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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,707
    also think (and seen) the largest caddy, forgot the name- is a looker as well.

    Interesting that you forgot the name (XTS) but symptomatic of the mess they have made at Cadillac (and Lincoln as well as others) of naming the various
    models. Nomenclature should be the easy part but they can't seem to get it right and when they do, they mess it up (ala BMW).

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,600
    edited February 2013
    You are SO right about the car nomenclature. Everything in Lincoln is a "Mark" (MK), and all Caddy's are "touring sedans".

    I guess Continentals and DeVille's no longer have any cache :confuse: .
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    Continentals and DeVille's are synonyms with old people and both GM and Ford do not want anything to do with that. Lincoln was always the sporty of the FMCo luxury divisions. Now, many people could make an argument about this that both Continentals and DeVille's made sporty/stylist cars. However, it appears that both companies have decided to go down different roads.

    ATS, nice care, have been able to rent 2 of them, both with turbo's. Not as roomy inside as say a A4 or 3 series.
    XTS, nice car, it is large, rented it once, over all, better then the car it replaces however, the V6 is weak in the car of its'size.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,600
    Continentals and DeVille's are synonyms with old people and both GM and Ford do not want anything to do with that.

    Agreed, but it would be nice if they could remake that image. The "not your father's Oldsmobile" and "not your Uncle Olaf's Volvo" isn't always successful ;) .
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    If I bought a new caddy , I would get an old school emblem from a deville or cineron - and slap that to the back, but i would not haphazardly do this - make it look good- would also consider a couple of headrest TVs. I miss car names as well.

    I think the Cts-v is a great start to get youth into the showrooms - 500 hp monster that still comes in stick.

    Lincoln on the other hand has a long way to go, besides changing the name of the company to bring youth into the showrooms . The new technology of its self driving car is pretty cool thou-
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,563
    I wonder what will 'trickle down'
    to the next TL?

    http://www.edmunds.com/acura/rlx/2014/road-test.html

    - Ray
    Acura used to be on my radar....
  • I read the test report, today in USATODAY on-line, of the new Acura RLX. The price came in at $61,000. The thing is, this was a front-wheel-drive version and it was noted that the AWD version wouldn't be here 'til fall and that the way the thing got to AWD would be by the addition of two electric motors one each driving a rear wheel. Comment was that this would add complexity and cost (and a heavy battery pack.)

    The car is probably every bit as nice to drive as Healy says it is, but for $61K you can get a very well equipped Audi A6 or BMW 5 (both of them AWD variants.) The Acura isn't ugly, it's just boring looking, too.

    What were they thinking?

    What will drift down to the new TLX (or whatever it is called)? Will the TL at least retain the availability of SH-AWD (I think only AWD TL's should be offered -- to really be in the ELLPS class)?

    To my eye a top o' the line Passat looks more "premium" than the RLX (and the current TL -- and I know, I have one.)

    What makes something belong to a certain class -- it seems the lines have become blurred somewhat. There is no way I would put this new RLX in the LPS class, despite a $61K MSRP (as tested.)

    I thought too that Lincoln was having a case of wishful thinking when they wouldn't allow their new baby to be tested against an Avalon -- since the Lincoln folks clearly didn't want to see their new Lincoln Motorcar hanging out with the riff raff.

    And, I do agree with a previous poster, that the Genesis certainly seems to pass the smell test insofar as it being able to pass as a premium or at least entry-level-premium, if such a thing exists.

    I mentioned my airline pilot friend -- a long time BMW owner/driver -- got a Genesis R Spec hot on the heels of owning a BMW 5, and he loves it. He probably doesn't count though since he usually just goes from his house to the airport long term parking and back. A 5 series probably was overkill for his twice weekly commute.

    In any case, I started out wondering who in the wide-wide-world of sports would pay $61K for a front-wheel-drive Acura. I don't see it. :confuse:
  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 214
    I would wait to see reviews on the RLX after it is out a year before buying it. Acura's key cars hace been the TSX, TL, and its SUV's. Not sure why they are have this model in the line-up. Infiniti finally got rid of the Q45 as it did not sell, and marketed the G and M series successfully.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    edited February 2013
    I agree one should wait on an Acura product but not due to quality but to performance because the current line (awd TL included) is a dog and has been since the tsx and TL redues - it's amazing how long they have gone without producing a solid exciting sedan- the mdx is in what it's 6th year in current form and by far it's best product- but I've been saying this for years. Yes Infiniti hit it right with the first g, the second even better- coupe convert and awd right in the form of what they are chasing - & somehow offering much more at price (dollar for dollar even the biggest BMW lover could not disagree) - they did it right lets hope the new q50 continues this but I will miss the g name. Dk much about the M or its impact- sure its a nice car but even as an Infiniti fan has it left a real mark? I don't know.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    I agree one should wait on an Acura product but not due to quality but to performance because the current line (awd TL included) is a dog and has been since the tsx and TL redues - it's amazing how long they have gone without producing a solid exciting sedan-

    Well, the styling leaves a lot to be desired. Not sure that the current version is a "dog". Road and Track review of the top super handling TL has very good performance numbers and specs compared to BMW and others who have the "magic" RWD.. Wife and I having owned a 2001, now a 2004 and 2007, we are waiting for an "elegantly" styled and nicely performing next gen. Have driven the current gen as a loaner, agree with car magazine testers that steering and on-center is a problem compared to our 2004 and 2007. Will Acura have a redesigned Acura TL in 2014? Or, will it be later.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    edited February 2013
    Well look at the sales numbers and tell me they are not a dog. I would look again, now styling asides, and terrible by most accounts, BMW audi and Infiniti (don't dk about lex) make better cars then then TL. The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

    You and the wife can own as many TLs as you want but until acura makes a better TL they haven't had a good car since the previous TL (which you have oned, bravo)
  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 214
    Acura seems to make good quality cars. They are solid vehicles, but honda has never been about being stylish. Initially when the M sedan came out it appears it was very popular. The recent generation M took a hit with its looks and transmission problems.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,905
    I know it isn't a luxury nameplate, but this Chevrolet SS looks promising.

    Rear Wheel Drive
    415 horsepower V8
    Sport Tuned Chassis
    Brembo Brakes
    5 Second 0-60 mph time
    "GM said handling is improved by a near 50/50 weight distribution and a low center of gravity — made possible in part by the aluminum hood and rear deck lid."

    This looks to me like basically a sedan built on the Camaro Platform.
    Offer this "sport tuned chassis" with the V8, & AWD and I'd most certainly give it a test drive. How much could this thing possibly cost? MSRP of what, $36K to $39K?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    NYCAR, GM has tried this many times and have failed, last time was with the G8. For this car to be successful, GM has to make sure that the car is screwed together correctly, and have a premium feel to it. The price is right thought.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

    Sweeny even though the TSX is a European accord, it is not an alternative for the US accord. The US accord is more the size of the TL.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    For the price it's an alternative, right? Same engines. Leather , parts., larger cheaper, newer -

    I hope this GM SS brings the heat- I don't consider the Pontiac GT cars a failure- I think they were a casualty of poor management decisions at GM, unions and the economy tanking, lets not forget gm went bankrupt. Was it a little to late for Pontiac, yep. I don't know if the cars were a failure, as much as it was bad timing.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    The recent generation M took a hit with its looks and transmission problems.

    The current M has a problem with looks? I dont think it has, the biggest problem Infiniti has really is MPG, the VQ V6 drinks a lot of gas, also the price of the M. Inifiniti prices their G lower than a BMW 3 series but the M is priced more...
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The tsx is a nice accord alternative but not a better car for thr price.

    Sweeny even though the TSX is a European accord, it is not an alternative for the US accord. The US accord is more the size of the TL.


    The Accord that they sold in Japan until the model change this year was the same Accord that they sell in the rest of the world as the Accord.

    Except in the U.S., where they called it the Acura TSX and charged a premium for it. What we got as the Accord over here is a car that's in-between the Civic and the Accord, called the Inspire. The Accord that we get over here now is a special-built car for the U.S. market and as such it still is a kind of bastardized car that's really not the same thing that they sell in Japan.

    If you want the real "Accord", buy what they call the TSX like the rest of the world does. It's a far better vehicle than the over-sized mess that we are now getting. Personally, I'd take a CPO TSX over a new Accord. If I wanted a car that was that big and drove like the new Accord/TL, I'd buy a Buick or maybe a Toyota Avalon.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,905
    I used to be as anti GM as they come. In my eyes, they've really done a complete 180 compared to the garbage they put in the showroom in the '80s, '90s, & the better part of the '00s.

    After 2 superb ownership experiences with BMW X5s (2004 & 2007), my Dad decided he wanted a bigger vehicle. He bought a 2010 LTZ Tahoe. After 2 years & 50,000 miles he traded it in & bought a 2011 LTZ Tahoe. After years of driving imports, my best friend bought a 2009 LTZ Tahoe & then traded it in on a 2011 Tahoe. Are they as we'll designed as the German or Japanese cars? No. GM does seem to be making great strides. Enough so that if one of their vehicles (like the SS) drives the way I like a car to drive, that I'd have no problem buying one.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 214
    In my daily dealings I have had people like the design of the prior M generation than the current one. The same can be said of the prior QX56 and newest design. I was almost going to lease the M37, but multiple issues with the transmission shifting prompted me to stay away. I am still a fan of the M37 and compare it to the E class MB and BMW 5 series.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    For the price it's an alternative, right? Same engines. Leather , parts., larger cheaper, newer -

    The TSX is smaller than the last 2 generations of Accord, I don't think its the same engine either. Price could be in line, but the people shopping an Accord were not cross shopping a TSX. Friends who bought a TSX never once went to a honda dealer and looked at an accord.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2014-chevrolet-ss-sedan-photos-and-info-news

    Just another Aussie built RWD... When Rick and I were in Australia a few years ago being car nutz, we checked out some of the Ford and GM cars, as far as overall design they are different, not just that they are RHD, they do their own thing when it comes to design. Not saying that it was right or wrong, just different The G8 was a good car, however, the dash design was not what Americans liked. Like i said, I hope GM doesn't screw this one up.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    I like the M too, however, for the price I think a 5 series is a better car. The price for a M56 is slightly less (1,500) then a 550i. I'd take the twin turbo V8 over the INfiniti V8, and a 550i can be had with a manuel, something the infiniti lacks. The E class is not a sport sedan unless you look at the AMG model.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    If price is inline - why would they not shop accord vs tsx? Both have a 4 and a 6 engine - both are Hondas and both can be had with leather- both are fwd. To me it doesn't make sense not to cross shop.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
    If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will “replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free.” Very nice.

    owners of “3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011,” then BMW is recalling your vehicle.

    Lots of leased cars coming back to the showrooms- could use this also as a time to seduce people to early return cars, CPO could heat up.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    BMW alert another recall- recall they had a massive recall last year as well.
    If you are among the unlucky 569,000, BMW will notify you next month and tells AP that it will “replace the battery cable connector and secure it for free.” Very nice.

    owners of “3-Series sedans, wagons, convertibles and coupes from the 2007 through 2011 model years, 1-Series coupes and convertibles from 2008 through 2012, or the Z4 sports car from 2009 through 2011,” then BMW is recalling your vehicle.


    Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

    Of the 3 BMW products I currently own, all since new, it's the first recall I've personally had from BMW.

    IMO, some folks make way too much "static" about car recalls. Unless a recall is for something serious (brakes may fail without prior warning, car fuel tank may explode without warning, etc.), I just don't see a recall as a big deal.

    My daughters both drive Nissan products, and both experienced recalls. One was for a potential leaking brake master cylinder inspection, and the other for an incorrectly installed side air bag. In both cases, no defects were found on either car.

    Frankly, as complex as many cars are today, I'm surprised there aren't more recalls.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    edited February 2013
    Well, I'm one of the "unlucky ones", using your terminology...

    Sorry should have added that was a paste job from yahoo news, so not my terminology. I did add the CPO comments on the end.

    Agree recall talk sometimes over done- but with giant recalls come longer lines for those of us that need to go to the dealer for an oil change.
  • mlevinemlevine Posts: 214
    The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them. I agree the AMG package is the true sports package. With me it came down to M37 vs E350 with the tranmission issues swaying me to the MB. I have never been able to get a good deal on any BMW vehicles from the local dealers. I have had the infinitiQ45 loved this vehicle and prior generation QX56 also a great vehicle.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    Sweeny the Honda and Acura have different buyers, this is why someone wouldn't cross shop the Accord and TSX.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    The E sedan comes with sports mode as standard. Front and rear tires diferent sizes which is a pain when replacing them

    That makes it a sport sedan... :confuse: This is why the E class has always done poorly when it's been compared with the mid size sedan of it's price range.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    I would like to know why they have different buyers?

    When I bought (leased) my first new car in 2000, I looked at the v6 accord coupe vs the integra gs-r - the rates at the time very close- integra being stick and was a little sportier won out.

    If I was looking at the ilx or tsx I would look at the accord as well.
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