl, or turbo four.

    My point is, US based consumers THINK they want diesel because they see them in Europe and assume that's what Old World people want. All I'm saying, popularity of diesel there is artificially stimulated by public policy, taxation and other incentives. Anybody, who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS, would never even consider a diesel, except perhaps commercial vehicles, like taxi cabs and such. Moreover, the traditional advantages of diesels are going away. Bottom line - still clacking engine, less so than before, but more upfront cost, more maintenance, more prone to failures, sensitive to fuel quality, who knows if will last as long as older generations.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I thought all were based on the main company, e.g. GM, Toyota, Nissan...but it may not be that definitive

    Porsche would have needed to make the largest increase in mpg, however, the fact that VW absorbed the sports-car company means there’s a good chance that Porsche’s fuel economy will now simply be part of the conglomerate’s overall average.

    "Good chance" does not mean it is; not certain how it's determined

    C&D article
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Let's see aren't the new direct injection gas engines ( mostly) louder with a clattering on startup when cold, more sensitive to fuel quality( and carbonong up) and likely to be less long lived? I think until you drive a modern 4 cyl diesel, you may want to reserve judgement, at least the auto mags from Europe I.e Car magazine, are saying that the 4 cyl diesel 3 series is the one to have ( unless you afford the M of course). And yes they prefer the manual. I think there may have been something wrong with your family member's Audi, as that is not how I experience my diesel's power, and it is only a 40hp three cyl, but there is more than 1000 rpm of usually power, or perhaps it was just the corporate VW diesel was not really suited to a car the size and weight of the Audi, though I am sure the newer versions would be better ( they are no longer the top of the class for modern diesels, good but not the best).
    In any case what is wrong with having the choice of more diesel cars here, no one is going to force you to buy one if you don't want one, why can't those of us that do want one have that choice?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN....just got home from the CES show in Vegas (~150,000 attendees). The cabbies are, in my estimation, the best gages for how the Vegas economy is doing. According to them, Vegas is coming along nicely with the recovery.

    Anyone who's been there knows the range of vehicles they use as taxis are all over the map. My limo guy picked me up at the McCairn in a 735i. Town cars aren't the limo of choice these days, so it seems.

    Asking one of the Prius taxi drivers if he'd consider a diesel, his answer was swift and emphatic....NO!

    His reasoning was the hybrids and gasoline cars have the same longevity these days. Plus, the additional cost of buying diesel fuel offsets any additional MPG.

    Segueing back to ELLPS, our 335i and S4 both get 20-21 MPG+ in the city, and nearly 30 MPG highway. These are performance cars capable of 0-60 sub 5 sec times that will cruise all day at 130 MPH + in quiet and comfort.

    Manufacturers have tried to get diesels to be more appealing in the U.S. I know a small, but vocal segment like them. They won't be successful here, however.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic I was going to head to Vegas for a quick turn around and spend sometime at the CES (use to go for work between 86-96.)

    The problem I see, is that a premium is paid for the oil burner engine, then the price of fuel is more too. Just as the cabbie stated, however, with the new CAFE requirements coming into play, 30 MPG wont cut for the car manufactures.

    In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited January 2013
    I think unfortunately your "dino" forum name perhaps belies a few dinosaur like biases towards diesels?

    The difference in price between a 2011 335d and the 2013 328i is a fraction of the difference between a 328i and a old VW 1.9 TDI. The 2013 328ix I had as a loaner had a sticker price of just under $51,000.

    As far as "anybody who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS would never even consider a diesel"? Are you talking about the 95% of American ELLPS buyers that end up in a slush box automatic with a non-sport suspension? Or the 5% that really want and buy a sport sedan? Because if it's the latter, unless you are in a 335is with a real 6-speed manual and sport suspension, you aren't giving up much of anything in the 335d. Its competitive 0-60, MORE than competitive 30-80, can be equipped with a sport package suspension, etc. I think I could spec out a 335d that would put it ahead of 90% of the so called American market ELLPS's on the "S" front. And the fact that it would get 30 mpg overall and near 40 mpg on the highway would be a bonus.

    Fact is, the 3 series has become a little less "S" with it's weight gains, size gains, and lower revving turbo engines. Great cars, no doubt, but the real "S" customers are probably heading towards a 135iM on one end, M3 on the other. So, given that, I see the 335d - and even more so the new breed of M diesels, including the M550d - being extremely competitive with their gas counterparts for the average American buyer. Especially those that consider themselves "S" oriented, but come up with various reasons for not getting a stick.

    As for more maintenance and reliability, that is the big advantage of diesels. We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles. Their counterparts - old 525i's have been recycled into paperweights long ago.

    I just put a deposit on a 2014 Cayman S last night. So obviously I'm not in disagreement with the fact that a high revving, naturally aspirated gas engine mated to a real manual transmission is the choice of preference for a sports car. But that's not what most 3.600+ lb ELLPS buyers are looking for, and I think current and future diesel technology will make more and more sense for the ELLPS application.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    1000 rpm was an exagerration, but I basically stand by my comments, also because I know more diesel owners than most Americans - not just my dad, but also number of friends and relatives. Pretty much all of them said the same thing - they all would buy an 8- or 6-cylinder gas cars, if not for the fuel costs. They DO NOT love their diesels same way I loved my WRX, STI, or E9x 328, or some other people love their Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, or even Acuras or Lexus. They buy those diesel cars, because governments in Europe made it impossible (cost prohibitive) to own vehicle like those listed above - not just by fuel taxes, but by excise taxes, registration fees, etc., all tied to engine displacement with sharp increases for everything above 2 liters. In that world diesel beats gasoline, delivering more torque and better fuel economy, indeed, mostly because gas engine fights with one hand tied behind the back. In the past, diesel fuel was also 20% less expensive than gas, not the case anymore, but it helped establish present dominance of the diesels there. However, the math is working less and less and there is a slight reversal in preferences. Those things take time, though.

    Anyway, call me a fossil. I'm not saying I'd never get a diesel, but as long as I can afford it, as long US government doesn't do same market rigging, as European, I take gasoline engine.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles.
    You missed my point, exactly. Those 300 TD are old style diesels, true million milers, indestructible machines that would run on vegetable oil. They were also noisy, slow, awkward. The new E350 Bluetec is nothing of that. Yes, it is quiter, fast, nice, but its durability is not million miles, by a long shot. The old magic of "running forever" is gone. Even commercial vehicle drivers (bus, truck and such) confirm that the new machines are nowhere near in terms of durability in comparison to the old ones.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • buyabuya Member Posts: 74
    Your sentiments are understood. I would too pick naturally aspired strong engine cars over cars boosted with turbo/dual turbo, diesel engine and combined engines. EV is in its infancy and it wouldn't even be considered. Fact is, the car industry doing business in the States does have to follow mpg stipulations set by our gov't, and the diesel engine seems most promising in helping them adhere to the scheduled guidelines. The gov't is not acting to help drivers save money. If enough people drive diesel, the fuel will be widely available and being a byproduct or not it will cost a lot too at the pumps. Americans like muscle cars, and if diesel cars dominate the market without offering desirable zoom power, people may scream for the return of muscle cars. Curious which current diesel or turbo diesel car you think is the best?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Curious which current diesel or turbo diesel car you think is the best?

    There isn't much to choose from, at the moment. Traditionally MB and VAG have good diesel motors, I'm sure BMW can hold its own, too. They're all in different market segments. Can't say I have any real opinion, what is better. I was susprised to hear that PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) was considered one of best in its class. Honda and Subaru have late diesel entries in JDM and Europe, heard good things about those (it would be really interesting to hear how diesel boxer sounds). All majors (GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan) have diesels in other markets, but bringing them here is not so simple, due to diferent environmental rules.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    The new E350 Bluetec is nothing of that. Yes, it is quiter, fast, nice, but its durability is not million miles, by a long shot. The old magic of "running forever" is gone.

    Do you have the data to back up that statement?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I think I would worry about the electronic gremlins in the dash more then the engine with standard maintience.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    I should have been less definitive in my post. It was an opinion, not a statement of fact, based on general MB (lack) of reliability record in last 10+ years, myriad of statements from automotive press, some anectotal report from commercial drivers of "new diesels". In other words, I should have written something like "many people, including me, do not expect those engines last anywhere close to those 300 TDs, even when properly maintained - which in itself is more expensive and a chore". There is also matter of complexity, the more complex those motors are, the more things can go wrong. Yes, it is an opinion. Btw, the last item applies pretty much to all engines. It will be much harder to run those new 250 hp gasoline turbos to 200k miles, too, not without expensive electronic overhauls, which nobody will be willing to pay for (you put in several thousands and you still get old car). I'm not even so sure about basic mechanical parts, like pistons, or shafts, either - in current drive to remove mass, optimize performance, redundancies are being removed, which in turn must cut into durability. Again, just an opinion, but based on some general engineering priciples I use at work in another field (structures).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I agree with you dino001. Manufacturers that offer diesels don't work for me. I'd welcome the extended range & consider the price differential as an engine upgrade.

    VW offers cheap diesels, but frankly long term durability scares me.

    BMW's twin turbo Diesel I6 is a gem. I'm not in the market for a $65K X5d. Even CPO, they are pricey. The E90 335d is only offered in RWD.

    I'm not in the market for a $55K Bluetec E350 or ML 350 either.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    You still haven't said why it is a bad thing for the diesels to even be offered here, get that you prefer a gas engine, and I respect your opinion and would never want you to not be able to buy one ( the Government may have different ideas, but that applies to the diesels as well), why shouldn't people who want to buy a diesel car have a chance to do so? Are you afraid that your preferred gas engined cars will disappear? ( not likely any time in the near future, as you said they are still improving them, and even in Europe they still make up half the market).
    In any case you are entitled to your opinion, and no one here would want you to be forced to buy a diesel, hopefully both engine types can finally be available here, and diesels can begin to build a bit of market share, but if they turn out to be as bad as you think ( hint they won't, but I do agree they may not last any longer than a gas engine now, who knows for sure, but they likely won't be any worse either). Hopefully you can see that some people are interested in getting diesel in their cars and are excited by the possibility of getting one that is not a VW.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?

    Yes, the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima hybrid models both use the same reg auto transmission as their non-hybrid versions.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    Oh no, you must have misunderstood my intent. I am never against choices, so if somebody makes it and somebody else wants it, I have no problem. Not for me, but sure, if there is market why not. I find my own preferences in minority all too often to ever even hint of prohibition of anything.

    I only contested claims that just because European market has a lot of diesel powered small cars, they must be great or even better than gas engines for non-commercial passenger cars. I basically think diesels would not be nearly as popular there, if not for government interference and heavy regulatory hand and steep disincentives for large displacement engines. In my opinion, American market, prior current administration's overzealous initiatives was closest to "natural", with some limitations of course. I would risk saying that majority of Europeans would take American sixes and eights without blinking. They'd keep interiors and suspensions of their current cars, but they would be more than happy to switch those 1.6 cdi, or whatever, to 3.5 V6, if the government only "let" the them. I don't mean those are prohibited, but they are prohibitively expensive due to government. The said part is, current Administration wants to do the same.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    I also believe Honda CRZ can even be had with manual. But that is so-called soft hybrid.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Okay Dino maks more sense now.
    I don't think the American market was closest to natural as diesels have not been offered here due to overegulation, I do agree that the playing field was/ is uneven in Europe though, I would guess the percentages for diesel in the fleet would be somewhere around 15-20% or maybe a bit higher if everything was even in terms of fuel taxes etc, I think people are used to gas engines and how they run, that said the torque low down and the low revs of the engine will appeal to a lot of people as well, the fuel economy is still better ( though the gap has closed). In any case as more non VW mainstream diesel's get here we will see if there is a market for them or not, right now we can only guess, I know I like my small diesel, though I wouldn't mind getting something a little larger ( the size of a Mazda 3 or so) with a diesel and probably getting close to the milage I am getting with my smart diesel. I did grow up with European cars so am used ota smaller engine than most Americans/Canadians, so accept a smaller more efficient engine better than some. In any case each to his own, I am just happy to see some diesels coming here, and looking forward to seeing how they sell and how they are rated for fuel economy etc.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    I agree there may be a anti-diesel bias in emission regularions here, so it is fair to say there would have been more of them in smaller vehicles, if not for it. Considering Europe has 50% penetration through heavy regulation, US has nearly zero, also due to bias, 10-20% "natural" penetration makes sense to me, if regs were left neutral. There are legitimate uses for diesel in smaller vehicles, mostly in high mileage highway application, a bit less in city, but still. Cabs, minivans, some SUVs, especially those used hauling boats, or outdoors/off-road. Anything that hints severe operaton, heavy duty, long running times. Diesels last longest when kept warm, virtually on at all time, running at constant speeds.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I know this is the ELLPS forum, however, the topic goes all over the place, so here is the official introduction of the 2014 C7 Vette. 450hp 450lbs of torque, not too bad.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-c7-corvette-stingray-z51-photos-- and-info-news?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1458_6594116
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Again, just an opinion, but based on some general engineering priciples I use at work in another field (structures).

    I respect your general comments, but I think you need to take blind opinion-ism and replace it with a little more objective research and analysis. For example:

    According to NADA, the retail resale value of a 2008 Mercedes E320 CDI with 75,000 miles is $26,065. The resale value of the same E350 is $22,925. The E550, $27,750. If you increase the mileage to 120,000, the CDI begins to approach the E550 resale and is well ahead of the E350.

    There is no doubt in my mind, based upon everything from objective resale values, to experience of friends and colleagues, to what I have heard and read from both mechanics and mechanical engineers, that the current Mercedes Bluetec and BMW diesels are MORE durable and less likely to require major repairs than their gasoline counterparts, especially in high mileage use.

    You are entitled to form your opinions on whatever biases you may have, but I think a bit of actual research may prove them to be incorrect.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    While others post albeit interesting posts on porshe and gms corvette - a few ellps have been announced today. Yep the new Infiniti, MB and Lexus. Just want to make sure we are all in the same chat here.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Thanks for keeping us on track sweendogy;)

    I saw a pic of a "320i" on BMW's Facebook page. Anybody know what the specs are on that?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1081637_2013-bmw-320i-entry-level-luxury-star- ting-at-33445

    I'll be at the Detroit Auto show this weekend, I'm hoping they have it there along with the new 320d.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    So have the likes of Dinan & Turner Motorsports started extracting more power from BMW's 2.0 L Turbo 4? Maybe this 320i will be the decontented model enthusiasts want. If the 328i can be chipped, then I'm sure a 320i can as well.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dinan works hand in hand with BMW, I would assume as soon as the car hits the shores one will go to them.

    So here is a link for the new Infiniti Q50 has lots of techie stuff, so far they only talk about the V6 and Hybrid...

    http://www.infinitiusa.com/all-new-q50/?next=Home_Page.PFA.Button.Q50_Micro
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN...thanks for the links. Have to see the 'vette in person, but on paper, it looks really good. Plus, they've given it some nice performance updates...even the base model.

    Diesels just don't sell in this country. Lots of reasons for that....some valid...some not. Again, with the advancements in gasoline power, and hybrid technology (as well as electric cars) I don't think diesels will be anything but a niche, at best, here.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    clicked on the design video and I thought it was a Lexus coming at me. Sure looks like a clone of sorts of the Lexus spindle front end.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Is in full swing and the car that are being shown, are amazing. I'm leaving for Detroit Thursday night can't wait to see some of these cars in person. SO far my schedule will allow me to be at the New York Auto show in April I just hope it is a little warmer then it is currently...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Diesels just don't sell in this country. Lots of reasons for that....some valid...some not. Again, with the advancements in gasoline power, and hybrid technology (as well as electric cars) I don't think diesels will be anything but a niche, at best, here.

    I think this is slowly changing, VW sells every single diesel they import, same for Audi and MB. With the new wave of diesel coming in more mainstream cars this is what it might take to change people thoughts.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Agree with flight- had a buddy in mass who had to go to Detroit to get a golf vw- couldn't find one on the east coast.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I agree at the moment it is the self fullfilling prophesy, Americans won't buy diesels ( hatchbacks, wagons, manuals etc) so we won't bring them here, thus nobody buys them because they aren't available, meaning that no one else brings them. I think there is a market for diesel's ( and the rest) if only they will bring them, VW and the rest of the Germans seem to be doing okay with them, we will see what happens with the other diesels that are said to be coming, if the sell more will follow.
    Like I said in an earlier post I think you could get up to 25% of the market being diesel, another 25% or so hybrid, maybe 40% gas, and 10% other in the near future, with the other percentage growing in the long term, with gas engines being the loosing group, diesel may get higher if they can get an economical bio diesel out, Natural gas may get some ( but I think it is better used for ther things, the market may disagree) electric will get some and will increase as range increases and charging stations appear along at least the highways, hydrogen may come if they can figure out how to produce it cheaply enough, and using less energy to get it than it gives, and who knows what else could happen, or the worst could happen and there won't be any personal transportation for normal people.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I would choose cold fusion or the flux capacitor.
    In a cheap Eco car diesels or hybrids work if they can bot for similar dollars and save mucho dollars in gas. That's why they work in Europe - things change- look at ford selling all those V6 full size pick up trucks .
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    So again, why does VW, Audi and MB sell every single diesel they import? Now granted we are talking 50-60K units a year.. What is interesting though, VW.Audi and MB do not do a real mega advertising blitz on them either and they sell every single one.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    According to my BMW dealership you can order a 320i starting in Feb with a March del date. You can build one on BMW website, I believe they have done it right, both Auto and Manuel are no charge, Limited colors and interior, limited options, one can be had for under 40K that is almost fully loaded. Would be interesting to see what Dinan can do with the engine, 180hp is OK, but 240 is even nicer...

    Now in regards to the wagon, my dealer tells me that the wagon will not be imported, however, it is on BMW USA website. I'll find out myself Sat when I'm at the Detroit Auto Show.

    I'm in the planning stage of going to the NY Auto show, and one in the NY area planning on going? would be nice to go through it with other car enthusiast...
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited January 2013
    I would believe the website, not the dealer on the wagon. It is clearly in "Future Vehicles" tab, not "concepts". I think there will also be 3-series GT coming to the US, as well. I love my wagon so much, I'd not get the new one, but if they sell 335i GT with manual, that's the one I could consider buying instead of my wagon. I think 335i is likely, just as 5-series GT is only sold in higher output engine versions (535 and 550). Manual - that may or may not come. If they keep it in line with rest of 335 offerings, it should be available, but no saying for sure.

    320i - that's news to me. I got to check it out. Not that I'd buy, but it is curious. It basically means they think the market is ready for low-powered BMW.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Wow, the pricing on F30 is simply outrageous.

    I optioned 320i to "dino's minimum": red (metallic), sports and premium package and split fold down back seats (must - THEY ARE STILL $500 OPTION :mad: :mad: :cry: ) and you fly by 40 grand on the sticker (around $41K). No sunroof yet (another grand). Add that, Navigation, xenons, anti theft, BMW Assist to roughly match my E90 wagon you get over $45K on the sticker, just about thousand less than my wagon's sticker (and that's "new" car, so don't expect big discounts). And that is for 50 hp less, four cylinder (rather than 6), no automatic headlight, no homelink, less metal, they want just about the same price.

    Granted, my wagon was last year of the platform, leather was "free", but still. Just amazing what some people think their product is worth. I'm pretty sure the market will verify some of that pricing wishful thinking. Can only imagine those lease deals.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    dammit!
    I really thought you guys were talking about a 320 diesel. :cry:

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Holy cow! When I did the "build your own" for the 320xi, it came to a few bucks shy of $40K!

    Cannot get the cold weather package w/o getting leather, it seems.

    Wonder if BMW would consider putting in the 180HP turbo 4 into the 1-series?
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Probably Sween, its right in his backyard ( the NYC Auto Show).
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