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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    Guys while I think the new q50 ( hate the name ) is going to be better then anything else in the segment for the price. Sure audis have nice interior, bmw has had the "free service" the bloodline and the cool codes for models, the Lexus has the nice show rooms and the lux background, the TL of late has had the discounts, the MB, cts, Volvo and Tsx have been outclassed at most levels.
    This new commentary while enjoyable is old news the G - now q has beaten the bmw in the all important value for the buck. If you are a person who Buys (not leases) a car in this class - wants bmw sport and lux it's Infiniti for this class- not to beat a dead horse but I told you so.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 796
    I've been helping my mom's best friend shop for a new vehicle to replace her leased 2010 Infiniti G37. Her lease expires on July 10th, so we're down to just a few weeks.

    We looked at the 2013 Acura TL 3.5 'Base' and she liked it (drives great, awesome interior, but the exterior is still fugly to me)! They are offering the following lease deal-

    $2499 due at lease signing ($2200 down, $299 first payment)
    $299/month for 30 months
    30k miles allowed, $0.20/mile overage

    We also went to the Infiniti dealership and they offered the following-

    2013 Infiniti G37 Journey 4-door w/ Premium Pkg
    $2499 due at lease signing ($2200 down, $299 first payment)
    $299/month for 24 months
    24k miles allowed, $0.25/mile overage

    She is currently paying just over $400/month and her goal is around $300/month and she's willing to put down around $2000. So both of these fit the bill.

    The only other car that she really liked isn't quite an entry-level luxury car, but still very impressive, IMO. She loves the 2014 Mazda6 i Grand Touring. A 36-month lease with $2000 down would be around $280/month.

    Any other suggestions for near-luxury or entry-level luxury cars that would fit within her budget of $2000-ish down and $300/month?
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,291
    Any other suggestions for near-luxury or entry-level luxury cars that would fit within her budget of $2000-ish down and $300/month?

    She could probably lease a BMW 320i sedan for $299/month with $2K down payment.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    There is a forum (On edmunds) just for this, that talks about leases for all cars, find them for both the TL and G and see what people are leasing these cars for. This Forum is more about talking about these cars than best lease prices.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,472
    You can do a Volvo S60 T5 for that money.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    speaking of volvo s60- they sold more of them (last month, May sales) then honda sold Tl's and TSXs--

    end of Acura coming soon?? - for more sales numbers click on link

    http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-3-series-leads-luxury-sports-sedan-may-sales-s60-b- eats-tl-374761.html#axzz2X98Hfnx3
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,906
    Thanks for the link sween. It was an interesting read. I didn't realize MB sells as many Cs as BMW sells 3s.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 796
    There is a forum (On edmunds) just for this, that talks about leases for all cars, find them for both the TL and G and see what people are leasing these cars for. This Forum is more about talking about these cars than best lease prices.

    Thanks. But the Lease and Purchase topics cover one specific model (and I have visited them already). I wanted to cast a wider net for ideas and suggestions, so that's why I posted it here.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 796
    speaking of volvo s60- they sold more of them (last month, May sales) then honda sold Tl's and TSXs--

    end of Acura coming soon?? - for more sales numbers click on link


    The Volvo S60 is an a very good car- looks good, drives good, good value depending on model/options. The Acura TL, even with the DESPERATELY NEEDED 2012 nose job and butt lift, is still not an appealing design...not as ugly as the 2009 TL, but few if any cars are uglier than that!

    At the height of its popularity, the TL sold 78,218 units in 2005. Even the 2008 model sold 48,766 cars. But the 2009-2012 TL has only sold in the low 30s each year, topping out at 34,049 in 2010.

    2013 YTD Figures at May EOM aren't looking very good either. So far, the TL has sold 12,434 units this year which is down 15.3% (or 2242 units) compared to this time last year.

    My beloved, but ignored and soon to be discontinued, TSX is faring much worse. Year to date, it has only sold 7,746 compared to 15,012 at this point in 2012. That's a decrease of 48.4% or 7266 fewer cars.

    The ILX is hardly setting any records, but it has sold 9,217 units YTD. That is almost 2000 more sales than the TSX has lost compared to last year, so people are obviously buying the ILX instead of the TSX. But the ILX desperately needs to replace the underpowered 150hp 2.0L engine used in all models with the 5-speed A/T! I've driven a 2013 ILX Premium with the 2.0L 5AT and I was genuinely impressed with the car until I pulled onto the highway! 0-60mph takes 9.5 seconds, dead-even with the Kia Rio and Hyundai Accent with 6-speed A/T! Even the cheap-as-dirt Nissan Versa 1.6 CVT can hang neck-and-neck at 9.8 seconds.

    That kind of performance is tolerable, if mediocre, on a $15k car. But on a $30k 'Premium' entry-level luxury or near-luxury model, it's simpy UNACCEPTABLE! Especially from a company that is known for making some great high-performance 4-cylinder engines!

    Acura was doing just fine with until 2009 when the godawful "Power Plenum" (aka- 'The Shield' and 'The Beak') corporate fascia debuted! Despite immediate negative response from the media and consumers and plunging sales figures, they defiantly insisted that it was the new look of Acura....and it wasn't nor has it been pretty since! =(

    I have owned seven Honda/Acura vehicles in my 24 years of driving. I've owned nine different cars in my life, and was a die-hard Honda loyalist from the day I got my license in 1990 until 2006 when I saw the new Civic and walked away! Actually, I drove off the lot in shock and terrified at the prospect of shopping for anything other than a Honda. But after some research and test drives, I found myself right at home with a 2006 Mazda3 and now I have a 2012 CX-9 GT.

    But the best car I've ever driven (and the best car ever made, in my humble opinion) was my 1994 Acura Legend L 4-door. I bought it in 1997 when it was returned at the end of a 36-month lease. It was Frost White with Taupe Cloth and 5-speed manual, but that was exactly how I wanted it. I drove until May 2001 when I was t-boned by a speeding F250 work truck running a red light as I was making a left turn. I barely survived, but my Legend did not. =(

    It's sad to see Acura where it is today. I've felt much the same way about Honda for the last several years also. But the 2013 Accord is so good and so much better than the 2008-2012 model that it replaced....perhaps there's hope after all?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Good post "igozoomzoom."

    I honestly think Acura would sell many more cars if they rolled back time and started making their 2006 lineup again...LOL.

    The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,040
    The RDX is selling very, very well and the MDX is still a very good seller. Guess which models Acura makes more profit on? So sales of certain models doesn't necessarily spell disaster as it's overall profit that counts. Of course making good proift on all your lines is preferable but as long as you're making money it's not exactly like you're going to go out of business. Accords didn't so so well over the past 5 years but several other models like the CRX, Odyssey, Civic and Pilot sold well and with good profit margins.

    Bottom line, just looking at sales numbers of a couple of models is a fools delight. Acura is one good redesign away from being on track again with the TL and one good engine to make the ILX a good seller. Along with the very profitable MDX and RDX sales they will be just fine.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,472
    the new MDX came out this week. All new design. Basically a "supersized" RDX, with the hi-tech AWD, etc. But same basic platform and drivetrain, just more goodies and room.

    they do need to hurry up and redesign the TL/TSX (I believe they are combining the 2 into 1 car) into something competitive and exciting. They can then also tweak the ILX (maybe go to the TSX 2.4l engine/6 speed combo).

    the TSX-TL (TSL?) can grow a bit, and offer 4 and V6 like the TSX used to. Or, follow the trend and go NA and Turbo.

    The ILX is improved this year (content wise). Pretty much they eliminated the base (strippo) model but kept the price close.

    so, there is hope now that they did the "big" car, and both SUVs. The other sedans are definitely due, since the TSX was done for 2009 so it is on it's 5th year, and TL the 6th.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    While I agree the mdx (and its now a new mdx) and rdx sell well, very well they do not sell in numbers to keep the brand alone- look at the sales numbers for every other car they produce and they are mid pack at best in terms of sales- mind you mid pack means massive discounts and minimal If any profit. Honda on the other hand no matter how bad the previous accord and civic looked they stll were near the top of the sales chain. I would also note that when the last civic was being slammed they quickly fixed it because its the real bread and butter of the brand.

    Acura is one good redesign away from selling some cars for sure- but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.

    Sales numbers tell the story, they sold 200k crvs in 2011 and when they did a redu they were very careful not to mess that up. Something they failed to do with the tsx and TL.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,040
    means massive discounts and minimal If any profit.

    You champion solid research all the time....do you have any information that indicates Acura is making "minimal, if any profit". If they are midpack then everyone below must be in Chapter 11. I think a little exaggeration is being played here.

    but they have to redesign a bunch of cars to do that.

    Ummhh...no, just a couple. Where do you get a "bunch of cars"? They just totally redesigned the MDX, RDX and RLX. The RDX outsells the BMW X3, the Q5 and the EX37. Nothing midpack there. The MDX is right up there in sales with most of them except the RX. The RX has no little brother to share sales with(yet, NX is coming). If it did the MDX and RX would be pretty close in sales IMO. So saying that all their lines are "midpack" is probably another exaggeration.

    They have the ILX which admittedly needs some tweaking. They already have the 2.4l in the sport model of the ILX. They should just make that the base engine with a 6 spd auto. They are apparently ditching the TSX so the only car they really need to redo completely(and with a pleasing design hopefully) is the TL or whatever they are going to call the replacement for the TL/TSX. That's one car....not a bunch of cars.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    M6user, why even go the distant in debating someone who looks at one side of the Balance Sheet.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 796
    The MDX is the only Acura worth a look in its segment right now, and even it is overdue for a refresh.

    As someone else already mentioned, the redesigned 2014 MDX has just been released in the last week or so. It looks like a 5/4 version of the RDX, but that's not a bad thing based on current RDX sales.

    YTD sales of the RDX as of May month end were up 122.1% over the same period in 2012. 18,177 units vs. 8,183 last year!

    I applaud Acura for trying something different with the original RDX and using a turbocharged 4-cylinder, but buyers in this segment want smooth V6 power. Just like the Mazda CX-7, a high-performance compact/upscale CUV is interesting in theory but the reality doesn’t quite cut it.

    The MDX was definitely due for a significant update after seven years with little change. I test drove a 2012 MDX last November when I was in the market for a 3-row CUV and I still chose the 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT. The MDX stickered for $44k and the CX-9 stickered for $39k and the CX-9 had more features, better handling and the interior materials and assembly quality were also on part with the Acura. The lack of a FWD version of the MDX was also a negative.

    The ‘real’ price difference also made my decision much easier. This was in 11/2012 and I could barely get the 2012 MDX for $2500 off sticker (around $41,500). My CX-9 stickered for $38,785 and I drove it off the lot for $29,706 plus sales tax! I paid cash for the CX-9, but probably would have leased the MDX if I had picked it. Grandma was generous in her will, but not THAT generous!

    Back to the current and near-future of Acura….the demise of the TSX will take a sedan AND wagon out of the lineup. Will the ILX, TLX and RLX sedans and RDX and MDX crossovers be enough to keep the brand viable and return it to actual relevance?

    Then again, Buick is doing well with less- a compact sedan (Verano), a sporty/performance-oriented mid-size sedan (Regal) and near-full-size sedan (LaCrosse) along with a large Crossover (Enclave) and mini-crossover (Encore). In particular, the Encore is a joke compared to the RDX and the LaCrosse is no RLX. But somehow, Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers….
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    "Buick is more desirable than Acura to most buyers"….
    oh really? I am pretty sure Honda was not begging the Goverment for $50 million to keep them a float during the financial meltdown. And please dont get me wrong, I am not throwing insults, just facts.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    well M6 - i am the champion for research or atleast I do want a base for strong commentary as opposed to random thoughts.. case in point- the 2013 TL SHAWD with tech pack, we can mosltly agree would be a good example to use- it has a MSRP of over 44k, invoice of 41,6 and according to true car for my area (use 02144) you can get it for 39,588 (3 dealers willing to do this deal) - thats over a 10% discount- the BMW 328 is down 4%, the Audi down 6 and ATS Caddy is 3%.. i just dropped some knowledge on you. I understand you cannot truly tell what they are making or losing on these cars but it tells you something when it comes to discounting and fact is they are not making as much (could be losing?) as they would like given the above figures. second paragraph above- Again as i stated the 2 SUVS sell well, but lets remember how many MDXs are they selling?? 50k last year mdx - very good year -vs the x5s 44,445- the rdx 29,520 again very good year as they avg around 15k since inception the bmw x3 35,173[. BMW sells 100k 3 series in the states vs the tls 33k -- so are they really beating them by that much to justify a TL that sells a third of the 3 series?? lets add in the tsx 28,865 sales from 2012.. so 2 car lines make up HALF of 3 series sales. Acura no longer sells (haha) the ZDX-- they sold 379 RL for 2012. 379 wonder what the margins on the balance sheet on that one are (was). (all numbers above are US numbers).

    I stand by my statements from 5 years ago- they need a convertable, a sports coupe, a midlevel sedan with looks, a flagship people want and a supercar (which is comming).. Thats a bunch in my estimation maybe we have differ thoughts on what is alot but when we are talking half a line of cars its alot.

    and for billy both sides of the balance sheet need to equal out to make it balance sheet.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,705
    My prior ride was an 2005 Abyss Blue Acura TL. Other than not so good in the snow (until I bought it snow shoes), what a great all around ride! Simple, handsome exterior, I still think it looks good. Power, handling, good ride, decent mpg, nice interior, well built and reliable. 6.5 years, 85,000 trouble free, Zaino-shiny miles.

    When the '09 came out, I was pretty shocked and upset at the path the Acura stylists had taken. While I may be no arbiter of style, I was fairly sure Acura was going to take a hit on TL sales. Of course, the Beak being the most obvious flaw. But the rest of the car just seemed overwrought and heavy-looking to me.

    Talking to Acura rep at the New England Auto Show, the first thing he noted was that the beak could be painted to make it less obtrusive. Now, there's a selling point...

    We've had several Acura's in my family, nothing but good experiences. I hope that they can reclaim the prior gen TL's glory. And, I'm not sure the RLX will be the answer to anyone's question. Hopefully, a good car, but the styling, IMHO, not so much.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    This isn't the forum to talk lease price's, this is to talk about the cars. The other forums will give you what people are getting the cars for. I found the RDX forum very handy for my cousin, he was able to get a great deal on one, from the posting on the correct Forum.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    oh billy billy billy-- billyboy wow - blaming buick, a division of GM for its management faults (& labor issues) and not the actual cars they produce..Seems fair-- oh wait honda didnt ask for a bailout in 09 are you sure billy?/

    http://www.newser.com/story/52383/honda-hops-on-bailout-bandwagon.html
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    Answer these questions and try to analyze where the company stands-

    1). What is Honda's Market Cap and how many shares are outstanding?
    2) How much Debt is on their balance Sheet?
    3). What is their free cash flow?
    4). What is their EBITDA?
    5). Whats the PMV?

    Creating a model on the above information probably will give you a true outlook on the companys future.
    Again I am just trying to help you in your attempt of the demise of Honda.
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,674
    Oh I wish I had time to pop some popcorn and watch this, however, I need to go pay some bills.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    i can run those numbers asap if needed- but i never said honda- i said acura.. hello

    numbers you requested

    market cap is 65b, 1.8b outstanding, rev growth looks good. free cash is 547, ebitda has risen from 12 levels, trading at a 52 week low yday--
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,040
    Does it really shock you that a 6 yr old design(and which wasn't liked well in the first place) is being heavily discounted with the knowledge that the car is basically going to be discontinued? You really need to take things in context. Facts and statistics are useless without context and relativity. You're right about one thing....they do need a midlevel sedan with great looks which may or may not be the new TLX.

    You talk about discounts without having a clue as to what the real margins are. Like I said, context is very useful and if you were right 5 yrs ago Acura should be kaput by now. So much drama for no reason. Nobody is saying Acura has not made mistakes but you make it sound like the sky is falling.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    You talk about discounts without having a clue as to what the real margins are
    no i mentioned that above but please feel free to drop those numbers on me.

    Does it really shock you that a 6 yr old design( no but why didnt they chaange it earlier- like they did the civic of 2012??

    sky is falling. no just sedans (the volume leaders) sales numbers

    and im spent
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Posts: 198
    Dont want to get into this kiddy talk but from the numbers you cut and paste, what is your deductive reasoning on how the company (Honda/Acura) is doing? Build a model and let me know.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    edited June 2013
    billy - i've done enuf of the kiddy talk, the numbers I cut and past are the numbers you requested so... why dont you present a case and do some research.. like the article above that stated HMC took GOVT money- but you have yet to respond to that, its almost like you just said it to say it, which i guess is ok but I would like to know the true facts, which i supplied. This is a car chat while I can run thru the business side of this I can also show facts about car sales and trends, car rag articles that dispute M3s claim it a One Car fix, which I have.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,040
    edited June 2013
    no i mentioned that above but please feel free to drop those numbers on me.

    I didn't make the wild statements about Acura making little to no profit and may be on a real downward spiral, you did. In order to know that you would have to know margins. Knowing discounts means nothing without knowing the original markup. It's just like volume...it means nothing unless you can make a good buck at it.

    no but why didnt they chaange it earlier- like they did the civic of 2012??
    Ummhh...they screwed up. That's the car I was referring to that they have to change drastically and it needs to be a winner. However, even if they don't get it absolutely perfect the sky is not going to fall. Sorry.

    I think you could make some of the same comments about Infiniti. I love Infiniti but they have pulled some real boners too. And some of their models are real low in the sales numbers but they seem to plugging along fairly well without the huge sales numbers....just like Acura. Acura may be doing even better because their SUV sales are better than Infiniti's and that's where a ton of profit is. Just like Ford and GM with their trucks/suvs. Not saying it's the best of all worlds but as far as making profit it works pretty well.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,185
    Acura may be doing even better because their SUV sales are better than Infiniti's and that's where a ton of profit is what are the numbers, the profit you speak of?? you are saying they are making big profits but have yet to produce one number.. i present sales numbers you mock and are wild statements? Volume tells a story - its black and white - when they sell 350 RLs it tells a story - reasons car companies produce cars its to SELL CARS-- On the infinti thing for sure they have made mistakes-.
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