Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · February 2013

Talking about pricing and packaging - most chatter I've ever seen about this rig on these channels- no one is talking about what you really get with this 37k MB- a weak engine and sub group performance - I guess you do get the keys with the star on it - you get to walk into a dealership with 100k cars around. I still can't wrap my head around German premium car companies charging for leather on any car.

dino001 · February 2013

I feel your pain, brother

They charge because they can. If they couldn't, they wouldn't. BMW had no charge for leather in last couple of years of E9x sedans and wagons - not because they were so nice, but because they couldn't charge and still get target sales. F30 came and extra charge for leather is back.

graphicguy · February 2013

dino....I always seem to look at Benzes when I'm in the market. That's about as far as I get given they really aren't all that sporty of a drive (until you get into the really high buck AMG versions). And, I try to understand the allure of them.

Perhaps I'm only looking at the "run of the mill" MBs like the Cs and Es. I just can't make that leap. They aren't built any better than a comparable Audi or BMW. They certainly don't perform better than either of those. And, these days, not even the Japanese can claim tech or reliability superiority over Audi or BMW.

For the same, usually less money, you can get something that's better, in most ways, from BMW or Audi.

I'll have to assume that pushing the Mercedes marque down the ladder with the CLA is taking a page out of GM's marketing book. "Hook them on a low priced Chevy (in Mercedes' case, a CLA), and move them up the model ladder".

That Mercedes Star, at that price point, is going to open up their market to perhaps one that they wouldn't necessarily want.

Hope to see the CLA at the auto shows. At least on my computer monitor, it looks pretty slick. But, so does a BMW 1 series or an A3, its competition.

flightnurse · February 2013

I'll have to assume that pushing the Mercedes marque down the ladder with the CLA is taking a page out of GM's marketing book. "Hook them on a low priced Chevy (in Mercedes' case, a CLA), and move them up the model ladder".

Aren't BMW and Audi doing the same thing with the 1 series and A3 ? Acura is doing it with the ILX too.

graphicguy · February 2013

FN.....good point. I guess the lux marks see gold to be mined where Accords and Camry sometimes play.

sweendogy · February 2013

Camry and accord comment - true pricing might be the same- but again how can we call these cars Elpps- they don't offer much lux in standard form and performance is less then the mentioned accord.

flightnurse · February 2013

This is a great question, so would you buy a Acura ILX or a fully loaded Camry?

flightnurse · February 2013

Sweeny the typical buyer will not understand what ELLPS means and they really do not care. Most buyers buy by monthly payment, and if they can afford a Camry XLE with all the bells and dodad's then they will buy it. Why do you think that most dealership bring out that "worksheet" and ask you what you want to spend a month.

Car segments are changing, and some cars in which YOU do not think fit in the traditional ELLPS, but they do. It will be interesting in the next 3-5 yrs what will be considered ELLPS.

graphicguy · February 2013

FN.....I can't even remember the last time I drove a Camry....at least 2-3 generations ago. And, I've never driven an ILX. So, not sure if I can answer your question.

Would I look at them? Sure! But, as most of us here are, I'm a car fanatic. I'm interested in all cars.

Generally speaking, the customer for a Camry probably wouldn't consider any Mercedes for no other reason than they think maintenance and repairs are too costly and frequent. That perception can be debated. But, perception is reality in most people's minds.

I know the 2 years I've owned my 335i, I haven't spent one nickel on maintenance due to BMW's 4 year "no maintenance cost" plan. The GF got a 4 year maintenance plan for the S4 where everything is covered. That was extra cost, and I can't remember what it was. When she asked me about it, it seemed reasonable at the time so it wasn't anything extraordinary.

I've had the BMW in once for warranty work. The driver's leather seat had an area that was discoloring. They didn't re-dye it. They actually replaced the entire seat cover. Aside from oil changes and I think a software update they did for IDrive the last time I had the oil changed, that's been in.

The GF's S4 has only had an oil change and tire rotation. That's it.

Will a Camry be the same? They have a reputation as being trouble free. But, it sure seems like I read about a whole lot more recalls the last couple of years regarding Toyotas, than I hear from Benz, Audi, BMW or Acura.

I don't pay much attention to Lexus or Infiniti. So, I don't know if an inordinate amount of recalls extend to those brands or not.

I see the CLA's customer as being a young (20s) person not really looking for performance. But, one who's looking for an entre into the German marks and the alleged status they bring to the table (whether that status is real, or imagined).

For a little bit more than a Camry, they can have a Mercedes, regardless of whether a CLA is or is not the better performing car.

Something tells me you're going to see dealers back load those cars with the crazy wheels, spoilers, etc that make most of us cringe. But, that's the type of customer the CLA will appeal to. Dealers better get ready for a whole new type of tire kickers entering their showrooms once the CLA is released.

Personally, I like the looks of the CLA. That might change when I see one in person. But, given that I put a higher priority on overall performance with my lux, I doubt I'll consider a CLA as something that would sit in my garage.

I'm betting a Camry SE with a V6 will out handle and out accelerate a CLA. Yet, they won't be cross shopped by that same 20 something.

flightnurse · February 2013

Graphic, I believe the CLA will get the AMG treatment, which will give it some performance. I agree that the CLA will bring a whole new type of customer to MB, just like GT-R brought a whole different buyer to the Nissan Dealer. Lots of changes happening and it will be interesting to see how the dealers will change.

stickguy · February 2013

the real question though is if the CLA will be grounded to the ground.

graphicguy · February 2013

the real question though is if the CLA will be grounded to the ground.

Love it....made me grin, stickguy.

FN...Be real interesting to see how the CLA dealers handle the onslaught of the "hat backwards" crowd.

I saw one of the funniest sights I can reacall in quite some time. Saw an older Altima last night with what looked to be cheapo LCDs haphazardly strewn in the headlight casing. I let him get in front of me, and sure enough, he had LCDs in each headrest, playing some video, but no one was in the back seat to see it.

That always makes me chuckle.

sweendogy · February 2013

"hat backwards crowd?" - how they are handled by the dealers...throw in the Altima story and we have a red flag.

I think they will do just fine "accepting" this crowd. Do all German cars some with a snob option or is that extra- like the premium paint?

flightnurse · February 2013

I saw one of the funniest sights I can reacall in quite some time. Saw an older Altima last night with what looked to be cheapo LCDs haphazardly strewn in the headlight casing. I let him get in front of me, and sure enough, he had LCDs in each headrest, playing some video, but no one was in the back seat to see it.

Was the car plated from Jersey?

I believe the "turn around hat" crowd already shops at the german auto makers, in SoCal, many of the younger drivers are already driving newer german cars. I don't think it is much of a difference who goes into the dealerships, stereotyping will get one in trouble and no one wants to lose a sale,.

m6user · February 2013

Sorry, but just because a car has leather, some bells and whistles and MSRPs at the very low end of the ELLPS price range does not put it in a luxury category nor does it put it in a performance category. I don't believe anybody that buys a Fusion, Camry, Accord or Passat with a V6 and leather believe they are bying a luxury car just because the price overlaps the bottom of the ELLPS. They just know they are getting all the NAV, big sound, leather etc and realize if they wanted all that in a real luxury car they would be paying north of $40k, not north of $30k. +

flightnurse · February 2013

So what is the "official" definition that _we_ must follow M6 of what is a ELLPS? Are you the grand Car Czar to tell us what models are and are not ELLPS? Or are the manufactures the one who do it?

m6user · February 2013

No need to get your shorts in a twist. I absolutely am not saying I make the decisions. I kind of think the list at the top of this page does a decent job based on real data which I believe is based on consumer feedback and NOT on someones arbitrary opinion. I'm just saying that non-luxury makes don't pretend to be luxury so why should we put them in that category just because the top of line in their bread and butter cars cross slightly over into the absloute bottom of the ELLPS prices. Toyota makes the Lexus and calls it their luxury car and provides the warranty, service, dealership experience to go along with it. They don't market the Camry as luxury....they market it as value.

If you can't tell a Camry from a luxury, performance sedan just by sight, feel and drive than you really should buy the Camry and save some money as you will not appreciate the difference.

andys120 · February 2013

I saw my first Caddy ATS (outside of an Auto Show). IMO it's the best looking car they make. This one was Metallic Pearl White (a color that does not favor most cars).

sweendogy · February 2013

Pretty cool from the pix I've seen I like as well with big wheels- also think (and seen) the largest caddy, forgot the name- is a looker as well.

Flight I did not say its the quickest to 60, said I liked the looks - so you can correctly quote that.

flightnurse · February 2013

Interesting I would place the Hyundai Genesis V8 is the category that you are saying. Hyundai is a Econ brand car company, however, owning one now for a while, I can tell you it is ever bit a luxury car. It's not a ELLPS, I would classify it as a ELLC (Entery Level Luxury Car.) It doesn't have the refinement of a E class however (but pretty darn close), the price difference is $25K too.

Isn't perception part of this equation? Look at the first and second generation Lexus ES, just a over the top Camry, however, Lexus couldn't get them on the lots....

andys120 · February 2013

also think (and seen) the largest caddy, forgot the name- is a looker as well.

Interesting that you forgot the name (XTS) but symptomatic of the mess they have made at Cadillac (and Lincoln as well as others) of naming the various
models. Nomenclature should be the easy part but they can't seem to get it right and when they do, they mess it up (ala BMW).

carnaught · February 2013

You are SO right about the car nomenclature. Everything in Lincoln is a "Mark" (MK), and all Caddy's are "touring sedans".

I guess Continentals and DeVille's no longer have any cache :confuse: .

flightnurse · February 2013

Continentals and DeVille's are synonyms with old people and both GM and Ford do not want anything to do with that. Lincoln was always the sporty of the FMCo luxury divisions. Now, many people could make an argument about this that both Continentals and DeVille's made sporty/stylist cars. However, it appears that both companies have decided to go down different roads.

ATS, nice care, have been able to rent 2 of them, both with turbo's. Not as roomy inside as say a A4 or 3 series.
XTS, nice car, it is large, rented it once, over all, better then the car it replaces however, the V6 is weak in the car of its'size.

carnaught · February 2013

Continentals and DeVille's are synonyms with old people and both GM and Ford do not want anything to do with that.

Agreed, but it would be nice if they could remake that image. The "not your father's Oldsmobile" and "not your Uncle Olaf's Volvo" isn't always successful

.

sweendogy · February 2013

If I bought a new caddy , I would get an old school emblem from a deville or cineron - and slap that to the back, but i would not haphazardly do this - make it look good- would also consider a couple of headrest TVs. I miss car names as well.

I think the Cts-v is a great start to get youth into the showrooms - 500 hp monster that still comes in stick.

Lincoln on the other hand has a long way to go, besides changing the name of the company to bring youth into the showrooms . The new technology of its self driving car is pretty cool thou-

rayainsw · February 2013

I wonder what will 'trickle down'
to the next TL?

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/rlx/2014/road-test.html

- Ray
Acura used to be on my radar....

markcincinnati · February 2013

I read the test report, today in USATODAY on-line, of the new Acura RLX. The price came in at $61,000. The thing is, this was a front-wheel-drive version and it was noted that the AWD version wouldn't be here 'til fall and that the way the thing got to AWD would be by the addition of two electric motors one each driving a rear wheel. Comment was that this would add complexity and cost (and a heavy battery pack.)

The car is probably every bit as nice to drive as Healy says it is, but for $61K you can get a very well equipped Audi A6 or BMW 5 (both of them AWD variants.) The Acura isn't ugly, it's just boring looking, too.

What were they thinking?

What will drift down to the new TLX (or whatever it is called)? Will the TL at least retain the availability of SH-AWD (I think only AWD TL's should be offered -- to really be in the ELLPS class)?

To my eye a top o' the line Passat looks more "premium" than the RLX (and the current TL -- and I know, I have one.)

What makes something belong to a certain class -- it seems the lines have become blurred somewhat. There is no way I would put this new RLX in the LPS class, despite a $61K MSRP (as tested.)

I thought too that Lincoln was having a case of wishful thinking when they wouldn't allow their new baby to be tested against an Avalon -- since the Lincoln folks clearly didn't want to see their new Lincoln Motorcar hanging out with the riff raff.

And, I do agree with a previous poster, that the Genesis certainly seems to pass the smell test insofar as it being able to pass as a premium or at least entry-level-premium, if such a thing exists.

I mentioned my airline pilot friend -- a long time BMW owner/driver -- got a Genesis R Spec hot on the heels of owning a BMW 5, and he loves it. He probably doesn't count though since he usually just goes from his house to the airport long term parking and back. A 5 series probably was overkill for his twice weekly commute.

In any case, I started out wondering who in the wide-wide-world of sports would pay $61K for a front-wheel-drive Acura. I don't see it. :confuse:

mlevine · February 2013

I would wait to see reviews on the RLX after it is out a year before buying it. Acura's key cars hace been the TSX, TL, and its SUV's. Not sure why they are have this model in the line-up. Infiniti finally got rid of the Q45 as it did not sell, and marketed the G and M series successfully.

sweendogy · February 2013

I agree one should wait on an Acura product but not due to quality but to performance because the current line (awd TL included) is a dog and has been since the tsx and TL redues - it's amazing how long they have gone without producing a solid exciting sedan- the mdx is in what it's 6th year in current form and by far it's best product- but I've been saying this for years. Yes Infiniti hit it right with the first g, the second even better- coupe convert and awd right in the form of what they are chasing - & somehow offering much more at price (dollar for dollar even the biggest BMW lover could not disagree) - they did it right lets hope the new q50 continues this but I will miss the g name. Dk much about the M or its impact- sure its a nice car but even as an Infiniti fan has it left a real mark? I don't know.

xrunner2 · February 2013

I agree one should wait on an Acura product but not due to quality but to performance because the current line (awd TL included) is a dog and has been since the tsx and TL redues - it's amazing how long they have gone without producing a solid exciting sedan-

Well, the styling leaves a lot to be desired. Not sure that the current version is a "dog". Road and Track review of the top super handling TL has very good performance numbers and specs compared to BMW and others who have the "magic" RWD.. Wife and I having owned a 2001, now a 2004 and 2007, we are waiting for an "elegantly" styled and nicely performing next gen. Have driven the current gen as a loaner, agree with car magazine testers that steering and on-center is a problem compared to our 2004 and 2007. Will Acura have a redesigned Acura TL in 2014? Or, will it be later.

sweendogy · February 2013

Well look at the sales numbers and tell me they are not a dog. I would look again, now styling asides, and terrible by most accounts, BMW audi and Infiniti (don't dk about lex) make better cars then then TL. The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

You and the wife can own as many TLs as you want but until acura makes a better TL they haven't had a good car since the previous TL (which you have oned, bravo)

mlevine · February 2013

Acura seems to make good quality cars. They are solid vehicles, but honda has never been about being stylish. Initially when the M sedan came out it appears it was very popular. The recent generation M took a hit with its looks and transmission problems.

nyccarguy · February 2013

I know it isn't a luxury nameplate, but this Chevrolet SS looks promising.

Rear Wheel Drive
415 horsepower V8
Sport Tuned Chassis
Brembo Brakes
5 Second 0-60 mph time
"GM said handling is improved by a near 50/50 weight distribution and a low center of gravity  made possible in part by the aluminum hood and rear deck lid."

This looks to me like basically a sedan built on the Camaro Platform.
Offer this "sport tuned chassis" with the V8, & AWD and I'd most certainly give it a test drive. How much could this thing possibly cost? MSRP of what, $36K to $39K?

flightnurse · February 2013

NYCAR, GM has tried this many times and have failed, last time was with the G8. For this car to be successful, GM has to make sure that the car is screwed together correctly, and have a premium feel to it. The price is right thought.

flightnurse · February 2013

The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

Sweeny even though the TSX is a European accord, it is not an alternative for the US accord. The US accord is more the size of the TL.

sweendogy · February 2013

For the price it's an alternative, right? Same engines. Leather , parts., larger cheaper, newer -

I hope this GM SS brings the heat- I don't consider the Pontiac GT cars a failure- I think they were a casualty of poor management decisions at GM, unions and the economy tanking, lets not forget gm went bankrupt. Was it a little to late for Pontiac, yep. I don't know if the cars were a failure, as much as it was bad timing.

flightnurse · February 2013

The recent generation M took a hit with its looks and transmission problems.

The current M has a problem with looks? I dont think it has, the biggest problem Infiniti has really is MPG, the VQ V6 drinks a lot of gas, also the price of the M. Inifiniti prices their G lower than a BMW 3 series but the M is priced more...

plekto · February 2013

The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

Sweeny even though the TSX is a European accord, it is not an alternative for the US accord. The US accord is more the size of the TL.

The Accord that they sold in Japan until the model change this year was the same Accord that they sell in the rest of the world as the Accord.

Except in the U.S., where they called it the Acura TSX and charged a premium for it. What we got as the Accord over here is a car that's in-between the Civic and the Accord, called the Inspire. The Accord that we get over here now is a special-built car for the U.S. market and as such it still is a kind of bastardized car that's really not the same thing that they sell in Japan.

If you want the real "Accord", buy what they call the TSX like the rest of the world does. It's a far better vehicle than the over-sized mess that we are now getting. Personally, I'd take a CPO TSX over a new Accord. If I wanted a car that was that big and drove like the new Accord/TL, I'd buy a Buick or maybe a Toyota Avalon.

nyccarguy · February 2013

I used to be as anti GM as they come. In my eyes, they've really done a complete 180 compared to the garbage they put in the showroom in the '80s, '90s, & the better part of the '00s.

After 2 superb ownership experiences with BMW X5s (2004 & 2007), my Dad decided he wanted a bigger vehicle. He bought a 2010 LTZ Tahoe. After 2 years & 50,000 miles he traded it in & bought a 2011 LTZ Tahoe. After years of driving imports, my best friend bought a 2009 LTZ Tahoe & then traded it in on a 2011 Tahoe. Are they as we'll designed as the German or Japanese cars? No. GM does seem to be making great strides. Enough so that if one of their vehicles (like the SS) drives the way I like a car to drive, that I'd have no problem buying one.

mlevine · February 2013

In my daily dealings I have had people like the design of the prior M generation than the current one. The same can be said of the prior QX56 and newest design. I was almost going to lease the M37, but multiple issues with the transmission shifting prompted me to stay away. I am still a fan of the M37 and compare it to the E class MB and BMW 5 series.

flightnurse · February 2013

For the price it's an alternative, right? Same engines. Leather , parts., larger cheaper, newer -

The TSX is smaller than the last 2 generations of Accord, I don't think its the same engine either. Price could be in line, but the people shopping an Accord were not cross shopping a TSX. Friends who bought a TSX never once went to a honda dealer and looked at an accord.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-ss-sedan-photos-and-info-news

Just another Aussie built RWD... When Rick and I were in Australia a few years ago being car nutz, we checked out some of the Ford and GM cars, as far as overall design they are different, not just that they are RHD, they do their own thing when it comes to design. Not saying that it was right or wrong, just different The G8 was a good car, however, the dash design was not what Americans liked. Like i said, I hope GM doesn't screw this one up.

flightnurse · February 2013

I like the M too, however, for the price I think a 5 series is a better car. The price for a M56 is slightly less (1,500) then a 550i. I'd take the twin turbo V8 over the INfiniti V8, and a 550i can be had with a manuel, something the infiniti lacks. The E class is not a sport sedan unless you look at the AMG model.

sweendogy · February 2013

If price is inline - why would they not shop accord vs tsx? Both have a 4 and a 6 engine - both are Hondas and both can be had with leather- both are fwd. To me it doesn't make sense not to cross shop.

sweendogy · February 2013

BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free. Very nice.

owners of 3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011, then BMW is recalling your vehicle.

Lots of leased cars coming back to the showrooms- could use this also as a time to seduce people to early return cars, CPO could heat up.

busiris · February 2013

BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free. Very nice.

owners of 3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011, then BMW is recalling your vehicle.

Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

Of the 3 BMW products I currently own, all since new, it's the first recall I've personally had from BMW.

IMO, some folks make way too much "static" about car recalls. Unless a recall is for something serious (brakes may fail without prior warning, car fuel tank may explode without warning, etc.), I just don't see a recall as a big deal.

My daughters both drive Nissan products, and both experienced recalls. One was for a potential leaking brake master cylinder inspection, and the other for an incorrectly installed side air bag. In both cases, no defects were found on either car.

Frankly, as complex as many cars are today, I'm surprised there aren't more recalls.

sweendogy · February 2013

Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

Sorry should have added that was a paste job from yahoo news, so not my terminology. I did add the CPO comments on the end.

Agree recall talk sometimes over done- but with giant recalls come longer lines for those of us that need to go to the dealer for an oil change.

mlevine · February 2013

The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them. I agree the AMG package is the true sports package. With me it came down to M37 vs E350 with the tranmission issues swaying me to the MB. I have never been able to get a good deal on any BMW vehicles from the local dealers. I have had the infinitiQ45 loved this vehicle and prior generation QX56 also a great vehicle.

flightnurse · February 2013

Sweeny the Honda and Acura have different buyers, this is why someone wouldn't cross shop the Accord and TSX.

flightnurse · February 2013

The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them

That makes it a sport sedan... :confuse: This is why the E class has always done poorly when it's been compared with the mid size sedan of it's price range.

sweendogy · February 2013

I would like to know why they have different buyers?

When I bought (leased) my first new car in 2000, I looked at the v6 accord coupe vs the integra gs-r - the rates at the time very close- integra being stick and was a little sportier won out.

If I was looking at the ilx or tsx I would look at the accord as well.

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