Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

robr2 · August 2013

I saw an article last week...maybe just a blurb about the recent uptick in the U.S. auto industry, so can't remember the source. But, it went on to state that the new Lexus ES350, with supposedly more sporting pretensions, is suffering a significant sales decline, with the new model.

Not trying to do a call out but that blurb doesn't make sense as ES sales are up almost 80% year over year:

http://lexusenthusiast.com/2013/08/01/lexus-july-2013-sales-report/

robr2 · August 2013

I don't disagree that leather should be in a $40K car, but in an entry level luxury performance sedan, it's fine IMHO.

The real issue is that $40K is now BMW entry level....

m6user · August 2013

What does any of this have to do with ELPS besides the fact that it's just TMI to begin with?

mrminsky1 · August 2013

Leather SHOULD BE STANDARD at this price point.....otherwise it "ain't" luxury. I drove the new 328i when looking at my new TL, and I was not impressed to say the least. At least not for $46K......I also drove a LOADED 2011 328i CPO with 16K miles and I walked away thinking , "wow for $31K (asking) , I can purchased the better 328i. Darn, that is a lot of depreciation for a two year old car"

I honestly believe these 320i are being marketed to those people who want to be seeing in a BMW. $40 Grand is a lot of money for what you get. I think the new Mercedes is priced even better. Not to mention my TL or my old G37. I can't imagine these 320i are selling well and I wonder how the new 328i are selling when compared to old ones

dino001 · August 2013

Benz has the same problems, or even worse. Their leather is even more expensive and even fewer C-class cars have it. The MB-Tex, or whatever it is called is a nice fake leather, so dealers order majority of those C250 and even C300, or C350 with those seats. At least in case of 328 and 335, majority get premium package, which has leather. Kind of sad. I'm hoping that when the novelty wears off, which should be soon enough, in couple of years they'll start adding leather as one of those "no cost options", or at some lower price, call it "value package", or similar. Something like that seems to be going on already in other areas, most cars get "build credit", which I'm not sure what it means, but smells to me like a simple cash rebate.

tlong · August 2013

At least in case of 328 and 335, majority get premium package, which has leather. Kind of sad. I'm hoping that when the novelty wears off, which should be soon enough, in couple of years they'll start adding leather as one of those "no cost options", or at some lower price, call it "value package", or similar.

I doubt it. This is BMW's business model. They lure you in with (relatively) reasonable base prices, but EVERYTHING is an additional cost option. One of the reasons I bought an A4 years ago rather than the BMW of the time was that the Audi had a lot of things standard. on the BMW: leather - extra cost; certain paints - extra cost; even a folding rear seat - extra cost.

dino001 · August 2013

Well, it actually happened to a degree in the second half of E9x series. They had number of accommodations, like no-cost automatic (it was $1000, IIRC when it started) and at the very end leather became complimentary no-cost option (part of value package). This was last year or two, though, I think if I remember it correctly. BTW, folding rear seat became standard on 328 and 335 (woohoo!). It is still $500 option on 320.

robr2 · August 2013

I honestly believe these 320i are being marketed to those people who want to be seeing in a BMW.

You don't have to believe that's the case because it is the case. I'd guess that more than 90% of BMW sales are to those who care mostly about the badge. The roundel could be placed onto a Corolla and they could sell them for $35K.

dino001 · August 2013

The roundel could be placed onto a Corolla and they could sell them for $35K.

I don't think that's fair, but it is not as unfair, as I would like it to be.

mrminsky1 · August 2013

The New Mercedes I was thinking of is the CLA which will be front wheel drive vehicle and priced at about $34K nicely equipped . I do not have anything against BMW other that their pricing model which is is absolutely ridiculous. many of their models are indeed fun driving machines. However, I would only buy one as a CPO with the idea of driving it for a few years or a killer lease, Anyone who pays $35K and up for a 320i will be taking a bath later on. If I am looking at a premium brand, will take a TL , A G37, or a Lexus any day depending on on the kind of ride desire. Every time I have walk into a BMW to look at any of their SUV or Cars , I always walked away thinking how little you get for the money.

Even the new MAZDA 6 probably drives better than the 320i for $15K less.......

dino001 · August 2013

I don't think CLA is in direct competition with 3-series. Doesn't mean people wouldn't cross shop them, of course, but those cars are quite apart, in size, price, target demographics. For price sensitive badge buyers, CLA will probably win. For all I know, it may actually be a nice car. BMW doesn't really have anything like CLA at the moment. Going FWD by Benz is a sign of new times. They get to build something cheaper and better fuel economy, all at once. Unimaginable just 10 years ago, but with new nanny state, both here and in Old Continent. Who knows, we may see FWD diesel S-class in a few years (wink).

robr2 · August 2013

No, the CLA isn't in direct competition with the 3 series. The new 1 series FWD will be the competition along with the A3.

michaellno · August 2013

Even the new MAZDA 6 probably drives better than the 320i for $15K less.......

A loaded Mazda 6 will exceed $30K easily but will probably have far more tech on it than the 320i.

But, the 185HP of the 6 is more than the 180HP of the 320i. And, better mileage as well.

mrminsky1 · August 2013

THE CLA will be direct competition in the sense that it will be crossed shopped by the consumer. The consumers buying these cars do not care about the "performance" of the car other than being able to get "the badge" . They do not care and will probably not know the the differences between FWD and RWD. My mother in law drives a C250 and she has no clue whether her car is a FWD or RWD. She only cares about the fact that it is a Mercedes and she was able to get one for $35K. My wife has no clue that my old G37 was a RWD vs my curent FWD car.... She knows that I used to own an A6 and BMW530i and to her, my old G37 and current Acura are no longer in the same category. It does not matter both of these Germans cars were the most unreliable cars I ever owned. Fun to drive , Yes. Fun to own, NO. My mother in law, my wife, and my 27 year niece are the kind of consumers they are looking for.

The so call "enthusiast" will never consider one of these vehicles. As I gotten older, I have come to appreciate a good luxury brand as well, but I have become more practical as well. I appreciate a good car , but I am not longer driving the cars they way I used when I was in my twenties and thirties. I am now 48, and pushing the car to its limits or driving the car in two wheels is no longer at the top of my list.....I will stick with Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus offers. Lots of content, history of reliability, decent driven dynamics, and excellent value for what you can get

I am intrigue to see what Mercedes can do with the CLA. I can not wait to drive one. I really want to see what a FWD entry German car will drive like.....

flightnurse · August 2013

The entry point for BMW 3 series is $33K for a base 320i. In Phoenix, the dealers have many 320's new, at $34K What is sad really is, BMW is trying to be like the other car companies who are trying to be like BMW. We all know that BMW only imports the top level cars, why do we need leatherette, isn't cloth seats good enough? BMW success at balancing luxury with sport is the problem. People NOW expect leather, Nav, moonroofs, and all the elec gadgets in "ELSP" cars. I wish BMW would drop the "L" in the ELSP and make their 320i a Entry Level Sport Sedan, drop the Premium package and add a true M sport package, with the E90 steering feel, have it with a manual or Auto. Forget Nav too. But we all know BMW wont do it and people in their forum know that BMW wont do it. It seems people aren't willing to except the fact that the BMW that we all knew isn't the BMW of today.

What I find interesting is, people are comparing their BMW's that they built to a 328i that the dealer ordered as a loaner, can't compare apples and oranges.

dino001 · August 2013

There are German FWD cars on the market already, such as VW, Audi. I understand what you mean about cross shopping, I even pointed that nobody can stop people from considering different products as similar. I really meant to say 328 or 335 are not likely be in CLA competition, but you're right, 320 will probably be. It might in fact kill 320, depending on how it drives and how it is equipped. There will also be AWD version, as well, which makes it directly comparable to 320xi.
I understand your point on FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD oblvion in so-called average buyer, non-enthusiast. It is true we sometimes read too many magazines and koolaid websites then we project that as actual mindset.

dino001 · August 2013

Did you mean accept? I did that comparison you mentioned, but just for the stuff that's common, such as engine, steering, console look, switches, etc. Those don't change. I'm not complaining about the fact they ordered leatherette, I am just noting that BMW does sell $40K+ car with such standard (yes, even 335 still has leather optional).

Your wish on no frills true performance car may be something interesting, but I bet it wouldn't sell, not at prices they want to charge. My biggetst beef with the so called average buyer is that they look at 3 series or some other sports sedan and complain it's too small in the back seat, or suspension is too hard, or steering too heavy, to which the company responds by turning it into a Buick. If I wanted soft, roomy, superquiet family sedan, I'd buy Lexus or Buick.

graphicguy · August 2013

robr2...you're probably right. Call out is necessary here given it was actually a source that I read in passing, and not one that I recall. Could have mis-read, or it could have been an "anti-Lexus" post with little cred.

I probably skimmed it (which I'm known to do to skip over what is really unnteresting to me) and didn't catch the entire meaning of it.

Good "call out"!

Interesting looking at the figures....the GS redesign looks to be tanking. Here I thought that was Lexus' most appealing offering (at least to me).

graphicguy · August 2013

mrminsky...couldn't agree with you're assessment any more.

Any time I go to the EU, it always seems I get stuck with a "stripper diesel" from the rental agencies. Plus, you see a whole lot of diesels on the road. Granted, gasoline costs 2X-3X what it costs in the U.S. And, most cars there are teeny cars compared to here in the U.S. because most roads in the cities are little more than alleys (no, I do not have any sort of desire to drive a small car every day....let the Europeans do that).

So, the desires of the U.S. market are quite different than those in Europe. Plus, at least up until now, the Germans have been able to get what they're charging for "premium" cars with lots of options.

I've liked the BMWs I've owned. I like the Audi I now have. I will say, it's been a long time since I've had a car as troublesome as the Audi, though.

The fact that BMW is really going in a direction where the price is going up, but the performance and the quality of the materials (i.e. letherette vs leather) is going down, makes me want to look elsewhere for my next vehicle in 18-24 months.

I think the real value in the Lexus, Acura, etc, with their reliability, high quality, is becoming more apparent to me, as well as more appealing....expecially at their price points.

markcincinnati · August 2013

In July the one Cincinnati Infinti dealership had a "special preview" of the new Q50 -- they offered up finger foods, wine, soft drinks and a complimentary gift of Infiniti wine glasses and a Q50 key-ring that contained a USB drive with lots of free space to spare after the Q50 advert.

The car in question -- which we could look at but not drive -- was a fully maxed out version; I'd expect it to have an MSRP of just south of $54K.

The Infiniti "factory rep" was, naturally, on hand to welcome the "faithful" and to regale us with stories about the recent head-to-head comparison that Infiniti pulled together, pitting the Q50 against like-priced Audi A4's and BMW 3's. Now, if you have priced yourself at $53K, the competition in this group could be pretty formidable; or would it?

Well, the content is where these vehicles part company quickly. If you backed off on the $3,200 Infiniti "technology" (high nanny content) package, you are able to see why Infiniti is confident that if you shopped these three vehicles on PRICE, that the Infiniti would out-content the two Germans. If you configured these cars similarly on features and options, the Infinti again edges out the German rivals since it would come in at a price advantage.

Infiniti is selling value -- or so it seems -- wrapped up in a capable of keeping up with (and the Infiniti rep claimed, beating) the German offerings on the track. Any way you cut it where price and/or configuration was used to come up with "similar," the Infiniti wins.

Naturally, Infiniti wants you to compare the Q50 to the A4 and 3-series based on price -- the Germans just seem to have bloated MSRPs when compared with the Q50.

OK, now I've driven the Q50 AWD Premium, Sport. There is no way I'd kick this thing out of bed for eating crackers -- I'd probably bring the crackers, in fact. This car is seriously nice (albeit still a bit on the small side, inside -- considering its wheelbase).

The compelling argument isn't that the Q50 elevates Infiniti to making the BMW be called "the German Infiniti," not yet anyway. The compelling argument is that despite my personal issues with the way the options have been grouped into bloated packages, the Q50 at $50K seems to offer so much more car (content, at least; performance can be argued, however) for the money. I understand why Infiniti wants to position comparisons to its rivals based on price.

Of course, a new Q50 here in our market can be leased for $399 per month, which further underscores the value prop.

Typically (or "often") I read car comparos where the cars are configured to be close in features and specifications -- but often without any price parity. Then, the comparos are made, the points tallied and a winner emerges. Sometimes there will be a nod to price when there is a second tallying up of the points under the heading of "price dependent."

If you put an Audi A4 2.0T SLine together, it can easily zip right past $50K -- and we all know how easily that can be done with a 4-cylinder BMW 3 series, too. If the Q50S -- at a price point -- is test driven against the two Germans, at the same price point, I'll wager that today's most desirable customer -- the Millennials -- will go for the Q50 time and time again -- assuming they don't also try a new KIA Cadenza which is, as Car and Driver says: "The Cadenza is Kia's first legitimate offering in the near-luxury segment, and it's a good one."

The Millennials will certainly "Like" the choices in front of them -- assuming they care about cars, which is not a foregone conclusion.

Someone here said something nice about the new Mazda 6 -- the Germans better watch out, their Brand Equity may be in some peril.

Drive it like you live.

michaellno · August 2013

Someone here said something nice about the new Mazda 6 -- the Germans better watch out, their Brand Equity may be in some peril.

That might have been me. While I haven't driven the Mazda 6, or the 320i, or the G37/Q50, I suspect that the gap between 'regular' brands and 'premium' brands is shrinking.

My best friends sister is looking for a new car .. her Mazda Protege died after 220K miles. He was thinking she should get an Acura TL. I suggested either a Honda Accord or Mazda 6 - the tech is almost as good for much less money.

What, exactly, are you getting with your mid-$30's BMW 320i versus a loaded Mazda 6 at $32K or so? More tech in the Mazda. Real leather. Similar HP (180 for the BMW; 185 for the Mazda). Better mileage (38 MPG hwy for the Mazda).

Oh, that's right - the blue and white roundel on the hood.

I think there are still some BMW's worth owning .. personally, I wouldn't mind having a 128i in the garage - 6 cyl, RWD, classic BMW. But, the new 4-cyl turbos? Er, not so much.

dino001 · August 2013

I think there are still some BMW's worth owning .. personally, I wouldn't mind having a 128i in the garage - 6 cyl, RWD, classic BMW

You know, it got me thinking. BMWs that are worth having are either the one you mentioned or all those trully high priced models, top of the line of each model, like 335, 550, M, etc. You pay up and it is not for everybody's pocket, mine either, BTW. However, those models at least deliver on the promise at arguably too high price, but they deliver nevertheless. All those entry level models, like 320s, 328 with leatherette, 528i are nice, but fall short on almost every possible metric, from value, to performance, to equipment. To me they represent even less value than those upper models with overpriced options on them. I wouldn't buy every option, but getting this thing without HID lights, sports seats, or some other conveniences simply does not make sense to me at all. Four cylinder turbo in 328 is at least quick, even if rough. Not sure how 320 performs, but they drop 70 hp out of it and get only 2 mpg extra on highway. Seems like a terrible tradeoff to me. However, I guess for the right price, one could still be OK with it. Perhaps the 320 will also be more durable, but that is only to be seen in the future, no guarantees or figures to support such hypothesis.

Those 528, 320, even 328 to certain extent are basically badge lease "stay below X/month" "aspirational" buyer products. To me it's a clear cut - if I buy one, it has to be a good one, not a half baked badge. If one looks for a true value, go with Infiniti or Acura and they should be happy. The entry level compromises from Munich or Stuttgart are not that great, IMHO - only their rich brothers are worth something.

michaellno · August 2013

I got my license in 1979 and graduated HS in 1982 .. just as the whole "yuppie mystique" started. BMW's were always a brand I aspired to. Unfortunately, I've never been at a point where I could spend the money to buy or lease one.

Now, however, I'm not sure how much love I feel for them. I find it hard to spend $40K+ on a car and get less equipment than you can get on something that's $10K less.

It's my opinion that the x20i and x28i models are for those exactly as you state .. for those who want the Roundel at a specific price point. BMW, like most manufacturers, are trying to expand the size of their clientele. For BMW (and MB and Audi), the only direction they can go, socio-economically, is down. Hence the 320i and the CLA and the 1/2-series and the new A3 sedan.

Which will compete against the top line versions of the Accord, Mazda 6, Altima, etc. The value proposition just isn't there.

And, really, is it a good business strategy to expand a premium product by going down-market?

fedlawman · August 2013

The difference between a 320i and a Mazda6 is in the way it drives. I agree the 320i is overpriced, but the bottom line is - drive the Mazda and BMW back toback and you will see why BMW is still the one to beat.

fedlawman · August 2013

@NYC - yup, $40K for a 320 is crazy stupid. That's a car that will be leased 90% of the time I suspect.

@Graphic - The "Ultimate Driving Event" was at BMW Northwest in Tacoma (Fife, actually). I've already gotten half a dozen e-mails from the dealer offering incentives and assistance in buying my new BMW...lol.

These new BMWs are very nice cars. They just aren't very nice BMWs.

michaellno · August 2013

I agree the 320i is overpriced, but the bottom line is - drive the Mazda and BMW back to back and you will see why BMW is still the one to beat.

I'll grant you that the Mazda is FWD and the BMW is RWD. Lots of folks have posted that the latest generation 3-series is 'softer' than those that came before it, while the Mazda still has the 'zoom zoom' personality.

The gap is closing, and folks who are shopping on brand image probably won't notice the difference. The hard core fans who frequent these forums will.

fedlawman · August 2013

It's not a FWD / RWD thing. It's the dynamics. BMWs have steadily drifted away from sport, but to drive one down the road you can still feel that German suspension doing its magic and the driveline refinement that no other sedan can match. BMW isnt what it used to be, but no other car rides/drives/handles like a BMW...still.

flightnurse · August 2013

Dino, we all know that BMW wouldn't make a no frills sport sedan, there is no money in those, and I'm sure they wouldn't sell many of them. BMW has abandon the people who made them who they are today. That is why if you really want a 3 series that was fun to drive, you go back to the E46 as some of the BMW purist will say.

I think BMW could make all people happy, they could build a 320i or 328i or 335i, with the old ZPH package. Increase HP, give the steering the feel of the E46, M sport suspension, seats, short throw shiftier without all the fluff. This would make the auto enthusiasts happy and the badge wearers happy and keep cost in check.

ivan_99 · August 2013

"but no other car rides/drives/handles like a BMW...still."

Most publications, specifically C&D, would disagree with you. I believe the 3 series finished dead last in handling (by a wide margin).

I haven't driven any of these recent incarnations so I don't have any personal experience...

fedlawman · August 2013

I'm not talking about numbers. I'm taking about "Gestalt."

flightnurse · August 2013

"If you put an Audi A4 2.0T SLine together, it can easily zip right past $50K -- and we all know how easily that can be done with a 4-cylinder BMW 3 series, too. "

Mark, lately I have been leaning more towards an Audi then a BMW, simply because of price, I have built on Audi's a very nice (to me) A4, Premium Plus, 6 spd manual, Sport package, B&O sound system, read thoaix (thoracic) air bags, and MMI for $45K, if push comes to shove I could do without the MMI and have the price $42K. This to me is a bargain in this segment, now your price of 50K is for a top of line A4, which only comes with the 8 spd Tiptronic which is a great transmission. I think AUdi has a edge over BMW when it comes price, I can't build a 328i for 42K and get the options I get on the Audi or for 45K either. BMW will have to do something in regards to it's price, granted, the "badge" people will only follow for so long before the price is too high an start looking else where.

Graphic has talked about issues with his S4, which has me some what cautious about pulling the trigger on a A5 (I don't need a sedan.)

flightnurse · August 2013

Ivan the BMW finished dead last against other sport sedan, not a Mazda 6. I would love a car mag to do a comparison between 32x and a top level mazda 6... I would assume the BMW would win...

kyfdx · August 2013

I've got to find out why I'm not getting invitations to the Infiniti events!!

Free food is right up my alley...

graphicguy · August 2013

You guys make some really good points. Fed, don't know why, but I thought you lived near me. Thanks for the input.

Mark....I really couldn't agree any more with your assessment.

FN....don't let me scare you away from Audi. I really like the car. It's been a long, long time since I've had to go to the dealership as much as I have with the Audi, however. That said, they do their best (at least the one furthest from me does their best) to ease any inconvenience I have to endure.

And, as all of you state....the new BMWs are good cars. They just aren't good BMWs. We'll see how this plays out for them. Personally, no way, no how I'd pay $40K plus for a 320i. Going to the other spectrum, no way, no how, I'd pay high $50s for a 335ix.

So, I guess their sweet spot is the 328ix. But, even there, you're knocking on the $50K door, optioned up.

There are a lot of cars that will be well within the performance ball park of those BMWs for a lot less money.

That's where the Acuras and Infinitis start to make more sense.

Even the new MB CLA or the Caddy ATS look better than a 320i.

Maybe the new 4 series would lure me in. Then again, I'm sure that's going to be priced higher than the 3.

Maybe BMW isn't looking for that repeat buyer. Maybe they just want the new buyer in the hopes that as they get older they'll have no issues keeping them in the brand's family. So many of us former owners making a change for something else, though.

Wonder, what exactly, they're trying to do?

graphicguy · August 2013

kyfdx....you have to incessantly stop by their showrooms to get these invites to the new car rollouts. Of course, as Mark states, you also have to be willing to get a barrage of "special offers" once you attend one of those.

They must know I'm not a fan of Infiniti, because I didn't get an invite, either. That said, I'm certain I'm in their database, given as many times as I've been in their showroom trying to find something I like.

dino001 · August 2013

Wonder, what exactly, they're trying to do?

It's called money, market share, cashing out, responding to popular demand. How many times you heard people complaining that 3-series (or A4, or C-class) was too small inside, rode too harsh, had too heavy steering. For majority of people bigger car is a better car, one they can justify spending more money (especially in sedan category), also good road feedback is interpreted as faults in design. So the logic seems like this: BMW knows they (still) have a REPUTATION of sporty car with great image and as you know being sporty and young is everything in media world. However, the true sport is unpallatable for people who have no concept of why car actually moves forward and back. They know there is an engine, because that's the part making noise, but other parts of vehicle, like transmission, suspension, drive shafts, etc. are more like Klingon or Suahilli to them. So BMW knows it is pointless to convince Joe the Doctor, or especially his entitled wife, son, or daughter (it could also be Jane the Lawyer, to make it gender equal) that sporty cars need to be smaller, driver a bit harder and use more fuel. It's easier to change the car and still market it, like it were once removed from Formula 1 or Le Mans. "Everybody" wins - Joe/Jane (and their family) get a "sporty" car, BMW gets a fat check.

The people who actually gave that image and advocated it to Jane/Joe don't really matter, they are minority and in BMWs view have nowhere to go, anyway. Of course, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura beg to differ, but nobody listened so far. However, more and more people seem to be tuning in and who can blame them. If you can get car that's not that different for (sometimes much) less and you even get extra ponies, or better reliability, or "stuff" inside, why hold onto something that's no longer so special.

rayainsw · August 2013

'They know there is an engine, because that's the part making noise...'
LOL - best statement I have read here is a while...
- Ray
Soon to be divested of my BMW...

nyccarguy · August 2013

As the prices of these "new" ELLPS keeps going up & their driving experiences (according to us car nuts) keeps diminishing, some of our favorite vehicles to discuss here will be coming off of their short term, blow out leases at prices in the mid $20K to low $30K. As we all say, a lot of these cars are "worn" and not driven will still be under factory warranty as well as having some sort of CPO coverage. Imagine the possibilities for the price of a fully loaded Camcord you could have a 326 hp G37X, a 335d with 425 lb/ft of torque, a C300 Sport 4Matic with an electronically controlled adaptive suspension, a TL SH-AWD with its torque vectoring rear differential... All with what? 20 - 25K miles.

ivan_99 · August 2013

heh...yes the 3 would probably win against the Mazda 6.

My comment wasn't specifically in regards to the Mazda 6 but in reference to "but no other car rides/drives/handles like a BMW...still".

I haven't driven anything recently; last 3 series was a 335i coupe 3-4 years ago...and the previous gen Mazda 6 when it first came out. I thought that Mazda 6 lost in handling when compared against a VW CC...so the 3 was definitely the winner back then.

andres3 · August 2013

I really want to see what a FWD entry German car will drive like.....

Go drive an Audi A3. I seriously doubt the others can do a FWD performance entry level luxury car as well. If you hate sport backs/hatches/wagons, wait one more year for the new A3/S3 sedans to come out that will blow away the competition. Of course, they are going to be slightly smaller than your C250/3-series offerings, but still bigger than a 1-series. They say the CLA is bigger than C series; strange... hope it's not heavier.

I've looked very closely and detailedly at all the available sport sedans in the 35K to 50K range (including new Accord and 6 for good measure), and I can tell you that you get a lot of value and bang for your buck at Audi. There is simply a lot of cost cutting I saw in the '13 G37 and '14 ATS, even more than what you see in a '09 335i.

To show you how far down BMW has sunk, the BMW of San Diego dealer either had zero or one single 335i models in stock, and I don't think it's because they were selling like hot cakes. He said it would take him 20 minutes to "go get" and show me the only one he had, and I was like no thanks. They had plenty of 320 and 328's. I built a 335i with quite a lot of options on the website for about $45K, not sure why people would get 328 or 320 if that was accurate, guess that proves they are badge buyers.

The S4 is the most expensive car I looked at, but it was also the best, and it had the least amount of noticeable cost cutting/bean counter penny pinching moves. I'd say Acura TL comes in 2nd in that regard close with BMW. Next Lexus, then Infinity, and worst is ATS. Admittedly, the G37 is an old design, and it shows (all of the competition's interiors have exceeded it handily; not just Audi's). I didn't even look at the Q50 because when I asked the salesman what was new, he listed a whole lot of NANNY Driver automation features, a slew of gadgets that had nothing to do with improving the car's fun driving experience, and offered nothing else (okay, 2 more HP; big whoopee). Not one new feature interested me whatsoever, as I can drive just fine without the driver assistance gimmicks. Amazingly, he said all the new gizmo's didn't raise the price; which he later admitted was probably about $5K off from being accurate.

Want examples of cost cutting shames?

1) In the ATS and G37 the moon roof cover felt like a piece of cardboard with extremely poor fit and finish. It slides loosely all around, left and right, up and down as you move it from open to closed.

2) I believe both (100% on G37) forget to put any door sill trim piece on the rear doors. Infinity has an upgrade option where you can get a lit up Infinity nameplate on your aluminum door sill at the front, but even with that extra cost option, you just get a black plastic sill plate on the rear.

3) Check out the trunk lining and finishing.

4) Brake calipers are at front instead of the more weight balanced rear of the rotor (TL, G37 included)

5) Why can Audi (and even low cost VW) get rid of the ugly roof rail seams/joints black plastic, but BMW, MB, Acura, and Infinity can't? BMW at least paints/colors the trim plastic to match the body, the others don't even bother. I guess this is why everyone has 2 or 3 versions of black and it's so popular a color?

6) If you haven't developed a dual clutch auto-manual transmission, you are behind the times power-train wise. All the other auto transmissions are just gimmicky with shift paddles, S-modes, and all that non-sense. If it isn't a direct shift gearbox that uses a clutch, then don't pretend to be; it's like fake hood scoops or something. Once you go DSG, it's tough to live with anything else. Next best is Honda's new CVT which doesn't feel like a CVT; even better than TL's 6-speed. Even 8 gears doesn't change the fact a slushbox is still a slush-box :sick:

The CLA has the most promise in AWD AMG tuning, but I'm sure it'll cost a fortune based on C63 prices.

andres3 · August 2013

Is the 320i FWD? I ask because I don't know. If it's RWD, then I'd say it's got an advantage over the Mazda 6. Probably a weight advantage since it's smaller too. That being said, if I could get a brand new 335i for $45K that would be the way to go. 328i should be $35K well equipped.

I actually recently test drove the latest versions of the TL-SH-AWD Tech, Lexus IS 350 (RWD), S4, ATS (2.0 and 3.6), G37S Sedan, Mazda 6, Accord sport, and used '09 335i since BMW doesn't carry them in stock new apparently.

If I was rating them on just driving fun, excitement, and pleasure (blocking out everything else, ranking is as follows:

1) Audi S4
2) 335i (6-speed auto; impressive for used car '09 37K miles)
3) Virtual Tie with TL-SH-AWD and G37S, I'd have to test drive both back to back again to pick, but with a gun to my head slight nod to G37S.
5) Well behind the top 4, but just barely ahead of #6 and #7 on this list, IS 350 F-Sport RWD and non-F sport (didn't make much difference).
6) Accord sport CVT
7) Mazda 6 touring (19" wheels, 6-speed auto).

stickguy · August 2013

320i is RWD. Basically a detuned, decontented 328i "loss leader"

andres3 · August 2013

Graphic's S4 issues are with a 2013 model, I'm betting and guessing that Audi will have worked out all the kinks and quirks by the 2014 model since it's the 4th year of a model run and the 5th year for the A4 platform it's based on.

In fact, I'm betting a lot, as I just made an offer on one at an Audi dealer, and they accepted it! 50K for a custom ordered just the way I want it, nothing I don't, lightly optioned S4 MSRP comes out to $54,095 (I should have it in 3 months). A tremendously great bargain and I'm actually surprised they said yes so quickly to the deal. Every S4 you find at the dealer is optioned up to the gills from $55K to $61K MSRP which makes them very expensive (go with less options, more car). Never understood features or gadgets causing someone to get an ultra optioned up A4 over a less optioned up S4 at similar prices.

If all you want is features and gadgets, why not just get a Korean car? MMI is nearly $4K after taxes, why not just mount a laptop or IPAD in the car for 1/4 the cost? The options are definitely where they are making their money and profit. I want more car value for my money, not more bells and whistles. My $50K + is going for the S4, not an A4.

But I agree, Audi's are a bargain at every price point from what I've seen of the competition and their prices.

Options I got had everything to do with either the looks or the drive of the car:

S4 Base = $48,000 + $895 Destination

1) Misano Red Pearl Paint $500
2) S-Tronic Dual Clutch Auto-Manual $1500
3) Sport Rear Differential $1,100
4) Bang & Olufsen (since I'm kind of an Audiophile, and it was a bargain stand-alone upgrade) $850
5) Full Complete Fine Nappa Leather Interior Seats, trim, door armrests, and contrasting stitching all around, in Magma Red inserts (this was the only and last option I wasn't sure on and had a big debate on whether it was worth the price increase; I believe it is after investigation in person, and I'm not a huge leather fan, but I like the contrasting color options and fine detail improvements, in addition to the leather material being better quality with this package). $1,250

I admit this is way below TMV and a tremendous amount of car for the money if you ask me.

andres3 · August 2013

I think someone would get a TL over the admittedly awesome new Accord for the following reasons:

1) TL has a nicer quieter more luxurious interior.
2) TL TECH has a sound system 100X better than Accord's
3) TL can be had with SH-AWD which makes it a track-able car; whereas I doubt I'll ever see someone take out even a 280 HP V6 Accord with FWD. The 4 cylinder Accord Sport tops the Mazda 6 by 4 HP even; still, I seriously doubt I'll see someone track one.

Really the differences amount to the sophistication of the drive train, FWD vs. RWD or AWD, the suspension tuning and refinement is huge (although the ATS lacks that), the bigger better brakes, the extra HP (although BMW likes to break that rule), and less de-contenting/cost cutting measures you can see.

kyfdx · August 2013

"kyfdx....you have to incessantly stop by their showrooms to get these invites to the new car rollouts. Of course, as Mark states, you also have to be willing to get a barrage of "special offers" once you attend one of those. "

Uh... I bought a car from them..... shouldn't that be enough?

flightnurse · August 2013

"To show you how far down BMW has sunk, the BMW of San Diego dealer either had zero or one single 335i models in stock, and I don't think it's because they were selling like hot cakes. He said it would take him 20 minutes to "go get" and show me the only one he had, and I was like no thanks. They had plenty of 320 and 328's. I built a 335i with quite a lot of options on the website for about $45K, not sure why people would get 328 or 320 if that was accurate, guess that proves they are badge buyers. "

I read this, this AM, and after finishing work, I drove over to SD BMW I happen to be in Kearny Mesa today, they have 3 335i Convertibles new , and 3 335i sedans all MSRP 53K, converts cough... 63K.... In regards to your building 335i online for 45K with quite a lot of options, what options, the cars base MSRP with Delivery is $44K add sport package and you are at 46K...

I found it interesting that BMW mecca (SoCal) they don't have more 335i's, SD BMW has about 90 328i's, ranging from 35K all the way up to 51K, and many 320is in the 35K range. Lots of X1's and X5's on the lot, it seems that in San Diego, 328i's, X1's, and X5's sell pretty well.

flightnurse · August 2013

"Graphic's S4 issues are with a 2013 model, I'm betting and guessing that Audi will have worked out all the kinks and quirks by the 2014 model since it's the 4th year of a model run and the 5th year for the A4 platform it's based on. "

I'm looking at used A5's, however, I have eyed a couple used S5's. San Diego Audi has no S5's, which I was surprised. For this trip I have a 2014 328i as a rental, I'm surprised it has premium and sport package. The ride is typical German, firm yet controlled, steering is too light for me, but over all, not bad.

nyccarguy · August 2013

Congrats on ordering your car the way you want it & not just picking something for $50K off the lot! I know you track your A3, so I'm sure you'll have an absolute blast in your S4

graphicguy · August 2013

Andres...congrats. The S4 is a very nice car.

Yours is almost equipped the same as mine. I didn't go for the metalic paint (mine is Ibis White). I didn't opt for the "fancier" leather, either.

Everything else is the same, however.

Yours has to be coming in just a bit north of $55K MSRP, right? I don't remember exact numbers, but being an Audi supplier, we were able to buy the car for 6% off MSRP. Audi doesn't seem to rebate or subsidize leases like BMW does.

Problems aside, you're going to have fun with it. BTW, supposedly mine is done tomorrow, after Audi having it a week. It's supposed to be totally cured of all its ills. We'll see.

FN....as scarce as S4s are, S5s are even scarcer. And, I can't for the life of me see why there is such a price difference between the two. Yes, the S5 is a coupe, with slightly different body work from the S4. But, the chasis and drivetrain are the same. The interior is the same. The features/options are the same. Yet, I haven't seen one S5 (of the few new ones I've seen) with an MSRP under $60K.

Funny thing about the 335i. You'd be hard pressed to find much of a selection of them, anywhere you look. I don't know why either. Yes, it can be optioned up to $60K (which puts it on par, options-wise, to a $55K S4). A stripper 335i, if you could find one, might be available for $45K. But, good luck finding one of those.

To me, just the mere fact that the 335i has a much sweeter 6 cyl than the 4 cyl in the F30s might be worth the price delta. Still, the price vs performance equation seems to be tilting precipitously towards the price end of the scale. That's not a good thing.

ray....any particular reason why you're dumping your BMW? Where are you focusing your attention for its replacement?

rayainsw · August 2013

'ray....any particular reason why you're dumping your BMW? Where are you focusing your attention for its replacement? '

Several reasons, but many have been posted by others here.
BMW seems to be moving toward greater & greater volume -
at the expense of the enthusiast drivers, that helped build
their reputation.
I bought a 2013 VW GTI - DSG.
[ I know... ]
And I am very happy with it, so far, at just past 1,000 miles.
- Ray
Enjoyed that straight 6 - a lot....

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