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Would never switch my 328i for it (or previous WRX/STI, or any other good gasoline engine), not in milion years. The clacking sound is still something to get used to. I appreciate better fuel economy and torque, but everything else is better on a good gasoline engine: sound (as for pleasure of well-running engine), noise level, vibrations, weight. Yes, the torque is higher on diesel, but it lasts for 1000 rpm and then it's gone - and when it's gone and you forget to shift, you get run over. May not be such a problem for those new 7-, 8- speed automatic transmissions, but my dad's A4 had 6-speed manual. I love manual transmissions, but not on diesels, apparently - you end up shifting back and forth, always caught on wrong gear (car stops accelerating after the torque peak in merging/passing, or it starts vibrating when left on too high gear for current speed - often issue in city driving).
No, diesels are not such a pleasure as some may like you believe. Some of those issues may be (have already been) overcome on newer models, but in my opinion diesel engine belongs to tractor trailers and other heavy duty workhorse machines, not for passenger cars. SUVs - maybe.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Point is, I think it depends on the particular diesel engine. I also believe I would try at a least a couple of modern diesels with 7-8 spd auto trannies before I made a blanket statement that all diesels belong in semis or farm tractors.
How do you guys feel about the Lexus 300h? Is it a prettied up Camry hybrid? Which would you buy?
The new enviro-friendly diesels are known for overcoming many of those issues (lower noise, not as much vibrations, better power delivery), but the price paid is steep - high maintenance and much reduced durability. So, if having to choose between noisy durable diesel, or quiet fragile diesel, I choose gasoline engine.
I think many Americans confuse marriage of reason between Europeans and diesel with some kind of love without limits. Europeans opt for diesels mostly because their governments push them to do so by taxes on both vehicles and fuel and because diesels to get better gas mileage. In the world of fuel priced at $6-8, a lawn mower may be attractive for people mover.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think the average would be included in VW total...so the Golf's, Jetta's, etc would do the heavy CAFE lifting...
Not sure comparing a 328i to an older A4 1.9 TDI is a fair comparison. I'm driving a 2013 328ix loaner today with 1,400 miles on the odometer. Great car, but I have to say that the 335d would be my strong preference for both performance and fuel economy over a 328i. Had to shut off the engine start stop feature to maintain my sanity in stop and go traffic. There is no diesel clatter in my friend's 2011 335d and it definitely has more punch when you need to accelerate on the highway. He gets an honest 40 mpg on highway cruising at 75 mph and 30 mpg overall. The trip computer on the 328ix loaner shows 23.3 mpg overall; probably heavy city driving.
That said, the current 8,400 rpm NA V8 M3 with a 6-speed manual is about as sweet as a 3 series gasoline engine can get. I'd be the first to admit that if a really sporty, engaging drive is what you want, hard to beat a naturally aspirated high rpm manual transmission car like the M3.
Drive a Passt or Jetta diesel you will be quite surprised on how well they run and really how quite it is for a diesel.
My point is, US based consumers THINK they want diesel because they see them in Europe and assume that's what Old World people want. All I'm saying, popularity of diesel there is artificially stimulated by public policy, taxation and other incentives. Anybody, who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS, would never even consider a diesel, except perhaps commercial vehicles, like taxi cabs and such. Moreover, the traditional advantages of diesels are going away. Bottom line - still clacking engine, less so than before, but more upfront cost, more maintenance, more prone to failures, sensitive to fuel quality, who knows if will last as long as older generations.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Porsche would have needed to make the largest increase in mpg, however, the fact that VW absorbed the sports-car company means there’s a good chance that Porsche’s fuel economy will now simply be part of the conglomerate’s overall average.
"Good chance" does not mean it is; not certain how it's determined
C&D article
In any case what is wrong with having the choice of more diesel cars here, no one is going to force you to buy one if you don't want one, why can't those of us that do want one have that choice?
Anyone who's been there knows the range of vehicles they use as taxis are all over the map. My limo guy picked me up at the McCairn in a 735i. Town cars aren't the limo of choice these days, so it seems.
Asking one of the Prius taxi drivers if he'd consider a diesel, his answer was swift and emphatic....NO!
His reasoning was the hybrids and gasoline cars have the same longevity these days. Plus, the additional cost of buying diesel fuel offsets any additional MPG.
Segueing back to ELLPS, our 335i and S4 both get 20-21 MPG+ in the city, and nearly 30 MPG highway. These are performance cars capable of 0-60 sub 5 sec times that will cruise all day at 130 MPH + in quiet and comfort.
Manufacturers have tried to get diesels to be more appealing in the U.S. I know a small, but vocal segment like them. They won't be successful here, however.
The problem I see, is that a premium is paid for the oil burner engine, then the price of fuel is more too. Just as the cabbie stated, however, with the new CAFE requirements coming into play, 30 MPG wont cut for the car manufactures.
In regards to hybrids, is there a hybrid sold in the US that does not have a CVT?
The difference in price between a 2011 335d and the 2013 328i is a fraction of the difference between a 328i and a old VW 1.9 TDI. The 2013 328ix I had as a loaner had a sticker price of just under $51,000.
As far as "anybody who enjoyed American-market based ELLPS would never even consider a diesel"? Are you talking about the 95% of American ELLPS buyers that end up in a slush box automatic with a non-sport suspension? Or the 5% that really want and buy a sport sedan? Because if it's the latter, unless you are in a 335is with a real 6-speed manual and sport suspension, you aren't giving up much of anything in the 335d. Its competitive 0-60, MORE than competitive 30-80, can be equipped with a sport package suspension, etc. I think I could spec out a 335d that would put it ahead of 90% of the so called American market ELLPS's on the "S" front. And the fact that it would get 30 mpg overall and near 40 mpg on the highway would be a bonus.
Fact is, the 3 series has become a little less "S" with it's weight gains, size gains, and lower revving turbo engines. Great cars, no doubt, but the real "S" customers are probably heading towards a 135iM on one end, M3 on the other. So, given that, I see the 335d - and even more so the new breed of M diesels, including the M550d - being extremely competitive with their gas counterparts for the average American buyer. Especially those that consider themselves "S" oriented, but come up with various reasons for not getting a stick.
As for more maintenance and reliability, that is the big advantage of diesels. We have plenty of 300TD's and SDL's in our area that are still chugging along just fine at 200-300k+ miles. Their counterparts - old 525i's have been recycled into paperweights long ago.
I just put a deposit on a 2014 Cayman S last night. So obviously I'm not in disagreement with the fact that a high revving, naturally aspirated gas engine mated to a real manual transmission is the choice of preference for a sports car. But that's not what most 3.600+ lb ELLPS buyers are looking for, and I think current and future diesel technology will make more and more sense for the ELLPS application.
Anyway, call me a fossil. I'm not saying I'd never get a diesel, but as long as I can afford it, as long US government doesn't do same market rigging, as European, I take gasoline engine.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You missed my point, exactly. Those 300 TD are old style diesels, true million milers, indestructible machines that would run on vegetable oil. They were also noisy, slow, awkward. The new E350 Bluetec is nothing of that. Yes, it is quiter, fast, nice, but its durability is not million miles, by a long shot. The old magic of "running forever" is gone. Even commercial vehicle drivers (bus, truck and such) confirm that the new machines are nowhere near in terms of durability in comparison to the old ones.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
There isn't much to choose from, at the moment. Traditionally MB and VAG have good diesel motors, I'm sure BMW can hold its own, too. They're all in different market segments. Can't say I have any real opinion, what is better. I was susprised to hear that PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) was considered one of best in its class. Honda and Subaru have late diesel entries in JDM and Europe, heard good things about those (it would be really interesting to hear how diesel boxer sounds). All majors (GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan) have diesels in other markets, but bringing them here is not so simple, due to diferent environmental rules.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Do you have the data to back up that statement?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
VW offers cheap diesels, but frankly long term durability scares me.
BMW's twin turbo Diesel I6 is a gem. I'm not in the market for a $65K X5d. Even CPO, they are pricey. The E90 335d is only offered in RWD.
I'm not in the market for a $55K Bluetec E350 or ML 350 either.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
In any case you are entitled to your opinion, and no one here would want you to be forced to buy a diesel, hopefully both engine types can finally be available here, and diesels can begin to build a bit of market share, but if they turn out to be as bad as you think ( hint they won't, but I do agree they may not last any longer than a gas engine now, who knows for sure, but they likely won't be any worse either). Hopefully you can see that some people are interested in getting diesel in their cars and are excited by the possibility of getting one that is not a VW.
Yes, the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima hybrid models both use the same reg auto transmission as their non-hybrid versions.
I only contested claims that just because European market has a lot of diesel powered small cars, they must be great or even better than gas engines for non-commercial passenger cars. I basically think diesels would not be nearly as popular there, if not for government interference and heavy regulatory hand and steep disincentives for large displacement engines. In my opinion, American market, prior current administration's overzealous initiatives was closest to "natural", with some limitations of course. I would risk saying that majority of Europeans would take American sixes and eights without blinking. They'd keep interiors and suspensions of their current cars, but they would be more than happy to switch those 1.6 cdi, or whatever, to 3.5 V6, if the government only "let" the them. I don't mean those are prohibited, but they are prohibitively expensive due to government. The said part is, current Administration wants to do the same.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I don't think the American market was closest to natural as diesels have not been offered here due to overegulation, I do agree that the playing field was/ is uneven in Europe though, I would guess the percentages for diesel in the fleet would be somewhere around 15-20% or maybe a bit higher if everything was even in terms of fuel taxes etc, I think people are used to gas engines and how they run, that said the torque low down and the low revs of the engine will appeal to a lot of people as well, the fuel economy is still better ( though the gap has closed). In any case as more non VW mainstream diesel's get here we will see if there is a market for them or not, right now we can only guess, I know I like my small diesel, though I wouldn't mind getting something a little larger ( the size of a Mazda 3 or so) with a diesel and probably getting close to the milage I am getting with my smart diesel. I did grow up with European cars so am used ota smaller engine than most Americans/Canadians, so accept a smaller more efficient engine better than some. In any case each to his own, I am just happy to see some diesels coming here, and looking forward to seeing how they sell and how they are rated for fuel economy etc.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-c7-corvette-stingray-z51-photos-- and-info-news?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1458_6594116
I respect your general comments, but I think you need to take blind opinion-ism and replace it with a little more objective research and analysis. For example:
According to NADA, the retail resale value of a 2008 Mercedes E320 CDI with 75,000 miles is $26,065. The resale value of the same E350 is $22,925. The E550, $27,750. If you increase the mileage to 120,000, the CDI begins to approach the E550 resale and is well ahead of the E350.
There is no doubt in my mind, based upon everything from objective resale values, to experience of friends and colleagues, to what I have heard and read from both mechanics and mechanical engineers, that the current Mercedes Bluetec and BMW diesels are MORE durable and less likely to require major repairs than their gasoline counterparts, especially in high mileage use.
You are entitled to form your opinions on whatever biases you may have, but I think a bit of actual research may prove them to be incorrect.
I saw a pic of a "320i" on BMW's Facebook page. Anybody know what the specs are on that?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I'll be at the Detroit Auto show this weekend, I'm hoping they have it there along with the new 320d.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
So here is a link for the new Infiniti Q50 has lots of techie stuff, so far they only talk about the V6 and Hybrid...
http://www.infinitiusa.com/all-new-q50/?next=Home_Page.PFA.Button.Q50_Micro
Diesels just don't sell in this country. Lots of reasons for that....some valid...some not. Again, with the advancements in gasoline power, and hybrid technology (as well as electric cars) I don't think diesels will be anything but a niche, at best, here.
I think this is slowly changing, VW sells every single diesel they import, same for Audi and MB. With the new wave of diesel coming in more mainstream cars this is what it might take to change people thoughts.
Like I said in an earlier post I think you could get up to 25% of the market being diesel, another 25% or so hybrid, maybe 40% gas, and 10% other in the near future, with the other percentage growing in the long term, with gas engines being the loosing group, diesel may get higher if they can get an economical bio diesel out, Natural gas may get some ( but I think it is better used for ther things, the market may disagree) electric will get some and will increase as range increases and charging stations appear along at least the highways, hydrogen may come if they can figure out how to produce it cheaply enough, and using less energy to get it than it gives, and who knows what else could happen, or the worst could happen and there won't be any personal transportation for normal people.
In a cheap Eco car diesels or hybrids work if they can bot for similar dollars and save mucho dollars in gas. That's why they work in Europe - things change- look at ford selling all those V6 full size pick up trucks .
Now in regards to the wagon, my dealer tells me that the wagon will not be imported, however, it is on BMW USA website. I'll find out myself Sat when I'm at the Detroit Auto Show.
I'm in the planning stage of going to the NY Auto show, and one in the NY area planning on going? would be nice to go through it with other car enthusiast...
320i - that's news to me. I got to check it out. Not that I'd buy, but it is curious. It basically means they think the market is ready for low-powered BMW.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I optioned 320i to "dino's minimum": red (metallic), sports and premium package and split fold down back seats (must - THEY ARE STILL $500 OPTION :mad: :mad: ) and you fly by 40 grand on the sticker (around $41K). No sunroof yet (another grand). Add that, Navigation, xenons, anti theft, BMW Assist to roughly match my E90 wagon you get over $45K on the sticker, just about thousand less than my wagon's sticker (and that's "new" car, so don't expect big discounts). And that is for 50 hp less, four cylinder (rather than 6), no automatic headlight, no homelink, less metal, they want just about the same price.
Granted, my wagon was last year of the platform, leather was "free", but still. Just amazing what some people think their product is worth. I'm pretty sure the market will verify some of that pricing wishful thinking. Can only imagine those lease deals.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I really thought you guys were talking about a 320 diesel.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Cannot get the cold weather package w/o getting leather, it seems.
Wonder if BMW would consider putting in the 180HP turbo 4 into the 1-series?