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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Have you thought about the Hyundai Genesis? It's probably in same price point as the LS or C but will give you GS/5/E amenities.

    Stop telling people about the Genesis!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Stop telling people about the Genesis!

    Did I do something wrong? I can't recall suggesting the Genesis over and over....

    :confuse:

    Or am I missing a joke?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Already have one. Need a sedan that can sit 5 comfortably. Currently have a Camry and it does the job well.

    So define comfortably. Having 3 kids in the back wont last long in the comfort department, even if you buy a LS, so maybe looking at a 7 passenger SUV is your best option.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    I like stuff. I like equipment. It's just not everything. I was always complaining about Subaru witholding some high end options from their WRX line (e.g. HID lights were not available, except STI for three generations). BMW forces people to buy some nice or even basic stuff for extra charge. Split fold-down seats, which is my pet peeve, was not standard on 328/335 sedan until this year. It is still not standard on 320i. That is purely ridiculous. However, just because Kia has more standard equipment than BMW, it is not automatically "more car". Moreover, BMW seems to be getting away with their pricing practice.

    I also agree with somebody's comment that F30 is a final goodbye kiss to the enthusiasts and final embracement of "badge shopping". It was present already in E9x version (as much as it pains me to say), I think E3x was the pinnacle of BMWs enthusiast sedan engineering. From there it got progressively softer and bigger.

    I think their hand was partially forced by nanny states, both here and across the Ocean (gas mileage limits, safety standards, etc.). I think they also decided that they can afford more decisive "badge" move simply because the enthusiasts have nowhere else to go. So they may lose a few, but they gain all those hords coming to the showroom and saying "it's a nice car, but legroom is too small, suspension too hard, gas mileage too low". Those people would not know cornering from corner ring. They think Ford Expedition was fun to drive. However, they are majority, so BMW simply obligued. :cry:

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    the one thing that the wagon won't have happens to be the key issue. Back seat width.

    So what sedan can he buy that will be wide enough to handle two booster and a kid in the middle (I would hate to be that middle kid), I would assume that when the whole family goes out together, they take the mini van and hot the sedan...
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    2013 Avalon...2014 Impala...the current "Big" cars...maybe the new CTS in this ELLPS category.

    I would just go buy the 'smaller' booster seats and get the car I want :) But I understand wanting to 'tame the beasts' in the back seat...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130418/AUTO0103/304180390/1121/auto01/New-C- hevy-Cruze-diesel-gets-46-mpg-on-highway

    I know this is going to send some people into orbit, but I figured that this is the start of the diesel invasion. The interesting thing is, as the diesel engine breaks in, MPG will increase, so in theory higher MPG is not out of the question.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I would happily buy a diesel economy car, luxury car, utility vehicle, etc. but not a sports car. Like an automatic transmission, having a 4K redline just sucks fun out of the driving experience.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    edited April 2013
    If BMW puts this motor in a 5-series & sells it here
    [ for a reasonable price ]
    I would be interested....
    'Featuring the newly developed tri-turbo 3.0-liter six-cylinder in-line diesel engine, the M550d is rated at 381 HP (280 kW / 375 bhp) between 4,000 - 4,400 rpm. But the real eye-popper is the maximum torque figure of 740 Nm (546 lb-ft) available at a relatively low 2,000 - 3,000 rpm. Redline is 5,400 rpm.

    The result is a 0-100 km/h time of 4.7 seconds making it possibly the fastest diesel sedan on the market. Check out the video to see the speedo/tachometer shot of Gebhardt's 0-250 km/h (155 mph) test.

    Starting price in Germany for the M550d xDrive is 80,800 euro. Compared to the BMW M5 which starts at 102,700 euro, the M550d could be a viable alternative for those looking for a little more value and efficiency (6.3L/100km ; 44.8 mpg imp) as well as a less aggressive super sedan image.'
    - http://www.worldcarfans.com/112022141431/bmw-m550d-xdrive-0-250-kmh-test-by-spor- - t-auto

    - Ray
    Would NOT be an 'Entry Level' Sedan....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Ditto. I think it sucks much more than modern automatics (they made huge progress).

    Notice where diesel was used in racing - 24 hr endurance. Surely not for its dynamic properties, acceleration, speed. It was plain and simple mathematics - reduce number of pitstops and you can go slower on the course. So they did.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    edited April 2013
    Notice where diesel was used in racing - 24 hr endurance. Surely not for its dynamic properties, acceleration, speed. It was plain and simple mathematics - reduce number of pitstops and you can go slower on the course. So they did.

    The old saying is Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday comes to mind. Audi's R10 and now R15 are prime examples of this, these cars have dominated the La MAns series races, showcasing the TDI endurance helps in the showroom.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Damn you Ray, you beat me to it, I know that BMW has teased us with photos of the 550d, I just don't see BMW bring it over, just yet. I would say that having a car that is capable of some serious fun and still get descent MPG is a draw for some, but in the price point of the 550d, not many would be buying it because of it's MPG. I would assume people who bought it on the used car lot would understand the benefits of the MPG as well as the statement BMW is making with the car.

    Since GM was the first to get their MPG back from the EPA on the diesel Cruze, it will be interesting to see what the Mazda 6 and the BMW will get. In the currently edition of Autoweek, they talk about the total percentage of passenger cars sold in the US last year that were diesel cars, 2.6% which if you look at it, this is only VW (this includes Audi) and MB isn't bad, now starting in 2014 MY, add two more manufactures. Autoweek predicts that in 10 years the total to be 15%, a small number, but still a significant increase. Only time will tell.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    15% market share would be enormous growth in the segment - 500%+! And I would not call it "small" at all. That is significant marketshare, it would mean diesels are everywhere, offered by every manufacturer. One out of 7 vehicles, from Spark to Suburban, from Carrera to Ram 1500. It is certainly attainable, mostly by having diesel engines in pickups, SUVs and even family wagons/crossovers.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • buyerhelpbuyerhelp Member Posts: 6
    I am looking for an entry level luxury sedan that is atleast as big as Camry to hold 5 adults comfortably. Looking for something under $50 - $55K. I know this is a performance forum, but that is not an important criteria for me. Which Sedans will fit that category?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Go to page 796 and start reading at post #15902. :)
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited April 2013
    In addition to following fedlawman's direction, I'd also look at....

    -Audi A6 2.0....It has the less expensive turbo 4 cyl (and less performance than the supercharged 3.0 6 cyl, and a great engine), is a larger lux car, and offers some nice handling charateristics.

    -Audi A4....same as above only a little smaller.

    -Acura TL SH AWD w/Tech package.....very nice lux performance car, totally loaded up, and a screaming bargain right now (my Sister just bought one)

    -Lexus ES 350...should be able to sneak in just under $50K

    -While I don't know much about them, Volvo S60 would probably fit the bill, too

    -BMW 328i/335i.....might be a little too small, but look at them and see if they work

    Good luck and let us know how the car shopping is going.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I have a 2013 Volvo S60 T5 FWD. A great car - fun to drive, easy on gas, very comfortable front seats BUT, I don't think 2 adults would be comfortable in that back seat for any length of time. As for 3 adults, forget about it!!
  • buyerhelpbuyerhelp Member Posts: 6
    I looked at BMW 3 series and they are very small. Will not work. Same thing for Audi A4. I also looked at Acura TL and Lexus ES 350, they still seem a little smaller than Camry (is that correct?, hard to tell). Is Audi A6 bigger than TL and ES?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    ES350 is not smaller than Camry, it should be larger. A6 is bigger, also much more expensive.

    I would not call 3-series or A4 "very small". Surely too small for your needs (which is fair), but if 328 is "very small" than there is no word in English language to describe almost half of car models in the market.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • buyerhelpbuyerhelp Member Posts: 6
    Good to know that ES350 is not smaller than Camry. A6 looks good too. Need to actually go and look at both of these now. In terms of price, looks like A6 will come out about 4K more than ES350 (have to add in the options for ES350 since not a whole lot standard). So for 4K more, is A6 the better Sedan?
    Also, I know in the long run A6 is going to be more expensive in terms of maintenance.

    Should not have used "very small". More like relatively small.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Are you sure A6 is only 4 grand more? There are plenty of options there, too and they'd drive up the price with breath taking speed. I always thought Lexus was much better in standard content than German brands. Not as good as Acura, but still - especially ES, I thought was well equipped out of the gates. Things change, I guess.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    You're knocking on the door of $50K MSRP for an A6 2.0 Premium Plus auto. You won't get the fancy stereo, but you will get Nav for that price (less a couple thousand for discount).

    You have to add some costly packages to the ES350 to hit the Audi level.

    I still think the A6 is bigger, but haven't been in an ES in a while.

    I do think the TL would be similar in size to the ES, though.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • buyerhelpbuyerhelp Member Posts: 6
    the 2.0 CVT A6 fully loaded comes to be 50K MSRP and fully loaded ES350 (luxury package) comes to be around 46K MSRP. So it is a 4K difference. I am more worried about the maintenance cost for Audi since I plan to keep the car for long time (10 - 15 years).
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    If it came to those two cars, I'd probably get Lexus - 2.0 CVT Audi would be least interesting vehicle to me. Audi without quattro is to me like decaf or non-alcoholic beer. Not to mention it probably is pretty stripped for the class. Doesn't mean completely stripped, just I suspect if you wanted same equipment as on ES, you'd have to pay more than $50K. The only advantage is probably size, but how would that four-cylinder engine perform on such large and heavy car? ES350 would feel like a rocket in comparison. But if that's not really important to you (I can easily imagine relatively underpowered car being enough for majority of drivers) than you may like Audi.

    I would also be concerned about long term maintenance. I think Audi still sells moderately priced maintenance package for first few years, but it is definitely more risky beyond warranty period than ES. I don't think it would "fall apart", but you'd do yourself a favor by having some decent fund for the car. BTW, my dad has now six (or maybe more) years old A4 1.9 TDI (in Europe) and the car is working just fine. He's had it for a number of years now. Once a while something pops up, but it is not backbreaking - so far, anyway. It's not exact comparison (there are somewhat different practices and pricing schemes over there vs. US), just one data point.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    dino...Audi's ext warranties and maintenance plans are indeed more sanely priced than many. That's damning them with faint praise, however. As none of those plans are worth what the car companies charge for them, given the dealers and manufacturers get to use a large chunk of your change basically for free, over a period of years.

    An A6 2.0 isn't bad. That little 4 cyl turbo is torquey. It's not the burner the supercharged 3.0 is. It would work for the OP's intended use.

    I've never owned a Lexus. I have a couple of neighbors that do. While they love being coddled by the dealership, they don't like the prices they pay for maintenance and repair. Getting a 3rd party mechanic that you trust would probably help.

    Just thinking out loud, if the OP wants a bigger vehicle that fits 3 in the back, an Acura MDX, or Lexus RX, or an Infiniti JX would probably be the better fit. I don't think many cars in his price range are going to be big enough for 3 passengers in the rear (along with car seats :surprise: ).

    I have an independent mechanic I use once my vehicles are out of warranty. He has a great philosophy. If you're buying a car to last you 5-10 years, by a Japanese brand. If you're buying a car for 3 years, buy German. If you want something cheap to maintain and repair, buy American.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    How about a 2013 Avalon? I had a 2005 and it was a great car with a limo-like back seat. I'm told the new one handles better, although some have said the ride is harsh. I know that it's not considered "entry luxury" but it can be loaded up with lots of advanced tech features. It might be worth a look.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Also, outside the box is the Cadillac XTS. Again, not an entry level luxury sedan but a large sedan. They start at 45 and go up from there. So, it depends on how many gadgets you want.

    To bring the discussion back, this morning there was a review of the ATS in the local paper. Basically, the writer said it was average with a really small backseat.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/auto-news/drivers-seat-2013-cadilla- c-ats-offers-a-little-bit-of-luxury-684769/
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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    just watched the latest episode of Motorweek (On Velocity! And i remember when it was on PBS).

    anyway, the did a ELLPS comparo (along with cars.com). only criteria, a 46K sticker cap.

    tested the BMW 328, C250, Audi A4, Caddy ATS, Acura TL (SH-AWD) and Volvo S60 (T5 AWD).

    anyway, they only gave the top 3 finishers (but listed 0-60 for each) and did a quick recap (full details are supposed to be online).

    No big surprise, but the 328 finished 1st (and had lowest 0-60). Possibly surprising, the Volvo finished a strong 2nd. Did very well overall, including better than expected on the track, and quick too. The Acura finished 3rd.

    The S60 is a really nice, and well rounded car, that often gets overlooked. Not the most athletic maybe, but does surprisingly well in spirited driving. And has great seats!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited April 2013
    stickguy...saw that.

    Even more surprising, the much ballyhooed and brand new Caddy ATS, Mercedes C class and the Audi A4 didn't even crack into the top 3.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    A 328 is quicker to 60 than the sh-awd?
    It must be a rwd stick.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    billy...can't remember the 0-60 times, nor the configurations. I'd be hard pressed to believe that a 4 cyl (albeit turbo) would outperform the OHC 6 in the TL, with SH-AWD.

    I've driven both.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited April 2013
    Here are the numbers:

    http://www.cars.com/crp/buyingGuides/images/46k_WhatYouGet.pdf

    We're talking 4/10th of a second between the BMW and the TL. The Volvo was less than 2/10th behind the BMW and that's with AWD.

    I think in that comparison, there's no bad choice. I found it interesting that the family subjective scores had the 1, 2, 3 as:

    Volvo 125 pts
    ATS 123 pts
    BMW 114 pts.

    Now that excludes the pure performance numbers. In the real world 0-60 and 1/4 mile times aren't the stuff that most buyers consider - and the $7K one would save with the Volvo....
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    I watched Motor Week tested the TL at 5.5 to 60 and now they are sayin 7 plus- those guys are not trustworthy.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Billy....my sister just bought a TL SH AWD Advance. 5.5 secs sounds about right on the 0-60. Motor Week is off in their estimate. Don't know why...maybe a misprint? Or, they were testing the TL on a wet/oily track? And the rest were tested on a dry track?

    In either event, that TL test is way off.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    they tested them all at the same time/place. Even showed clips of the runs. I don't think they do it like say car and driver (more like CR?). But for whatever reason, the TL was not that fast.

    and as other have noted, even at that # the TL is way faster than anyone really "needs" or is likely to ever use.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    One thing I note is that a lot of the cars mentioned are smaller euro-sedans. And while this is fine, if you want a large car, you're looking at a Big Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, or BMW. Others do make similar cars, but they tend to be overpriced or far more sport than luxury.

    A quick run - down:
    Acura. Pretty much the TL. It's basically a Japanese Buick Park Avenue. That's not a bad thing, as the Park Avenue was a fine car with nice seats, acceptable features, and a very nice and soft ride. That it cost GM almost 35K to make each one was a whole other story.

    Lexus. Pretty much the ES here, since it is based on the Camry platform. It's a clone of the TL, pretty much, aside from styling. Both are excellent highway cruisers and will last a very long time. There also is the Avalon, which is a nice choice a well.

    Volvo is a bit more interesting. They have always driven markedly better than their American or Japanese counterparts. A little bit of sport to go with the luxury. The S80 is a great vehicle and I'd honestly rather be driving one instead of yet another faceless jellybean (ie - Acura or Lexus).

    On to Mercedes. Their E class is a bit smaller than you'd probably like. It's also as it has always been, a mediocre in-between car. The Problem is also that unless you're looking at CPO, you're going to be out of your price-range. That said, a 2 or 3 year old S class might be worth contemplating if you like Mercedes. Something that just came off of an executive lease.

    Of the models to be looking at, the S350 Bluetec is the one to consider. It gets 21/31 mpg (better than the hybrid S class, even), and while it isn't a tire-smoking monster like the S550 is, it's not slow, either. Would I personally buy a used S over a brand new Lexus? In a heartbeat.
    *note - wait until this fall of course, as depreciation will help you out. Currently, CPO 2012 S350s run around $75K. Expect that to be $60K this fall. A bit over your budget, but it's a stunning option that nobody would fault you for choosing.

    BMW? It's pretty much the 5 series. You simply can't go wrong with one.

    Audi is the A6. It's pretty much trying to be a 5 series clone. I'd call this the same as the Japanese rivalry between Lexus and Acura.

    And, lastly, we have the underdog, Cadillac. Now, don't count them out immediately. They hit a home run with the CTS and it's only real fault is that the size was wrong. It simply can't fit more than four adults comfortably. Which it does as well as anything from Europe, I might add. And it handles great as well. It also has a much better GPS system than anything Mercedes or BMW has. The Mercedes GPS is sometimes so bad that you'd really be better off with your cell phone in a holder.

    So GM fixed that with an extended wheelbase version, the XTS. Of note as well is the magnetic ride suspension, which is usually only found in exotic cars. The thing drives and rides as well as a S class. But it's not $100K. Not even close. It's my personal favorite of the list because it's so inexpensive, especially if you can find a CPO/lease return one. (these usually have 3 or 5K miles on them and are essentially new, except that someone else ate the initial depreciation, taxes, and registration. Their credit woes are your gain.

    http://www.tracymotors.com/VehicleDetails/certified-2013-Cadillac-XTS-3.6L_V6_FW- D-Plymouth-MA/1954964653
    A typical example.

    Note - this is a smart thing to do with any new car, actually.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    edited April 2013
    "And while this is fine, if you want a large car,"

    You could throw the Acura RLX in the mix too. Not as large as the big Euro cats, but it is a mid-size sedan with the same 102 cu. ft. as the Buick LaCrosse and only one cu. ft larger than the Camry.

    The RLX's base price is around $48K but add the usual luxury features expected in a car of such luxury pretensions and that sticker climbs to $60K in a hurry. Reasonably equipped you probably could drive one home for $55K. But who would want to anyway? The RLX's styling is pitiful and downright dowdy. Not even a name change back to the Legend will move this metal.

    Oops, I take that back in February Acura sold 16 and March 336. If my math is right, that is a 2000% increase...but who is counting.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    stick....I get what you're saying.

    I've driven quite a few of the recent versions of the TL. The 1.5 sec 0-60 time delta between the TL SH AWD and my S4 (according to Motor Week) is significant. And, not one that I've ever experienced. I can believe a .5 sec delta (with the S4 being faster). I can't believe the 1.5 sec delta Motor Week reported, however.

    Something's not right with this Motor Week report...especially given their previous tests results on the TL.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    edited April 2013
    "Lexus. Pretty much the ES here, since it is based on the Camry platform."

    Nah ah, now based on the Avalon's

    re: Cadillac XTS: "The thing drives and rides as well as a S class."

    Highly disagree with that statement.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    edited April 2013
    Acura. Pretty much the TL. It's basically a Japanese Buick Park Avenue
    I've never driven a TL and thought it was a Park Avenue...the early ones felt like fancy Accords (with much less headroom), but the current generation is a distinctive product; especially the SHAWD.

    Lexus. Pretty much the ES here, since it is based on the Camry platform
    Based on the Avalon

    On to Mercedes. Their E class is a bit smaller than you'd probably like
    Haven't driven the latest...they never felt small to me. Even when they were :)

    Audi is the A6. It's pretty much trying to be a 5 series clone
    I don't see that at all. If anything I see the A6 as surpassing the 5 series in all aspects; styling/drying dynamics/price...

    And, lastly, we have the underdog, Cadillac. Now, don't count them out immediately.
    I haven't driven the latest, but the previous was very impressive. I decided against it, but it was still a nice ride. The new one looks to have substantial improvements.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    IVAN...agree with your assessments.

    Took another ride in an ATS (this time in my neighbor's new Caddy). It's a 2.0 turbo. If GM could do something to make that engine a lot smoother, and not so corse, they'd go a long way to getting more people to pony up for the car.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I drove my brother-in-laws new E class last week. It seemed plenty big to me. I even sat in the back for a short time. Of course, the ride was quiet & smooth with plenty of power. But, the "leather" seats felt plastic like and, most surprisingly, the steering felt on the over assisted side. Which made me wonder, can the steering type be selected by the driver? Maybe it was selected to the most assisted position.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    "A quick run - down:
    Acura. Pretty much the TL. It's basically a Japanese Buick Park Avenue. That's not a bad thing, as the Park Avenue was a fine car with nice seats, acceptable features, and a very nice and soft ride. That it cost GM almost 35K to make each one was a whole other story.

    Please let readers know that you refering to the base car and not the SH-AWD.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, sport suspension and tires, plus a massively heavy AWD system that 90% of people will never benefit from are a whole other animal. The base model is, styling aside, a big, well built FWD car that drives a lot like a Park Avenue Ultra did. The better GM cars didn't have a problem with handling if you got the touring or sport package.

    As for the Audi, yes, I personally think that the A6 is better than the 5, but if I said that at first, I'd have had fifty BMW fanboys spamming me with hate-mail. But it's small, really if you're coming from a normal family sedan. Any of these will feel and drive superbly.

    The differences between the Avalon and the Camry are kind of like the XTS and the CTS. They share enough DNA to be hard to guess what comes from what. Either way, the ES is a good big car that is great for long drives. My only gripe is that Honda and Toyota overprice their cars by about 10-20%. And they never have meaningful incentives, either. That I can actually get a better deal at the end of a year on a Mercedes is telling.

    Oh, I'd like to add one more car, just for fun. The Lincoln MKS. It's basically the new version of the Towncar, and it is a long, long overdue update at that. Of note is how it will fit five large male adults with winter coats on inside it in comfort. Like the GM, you get a lot of car for your money compared to the Japanese and European brands.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The differences between the Avalon and the Camry are kind of like the XTS and the CTS. They share enough DNA to be hard to guess what comes from what.

    You realize that the CTS and XTS have little in common other than styling?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    pletko...I see where you're coming from. Those old Buick Park Aves with the handling package and supercharged V6 motors were pretty good cars. Base TL, while still a better handling car and a better performing car...I could see a comparison made.

    Now, TL SH AWD is really a different animal. I don't know that anyone drives any car to its true capabilities. That said, when I had my TL SH AWD, I know the handling benefits could be felt every day....around corners, better steering feel, confidence on twisting roads. None of that touches it's prowess in wet/snowy weather (which was excellent).

    I agree with you on the A6 vs the BMW 5 series. For the money, I'd choose the A6 (3.0) all day, every day. It's better car to drive. And, the tech that comes with that level of car is better than the 5. The A6 handles better, rides better, too. Plus, it will come in a few thousand under the 5 series equipped like for like.

    Can't comment on the big Caddy. The only ones I've had any seat time in are the CTS and the ATS....neither of which would be on my short list if I were plunking down my own money. Strong rumors around that the ATS is falling short of GM's sales expectations and they're throwing trunk money at it.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    How about the Engine and Transmission, I'm sure there are some software differences but I'm sure there are more common connections between the two cars then you think
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