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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    So... If you havent heard it, check out "Random Access Memories" by Daft Punk. I know, Daft Punk - but I promise its not what youre expecting. Fantastic writing, legendary intrumentalists, and top notch production. It will sound incredible in the car!

    Downloaded a week ago, love it. I agree with Fed on this.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2013/04/2014-bmw-328d-review-and-road-test/

    It appears that BMW is confident that this car will get better than 40 MPG on the highway, talk has been 45...
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    fed....sorry....little late checking in. Not around here much recently. I love Daft Punk. Actually have "Get Lucky" and some others from that same album on my iPod. Thanks for the recommendation.

    Glad you liked Dishwalla. They weren't around long. Then again, the stuff I hear on the radio is a far cry from what our tastes run to.

    Again, thanks for the recommendation.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    :)
  • wonderwarthogwonderwarthog Member Posts: 50
    I have test-driven most of the cars mentioned and owned a TL until about three years ago. I admit that the TL is a solid, reliable, down-the-middle performer in spite of the FWD (haven't driven an SH), but they are less cushy than an ES, handle much worse than any of the Audi's mentioned, the Beemers, or the G37 and their styling--ugh! I find a lot of the comments about the ATS mystifying. Try a performance-trim ATS 3.6 and see how the TL stacks up. My biggest complaints with the ATS are the terrible color choices and cheesy interior trims. Also, for some reason, Cadillac dealers want to overpopulate their lots with boring silver and annoying black ATS's (probably because they sell the best to the public!). My wife, however, dislikes the colors and appointments of the ATS even more than I do, so forget that. She wants to buy a small SUV--gag me! I may be stuck with an Infiniti coupe. Sad huh?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited May 2013
    This may be old news for some, but I just learned that - I ran across the C&D comparison of top end of ELLPS (Lexus IS350F, Caddy ATS 3.6 and BMW 335i ). And the winner is... Lexus :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: On Car and Driver, high priests of BMW cult machine!! There were some knockouts of other magazines before. I remember many years ago Automobile or Road and Track put G350 over 330i, but the win was mostly on ground of value, as G was proclaimed a bit worse, but price difference made it win on adjusted score. But this time it is C&D. Moreover, the IS won was based on driving experience, not some secondary metrics. The biggest complaint against 335i was the miserable steering feel, which was pretty much what I thought myself on that 328i loaner. This is basically telling me BMW gave up on being true enthusiast sports sedan, or succumbed to gas mileage pressure. Electromechanical steering probably gives them extra mpg's.

    I am pretty positive that Lexus win was not because it's such a great car to drive (I mean, it probably is a fine car, but I doubt it all of the sudden became true "driver's car"), but it is BMW that changed so much. As others (Caddy, Lexus) are figuring out how much make a nice sports sedan, BMW seems to be in process of progressive amnesia, or worse - flat out rejection. I guess the market of badge and big back seat seekers is simply too large to ignore. This is a bit sad, but the market wizzes from BMW decided the small enthsiast folk got nowhere to go anyway, so no need to care what they want :cry: .

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    For those of you who are also on CCBA & SFTSF, this is a re-post:

    As you all know, my current DD is a 2011 BMW 328xiA which I am madly in love with. Today I had to bring my car in for service (trunk latch, adaptive headlight, & battery cable recall) and was provided a loaner car to drive. I've had a fantastic experience with 2 previous loaner cars, a 2011 335d & a 2013 X1 28i. Today's loaner car write up is on the 2013 BMW F30 328xiA sedan.

    I sit down in the car, adjust the seat & the mirrors, look for a place to stick the key (it's keyless go dummy!), put my foot on the brake, push the start button, tap the car into Drive and I'm ready to roll. The 4cyl N20 Turbocharged engine is most definitely nowhere nearly as smooth as my car's Inline 6 and kind of clatters like a diesel at idle.

    The 1st thing I notice is the the new F30 is bigger than my E90. Bigger trunk, bigger back seat, more headroom, wider center console. Bigger, but not as comfortable. The new center console is wider and my right leg is not comfortable resting up against it.

    The seats are nice and firm. Even though they are no Sport Seats, they have thicker bolsters than my car. I notice the buttons on the dash board are located much higher than they are in my car. The screen is smaller and I look down at the i-Drive controller and realize that this car doesn't have Navigation. No big deal, but the smaller screen looks like an afterthought. The steering wheel is bigger and is not as thick as the steering wheel in my car. Dash & interior materials are high quality.

    Navigating my way out of the dealership's back lot, I notice the featherlight steering. I stop a minute after starting the car to adjust my seat some more and the car shuts off. What? Oh, auto stop/start. Take your foot off of the brake or tug the steering wheel and the car fires right back up instantaneously.

    Right out of the dealership I notice how vague the steering response is and how soft the suspension is tuned. A few traffic lights later and I notice the "drive mode" button. I figure out the car is in "eco-pro" mode and toggle is forward 2 notches until it says "you are now in sport mode." Now we are getting somewhere. I notice the steering tightens up to an acceptable level and throttle response is instantaneous. I can't give it a full nail the gas and merge test because there is just too much traffic.

    Once I'm on the highway, I figure I'll just toggle back down to "eco-pro" mode to see what kind of MPGs this baby can return. The car wallows, is unresponsive, and provides the same steering "feel" as a 1991 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Station Wagon. This lasts for approximately 25 seconds. I think to myself: "what are they kidding me?"

    I toggle back into "sport" mode and notice the same thing that happened before, except now the 8 speed automatic shifts into 6th and won't go any higher, even though I'm cruising. Toggling the car into "comfort" mode dials back on the throttle response and steering weight. Plus the car will shift into 8th gear. But now the car is not as tight.

    Pay the toll, dial up "sport" mode and mash the gas on the way out. The 8 speed autobox shifts crisply and the motor rockets the car forward. The engine and transmission are paired perfectly. You can tell they were designed together.

    So now "sport" is the way to make the car drive decent. So in order to keep the revs down, select "sport," slide the beer tap shifter to the left, and "manually" shift into 8th gear.

    Hit a decent amount of "bad weather" traffic once I hit the CT border. The brakes don't seem as strong as my E90, there seems to be a bit of pedal float until the brakes bite, and I can actually feel the car dive under semi hard braking.

    While I was cruising, the trip computer said I was consuming fuel at a rate of 32 mpg. Even with the traffic, the car still returned 30.5 mpg. Good fuel economy numbers are nice, but that's not the main reason you buy "the ultimate driving machine."

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    What's this? a bimmer pity party?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Yes, you didn't get the memo? :P ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    warthog...just goes to show. Different experiences and expectations by different people. Personally, I found the ATS (both 3.6 and 2.0 turbo) to be coarse (much like the new 4 cyl turbo BMWs that NYC speaks about and the older G 3.7). The performance delta between the 3.6 V6 and the 2.0 4 cyl turbo is negligible. And, despite the ballyhoo Cadillac bombarded us with, it has not sold to expectations.

    The good news is, you can buy a G37 cheap right now. Just helped my sister buy a TL SH AWD (still one of my all time favorites). Good deals on those, too.

    It's hard to beat the smoothness and the sounds the 6 cyl engines in the BMWs, Acuras, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus. BMW should take some lessons from Audi with regards to how to build a smooth, torquey 4 cyl turbo.

    Kind of wanting to drive the Lexus ES after seeing that article. Closest I ever came to owning a Lexus was a few years ago, when the IS350 first hit the streets. Only reason I didn't was the dealership(s) didn't like that I wanted to make a skinny deal on one. Today, they would jump all over such a deal, from what I hear. But, I'm no longer interested.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    GRAPH, sort of like me with the GS.
    I remember when I was in college, I was walking in the City and I saw one, I said, I got have one of those in this life time. (PRESENT DAY) The direction Lexus took with the GS has left a bitter taste in my mouth
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    Dino & I kinda think alike when it comes to cars. It is funny that he posted about the F30 on the same day I got my F30 loaner and HAD to comment on it as well.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    You can't compare a ATS 3.6 with a base TL, IF you want to do that then compare it to the stop of the line SH.

    I just rented a ATS 3.6, when I'm out traveling and have time, I check nationals lot to see if I see a "fun" car, and I found the 3.6. It was fun, only had it for 2 days, it is about the same size as the last Gen Lexus IS, and smaller then the current 3 series and TL. This might be the biggest draw back for most people.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    This review - and I'm not a bmw homer like most here- is it more Buyers remorse or just a belief that the old underpowered "smoother" 6 is better then the more effecent and more powerful 4... Doesn't the 4 pull 60 more lbs of torque? Have more hp- have standard leather (sorry I kid)
    I would guess a week in the new rig would result in new results- or review. Or if you leased a 2012 vs a 2011 it would result in buyers bias.

    The old and new bmw are good cars to bad you have to pay extra if you decide to buy and bot lease one.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    I most definitely DO NOT have a shred of buyer's remorse. I do dig the power of the turbo 4. Gobs more power everywhere in the rev range. It is perfectly matched to the new 8 speed automatic as well. I'm just not in love with the F30. The vague electric power steering, the softer suspension, the higher belt line. The base tires have too tall side walls, there's too much of a gap in the wheel wells, I don't care for the front end styling if the car doesn't have Xenon Headlights. Don't get me wrong, the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    the F30 is a nice car. Just not for me.

    That sums up my reaction to a short test drive in the new 335i Sport Line. It's a nice car but lacks the magic of my E46 or for that matter my E39.

    I think I'd like the car better if they'd fix the (electric) steering which was terrific on previous Bimmers.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    and I'm not a bmw homer like most here

    No but you secretly want a BMW and have in the past been looking to buy one so stop playing these games. BTW, the 335 has the smallest engine, lowest HP and torque rating of the group, but posted the fastest 0-60 and quarter mile times of the group now bad for a " underpowered "smoother" 6"

    It's interesting that BMW lost this test by ONE point, and that C&D give it perfect points on many items. Granted the car has gone soft, because that is what the market wants, for the true enthusiast like most people on this board it's not what we want, however, the minority can not keep the company in business like the masses can.

    It has taken Lexus how long to get the IS right? The ATS still can't win a test against the inferior BMW...
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited May 2013
    Sween referred to the naturally aspirated 230 hp engine in E9x 328 models, not the 300+ hp turbo six in 335 that you are writing about in C&D test. Two different engines.

    It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2013
    Lets go thru this babble one line at a time.....

    "secretly want a BMW" it's not much of a secret if I said I was looking for one various times, also mentioning my frustration on what you get for a new one at certain price pts and also mentioning I was looking used.

    Smother six rant- again was talking 328 vs 328.. So lost here

    C and d mention- no idea how this relates to my post as it was never mentioned- but again this par to the other posts from you.

    "One" in bold comment - bmw lost get over it - one in a million does happen, ask Lloyd Christmas.

    - my comment-

    Any new test drives in the works on cars you would like to drive but have no real intention of buying or have the Scottsdale dealers shut down the window shopping Saturday fun fest ?

    I would also like to mention the counter attacks are more underpowered then the new 320.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Fair-

    My comment was not directed at just you- every car buyer here thinks the older one is better for a while- then they eventually upgrade and like the newer one better. ..

    Fyi Bmw owners...
    The bmw f30 and d45 numbers mean nothing to non-bmw owners - I'm a car guy - I like 57 Chevy, 72 camaro.. We all know you know what you are talking about but non bmw owners have no idea what a f30 is.

    Btw the 89 maxima might be the most underrated maxima of all time. ;)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    edited May 2013
    Gotcha. No offense taken. I used to always think the newer is better while having respect to what a previous model was & that people who complained that an older generation of is far superior to the new model were just being stubborn & ridiculous. I really feel that BMW has taken a completely new direction with the current generation 3 series that I personally do not like. Only time & the sales figures will tell.

    E & F codes are BMW speak for certain body styles. The current 320, 328, & 335 sedans are known as the F30.

    The previous generation (like I have) is known as the E90 and was produced (in sedan form) from model year 2006 - 2011.

    From 1999 - 2005, the 3 series was known as the E46.

    Before that from 1992 - 1998, the 3 series produced were called E36

    And finally, from 1984 - 1991 (sedans), the 3 series is named the E30. These are the 3 box design BMWs.

    Nobody is trying to exclude you by any means. I hope I cleared things up for you.

    I got back in my car today after its visit to the dealer (new passenger side headlight assembly, trunk latch, negative battery cable, brake fluid, & cabin filter) and it just feels right. My 230 hp car is far from the fastest car on the road, but it is just so smooth & so right.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    I always wanted new versions and was excited with every new launch. I'm an option hog, newer cars tend to have more equipment standard and more optional. They usually have stronger engines, better transmissions. The chassis are usually stiffer and the ride is usually a bit more refined within each model's target audience. All those were reasons why I liked new models over outgoing ones. New 3-series improves a lot of things on paper - it has more torque (328 anyway), better automatic transmission, it finally has rear split folddown seat standard (but of course 320i does not). It is larger, which majority wanted, but I did not.

    However, there are significant steps back in this model that are important for many who bought previous generations - disastorous steering feedback (I could not believe how bad it was - if it were a Buick I'd say fine, that's how GM positions those cars, but for BMW it is TERRIBLE). The interior has been downgraded - larger space came at cost of quality of plastic switches (they feel harder, more like downscale car) and even iDrive does not feel the same - my old one has a "graded" hump feel with each notch, the new one is a flat ratchet. I know it's nitpicking, but I feel entitled to nitpick a car that came with almost 5 grand price increase (effectively) over old model. Yes, the price is another issue - it is flat out ridiculous. Well equipped 328 goes over 50 grand in a snap (my 328 wagon with Nav, convenience pack, sports pack and premium pack stickered at $46K), 335 shoots to almost 60 grand if you like any of nice conveniences. 50/60 grand for THIS???

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    BTW, the straight six/ vs turbo - I don't expect you to understand this and you don't have to agree. Engine audio effects are indeed non-essential parts of driving experience. All I can tell you I hear the difference and I like the old one more. You don't care and I do. Both is OK. People have different levels of sound sensitivity and awareness.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    It will take some time to admit it by the fan base, but F30 is a letdown when it comes to sports sedan. That is an opinion, of course,

    I think the true enthusiast already knew this... But it's the things to come, if car companies want to make the new EPA numbers something has to go for now, but with the new wave of Diesel engine comes, the tide might turn the other way.Once the CAFE numbers increase, we can only hope.

    In reference to the turbo 6, my comment was in reference that the BMW lost the test by ONE point, but was fastest of all the cars. It lost because of handling...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Engine audio effects are indeed non-essential parts of driving experience. All I can tell you I hear the difference and I like the old one more.

    This is why the Alfa GTV6 will always have a special place in my heart, it was the closes car I will ever have to owning a Ferrari. That engine, makes music, get it past 4K, and wow.

    The BMW in-line 6 does the same thing, doesn't stir the soul as much as the V6 alfa, but close.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I get there are different model codes for cars- infact I'm sure Nissan and ford have different codes for a maxima and the fusion. The fact that BMW enthusiasts use these terms like they invented codes seem silly and douchie to me.
    I will print out the descriptions above so I can follow some of the posts on BMWs; thanks.

    I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all. It's all about cheap lease deals and high demand - which BMW has cornered the market in getting people in - I think they will do very well with this new redo as it prob addresses issues with the prev (f30?) car had that the non enthusiast mass lease buyers complained about- and blame you have the ultimate leasing machine.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all.

    This is most certainly true. Once the enthusiasts build a brand's image over a decade or two, they're of no further value in extending the sales numbers into the mass market.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    You are right that BMW cares about 2 things (like every other automaker), selling as many cars as they can and making as much profit off of those cars. As much as we love certain cars, they have to change. They have to add more safety features. They have to add more luxury goodies. They have to add different wheels. They have to change for the sake of change.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    Absolutely. However, there is a danger when all brands converge into one. Over long periods, regardless of product or service, it is those companies that have something that differentiates them from the crowd that win. Superior services, lowest price, best value (as price/content), best quality (whichever way one defines quality), etc. Prior the pedal fiasco, Toyota was uncontested reliability leader - their cars never had cutting edge equipment, never been safest in the market, or offered best value in terms of price of content. But they delivered expected features on time. When nobody asked for side impact airbags or ABS, they were either unavailable, or never delivered, when those features because standard of service, Toyota did not procrastrinate.

    So after gutting out the steering feedback, what's left there in BMW cars? Good engine and transmission combo with really good mpg, decent build quality, brand cache. But Audi makes nicer interiors, Mercedes makes nicer ride and still has better brand recognition (reportedly Germany is a different story, but in US there is no doubt), Lexus makes better overall quality, Infiniti makes them faster and (now also) sharper cornering (at least G), Acura has superior value in terms of the content.

    BMW does not excell or corner anything in particular as they used to. Yeah, gas mileage... Really, Pay up 5-10 grand more to get extra 3 mpg - that's a great calculus.

    They can cash out their old chips for a while, as they probably have a lot of them. But watch out. There used to be a reason to pony up the money for this expensive piece of metal, because one could argue that nobody else has quite done it they way they do. This claim may not be valid in five or ten years. When chips are spent there is nothing left. Those things don't come quickly and immediately, but when the tides turn, it takes long time to turn them back. Just ask Mazda and Nissan how (NOT) well they did when they try to outcamry the Camry.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Thanks guys I like being told I'm right it feels great and appreshiated. Wish my wife would go along with that- or even flight for that matter.

    On the Camry comment - I'm sure Nissan is fine with what they did with the Altima as its past and current sales dictate. Not a great example - maybe use a fusion and a Mazda 6- or something different in that argument- Nissan bad example as the Altima prob saved the brand during the mid late 2000s.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    I'm referring to Nissan from 90s, not 2000s. Altima was a pittiful car then, Maxima was not much better. Whole line was gutted of any sportyness. 2000 (or so) Altima was indeed the car that saved Nissan, along with that 3.5l V6 engine.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    From the 90s ... (For model Code guys, the w5245) Really ? never mentioned in the long post above might of misses it thou. I think Nissan has done ok with the Altima. And the comment about the 3.5 is funny- most of the cars they sell in bulk are 4 cyl under the Nissan name and have done so for 10 years plus years. Sure the engine has had many awards and pulls like a mofo . But look at sales (10 years) of maximas, pathfinders , and to a lesser extent large rogue (name excapes me) and tell me it saved the brand? Maybe you mean saved Infiniti ?

    I think what saved Nissan was a quality 4 door sedan with a 4cyl - that undercut the Camry a bit on pricing- might have been a little edgier looking and performed a touch better in base form and had more standard stuff.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited May 2013
    The 3.5 was put in Altima, Maxima, Murano, Pathfinder, Xterra, Frontier, Quest, Z350, all Infinities but top of the line (G, I, FX, EX, M). It was highly acclaimed at the time, universally acknowledged as one of best. Yes, Altimas were selling mostly 2.5, but all cars above Altima had that engine and it was responsible for their success. Especially Z350, Murano, G35, FX.

    I agree styling of that new (then) Altima combined with aggressive pricing was the main contributor in turnaround in Nissans largest volume car sales. But the engine (and more generically platform) was another major contributor. It created a real buzz of Nissans being fast, even if people actually were buying smaller engine.

    At that time Nissan was also beating the rest with best time of assembly. The early cars had some quality issues, but they mostly worked it out - except for Titan and Quest, I think, which still don't have best reputation.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    While I kind of get what you are saying, customers looked at the up crust of Nissan and said wow let's go fast but they bot the 4. No one is saying the engine isn't a good one but I can't quantify with hard numbers the 6 had anything to do with saving the brand, sorry. If its a feeling it saved the brand again it's a feeling, not fact.

    Facts- Look at the April sales numbers for the Nissan division - top 3 cars sold- Altima, roque, sentra- infact they made up 50% all sales. Number four was the versa.
    Btw they sold more jukes then they sold xteras, Maronos, titans and quests- and the maxima outsold the juke by 200 cars for the month. (Juke is real ugly btw) All facts found on nissan corporate website and are US only sales.

    "Even so, Nissan predicts that only 10 percent of Altima buyers will choose the car with two extra pots. But they’d be well advised to do so, because the V-6 Altima offers big power in a very complete package." C and driver
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The bmw f30 and d45 numbers mean nothing to non-bmw owners

    So, where are the f30 and d45 and other obscure numbers to be found on BMW cars? Tiny chrome strips on fenders, or trunks, or embedded somewhere in the grilles or maybe in the car instruction manual? Thought that BMWs were identified by numbers posted on car such as 325 or similar. f30 sounds goofy for cars. This numbering scheme of f--- is supposed to be reserved for U.S. fighter jets.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    It's a nice car but lacks the magic of my E46 or for that matter my E39.

    What the heck is E46 or E39. Seen many commercials on TV for the cars, but never ever heard them mention these acronyms.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Yep it's language only reserved for bmw Enthusists, to me it's douchie talk. Year and model number please like every other car on the planet.">
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    These are mfr codes for two and three generations back of 3-series model. Easier than saying 198x to 9x, especially that coupes or convertibles are introduced two or even three years after sedan versions of same platform. With the code, it is more precise.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    to me it's douchie talk. Year and model number please like every other car on the planet.">

    If you say so but my car is a 2000 528i/E39 but it's quite a bit different from the current 528i/F10 which has a 3 liter engine compared to the 2.8L in my car.

    All those E/F designations help to emphasize platform mates that have much in common with the primary distinctions having to to with motors. Mercedes guys do it too using W### designators.

    BMW model nomenclature hasn't been very consistent so the platform letter-number system helps because it's been more consistent. I think the same applies to M-Benz.

    This topic is Entry-level Performance Sedans, a category pretty much invented by the cars from Munich. A little homework about BMWs might help you in this discussion. If you find this too confusing perhaps your time would be better spent on other boards

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Please tell me the last mb post was - or even a reference to wx code you speak of on this chat board. Again I get the reason behind such codes, but I don't think I and other non-bmw owners (lovers) NEED to do such homework you speak of- we are not naive infact many of us actually are just as much of enthusiasts even without owning a propeller badge. Sure the Germans as you say invented the category - but as you can see from the right hand column they make up less then half the field.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN....I really love the sound of the motor in the S4. That said, I also know it has what Audi calls a "soundaktor". In short, it supplements the sound of the engine which allegedly makes it more pleasing. However, I've test driven the A6 3.0 S/C (a detuned version of the S4's engine). It sounds about the same, just quieter.

    dino...I'm in total agreement. As BMW moves further away from their sporting roots, the likes of Audi is filling that void. Someone in the halls of BMW's HQ presented a PPT complete with spreadsheets showing how BMW could sell more cars if they moved away from their sporting intent. BMW's exec staff agreed, apparently.

    Not so sure they know how to play in the "lux" end of the luxury-sports arena. Benz and Cadillac play better there. But, they're going to give it a shot, so it seems.

    BMW did indeed spend a few decades building their rep and their cachet. That being firmly entrenched, looks like they want to fire a volley at Mercedes and maybe even Cadillac. Maybe this is the first time they've felt both are a threat.

    It looks like Lexus is also going to try to fill part of the market that BMW has vacated. Gotta believe Acura and Infiniti aren't far behind, although both of them have had their toes in those waters for awhile.

    Gotta remember, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti cut their teeth taking aim at German lux, attempting to do it better (and less expensive) than Mercedes, Audi, BMW.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    My issue is BMW is not nearly as luxurious inside, especially in their base trims, as say Audi or MB. Wood inlays really improve the look, also some of those touches you get with those Lux, Sport or M-line packages. The base aluminum trim is quite dull, if you ask me. Their dashboard consoles always look like a 1980s recycle, the competition is light years ahead in styling of the dials and gauges, or center area. It was allright when BMW was the true athlete of the bunch, one took it because the looks didn't count, it was the driving. However, when the steering disaster of those F-coded models took hold, suddenly I ask myself, why would I pay 5 extra grand for this (of course once it is time for my current car to go). So far the only way I see BMW winning me over is by those "peripheral" models like GT, wagon, or perhaps X1, or X3. I find it easy to imagine that those are still sportiest of their peers. Nobody else makes proper wagons anymo, i.e. sedan from hood to center pillar, extended back, no stupid raised suspensions, body claddings or other crossover crap. I believe TSX will be gone soon, so the new 328 wagon may be still in the mix just because there is nothing else left, unless new CTS will still feature wagon. 335 GT could have been a good alternative - killer engine, great space arrangement, but from early reports the steering and suspension are even more vague and soft than sedan/wagon. But is there anything like that around? The rest is the crossover stuff. If I did cross over, indeed, perhaps Audi Allroad - never tried that one. Honda Crosstour or Subaru Outback, if I wanted to save some money. But it's not the same thing than proper sporty wagon. Those are practically dead. :cry:

    For now I'm committed to hold onto my 328 wagon. Just love that thing, 18 months after delivery it's near perfect, not to jinx it. Only some major failures could make me unlove it. I'm not scared of normal maintenance or even occasional repairs. Even couple of grand a year after warranty is not a big deal to me - at all. We shall see in three years how it holds.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    If you say so but my car is a 2000 528i/E39 but it's quite a bit different from the current 528i/F10 which has a 3 liter engine compared to the 2.8L in my car.

    The current 528i/F10 uses a 2L turbo 4 cyl, not a 3L engine. BTW, many BMW enthusiast believe your E39 was the last of the great 5 series.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    BTW, many BMW enthusiast believe your E39 was the last of the great 5 series.

    Yup, my bad on the F10/528i, even I get confused by the messed up current nomenclature. If there was any sense to it the 528i would be called the 520T
    (T for turbo). It's time to drop the dopey "i"-for (fuel) injection which made sense back in the 70s when most cars were still carbuerated.

    As for the E39 being the last great 5er, Jeremy Clarkson calls it the last "mechanical" Five Series and I tend to agree. I'd rather have a great driver with hydraulic steering, a full sized spare, a temp gauge and an oil dipstick than all that i-drive crap and run-flat tires.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    It's not just reserved for BMW Enthusiast, my buddies in the Alfa club understand the different between a E39 and a E30. Most auto (not all) enthusiast know the difference between 964,996 and a 997 in Porsche speak.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363

    I don't think BMW or any car company at this point cares about the enthusiasts owner at all.


    I think it might more accurate to say that BMW doesn't care about selling to enthusiasts who are not wealthy. By all accounts the M- badged cars are very enthusiast-oriented and deliver terrific performance but they're also very expensive and it's true that they no longer make an entry-level luxury car that is very performance oriented, I guess they figure us poor people can buy Minis.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Wagons have been on death watch for quite a few years. For all intents and purposes, the TLX and BMW wagons are indeed going away, unfortunately. IMHO, they were the best of the breed.

    E wagons are still out there. SRX is more of a crossover than a wagon.

    I was hoping a 3 Series GT would have been the answer, but have heard the same as you dino.

    I hope the new 4 coupe shows something more in line with the F9x series. I really like the look of it from the pics I've seen.

    That being the case, I also have an A6 on my radar.

    Still plan on keeping the S4 for 2-3 more years, though.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    This is why if I was looking for a M5, the E39 would be the one I'd be looking at. Not too heavy, built proof engine, excellent handling.

    In regards the new alphabet games, marketing won out, people would assume that a 520iT wouldn't hold the same level of class then saying 528i. It works in the 3 series with no problem, since the 320i is really a way to get people in to the showroom. The 1 series isn't significant yet for BMW, this of course well changed when the 2014 1 series arrives.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Wagons have been on death watch for quite a few years. For all intents and purposes, the TLX and BMW wagons are indeed going away, unfortunately. IMHO, they were the best of the breed.

    Not true at all, BMW currently imports a 3 series wagon, and will offer it in a diesel form for 2014. The 5 series wagon sells very well for them. The biggest issue with wagons are simple, people who buy them hold on to them, they are a small niche car for BMW, MB and Audi. The 3 series GT will be interesting, since it's suppose to have more rear passenger room.

    I'm very interested in a 2014 3 series diesel wagon, well wait to see the pricing on it.
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