Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dhanley · April 2004

"Say what? My 35 series tires on my 330i tramline like crazy."

Yeah--they're 35 series! I didn't say what direction the correlation was, i figured it was obvious.

riez · April 2004

kahunah... There is a huge difference between the complete absence of something and being largely devoid of that something. The former has none of it while the latter still does.

A bit like deciding whether to worry upon entering a building that was labelled largely devoid of anthrax.

As C&D and others have written, the torque steer issue is most problematic with MANUAL TRANSMISSON TLs. By its very nature, the slushbox works to amelieorate much, though not all, of the inherent torque steer.

blueguydotcom · April 2004

Does you ZHP have a staggered setup? I've been told that staggered tire sizes increase tramlining. While I can't say for sure if this is true or not, I do notice that my staggered 8-month setup (245/40r and 225/45f) tramlines MUCH worse than my non-staggered winter setup (225/45's on all corners). Other factors that may play into this are; softer sidewalls on winter package, different tread patterns/materials, that extra inch of tread width on the rears during the summer may be just enough to catch more edges in the road... maybe a combination of them or maybe none at all.

They are staggered, so that may play a role in it.

blueguydotcom · April 2004

By its very nature, the slushbox works to amelieorate much, though not all, of the inherent torque steer.

not to mention its negative impact on fun too.

raher · April 2004

Most of what ends up getting posted these days is the same subjects and opinions that were being discussed a month ago...torque steer, my car is faster than your car, handles better, is prettier, etc etc etc
I took a five hour road trip to Eastern Washington and back to play golf today and to just drive my TL. Great road to drive leading up to a mountain pass and through a gorgeous canyon with a river running next to the road. The TL is such a nice road car. I wasn't throwing it around as some do mostly because the road is notorious for state police and sure enough they were out at 7:00 AM when I was driving over. Sun was up at 7:00 and I drove home in 80 degree temperatures. I really got a dose of what a near luxury sport sedan is about.
The car is extremely comfortable, great sound system, fun to drive fast when you can and I got 30 miles per gallon coming home because there was enough traffic you couldn't really drive fast. I didn't feel any torque steer and I was doing 80 through some of the corners going over in the morning.
There surely are some differences in the cars being discussed here but the numbers are so small as to be almost inconsequential in most cases (.89 versus .90 skidpad..5.6 versus 5.8 0-60)
I believe the kind of driving I did today is the true measure of a near luxury sport sedan because I think it represents the kind of driving that 99% of the people who own these cars actually do. I am sure that my trip would have been just as enjoyable in a 330I or a G or an IS 300. I just happen to own a TL and today I was really pleased that I do.

kahunah · April 2004

...having taken several road trips myself to cottage country, Niagara-on-the-Lake, and our nation's capital (Ottawa) in the last few months that included snow covered roads. I know exactly how you feel. As you cruise down the highway, passing all the slower cars and enjoying the view, you smile and think to youself...this is one great road car!

Let's hear from the other members about great (and maybe not so great) road trips they've taken recently with their 'Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans'.

jmess · April 2004

I wish I could take extended road trips in every car in this class. I am sure that everyone of them would be fun and offer something a little different from the others.

danny1878 · April 2004

Those driving manner are dangerous, no matter what, but not the car. TL is one of the highest safety rating car and TL is also capable of doing those, but do you really need that? challenging the unexpected? is it possible without endangering others?

I dont think any of these car in this category is considered as a sport car. do you?

blueguydotcom · April 2004

challenging the unexpected? is it possible without endangering others?

Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

I dont think any of these car in this category is considered as a sport car. do you?

Not many sports cars still made - Miata, 350z, RX-8, Vette and the rest are over 50k. So while not sports cars, we do have sports sedans - best of both worlds - room for 4 and the ability to cut loose and enjoy performance that was the air of only sports cars in the earl 90s.

280hp · April 2004

And here's mine :

1)Audi A4
2)Volvo S60 R
3)BMW330xi
4)Mercedes C320
5)Cadillac CTS
6)Jaguar X-Type
7)Saab 9-5
8)Infiniti G35
9)Lexus IS 300
10)Acura TL
11)Saab 9-3
12)Acura TSX
13)Volvo S60

Here's some of those not being discussed i would cross shop and consider :

VW Passat W8, Audi A6, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Maxima.

In fact, if i had to pick one, it would the Passat W8, cause it has some performance, some luxury, but most importantly, it says middle class suburbs.

shipo · April 2004

Hmmm, my definition if "Tramlining" is when you are driving on roads, primarily in California, that have parallel grooves cut in them for water relief so as to help prevent hydroplaning.

My definition of "Torque Steer" is when the driven front wheels take steering matters into their own hands when power is applied, especially during a turn or when the road surface is sloped.

When I described the phenomena on I-80, which is (relatively) smooth asphalt and has two ruts, one for the left tire and one for the right, I was referring to Torque Steer, at least according to my definition.

Best Regards,
Shipo

speedracer3 · April 2004

Definition: The annoying tendency of some front-wheel drive vehicles to pull to one side when engine torque is applied. In other words, you step on the gas and the car wants to steer right or left. By redesigning the power train to use equal length half shafts between the transaxle and wheels, the tendency towards torque steer can be greatly reduced. The other cure is to keep off the gas

danny1878 · April 2004

You are right, life is short, make a good use of it and dont waste it.

We do have sports sedan and I prefer the real sedan size(not the civic size sedan) with a lot of comforting features and great power. Thats what makes the car alive. The lifespan of a car is so short, enjoy it while you can. Cheers :-)

fedlawman · April 2004

My family and I are taking our Volvo V70 on a road trip to So Cal this summer...I am looking forward to the chance to stretch the Volvo's legs.

I just took a short road trip to Bellingham and back last week. Unfortunately, it was in my company car...a 2000 Chevy Lumina 3.1L. It's actually a very comfortable highway car - quiet, soft suspension, and soft seats. For commuting, it's actually more than adequate.

raher · April 2004

Highway 9 is the road to ride to B'ham. An enthusiasts delight.

fedlawman · April 2004

Yeah, I've spent some time on 9. Mostly down south near Monroe/Lake Stevens, but I have been up further around Sedro Wooley too.

I once read that one of the best roads in Washington is highway 11 (or is it 12) that goes from Mt Vernon to Fairhaven.

I drove it once last year when my wife and I went to La Conner for the weekend and it was a nice ride (sometimes gotta keep the pace down because of bicycles). Have you heard of it?

tlong · April 2004

I have a 1998 A4 2.8 (I know, previous model). Things I don't like about it:
- A bit too small, especially back seat w/kids
- Climate control fan is too noisy and not enough AC for the fan speed
- Not enough low end torque with 4WD

Things I like about the Audi:
- interior quality
- steering is impeccable
- Bose is excellent
- Shifter and clutch like butter

I drove a G35 6MT a few months ago for curiosity. Great engine and steering. Things I didn't like:
- Interior is only fair after having an Audi
- Steering - I drove about 70 mph around a sweeping freeway interchange ramp. There's a spot where the pavement changes and there's a 1/2-1 inch elevation difference. When I hit it in the G35 the steering wheel wanted to jerk out of my hand - THAT'S the sort of real-world handling I DON'T like! I tried the same spot and speed later in my A4 and there was virtually no 'kick' in the steering wheel. In conclusion, the interior and this steering behavior were enough to rule out the G35 for me.

I'm now looking at the TL. I drove an automatic and liked it quite a bit. I'm going to go check out the 6MT.

fedlawman · April 2004

Is this the first post of the next millenium?

fedlawman · April 2004

Or is it this one?

kahunah · April 2004

What size tires and wheels does your A4 have?

tlong · April 2004

I have the sport package and the tire size is 205/55 ZR 16. I originally had the Dunlop SP8000's. I then switched to Bridgestone Potenza RE940's, which I actually like less. They are very firm and noisier than the Dunlops (both Z-rated).

Clarification on my previous post: I liked the steering FEEL of the G35, but when hitting bumps while in a turn at high crusing speed (moderate amount of lateral G's), the steering jerked quite readily, while my A4 does not do that. Yet the A4 retains an excellent road feel, as does the G35.

raher · April 2004

Yes, I know the road from Mt. Vernon to Fairhaven. I have relatives in B'Ham and go there a lot. I live in Maltby just off of highway 9. I wouldn't recommend spirited driving on the road from Mt. Vernon to Fairhaven as there is a lot of slow traffic. As for bicycles..I am a cyclist myself so I appreciate anyone who looks out for me !

danny1878 · April 2004

As you cruise down the highway, passing all the slower cars and enjoying the view, you smile and think to youself...this is one great road car!

I know how you feel too kahunah, like you own the road. :-)

I dont go over speed limit thou, but I like it when someone try to test the car's acceleration, and they usually slow down(after they got the message), as I will too if they dont. (I know you know this)

Now I really enjoy turning on/off onto Ram but I always limit myself not to do that at night (I need to see the road clearly). Be safe is more important. Nothing can make me more happier than being inside this Car. :-)

dhanley · April 2004

I know exactly what you're talking about. It seems to me that that's part of the "german car" specialness. They provide good feedback while not exhibiting many of the foibles other performance cars posess. If all we want is leather, gadgets and lots of HP, we all have to feel bad about the $33K 5.7L GTO.

In the end, arguing that one luxury car bests another based on HP/$ is like telling me that _I_ should prefer brick cheese to brie because it's more cheese per dollar.

But, on topic, the best road trip i took for pure driving fun was driving from santa fe to taos. There's two routes, both gorgeous. Once, leaving taos there was a row of 20 cars all bumper to bumper climbing uphill at 25mph. I knew i'd never be able to pass the entire caravan on the windy road ahead. So i dropped to second, and passed 25 cars on a long uphill, redlining third at the end. It paid off; there was hardly any other cars on the road following that, and the twisties were great fun.

dave

bosoxin04 · April 2004

Tramlining seems to correlate strongly with tire tread patterns as well -- see any on-line tire store reviews of similarly sized high performance tires.

My own view is that FWD vs. RWD is not a factor in tramlining -- it's tire-related.

As for torque-steer in the TL, I've experienced a little bit of it in my two week old automatic (off-the-line, as others have noted), but it hasn't been problematic. Car and Driver has noted that torque steer is far more bothersome in the manual.

cjs2002 · April 2004

Its come down to the wire... with in the next 3 weeks now I plan on getting a new vehicle.. yet I've narrowed it down to these two cars. The Acura TL (w/o nav) and MB C class... there are things I like on both cars and things I dislike.. and I've come to the point where I don't know what else to do now... in my opinion the TLs interior is better than the Cs... but well the MB has some nice features like Tele Aid,maint minder (which tl has too but the mb is more indepth) and rain sensing winshield wipers and auto up and down for all for windows... yet the TL has the surround sound a first for cars... so what would you guys suggest anything else I should try and figure out between these two cars.... I'm thinkin there pretty much equal... only thing that bothers me about the mercedes really is that the C230 sport sedan is kinda underpowerd which can be remadeed by getting the manny (which I'm still learning how to drive) please help

speedracer3 · April 2004

I prefer the C-class, but if you care about reliability go with the Acura. MB is having TONS of quality issues lately. Unless you don't mind visiting your MB dealer often Acura is the answer. Two folks in my office own S-class MBs and there is always something wrong. They are getting rid of them.

Good luck!

blueguydotcom · April 2004

Acura is more reliable, better built, swifter, better handling and a better car all the way around for less money. A comparable C class will run far more than that TL's 34-35k. And you get a smaller, less agile, less powerful, less reliable car with the C.

Where's the problem?

cjs2002 · April 2004

yea but as my father would say a mercedes is a mercedes... I've heard of problems with reliability but my father seems to think thats not true ... I like the fact that its a mercedes.. and my uncle has one and has no problems with it... but I dont know... I've yet to hear anything serious about the TL minus the tires flat spotting but I'm changing those out anyways so I don't care... personally I like the TL better, even though that in my area I can get the MB with the same equipment or relatively close for the same price... yet when I say same price I'm taking the number from the TMV on the mercedes and comparing it to the MSRP on the TL and I know I'm not paying sticker for the TL so in my opinion the TL is comes out cheaper... I just don't want to make the wrong choice and be stuck with a car... also I plan on tinting the windows will it pose any problem with either car if I get them tinted? I want them tinted for summers ause it helps to keep the car cooler... thankx

sweetc230 · April 2004

From someone who has owned an '03 C230 sport sedan (6spd manual) for a little over one year, the C-class is CLEARLY the better choice. First of all, the RWD and sport suspension make the C class a better handling car (sorry TL/TSX lovers, but I am another "RWD or bust" kind of guy). Secondly, my car MSRP was 32K and I paid 31K for C2 package (rain sensor, power rear sunshade and power sunroof), 6 disc changer, heated seats and premium Bose system. IMO, the look of the C CLass is MUCH classier and all around better looking than the non descript Honda lineup; especially the sport sedans 17inch wheel/tire combo and side/front/rear skirting. And if cjs2002 can wait for the '05 MB cclass sport sedan the interior is far better looking than the '03 or '04. The TL interior is a nice piece, but it still screams Accord. And in the reliability department, my car has only been to the shop for it's one routine/free scheduled maintenance at 10K (I currently have 14K miles).

Honestly, cjs2002, you won't go wrong with either car, but the C CLass was an easy choice for me last January when I ordered mine. Even over the much loved G35 sedan. . . .IMO I just don't love the exterior or interior of the G. Now, the G35 coupe is the car I would LOVE to own, but my little 1 year old and his car seat were not a good match for that back seat.:(

Happy shopping!

dhanley · April 2004

Do you think the "refershed" C class interior is less good as well? They did just upgrade the c-class interior.

I don't know what i'd get if i were to pick between those. I'd try to live with each for a day ( traffic, shopping, highway ) and see how i felt after that.

Remember what some magazine or guy on the web tells you plays no role in your personal satisfaction.

dave

cjs2002 · April 2004

if for 05 the C230 was getting a power boost then yea I'd get it probably... when I drove the C it just seemed a tad sluggish. though I must commend it in the fact that its as tight and quite as a button.... this weekend I'm going to try and get the dealor ship to let me take each car out for a day and just drive them (don't care if its a loaner or what not just as long as I see how it drives... ) the acura and MB dealorships are right acrost the street from one another so it makes looking and comparing easier..its come down now to which one offers the features I like better both are great cars I just need to figure out what will suite me better now...

darnac · April 2004

I have a C240 with a 6-speed and 32,000 miles. The car is a little under powered for me and that is why I am on the G35 board thinking about a new car in about a year. I will say the reliability on my MB has not been too bad. The fuel gauge was about 2 gallons off and replaced (the sending unit) and the tape deck door would not open - the entire head unit was replaced. Everything under warranty. So that was 2 problems. If I bought a Japanese car I would expect 1 problem in 32,000 miles. The car is solid as brick - no squeeks or rattles at all. According to the last service my
brake pads are not even at 50% wear which is not bad cosidering 80% of my driving is in the city. The 6-speed can easily get 30 miles per gallon on the highway. I do wish the interior was a bit wider and like I said I want more power. However, whenever I see an officer around a blind bend with a radar gun I am glad I dont have the extra HP. Whatever I have I will use. You do really need to take both out on an extended drive. I have seen photos of the new C dash board and it looks much better.

cjs2002 · April 2004

yes I looked at the C230 mainly because it has a bit more umf behind it. when I test drove one I found it to be very quite and rifined yet I had the dealorship guy with me so I wasn't able to actually consintrate because he kept yappin... I'm going to go with my father this weekend and drive both cars for an extended time maybe take one out for the day. my dad refuses to let dealers come with us so he's comming with me this weekend to take a look... and finally make a decision between the two cars

blueguydotcom · April 2004

I just don't want to make the wrong choice and be stuck with a car

Roll the dice. Cars are a lousy purchase anyway. Which ever one stirs the soul is the one to buy, IMHO. I bought a BMW - and that was after my horrendous experience with another German car - knowing it'd be a poorly built vehicle. It hasn't been as shoddy as my Jetta but my BMW's certainly not as well made as my last Japanese car - a dowdy, but solid 91 Nissan Stanza. Still, my Bimmer is fun and makes me smile, regardless of the trips to the dealer. If it were out of warranty...it'd be for sale.

darnac · April 2004

Yes, I will sell my MB before warranty goes bye-bye. If repairs are coming out of my pocket I will not own a German car. I am too cheap.

pg48477 · April 2004

If you taking MT C230 might have enof power but not with AT. In my mind TL is a better car, it handles just as good as RWD C230, has more power better trany (6MT), and the car cost much less. MB does look classy but I would wait when I'm 40 to take classy car like that.

cjs2002 · April 2004

I plan to get my windows tinted (mainly to reduce heat in the summer) my question is, will tinting the windows mess with any systems of the car... I know the MB has the rain sensing windshield wipers but I don't know if it would affect that or not... and how bout the TL will it affect any of its systems... though I don't think the one w/o nav has anything that it would affect but I'm not sure... any one know?

seekperfectcar · April 2004

Geez,

I came here to learn about the G35x as I'm considering buying one. You know, it's from Infiniti, all wheel drive! Is the NAV any good? Any experiences to talk about? After flipping back four pages I've read about every car EXCEPT the G35.

Anyone know where that forum is? <grin>

wco81 · April 2004

You seem really focused on the frills.

Maybe you should look into which one has better safety record because while you're futzing with the auto winshield wipers or the nav., you might get into trouble.

cjs2002 · April 2004

not looking for any with the nav... nor do I really care about the auto wipers... yet I must admit their cool... I just don't want to do anything that may lead to an infamous trip to dealorship... I wish to try and avoid going to the dealorship for anything I might cause ...

sawyerjon · April 2004

yea but as my father would say a mercedes is a mercedes...

Nothing could be further from the truth. don't worry about what Daddy thinks (unless he's footing the bill)

A 3 pointed star emblem does not automatically make it a great car, unless you just like the idea of having a "Benz", if that's the case welcome to poser city

kahunah · April 2004

I second that!

cjs2002 - You should also be concerned at the fact that not one Mercedes model is recommended by Consumer Reports...not a one! All the models have predicted reliability ratings that are either fair or poor.

speedracer3 · April 2004

Another thing. You can spend $80K Mercedes and if there is a warranty repair they RENT you a car if your MB needs to stay for a few days. No MB loaners (at least none here in the S.Florida dealers). Lexus gives you a Lexus loaner, Jag gives you a Jag, Audi gives you an Audi. I think it is nuts.

qbrozen · April 2004

here, let me help you out:
Infinity G35

sweetc230 · April 2004

I spent 31K for my Benz and I rec'd a Benz loaner when I dropped off my car for my one scheduled maint. Not sure why that is happening in your neck of the woods.

gpwatfrd · April 2004

speedracer3
In NJ all of the Mercedes dealers I have dealt with give you either a C240 or ML350

cjs2002
I have tinted the windows on several cars. They have a tint which keeps the car cooler than your regular tint you would find in the store. I don't know the type but ask the place who will install it if they are familiar. I have had every type of vehicle you could imagine tinted from Infiniti,Lexus,Mercedes,Ford,etc... Never had a problem.

pat · April 2004

Hi there. From your question, I'm guessing that you are using the Make/Model search tools to display discussions that involve the G35 and perhaps misunderstanding your results.

This "Entry Level Performance Sedans" discussion is about a number of vehicles - you can read pat Mar 19, 2004 6:34 to see the list.

Our discussions get "categorized" based on what they are about. Since this discussion includes the G35, that vehicle is one of the categories, and that means when you list discussions that include the G35, this one shows up. But it doesn't mean that the only subject here is the G35.

I hope this helps explain things, but if not, feel free to drop me an email.

Oh, and it seems that qbrozen's link goes to messages that are a couple of years old - here is a link that will get you to the current messages: Infiniti G35.

(Thanks qbrozen - you have to drop the "/###" at the end of a link in order to get to the current posts.)

speedracer3 · April 2004

Not sure why that is happening in your neck of the woods.

Me neither, they must not have enough MBs to give out, maybe they sell too many?. MB Dealers here in S. Florida have an rental car places right in the dealerships. <shrug>

wco81 · April 2004

Do they still use film and then manually apply it with some kind of adhesive?

Becuase back in the day when I had it done, the thing started to bubble horribly in 3 or 4 years.

It was the worst on hatchbacks because the back hatch faced the sun more directly. Side windows didn't have as much of a problem.

So the $200-300 they charge you doesn't seem like a good deal.

The factory tint jobs must put the tinting inside the glass or something because they don't seem to have the bubbling problem.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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