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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
You stated that DCX actually had an increase in sales for model year 2005, minivans only. Well, if Toyota or Honda gave away their vans as did DCX, Ford and GM then they would be far and away the leader in minivan sales.
As the owner of seven different minivans over the past 22 years I feel more qualified than most here to make quality judgments. Yet, when I gave an HONEST appraisal of a Grand Caravan I owned I was bashed. I am going to post my list from worst to best just to get your juices flowing:
VW Vanagon
Grand Caravan
Nissan Van
Trans Sport
Windstar
Silhouette
Odyssey
I would suspect these are rentals from either Dollar or Thrifty's fleet but still typical of a used DCX mini. Throwing them into the rental fleets diminishes their resale. Also, DCX's reputation for less than stellar quality adds to their being worth little in resale.
JD Powers has all sorts of ratings, I wouldn't be surprise if Honda is ranked high in a few of them though...like first 30 days of ownership, etc.... I've never reviewed the details.
Looks like JD Powers is really close to my office in Troy Michigan though. Be cool to swing by, see what literature they have available.
Two transmissions
A steering rack
Two a/c compressors
And those were just the major items. Fortunately I had a warranty.
My Olds Silhouette, kept almost three years to the day and 52,000 miles, had just about $0 in repairs except for rear brake cylinders worth less than $200.
Which issue of CR is this? The last I know was March 2005 where it was recommended by CR? Maybe that issue is out of date by now?
When people without proof, just opinion start bashing DCX with "always at dealership" or "engine wheezes" or "worst quality" or "turd" or "piece of junk" or "Boy, this is a noisy piece of c**p".
It's good to bash back, not take it, especially when the Ody aren't any better, if anything worst based on recalls, and problems/issues list here and on other sites.
And there are many Ody owners that feel the same about their vehicles! One guy just recently with a $5000 tranny bill (but under warranty thank god!).
Have you ever ridden in, driven or owned a 2005 or 2006 Odyssey? If my suspicions are correct the answer would be NO. I have driven many 2005 and 2006 DCX vans both before and after purchasing my 2006 Odyssey. Basically the DCX vans are ok. They seem free from squeaks and rattles, my main peeve. Compared to the Odyssey they are coarse, noisy and the handling is not even close. Based on my personal experience their reliability and quality stinks.
I have said many times over they years I have posted on various Edmunds boards that we should just make factual comments about the vehicles with which we have first hand knowledge.
Wait to be bashed by the non-facters on here. The idea is to fire a shotgun blast at Odyssey and hope it hits. I am glad they are such rotten shots.
Oh I tought they never broke. :P Why would anyone bring it in???LOL OK this is a DCX vs Honda van forum. Edmunds already has a place setup for the dreaded transmission issues on DCX vans look here!!
link title
or here
http://www.autosafety.org/autodefects/CHRYSLER-ultradrive.htm
Yes Honda's 5 speed had a problem with second gear cooling. They have extended the warrenty to 100K(unlimited years as far as I can tell) miles not bad. Don't think DCX will be doing that/they never did in the past and the early A604 was bad the newer tranny(renamed 41TE to protect the guilty) is much more reliable(since about 1998)but suffers from poor shifting and whining noise!!
That noise are the owners. :P
During geophysics field school, we took some 2004 Dodge Grand Caravans on our trip. At high rpm, the engine sounds like crap (raspy and weak) and the power drops off rapidly. The same thing happens to my mom's Intrepid. They feel anaemic going up hills. I had to try and redline the thing just to pass on the highway, and I only had one other person in the van. It had the 3.3L V6. What a terrible engine. I also averaged 11.4L/100km on the highway (measured at the gas station after a refuel when I started at full at the beginning of the trip, congruent with the trip computer that told me 11.2L/100km). That's abysmal.
The Odyssey I drove, on the other hand, easily revs all the way up to it's 6300rpm redline with ease, and sounds good doing it. It's one fast van and handles almost like a car. If I had to buy a van, I'd get it. I didn't get a chance to drive it far enough to test the fuel economy though.
Isn't DC going back to the 3 year 36K mile warranty for 2006. Must have been spending too much on the longer warranty.
From the way the Grand Caravan drove, I suspect the torque curve would look like an inverted U. I hate how it has NO top end power to speak of. And the stupid transmission won't even let you hit the redline. The Odyssey will let you cross the redline until you hit the rev limiter (like all vehicles SHOULD, because electronic nannies aren't necessary).
As I noted in an earlier post where I used the word "prehistoric", the 3.3 L engine was introduced in 1990 and was an archaic design at that time 15 years ago. I had one in a 1992 Grand Caravan, and no, they are not designed to rev. Maybe that is why some DC owners berate the Odyssey for having to rev the Honda engine high to get to the torque and HP max. Their experience is that high RPM is bad. If you drive the Honda you realize that the engine revs happily as it is designed to. I know that I was always concerned about how fast the engine was going in my Grand Caravan. This is not something that I worry about in my Odyssey. Also note that most DC vans come with the 3.3 L engine not the 3.8 L engine, while all Odysseys come with the 3.5 L engine.
Rumor has it that the next generation of DC vans will have a significantly more powerful engine and a 5 speed auto. Why would they do that if there is nothing wrong with the current version and what will that do to the already abysmal resale values of this generation vans?
link title
In my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of auto enthusiasts, Honda still makes the smoothest, nicest revving engines in the world. The power output is decent too (255hp in the 05 Odyssey). That van is capable of 0-60 in 7.8s. That's extremely fast for a van. Plus the fact that the J-series engine blocks don't weigh a lot either.
The 3.8L engine available in the Caravans might be stronger than the 3.3L, but it's still CRUDE revving and unrefined. Plus that huge displacement weighs more and offsets the handling even worse.
DCX would be smart to make the 3.8L V-6 the base V-6 in the Grand Caravan, the 3.3L V-6 the standard in the swb Caravan, and offer the 3.5L out of the Pacifica/300M/300 cars that offers 250 hp. That would be a real competitor.
I think that DC needs to junk the 3.3 and 3.8 L engines. The 3.2 or 3.5 should be the base engine. That would certainly help DC to even things up with regards to power. But, what will happen to the mileage then? My wife has a 2005 Pacifica with the 3.5 L engine and gets 15 mpg in town. I have a 1999 Intrepid with the 3.2 L engine and get 20-22 mpg in town. Notice the Intrepid is significantly lighter than the minivans while the Pacifica is heavier with AWD. However, both are 4 speed autos which DC also need to improve. I am sure that using the 3.5 L engine in the DC mini vans will hurt the mileage which is the wrong direction to go at this time, especially to compete with the Honda VCM system. Don't forget, the Odyssey is the heaviest, fastest most powerful minivan with the best handling and ALSO gets the best mileage.
I gave first hand experience with my 3 Caravans, and my friends. It is every bit as valid as your claims! I also can see the first hand experience of Ody owner on here, and the Ody is far from perfection, just the FACT that 2006 owners are still having some of the same issues as the 2005s! I can also claim as fact 4 recalls.
Canadian review from who or what? That certainly carries a lot of credibility with me!
I have driven many an Odys, some on 4-5 hour trips up to northern MI with Visteon engineers to test and compare DVD systems. I also seriously considered an 2005 Ody when shopping a year ago, visiting almost every Honda dealer in the Detroit Metro area, as to not bug one too many times. I was the FIRST customer at Bloomfield Honda to drive a 2005, hours after coming off the truck! Having driven them back to back, the DCX vans are definitely quieter and ride smoother than Honda. Your suspicions are WRONG!
All my comments are factual and based on first hand knowledge and experience!
What makes you a "facter"?? Personal experience?
The 06s are rated at 244hp, the 05s might have been rated at 255hp but the reality is they should have been 244hp also. Now that SAE has standardized test methods, and cut out the fudge factor that many Japanese manufacturers used to inflate hp ratings, consumers get the facts and win.
Capable of 0 - 60 in 7.8s???? How? Accelerating down hill? CR puts it at 8.6
BTW - The DGC weighs 100lbs less than an Ody and has almost identical front/rear weight distribution. Part of the reason the DGC handles "worse" is due to Chrysler engineering going for smoother quieter ride over handling via stiff suspension as the Ody.
And weren't you commenting on how easy it was to remove the seats a few weeks back? Motorweek says "The second row seats are still heavy and cumbersome to remove by one person."
Well, considering the previous generation Ody did 0-60 in the mid-sevens (see minivan comparo 2004 Car and Driver), I'd say 7.8 is doable! In the same test, the DGC came in dead last acceleration-wise (9.6), and 4th, only ahead of the Freestar.
As all pushrods tend to do, they produce more low end torque at lower revs and a flat curve vs. higher reving engines. DCX's ancient pushrod and solid axle rear are what gives it superior towing over other minivans.
I'll let the automotive engineers make decisions like rev limiters or stability controls or other electronic nannies. We're talking MINIVANs here, not formula one racing - unless you're a exit ramp racing numbnut.
I know some of these experts personally at C&D (well Frank Markus at Motortrends now), I'd bank on CR data any day with their methods over gearheads.
About 22 overall. I know that it is unreasonable to believe you will get EPA numbers on almost any car!! But of course you have to put unfacts in your post. If anyone wants to see what I've put in here as to what I'm getting MPG wise just do a search( socalawd mpg) just more sour grapes!!
And weren't you commenting on how easy it was to remove the seats a few weeks back? Motorweek says "The second row seats are still heavy and cumbersome to remove by one person."
It's not really hard cumbersome for someone who is of aveage strength and size, maybe they are thinking about small women and salesmen.
However, my son's 2001 Odd EX is NOT any quicker than my 02 T&C. The 2001 Odd EX is also NOT as quiet as my 02 T&C. The 2001 Odd EX lacks many nice comfort and convenience features of my low end T&C LX...but the Odd EX does have the Magic Seat.
Another driver who enjoys a vheicle with great mechanical performance!
These are the performance qualities that allow me to play with the other minvans(especially DGCs)along curvy off-ramps as well as in the straight roads where you can really wind the engine up to its capable high RPM with accompanying lovely melodious tone. That's what I meant by the others left behind smelling hot air!
Sebring95 gets his similar enjoyment up that steep ramp and merging into trafic!
I think cars vary a little from each other I understand why you hate these gearheads. The information isn't what you want to hear!! Personally I wouldn't bank on information about Honda's from a unknown source who dosen't like Honda products!! Go with the gearheads until the person telling you it's differant can produce more than just a attempt to give a blackeye to a car without even having first hand experience. Dude one time I read this post and this guy said @#$^^&^&^$##!@! thats real reliable information!! Your a engineer right!! Of course all the DCX guys say they are it quite comicial. One of them said well if VSC works then there sould be no accidents like its a forcefield or something. Well I know I'm gonna get flamed so up deflector shields!!! :P
"Well, considering the previous generation Ody did 0-60 in the mid-sevens (see minivan comparo 2004 Car and Driver), I'd say 7.8 is doable! In the same test, the DGC came in dead last acceleration-wise (9.6), and 4th, only ahead of the Freestar. "
For those who are aware, it is a known fact that CR does not test vehicles with the vigor that the C & D folks do. The C & D folks are more "race track" inclined with more lead feet, and test vehicles with more vigor to their extreme limits. CR is a tamer and it shows in consistent slower acceleration times for ALL vehicle types/models tested compared to the identical vehicles tested by C & D or other pure car magazines.
Removing/folding middle row seats are a non-issue for me. The back seat in my new Odyssey has come down a few times in just a release of the latch.
The more interesting comparison will be with the soon to be released Kia (and, in the Spring, Hyundai Entourage)Sedona. I can see BM-X in the distance exhaust of the other three.
Removing/folding middle row seats are a non-issue for me. The back seat in my new Odyssey has come down a few times in just a release of the latch.
For a people mover, you couldn't have gotten a better choice than the Ody. It's a perfect van for that, plus beautiful inside.
But I got rid of a truck to buy my Dodge GC. I found out the van holds more, because you can stack things higher. Plus it makes a great family van when just hauling kids and all there stuff. Two very nice things about the Dodge/Chrysler mini vans even if you never have to fold the seats down, is the two very large bins in the floor where the middle seats fold. They are perfect for holding all kinds of toys, sporting equipment, tools, blankets and even a small television that you can take out and play for the kids on trips. There is practically nothing you can't hide in these bins and keep them out of view or to mess up your van. Everything is nicely covered and out of sight.
While I bought the van mostly because I could fold the second and third row seats into the floor and haul stuff. I have only had to do that three times in the year I've owned it. But I have discovered that folding the one passenger middle row seat most of the time really helps getting my three grand kids in and out of the van fast and also gives the dog someplace to sit besides on the seats. It seems much roomier inside with that one seat folded and still gives me storage space in the other bin.
If I were to buy a mini van just to haul people, the Ody would be an excellent choice. But the way I use my van, the Dodge/Chrysler is the only choice for me.
"Well, considering the previous generation Ody did 0-60 in the mid-sevens (see minivan comparo 2004 Car and Driver), I'd say 7.8 is doable! In the same test, the DGC came in dead last acceleration-wise (9.6), and 4th overall, only ahead of the Freestar."
For those who are aware, it is a known fact that CR does not test vehicles with the vigor that the C & D folks do. The C & D folks are more "race track" inclined with more lead feet, and test vehicles with more vigor to their extreme limits. CR is a tamer and it shows in consistent slower acceleration times for ALL vehicle types/models tested compared to the identical vehicles tested by C & D or other pure car magazines.
Yes, this is very true, which is why i listed both times so they could be shown as relative. It wouldnt be fair to compare a Consumer Reports number to a Car and Driver number, and I only subscribe to Car and Driver, which is why I used numbers from there instead.
Removing/folding middle row seats are a non-issue for me. The back seat in my new Odyssey has come down a few times in just a release of the latch."
EXACTLY the same experience for me! I cannot remember when I last had to remove my Ody's middle row seat.
I don't believe DCX's 3.5L is that much better than the 3.8L for this vehicle. I also don't think the Ody's 3.5L is that great. Same 240lb-ft of torque for the 3.8L and Honda 3.5L. Horsepower is lower, but that is related to torque and engine speed. At most minivan driver's usable engine speeds (below 3k, maybe 4k rpm for "spirited driving) the Ody and 3.8L DCX motor have about the same power (torque). Honda's acceleration advantage is the extra cog in the transmission.
DCX's 3.5L has 10 more lb-ft, but breathes better at high engine speeds (45hp) than the 3.8L. I had a Pacifica 3.5L for 12k miles and now the T&C w/ 3.8L and 10k miles. Very similar power <4krpm. And the 3.5L recommends mid-grade fuel for that power rating compared to the 3.8L's 87 octane. So, how often are minivan drivers driving over 4000rpm to notice the power differences? My guess, <1% of the time for all drivers. So, peak horsepower comparisons are quite irrelevent for this discussion IMO. I can't imagine spending $xxxx more on an Ody with less torque in my daily driving.
I'm a driver too. I autocrossed in college and a little afterwards. I owned an SVT Contour, IS300 stick, and a couple first gen RX-7's, all well balanced and fun to drive. Our T&C Touring is more nimble than I was expecting after putting the recommended 36psi in the tires. They squeal early, but still grip. I drive smoothly but quickly according to some passengers. It is rare that I can reach any kind of limits in our minivan in either my 35 mile each way commute or after hours with my 6 month old child inside.