Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Stop telling people about the Genesis!
Did I do something wrong? I can't recall suggesting the Genesis over and over....
:confuse:
Or am I missing a joke?
So define comfortably. Having 3 kids in the back wont last long in the comfort department, even if you buy a LS, so maybe looking at a 7 passenger SUV is your best option.
I also agree with somebody's comment that F30 is a final goodbye kiss to the enthusiasts and final embracement of "badge shopping". It was present already in E9x version (as much as it pains me to say), I think E3x was the pinnacle of BMWs enthusiast sedan engineering. From there it got progressively softer and bigger.
I think their hand was partially forced by nanny states, both here and across the Ocean (gas mileage limits, safety standards, etc.). I think they also decided that they can afford more decisive "badge" move simply because the enthusiasts have nowhere else to go. So they may lose a few, but they gain all those hords coming to the showroom and saying "it's a nice car, but legroom is too small, suspension too hard, gas mileage too low". Those people would not know cornering from corner ring. They think Ford Expedition was fun to drive. However, they are majority, so BMW simply obligued.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
So what sedan can he buy that will be wide enough to handle two booster and a kid in the middle (I would hate to be that middle kid), I would assume that when the whole family goes out together, they take the mini van and hot the sedan...
I would just go buy the 'smaller' booster seats and get the car I want But I understand wanting to 'tame the beasts' in the back seat...
I know this is going to send some people into orbit, but I figured that this is the start of the diesel invasion. The interesting thing is, as the diesel engine breaks in, MPG will increase, so in theory higher MPG is not out of the question.
[ for a reasonable price ]
I would be interested....
'Featuring the newly developed tri-turbo 3.0-liter six-cylinder in-line diesel engine, the M550d is rated at 381 HP (280 kW / 375 bhp) between 4,000 - 4,400 rpm. But the real eye-popper is the maximum torque figure of 740 Nm (546 lb-ft) available at a relatively low 2,000 - 3,000 rpm. Redline is 5,400 rpm.
The result is a 0-100 km/h time of 4.7 seconds making it possibly the fastest diesel sedan on the market. Check out the video to see the speedo/tachometer shot of Gebhardt's 0-250 km/h (155 mph) test.
Starting price in Germany for the M550d xDrive is 80,800 euro. Compared to the BMW M5 which starts at 102,700 euro, the M550d could be a viable alternative for those looking for a little more value and efficiency (6.3L/100km ; 44.8 mpg imp) as well as a less aggressive super sedan image.'
- http://www.worldcarfans.com/112022141431/bmw-m550d-xdrive-0-250-kmh-test-by-spor- - t-auto
- Ray
Would NOT be an 'Entry Level' Sedan....
Notice where diesel was used in racing - 24 hr endurance. Surely not for its dynamic properties, acceleration, speed. It was plain and simple mathematics - reduce number of pitstops and you can go slower on the course. So they did.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The old saying is Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday comes to mind. Audi's R10 and now R15 are prime examples of this, these cars have dominated the La MAns series races, showcasing the TDI endurance helps in the showroom.
Since GM was the first to get their MPG back from the EPA on the diesel Cruze, it will be interesting to see what the Mazda 6 and the BMW will get. In the currently edition of Autoweek, they talk about the total percentage of passenger cars sold in the US last year that were diesel cars, 2.6% which if you look at it, this is only VW (this includes Audi) and MB isn't bad, now starting in 2014 MY, add two more manufactures. Autoweek predicts that in 10 years the total to be 15%, a small number, but still a significant increase. Only time will tell.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-Audi A6 2.0....It has the less expensive turbo 4 cyl (and less performance than the supercharged 3.0 6 cyl, and a great engine), is a larger lux car, and offers some nice handling charateristics.
-Audi A4....same as above only a little smaller.
-Acura TL SH AWD w/Tech package.....very nice lux performance car, totally loaded up, and a screaming bargain right now (my Sister just bought one)
-Lexus ES 350...should be able to sneak in just under $50K
-While I don't know much about them, Volvo S60 would probably fit the bill, too
-BMW 328i/335i.....might be a little too small, but look at them and see if they work
Good luck and let us know how the car shopping is going.
I would not call 3-series or A4 "very small". Surely too small for your needs (which is fair), but if 328 is "very small" than there is no word in English language to describe almost half of car models in the market.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Also, I know in the long run A6 is going to be more expensive in terms of maintenance.
Should not have used "very small". More like relatively small.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You have to add some costly packages to the ES350 to hit the Audi level.
I still think the A6 is bigger, but haven't been in an ES in a while.
I do think the TL would be similar in size to the ES, though.
I would also be concerned about long term maintenance. I think Audi still sells moderately priced maintenance package for first few years, but it is definitely more risky beyond warranty period than ES. I don't think it would "fall apart", but you'd do yourself a favor by having some decent fund for the car. BTW, my dad has now six (or maybe more) years old A4 1.9 TDI (in Europe) and the car is working just fine. He's had it for a number of years now. Once a while something pops up, but it is not backbreaking - so far, anyway. It's not exact comparison (there are somewhat different practices and pricing schemes over there vs. US), just one data point.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
An A6 2.0 isn't bad. That little 4 cyl turbo is torquey. It's not the burner the supercharged 3.0 is. It would work for the OP's intended use.
I've never owned a Lexus. I have a couple of neighbors that do. While they love being coddled by the dealership, they don't like the prices they pay for maintenance and repair. Getting a 3rd party mechanic that you trust would probably help.
Just thinking out loud, if the OP wants a bigger vehicle that fits 3 in the back, an Acura MDX, or Lexus RX, or an Infiniti JX would probably be the better fit. I don't think many cars in his price range are going to be big enough for 3 passengers in the rear (along with car seats :surprise: ).
I have an independent mechanic I use once my vehicles are out of warranty. He has a great philosophy. If you're buying a car to last you 5-10 years, by a Japanese brand. If you're buying a car for 3 years, buy German. If you want something cheap to maintain and repair, buy American.
To bring the discussion back, this morning there was a review of the ATS in the local paper. Basically, the writer said it was average with a really small backseat.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/auto-news/drivers-seat-2013-cadilla- c-ats-offers-a-little-bit-of-luxury-684769/
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/EdmundsForums
It's really important for us to hear from our members and visitors to get direction going forward. Only good things are planned for the future, but we need to gather insights to get there! Whether it's your first time or you're a regular, we'd love to hear from you.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
anyway, the did a ELLPS comparo (along with cars.com). only criteria, a 46K sticker cap.
tested the BMW 328, C250, Audi A4, Caddy ATS, Acura TL (SH-AWD) and Volvo S60 (T5 AWD).
anyway, they only gave the top 3 finishers (but listed 0-60 for each) and did a quick recap (full details are supposed to be online).
No big surprise, but the 328 finished 1st (and had lowest 0-60). Possibly surprising, the Volvo finished a strong 2nd. Did very well overall, including better than expected on the track, and quick too. The Acura finished 3rd.
The S60 is a really nice, and well rounded car, that often gets overlooked. Not the most athletic maybe, but does surprisingly well in spirited driving. And has great seats!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Even more surprising, the much ballyhooed and brand new Caddy ATS, Mercedes C class and the Audi A4 didn't even crack into the top 3.
It must be a rwd stick.
I've driven both.
http://www.cars.com/crp/buyingGuides/images/46k_WhatYouGet.pdf
We're talking 4/10th of a second between the BMW and the TL. The Volvo was less than 2/10th behind the BMW and that's with AWD.
I think in that comparison, there's no bad choice. I found it interesting that the family subjective scores had the 1, 2, 3 as:
Volvo 125 pts
ATS 123 pts
BMW 114 pts.
Now that excludes the pure performance numbers. In the real world 0-60 and 1/4 mile times aren't the stuff that most buyers consider - and the $7K one would save with the Volvo....
In either event, that TL test is way off.
and as other have noted, even at that # the TL is way faster than anyone really "needs" or is likely to ever use.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
A quick run - down:
Acura. Pretty much the TL. It's basically a Japanese Buick Park Avenue. That's not a bad thing, as the Park Avenue was a fine car with nice seats, acceptable features, and a very nice and soft ride. That it cost GM almost 35K to make each one was a whole other story.
Lexus. Pretty much the ES here, since it is based on the Camry platform. It's a clone of the TL, pretty much, aside from styling. Both are excellent highway cruisers and will last a very long time. There also is the Avalon, which is a nice choice a well.
Volvo is a bit more interesting. They have always driven markedly better than their American or Japanese counterparts. A little bit of sport to go with the luxury. The S80 is a great vehicle and I'd honestly rather be driving one instead of yet another faceless jellybean (ie - Acura or Lexus).
On to Mercedes. Their E class is a bit smaller than you'd probably like. It's also as it has always been, a mediocre in-between car. The Problem is also that unless you're looking at CPO, you're going to be out of your price-range. That said, a 2 or 3 year old S class might be worth contemplating if you like Mercedes. Something that just came off of an executive lease.
Of the models to be looking at, the S350 Bluetec is the one to consider. It gets 21/31 mpg (better than the hybrid S class, even), and while it isn't a tire-smoking monster like the S550 is, it's not slow, either. Would I personally buy a used S over a brand new Lexus? In a heartbeat.
*note - wait until this fall of course, as depreciation will help you out. Currently, CPO 2012 S350s run around $75K. Expect that to be $60K this fall. A bit over your budget, but it's a stunning option that nobody would fault you for choosing.
BMW? It's pretty much the 5 series. You simply can't go wrong with one.
Audi is the A6. It's pretty much trying to be a 5 series clone. I'd call this the same as the Japanese rivalry between Lexus and Acura.
And, lastly, we have the underdog, Cadillac. Now, don't count them out immediately. They hit a home run with the CTS and it's only real fault is that the size was wrong. It simply can't fit more than four adults comfortably. Which it does as well as anything from Europe, I might add. And it handles great as well. It also has a much better GPS system than anything Mercedes or BMW has. The Mercedes GPS is sometimes so bad that you'd really be better off with your cell phone in a holder.
So GM fixed that with an extended wheelbase version, the XTS. Of note as well is the magnetic ride suspension, which is usually only found in exotic cars. The thing drives and rides as well as a S class. But it's not $100K. Not even close. It's my personal favorite of the list because it's so inexpensive, especially if you can find a CPO/lease return one. (these usually have 3 or 5K miles on them and are essentially new, except that someone else ate the initial depreciation, taxes, and registration. Their credit woes are your gain.
http://www.tracymotors.com/VehicleDetails/certified-2013-Cadillac-XTS-3.6L_V6_FW- D-Plymouth-MA/1954964653
A typical example.
Note - this is a smart thing to do with any new car, actually.
You could throw the Acura RLX in the mix too. Not as large as the big Euro cats, but it is a mid-size sedan with the same 102 cu. ft. as the Buick LaCrosse and only one cu. ft larger than the Camry.
The RLX's base price is around $48K but add the usual luxury features expected in a car of such luxury pretensions and that sticker climbs to $60K in a hurry. Reasonably equipped you probably could drive one home for $55K. But who would want to anyway? The RLX's styling is pitiful and downright dowdy. Not even a name change back to the Legend will move this metal.
Oops, I take that back in February Acura sold 16 and March 336. If my math is right, that is a 2000% increase...but who is counting.
I've driven quite a few of the recent versions of the TL. The 1.5 sec 0-60 time delta between the TL SH AWD and my S4 (according to Motor Week) is significant. And, not one that I've ever experienced. I can believe a .5 sec delta (with the S4 being faster). I can't believe the 1.5 sec delta Motor Week reported, however.
Something's not right with this Motor Week report...especially given their previous tests results on the TL.
Nah ah, now based on the Avalon's
re: Cadillac XTS: "The thing drives and rides as well as a S class."
Highly disagree with that statement.
I've never driven a TL and thought it was a Park Avenue...the early ones felt like fancy Accords (with much less headroom), but the current generation is a distinctive product; especially the SHAWD.
Lexus. Pretty much the ES here, since it is based on the Camry platform
Based on the Avalon
On to Mercedes. Their E class is a bit smaller than you'd probably like
Haven't driven the latest...they never felt small to me. Even when they were
Audi is the A6. It's pretty much trying to be a 5 series clone
I don't see that at all. If anything I see the A6 as surpassing the 5 series in all aspects; styling/drying dynamics/price...
And, lastly, we have the underdog, Cadillac. Now, don't count them out immediately.
I haven't driven the latest, but the previous was very impressive. I decided against it, but it was still a nice ride. The new one looks to have substantial improvements.
Took another ride in an ATS (this time in my neighbor's new Caddy). It's a 2.0 turbo. If GM could do something to make that engine a lot smoother, and not so corse, they'd go a long way to getting more people to pony up for the car.
Acura. Pretty much the TL. It's basically a Japanese Buick Park Avenue. That's not a bad thing, as the Park Avenue was a fine car with nice seats, acceptable features, and a very nice and soft ride. That it cost GM almost 35K to make each one was a whole other story.
Please let readers know that you refering to the base car and not the SH-AWD.
As for the Audi, yes, I personally think that the A6 is better than the 5, but if I said that at first, I'd have had fifty BMW fanboys spamming me with hate-mail. But it's small, really if you're coming from a normal family sedan. Any of these will feel and drive superbly.
The differences between the Avalon and the Camry are kind of like the XTS and the CTS. They share enough DNA to be hard to guess what comes from what. Either way, the ES is a good big car that is great for long drives. My only gripe is that Honda and Toyota overprice their cars by about 10-20%. And they never have meaningful incentives, either. That I can actually get a better deal at the end of a year on a Mercedes is telling.
Oh, I'd like to add one more car, just for fun. The Lincoln MKS. It's basically the new version of the Towncar, and it is a long, long overdue update at that. Of note is how it will fit five large male adults with winter coats on inside it in comfort. Like the GM, you get a lot of car for your money compared to the Japanese and European brands.
You realize that the CTS and XTS have little in common other than styling?
Now, TL SH AWD is really a different animal. I don't know that anyone drives any car to its true capabilities. That said, when I had my TL SH AWD, I know the handling benefits could be felt every day....around corners, better steering feel, confidence on twisting roads. None of that touches it's prowess in wet/snowy weather (which was excellent).
I agree with you on the A6 vs the BMW 5 series. For the money, I'd choose the A6 (3.0) all day, every day. It's better car to drive. And, the tech that comes with that level of car is better than the 5. The A6 handles better, rides better, too. Plus, it will come in a few thousand under the 5 series equipped like for like.
Can't comment on the big Caddy. The only ones I've had any seat time in are the CTS and the ATS....neither of which would be on my short list if I were plunking down my own money. Strong rumors around that the ATS is falling short of GM's sales expectations and they're throwing trunk money at it.